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On March 21 2011 07:42 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote:
I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.
But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.
Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.
This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).
Pretty much sums up the problem I have with the fact that Z gets a "free" FE. I hear people talking about how nicely Morrow punished Jinro for doing a FE, but they all fail to mention that it is impossible for T to really punish (as in: win the game right here or deal a decisive blow) a Zerg doing a FE without resorting to some kind of bunker rush cheese (which, if it fails, will cost you). Basically T is on the back foot from early on, especially on these larger maps. As far as I know, a FE should be a calculated risk. As it is now, it is calculated, but not that much of a risk at all. In case of TvZ it's mainly because reapers got nerfed into oblivion. Reapers were basically the only terran unit that could really punish a Z for doing something as risky as a FE.
Getting a second hatchery for Zerg is not necessarily a "fast expand." For Zerg, a hatchery is both a center to collect resources, AND a production facility. It is both equivalent to getting additional barracks early once you have enough SCVs to support it, and to expanding. But really, the important thing to note with Zerg is that making drones is what makes it a full expansion, not just making a hatchery.
It is well within a Terran's capacity to limit the Zerg's ability to make drones on any map in any circumstance. They have all of the best harass units in the game minus the mutalisk and a much superior ability to limit scouting than the Zerg does. At any time after getting an orbital Jinro can scan Morrow to see his drone saturation and even if he doesn't see the baneling bust, he can know it's coming just as a Zerg player needs to make inferences and reads based on incomplete information against Terran or Protoss.
For Terran or Protoss, having a second CC/Nexus means they can make 2 workers at once, all the time, no matter what. Having two hatcheries does NOT mean that for Zerg. Pressure from hellions or banshees, or hell marines, can force larva to be used on zerglings and bring parity to the situation. Nevertheless, everyone agrees that Zerg strategically needs an economic advantage to be a wholly even footing with a Terran or Protoss. Thus, to consider Zerg's ability to build a 2nd hatchery more safely than Terran or Protoss is not an imbalance, but a feature of balance. If Zerg needed an economic advantage, and could not expand easily, it'd be an even more frustrating race to play than it is.
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Oh my god, am I seeing this right? MC vs White-Ra in R16 !? That is going to be insane!!!
EDIT: And the winner might face Tyler in R8 ?!?!?! TSL3 makes all Protoss dreams come true!
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lol, MorroW remind me of his 5 Rax reaper, which was also cheesy as hell.
But anyway player does anything to take the win, and still don't understand why the hell Jinro made medivac instead of siege tank when he's in macro and defend mode. Completely wrong.
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Instead of whining about baneling busts, I'm just going to come out and say this: In game 2 was Jinro in super saiyan mode or something? That bunker rush didn't win him the game, but it certainly did give him the lead. What clearly won the game was marine micro on the level of MVP. Those splits were completely sick.
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So, anyway, what I want to know is.
How is CC first a superior build to 1Rax Expo, and why would Jinro use this build at all (let alone the obvious reason that he shouldn't have used it a second time after being hard-countered without at least expecting the same followup).
1Rax Expo~
Pros: Denies scouting, Gets faster OC
Cons: Slower 2nd OC
CC First~
Pros: Faster 2nd CC
Cons: Scoutable, Easy to hard counter, Slower OC
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i just read the last two pages with a big smile on my face - why?
because i knew before the games even started, that the ro32 will not be so onesided as the polls (so the majority) show us ;-)
the second reason i am smiling like for 3 hours now is that i knew that so many guys are going to FREAK out about those "upsets" and will blame it all on lags/cheese or imbalance
so keep arguing about that i keep smiling ;-)
Edit: Congrats on all players that manage to advance to the round of 16 you have deserved it!
btw: team mousesports 2 - team liquid 1
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On March 21 2011 07:56 shinosai wrote:
Instead of whining about baneling busts, I'm just going to come out and say this: In game 2 was Jinro in super saiyan mode or something? That bunker rush didn't win him the game, but it certainly did give him the lead. What clearly won the game was marine micro on the level of MVP. Those splits were completely sick.
Totally agreed, when morrow caught those tanks unsieged and at the front with speeds I just thought "oh jinro...", only to see him split like 60 marines in 20 different directions and annihilate the banes. That was so sick..
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Wow my favourite thing about the TSL so far is definetally seeing the korean players playing against foreigners! keep it up TSL team and teamliquid!
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On March 21 2011 07:55 Deso wrote:
Oh my god, am I seeing this right? MC vs White-Ra in R16 !? That is going to be insane!!!
