On March 21 2011 07:26 PlaGuE_R wrote: please stop bringing july zerg into this, that guy is terrible plain and simple. he got to the finals through an easy bracket by stringing 6 pools and all ins and got facerolled the second he faced an opponent that doesnt crumble to all ins.
Wow, troll much? I don't think I should even dignify such a bad blatant troll attempt with a response. -_-
because you'd rather attribute the fact that he got facerolled by MC to imbalance rather then the fact that he plainly is bad at sc2, regardless of how good he was at BW
Except he played almost the exact same way in BW as he is now, with the only difference that BW was a MUCH more balanced and skill oriented game in the two eras that he did well in (Oov + Savior/pre-JD).
I did not mention imbalance or hint at imbalance anywhere in my post...so...keep on trolling I guess?
On March 21 2011 07:31 Doppelganger wrote: Thorzain pointed out that there is a huge vulnerability in an 14 cc build that he just was told an hour before the game. So I think we see the development of SC right before our eyes. Just one day later and 14 cc is no longer viable. I do not believe that this is some blind play, or coinflip! It is the natural development of SC 2.
ThorZaIN double fast expoed.
Sure he did but he also started with a 14 CC. And I think the same banelingbust would've brought him down
On March 21 2011 06:41 Marooned wrote: I don't understand why so many is bashing Morrow for doing the right thing. If you just leave a terran alone to cc first like that the mule design will put you as a zerg in a terrible spot. You cant just drone hard and take a fast third either because the potential of 6+ rax worth of marines could be on the way any second, or super fast tech of 4 gasses. It wasn't as fun to watch as I expected, but still Morrow did the right thing. Jinro did the right thing by bunker rushing in the second game. The placement caught Morrow with his pants down, and that was the game. Same thing. Greed should be punishable, or else its just stupid. Some say Morrow almost came back when running over those unseiged tanks, but it didn't really matter, he was still way behind.
the point was morrow doing the same thing all 3 games. It wasn't a response to anything he just tries to baneling bust every game. CC first? baneling bust. 2-rax opening? baneling bust.
Do you really think MorroW has got to the level he is at just by doing baneling busts every game ? I suggest you watch some more of his games. I don't even...
All three of his games he did the same strategy. So even though you tried to make him feel stupid, he has a point.
The issue, however, isn't what Morrow did or how many times he did it, but that Jinro couldn't hold it. Perhaps in the future Jinro will utilize different openings that aren't as susceptible. Or alternatively, keep a marine at the bottom of his ramp? I don't know, there were a lot of counters to it, but Jinro for the most part didn't look to see it coming. One of the same issues Huk had in his last game.
He was way behind in game 2, so he had to try. Is it frowned upon for trying? What other options did he have? With the tech he had to work with it was a baneling bust, witch he didn't even go through with. I've seen a few of Morrow's games, and I can't recall seeing one baneling bust in the past. The opportunity presented itself in g1 and g3. And it was Jinro who presented Morrow that opportunity, so he took it. Game 2 was just a desperate effort to try to come back into the game after the horrible start. I have much love for Jinro's play, and I got really disappointed by the games as well. But I dont see the reasoning behind flaming a great player like Morrow for doing what he did.. Guess there will allways be different opinions, and we need to live with that. And emotions are flowing, but why the hate and downtalk?
On March 21 2011 06:40 MYM.ClouD wrote: Baneling bust off 2 bases is absolutely retarded and overpowered against any FE build who doesn't include fast hellions or fast siege tanks (which is a shit build anyway except for holding and punishing baneling bust). It turns the early game into a coinflip. People calling Morrow "hyper aggressive" or thinking he played well are wrong because anyone, even a silver league player, can pull it off. This just shows how this game is too much about chances and all in and not as skill centered as WC3 and SCBW. I'm very disappointed at SC2.
User was warned for this post
You're wrong...
As FruitDealer found out yesterday and Thorzain showed...Terrans who FE need to be punished early otherwise Zerg needs to grab bases even quicker (atleast 2 bases in quick succession) than normal but will always be behind just because of the power of Mules for an economy...
