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On March 21 2011 08:11 mastergriggy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:38 RedDragon571 wrote:
Morrows baneling use:
1. Wasn't an all in, he was on more than one base and had the larve capacity to drone up more.
2. In game 1, sniping the tech lab and delaying stim would have been completely worth it.
3. killing 3 rax is a big deal and delays pushes longer by delaying production and destroys a mineral sink for T.
4. You can just retreat your mass of speedlings if things didn't go well.
5. Morrow was using specific numbers of banelings in order to get the barracks down to very low burning hp. (this created a dilemma for Jinro, having 3 burning rax with not enough time to repair, but creating a 2 layer wall across that large of an area would have been more expensive and delayed jinro's timings.)
6. If Morrow had scouted that the bane bust wouldn't have done damage he could have retreated, these units will be useful later also.
7.game 2, 2 rax did so much dmg, morrow was behind the whole time. He retreated baneling pressure.
8. Is there anything wrong with punishing a bad wall? If a protoss or terran didn't block off would it really be stupid to swarm his base with speedlings? (theres a reason it's standard to make a wall, bad walls should be punished!)
1. It was an all in. The definition of an all in isn't how many bases you have. Morrow cut drones to make banelings. Had it failed, he would have lost. 2. Throwing away everything you have is not worth one tech lab researching stim. Morrow needed to (and did) do more damage. 3. I can sort of agree with this, although I think Jinro had started teching up at this point. 4. If you lose half your army, you still lose half your army. Doesn't matter if you retreat or not. 5. Wat? 6. Cutting drones for banelings is not as good as drones. They are way less useful. 7. again Wat? 8. There is nothing wrong wiht punishing a bad wall. Bad Walls should be punished. But banelings all in don't always work. Had Jinro known the attack/banelings were coming, I'm sure he would have handled the situation better.
I'm not saying it was or wasn't an all-in, but why did morrow make at least 4 drones (what I could see) in the third game before he attacked? Apparently he can't have agreed he was all-in or those 4 drones would have been zerglings no?
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On March 21 2011 07:31 Warrior Madness wrote:
Wow who can stop MC now? I can't believe Huk and Jinro are out this early on. Koreans are falling.
Jinro I can understand, but since when has HuK ever had a chance against the BossToss? His PvP has never really impressed me, and I'm pretty sure ManZenith is the only person who's ever taken a game off MC in that matchup.
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I'm getting tired of this X build takes more 'skill' than Y's Zero Skill Build. Where X is the loser and Y is the winner. What is this 'skill' you speak of? Macro is NOT skill. Much harder than Macro is micro. And much harder than micro is multitasking micro ( Stork <3 ) It seems everytime a player punishes a greedy build the n00bs in here start hating because the 'skillfull macro player' lost. l2p and stop hating scrubs.
GJ Morrow, although I was rooting for Jinro
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On March 21 2011 08:27 arterian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:24 Dawn11 wrote:
after game 2 huk vs hasu
husky was like: well we clearly saw that huk is the better player over all
i was like: wtf?!?!
then few minutes later
husky was like: well that was an upset
i was like: hrhrhrhr I'd say both games Huk lost was to mistakes by him, not really great play by Hasu. First game he lost a lot of units pointlessly, and the third game he lost because he didnt scout his base.
g1: try to not lose units to blinkstalkers. Huk didnt micro well @ his 4 gate attempt, hasus blinkmicro was brilliant, he even expoed and still could defend the colossipush by huk.
g2 was pretty well played by huk during the midgame, controlling tons of groups at the same time with huge immortalcount - even though hasuobs didnt lose many stalkers by controlling them quite good as well. still, huk got the better end of the midgame clunch and was able to expo earlier / with higher probecount. hasuobs microed better in the final fight, which he lost with a much worse army due to huks amazing midgame.
g3 was outsmarted - huk doesnt scout his base cause of hasuobs probe movements. not the first time i see that move from hasu btw 
all in all both have incredible micro - but huk's one is more flawed, since he does mayor mistakes sometimes. I likes HuK's roboplay a bit better strategically.