EDIT: And the winner might face Tyler in R8 ?!?!?! TSL3 makes all Protoss dreams come true!
dreams come true would be all three of them having no part in any PvP =x
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On March 21 2011 07:37 Marooned wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 06:51 mastergriggy wrote:On March 21 2011 06:46 TheHova wrote:On March 21 2011 06:43 JoeSchmoe wrote:On March 21 2011 06:41 Marooned wrote:
I don't understand why so many is bashing Morrow for doing the right thing. If you just leave a terran alone to cc first like that the mule design will put you as a zerg in a terrible spot. You cant just drone hard and take a fast third either because the potential of 6+ rax worth of marines could be on the way any second, or super fast tech of 4 gasses. It wasn't as fun to watch as I expected, but still Morrow did the right thing. Jinro did the right thing by bunker rushing in the second game. The placement caught Morrow with his pants down, and that was the game. Same thing. Greed should be punishable, or else its just stupid. Some say Morrow almost came back when running over those unseiged tanks, but it didn't really matter, he was still way behind. the point was morrow doing the same thing all 3 games. It wasn't a response to anything he just tries to baneling bust every game. CC first? baneling bust. 2-rax opening? baneling bust. Do you really think MorroW has got to the level he is at just by doing baneling busts every game ? I suggest you watch some more of his games. I don't even... All three of his games he did the same strategy. So even though you tried to make him feel stupid, he has a point. The issue, however, isn't what Morrow did or how many times he did it, but that Jinro couldn't hold it. Perhaps in the future Jinro will utilize different openings that aren't as susceptible. Or alternatively, keep a marine at the bottom of his ramp? I don't know, there were a lot of counters to it, but Jinro for the most part didn't look to see it coming. One of the same issues Huk had in his last game. He was way behind in game 2, so he had to try. Is it frowned upon for trying? What other options did he have? With the tech he had to work with it was a baneling bust, witch he didn't even go through with. I've seen a few of Morrow's games, and I can't recall seeing one baneling bust in the past. The opportunity presented itself in g1 and g3. And it was Jinro who presented Morrow that opportunity, so he took it. Game 2 was just a desperate effort to try to come back into the game after the horrible start. I have much love for Jinro's play, and I got really disappointed by the games as well. But I dont see the reasoning behind flaming a great player like Morrow for doing what he did.. Guess there will allways be different opinions, and we need to live with that. And emotions are flowing, but why the hate and downtalk?
I haven't flamed him one time? Maybe you can provide an example of me doing that? In fact, multiple times in the thread I have congratulated morrow.
As far as the whole doing the same thing every game, the fact is, he did it all three games. Blind or scouted. Ahead or Behind, he did the same thing every game. If you are trying to say he was just trying, he was on the right track by taking the gold, not throwing away his army against a position he couldn't take.
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On March 21 2011 07:55 Deso wrote:
Oh my god, am I seeing this right? MC vs White-Ra in R16 !? That is going to be insane!!!
EDIT: And the winner might face Tyler in R8 ?!?!?! TSL3 makes all Protoss dreams come true!
You kidding? This means we're going to see PvP's..... plus we won't get to see White-ra play anymore after his match with MC 
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Uhm. I haven't watched the games yet but I thought the general smart idea behind a 14 CC was to get a really quick siege tank out? Going pure mineral units, just seems really risky.
14 Hatch for Zerg isn't the same thing because it's not just a FE, it's getting a production building up. You can't hold any early agression with one hatchery
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On March 21 2011 08:01 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:56 shinosai wrote:
Instead of whining about baneling busts, I'm just going to come out and say this: In game 2 was Jinro in super saiyan mode or something? That bunker rush didn't win him the game, but it certainly did give him the lead. What clearly won the game was marine micro on the level of MVP. Those splits were completely sick. Totally agreed, when morrow caught those tanks unsieged and at the front with speeds I just thought "oh jinro...", only to see him split like 60 marines in 20 different directions and annihilate the banes. That was so sick..
His micro is actually incredible, just like MC once said, "early game chobo, late game gosu". I think that pretty much describes today. Once he can get his tech up enough to be able to survive the baneling timing attack, his macro and micro is so formidable compared to anyone else on the foreign scene.
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@ the people saying Jinro was playing standard and that he was abused in his pursuit of a fair macro end game.
The maps have been out for like a month, there is no standard. These progamers are feeling out the maps just like everyone else. It's ridiculous to think that the first heavy economic build that Jinro conceives on a new map should be a golden ticket to the late-game and that any early aggression against it is a travesty.
@ the people saying Jinro is X times better than Morrow(I think I've read anywhere from 10 times to 100 times in this thread?)
If Jinro felt like Morrow was such a scrub, why didn't he play it safe and ride his superior mechanics and decision making to an easy victory? Obviously Jinro felt as though Morrow was a strong opponent(with good reason it would seem) that warranted some riskier play.
Now I think it's time for your nap, you're getting cranky.
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Huk hwaiting
omg HUK lost?
Oh nooooooo!!!!
omg
Now its up to Nony
Gogogogo
yeeeeeee
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On March 21 2011 07:52 PlaGuE_R wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:45 Qaatar wrote:On March 21 2011 07:40 PlaGuE_R wrote:On March 21 2011 07:36 Qaatar wrote:On March 21 2011 07:32 PlaGuE_R wrote:On March 21 2011 07:28 Qaatar wrote:On March 21 2011 07:26 PlaGuE_R wrote:
please stop bringing july zerg into this, that guy is terrible plain and simple. he got to the finals through an easy bracket by stringing 6 pools and all ins and got facerolled the second he faced an opponent that doesnt crumble to all ins.