1. Wasn't an all in, he was on more than one base and had the larve capacity to drone up more. 2. In game 1, sniping the tech lab and delaying stim would have been completely worth it. 3. killing 3 rax is a big deal and delays pushes longer by delaying production and destroys a mineral sink for T. 4. You can just retreat your mass of speedlings if things didn't go well. 5. Morrow was using specific numbers of banelings in order to get the barracks down to very low burning hp. (this created a dilemma for Jinro, having 3 burning rax with not enough time to repair, but creating a 2 layer wall across that large of an area would have been more expensive and delayed jinro's timings.) 6. If Morrow had scouted that the bane bust wouldn't have done damage he could have retreated, these units will be useful later also. 7.game 2, 2 rax did so much dmg, morrow was behind the whole time. He retreated baneling pressure. 8. Is there anything wrong with punishing a bad wall? If a protoss or terran didn't block off would it really be stupid to swarm his base with speedlings? (theres a reason it's standard to make a wall, bad walls should be punished!)
On March 21 2011 07:31 Doppelganger wrote: Thorzain pointed out that there is a huge vulnerability in an 14 cc build that he just was told an hour before the game. So I think we see the development of SC right before our eyes. Just one day later and 14 cc is no longer viable. I do not believe that this is some blind play, or coinflip! It is the natural development of SC 2.
ThorZaIN double fast expoed.
Sure he did but he also started with a 14 CC. And I think the same banelingbust would've brought him down
Yes, but double expanding is a LOT more risky than what Jinro did. As ClouD so eloquently explained earlier, Jinro could have transitioned into blue flame hellions and held the bust.
On March 21 2011 07:31 Doppelganger wrote: Thorzain pointed out that there is a huge vulnerability in an 14 cc build that he just was told an hour before the game. So I think we see the development of SC right before our eyes. Just one day later and 14 cc is no longer viable. I do not believe that this is some blind play, or coinflip! It is the natural development of SC 2.
ThorZaIN double fast expoed.
Doesn't change it, it's the same vulnerability. He slowed his tech to get it, which as we just saw, wasn't what lost Jinro the game. Thorzain had one gas, Jinro had 3.
The vulnerability is having all your production facilities busted down.
On March 21 2011 07:26 PlaGuE_R wrote: please stop bringing july zerg into this, that guy is terrible plain and simple. he got to the finals through an easy bracket by stringing 6 pools and all ins and got facerolled the second he faced an opponent that doesnt crumble to all ins.
Wow, troll much? I don't think I should even dignify such a bad blatant troll attempt with a response. -_-
because you'd rather attribute the fact that he got facerolled by MC to imbalance rather then the fact that he plainly is bad at sc2, regardless of how good he was at BW
Except he played almost the exact same way in BW as he is now, with the only difference that BW was a MUCH more balanced and skill oriented game in the two eras that he did well in (Oov + Savior/pre-JD).
I did not mention imbalance or hint at imbalance anywhere in my post...so...keep on trolling I guess?
thanks, you just mentioned balance now. You didn't have to say it for me to know that's exactly the excuse you wanted. And maybe July used that style in BW but this is a different game and the same style doesnt work in both games. July is just not as good as you make him out to be. For example, Nestea is 10 times better then July and im sure GSL finals would have been much more entertaining had it been MC v Nestea
On March 21 2011 07:02 hugman wrote: @MYM.ClouD: On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar
It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be
It was blind because you always make the 3 barracks wall if you open FE, then you follow up with any of the common FE build orders. It was blind decision and it turned out right but if Jinro decided to open marine blueflame hellions (like he did for example vs idra in their most recent games) he would have had a build order win. I think these games were terrible and didn't show 10% of the awesomeness this bo3 could have had.
I disagree but w/e we'll never know That bust in G1 hit before blue flame would've been done, and Morrow had an assload of speedlings
That bust in G1 hits at the same time you get blueflame on hellions. You lose 2 barracks but you hold everything without losing scvs. Again, this series was totally disappointing and I really don't respect Morrow decision to blindly cheese in g1 and g3 in such an important tournament.
The third game was questionable. I was looking at the production tab and praying for drones. Then all those lings came... In the deciding match, cross-positions, I really don't get why you would want to rely on your opponent to not defend a bust when you've done it in the two previous games.
But game 1, in a best of three, I think was really smart. Jinro didn't see it coming at all. Don't get why you would ever lose respect for him because of that. StarCraft is a game of hidden information. You have to bluff a certain percentage, otherwise you won't win as much as you should.
The way Morrow played in g1 and g3 are blind builds who can't rely on scouting. In a progamer level game you simply don't have the tools to scout either the 2 base baneling bust or what the terran is doing in time. Morrow knows this well and he decided to go for some blind risk build, showing that he felt terribly inferior and wouldn't want to face Jinro in a straight match. Knowing Morrow as a very rational person and player I don't respect his choice to not put his real decision skills in a longer game. This was just blind build order counter with a 50% ratio of win/loss.