A great pvp between 2 even players (in this matchup), that couldve gone either way.
HuK might be the better player atm, since PvP is most likely his worst matchup and hasus 2nd. But you gotta know, that HuK trains 24/7 in korea, while Hasuobs has a girlfriend and studys.
Even more amazing what he can pull off imo.
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I find it funny that all the noobs are whining about cheeze and all in. It was a very, very efficient response to CC-first, 3 rax wall, which took full advantage of the lack of tech from Jinro.
It doesn't matter if it was a low-eco build, it had very little chances of NOT working (jinro needed 3+ bunkers behind the wall in order to stand a chance).
If you disagree, then consider the fact that it worked TWICE. If you get cought by surprise once, that's fair enough, if you get raped by it twice in the same hour, then you need to do better in defending against it.
It's not CHEESE, it's a HARD COUNTER to Jinro's BO.
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On March 21 2011 08:38 PuercoPop wrote:
I'm getting tired of this X build takes more 'skill' than Y's Zero Skill Build. Where X is the loser and Y is the winner. What is this 'skill' you speak of? Macro is NOT skill. Much harder than Macro is micro. And much harder than micro is multitasking micro ( Stork <3 ) It seems everytime a player punishes a greedy build the n00bs in here start hating because the 'skillfull macro player' lost. l2p and stop hating scrubs.
GJ Morrow, although I was rooting for Jinro
another thing is that they have do not know about morrow being a "skillful macro player" himself^^
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On March 21 2011 08:36 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:31 Warrior Madness wrote:
Wow who can stop MC now? I can't believe Huk and Jinro are out this early on. Koreans are falling. Jinro I can understand, but since when has HuK ever had a chance against the BossToss? His PvP has never really impressed me, and I'm pretty sure ManZenith is the only person who's ever taken a game off MC in that matchup.
A healthy Mvp is just as good, if not better than MC. Here's to hoping he's out of his little downslide.
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On March 21 2011 08:24 Dawn11 wrote:
after game 2 huk vs hasu
husky was like: well we clearly saw that huk is the better player over all
i was like: wtf?!?!
then few minutes later
husky was like: well that was an upset
i was like: hrhrhrhr
Well, everything Husky says is based on his superficial knowledge of SC2, the players and maps but most of all -- and in this he's very good at -- in what the majority of fans want to hear.
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It seems to me the definitions of "all-in" and "cheese" have developed more than the meta-game of SC2 itself since the beta.
These terms went from describing a few specific types of play to now basically everything that someone doesn't like done to a player they wanted to win. I've seen this over the past few weeks where basically anything short of a 20 minute 3 base game fall into one of those categories.
An all-in is a play that should leave you not just behind, but basically done. Staying 1 base for long periods of time while your opponent expands running out of minerals, pulling all scvs, etc. fall into this category. Cutting worker units isn't an all-in. It is a risk, and a risk that can certainly leave you far behind but you could recover(even if just a slight chance). An all in means you have to win with that play or you are finished. That is the very nature of an all-in, implying ALL IS IN you have nothing left to fall back on.
Can we please develop some other terms to describe play so that everything doesn't fall into one of two categories, cheese or all in? Because it is getting pretty annoying that these specific words are now applied to every game ever played.
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I like that Morrow picked up zerg so well, even though it means Jinro is out already.
Also Hasuobs showed who is the boss as he crushed the over-confident Huk.
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On March 21 2011 08:27 arterian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:24 Dawn11 wrote:
after game 2 huk vs hasu
husky was like: well we clearly saw that huk is the better player over all
i was like: wtf?!?!
then few minutes later
husky was like: well that was an upset
i was like: hrhrhrhr I'd say both games Huk lost was to mistakes by him, not really great play by Hasu. First game he lost a lot of units pointlessly, and the third game he lost because he didnt scout his base.