Wow, troll much? I don't think I should even dignify such a bad blatant troll attempt with a response. -_- because you'd rather attribute the fact that he got facerolled by MC to imbalance rather then the fact that he plainly is bad at sc2, regardless of how good he was at BW Except he played almost the exact same way in BW as he is now, with the only difference that BW was a MUCH more balanced and skill oriented game in the two eras that he did well in (Oov + Savior/pre-JD). I did not mention imbalance or hint at imbalance anywhere in my post...so...keep on trolling I guess? thanks, you just mentioned balance now. You didn't have to say it for me to know that's exactly the excuse you wanted. And maybe July used that style in BW but this is a different game and the same style doesnt work in both games. July is just not as good as you make him out to be. For example, Nestea is 10 times better then July and im sure GSL finals would have been much more entertaining had it been MC v Nestea No, see...the issue I had was you saying July is " terrible plain and simple." That's total bullshit, no matter how you rationalize it. Balance is also a pretty objective fact when comparing the metagame of 2005-2008 to the metagame of SC2 right now. However, I wasn't talking about PvZ specifically, just the GENERAL state of the game when talking about "balance." Therefore, no, I wasn't mentioning "imbalance" in the same connotation that you implied. MC is a better player at SC2 than July...so? Doesn't make July "terrible" or 10x the inferior player to NesTea, now does it? lol.... how is that bullshit? cuz he made it to the finals? yeah so did TSL_Rain who was pretty bad as well. July showed no 'great' play, no clide vs leenock game 3, no jinro vs mc where Jinro meched. Just baneling busts and other crappy builds agaisnt players that couldn't handle it. Then he 'created a new style!' to play MC and got absolutely facerolled.
Wait, seriously, you think July is terrible? Are you trolling? And if you are not trolling please give your definition of terrible, because I think we might be having a communication problem on that word.
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Can someone help me out here, i'm not sure about what I see.
During the second game, it seemed that during the bunker rush, Jinro actually managed to salvage that bunker. It looked like Morrow sent the zerglings back to kill the marines in order to protect the queen, and the bunker was salvaged while burning.
Now since the casters did not mention it, i cannot be sure of it. But if so, that would be a damn impressive move, and a shame the casters missed it.
And during the third game, at the very beginning, it seemed like Morrow moved a drone towards his third while the scouting scv was passing by. Wasn't he trying to make Jinro think he was taking his second expansion ?
Anyone saw that too, or is my mind playing me ?
Edit : also at the end of game 3. Morrow did not make only zerglings, at one point he stopped and had actually something like 12 drones in production. I think Jinro gg'd 1 minute later
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On March 21 2011 08:09 phyK wrote:
will there be VODs anywhere?
Uh oh it's VOD request time. Yes, similarly to day 1, they will be up, it just takes some time to encode and upload them. Check the official TL.net youtube page for them.
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On March 21 2011 07:38 RedDragon571 wrote:
Morrows baneling use:
1. Wasn't an all in, he was on more than one base and had the larve capacity to drone up more.
2. In game 1, sniping the tech lab and delaying stim would have been completely worth it.
3. killing 3 rax is a big deal and delays pushes longer by delaying production and destroys a mineral sink for T.
4. You can just retreat your mass of speedlings if things didn't go well.
5. Morrow was using specific numbers of banelings in order to get the barracks down to very low burning hp. (this created a dilemma for Jinro, having 3 burning rax with not enough time to repair, but creating a 2 layer wall across that large of an area would have been more expensive and delayed jinro's timings.)
6. If Morrow had scouted that the bane bust wouldn't have done damage he could have retreated, these units will be useful later also.
7.game 2, 2 rax did so much dmg, morrow was behind the whole time. He retreated baneling pressure.
8. Is there anything wrong with punishing a bad wall? If a protoss or terran didn't block off would it really be stupid to swarm his base with speedlings? (theres a reason it's standard to make a wall, bad walls should be punished!)
1. It was an all in. The definition of an all in isn't how many bases you have. Morrow cut drones to make banelings. Had it failed, he would have lost.
2. Throwing away everything you have is not worth one tech lab researching stim. Morrow needed to (and did) do more damage.
3. I can sort of agree with this, although I think Jinro had started teching up at this point.
4. If you lose half your army, you still lose half your army. Doesn't matter if you retreat or not.
5. Wat?
6. Cutting drones for banelings is not as good as drones. They are way less useful.
7. again Wat?
8. There is nothing wrong wiht punishing a bad wall. Bad Walls should be punished. But banelings all in don't always work. Had Jinro known the attack/banelings were coming, I'm sure he would have handled the situation better.
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EPT