Exactly, so HuK was the worse player in this series
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On March 21 2011 08:41 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:24 Dawn11 wrote:
after game 2 huk vs hasu
husky was like: well we clearly saw that huk is the better player over all
i was like: wtf?!?!
then few minutes later
husky was like: well that was an upset
i was like: hrhrhrhr Well, everything Husky says is based on his superficial knowledge of SC2, the players and maps but most of all -- and in this he's very good at -- in what the majority of fans want to hear.
Imagine the witchhunt that would have occurred had he suggested otherwise...
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Why oh why are terrans complaining about Jinro's loss? You kept bashing zerg when they complained about hatch first being destroyed and now you whine, just like they did about CC first being annihilated? This is actually fun.
In the end, if the build is so economically viable and can actually be defended then there will be someone to find a way to do it. For now baneling bust hard counters it. Some day it will be just a counter.
Nice games no matter, Morrow outplayed Jinro, SC2 isn't all about macro games ... fortunately, it's about micro, macro and meta and with everything in mind Morrow was the better player today.
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On March 21 2011 08:41 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:36 Ezekyle wrote:On March 21 2011 07:31 Warrior Madness wrote:
Wow who can stop MC now? I can't believe Huk and Jinro are out this early on. Koreans are falling. Jinro I can understand, but since when has HuK ever had a chance against the BossToss? His PvP has never really impressed me, and I'm pretty sure ManZenith is the only person who's ever taken a game off MC in that matchup. A healthy Mvp is just as good, if not better than MC. Here's to hoping he's out of his little downslide.
A healthy Mvp lost to Squirtle in what apparently started his slump.. But seriously his slump is more a result of the new GSL maps. So far, no terran has been able to devise a good standard build capable to go toe-to-toe against toss in a large map with relatively small choke points, most are winning -- when they do -- in base trade scenarios and early harassment.
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I cant believe people are whining about cheese, Morrow did an superb job at punishing Jinros greedy play. He simply played better and did what he was supposed to, how is this a cheese?!
If you see a build you know the exact counter to, woulndt YOU do the same? Morrow deserved the win.
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On March 21 2011 08:30 duckducktiM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:21 1Eris1 wrote:
Glad HuK is out. So tired of him being overhyped. And before people respond, it isn't PvP being a die roll. Good microers like MC, Kiwi, etc win the majority of their PvP games. lol you say huk being over hyped.. i understand him not being as good as MC, but then you say kiwi is better than him, FAIL lol
No where did I say kiwikaki was better then HuK. I just said he does better at PvP then HuK, which is a matchup based on control. HuK's macro/decision making is probably better, but he doesn't quite have the control to compare to the top players.
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people here dont seem to understand that either u go 15 hatch or 1 base roach vs 2rax everything else loses so its a rigged build
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Id say Jinro lost the game rather than Morrow winning it, with a different, less greedy opening, Jinro would have been fine, he simply needed tanks or sacrificial buildings, i dont know many players that can hold off a baneling bust with mass marines and no bunkers.
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I really don´t know why Jinro hadn´t researched Siege tech in Game 3.
Could some "pro" explain it.
Even with Roach tech they are still usefull,especially given that wall-in
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On March 21 2011 08:46 DonaldLee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:41 s4life wrote:On March 21 2011 08:24 Dawn11 wrote:
after game 2 huk vs hasu
husky was like: well we clearly saw that huk is the better player over all
i was like: wtf?!?!
then few minutes later
husky was like: well that was an upset
i was like: hrhrhrhr Well, everything Husky says is based on his superficial knowledge of SC2, the players and maps but most of all -- and in this he's very good at -- in what the majority of fans want to hear. Imagine the witchhunt that would have occurred had he suggested otherwise...
It's all fine and dandy, except for those cases in which what the majority of fans want to hear does not correspond to an objective reality. The world would be better if people sometimes would stand on their own feet at the cost of losing something rather than lick the boots of their master all the time.
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EPT