Honestly, people should give players a little more credit. As someone above me said, Morrow scouted the 14CC in both games, either through the absence of refinery or the CC itself (I don't know the timing of the marine). The build is not blind, it is designed to punish a Terran FE.
Someone earlier compared it to a 4 gate, which I think is a pretty good comparison. In fact it's just a simple a timing attack. So everybody chill out, there's no need to slate the players for making correct decisions.
Edit: I just wrote 'give players a little more credit' without realising I was actually quoting one Well, I'll concede to your superior game knowledge since I'm pretty much just observing rather than playing the MU.
On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote: I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.
But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.
Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.
This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).
Pretty much sums up the problem I have with the fact that Z gets a "free" FE. I hear people talking about how nicely Morrow punished Jinro for doing a FE, but they all fail to mention that it is impossible for T to really punish (as in: win the game right here or deal a decisive blow) a Zerg doing a FE without resorting to some kind of bunker rush cheese (which, if it fails, will cost you). Basically T is on the back foot from early on, especially on these larger maps.
As far as I know, a FE should be a calculated risk. As it is now, it is calculated, but not that much of a risk at all. In case of TvZ it's mainly because reapers got nerfed into oblivion. Reapers were basically the only terran unit that could really punish a Z for doing something as risky as a FE.
On March 21 2011 07:02 hugman wrote: @MYM.ClouD: On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar
It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be
It was blind because you always make the 3 barracks wall if you open FE, then you follow up with any of the common FE build orders. It was blind decision and it turned out right but if Jinro decided to open marine blueflame hellions (like he did for example vs idra in their most recent games) he would have had a build order win. I think these games were terrible and didn't show 10% of the awesomeness this bo3 could have had.
I disagree but w/e we'll never know That bust in G1 hit before blue flame would've been done, and Morrow had an assload of speedlings
That bust in G1 hits at the same time you get blueflame on hellions. You lose 2 barracks but you hold everything without losing scvs. Again, this series was totally disappointing and I really don't respect Morrow decision to blindly cheese in g1 and g3 in such an important tournament.
The third game was questionable. I was looking at the production tab and praying for drones. Then all those lings came... In the deciding match, cross-positions, I really don't get why you would want to rely on your opponent to not defend a bust when you've done it in the two previous games.
But game 1, in a best of three, I think was really smart. Jinro didn't see it coming at all. Don't get why you would ever lose respect for him because of that. StarCraft is a game of hidden information. You have to bluff a certain percentage, otherwise you won't win as much as you should.
The way Morrow played in g1 and g3 are blind builds who can't rely on scouting. In a progamer level game you simply don't have the tools to scout either the 2 base baneling bust or what the terran is doing in time. Morrow knows this well and he decided to go for some blind risk build, showing that he felt terribly inferior and wouldn't want to face Jinro in a straight match. Knowing Morrow as a very rational person and player I don't respect his choice to not put his real decision skills in a longer game. This was just blind build order counter with a 50% ratio of win/loss.
Most people, even Morrow would probably say Jinro is the better player so a 50 % chance is actually pretty good if you are in Morrow's shoes.
Just because he's not in the GSL doesn't mean he's an inferior player though. MorroW is a pretty well proven player and i think lots of people underestimated him.
This is so funny, the LR thread I mean. I bet even panel of 30 experts with explanation like "disconnect ruling" in day one(which was very professional, just to clarify) with large essays would not solve this:D
On March 21 2011 07:26 PlaGuE_R wrote: please stop bringing july zerg into this, that guy is terrible plain and simple. he got to the finals through an easy bracket by stringing 6 pools and all ins and got facerolled the second he faced an opponent that doesnt crumble to all ins.
Wow, troll much? I don't think I should even dignify such a bad blatant troll attempt with a response. -_-
because you'd rather attribute the fact that he got facerolled by MC to imbalance rather then the fact that he plainly is bad at sc2, regardless of how good he was at BW
Except he played almost the exact same way in BW as he is now, with the only difference that BW was a MUCH more balanced and skill oriented game in the two eras that he did well in (Oov + Savior/pre-JD).
I did not mention imbalance or hint at imbalance anywhere in my post...so...keep on trolling I guess?
thanks, you just mentioned balance now. You didn't have to say it for me to know that's exactly the excuse you wanted. And maybe July used that style in BW but this is a different game and the same style doesnt work in both games. July is just not as good as you make him out to be. For example, Nestea is 10 times better then July and im sure GSL finals would have been much more entertaining had it been MC v Nestea
No, see...the issue I had was you saying July is " terrible plain and simple." That's total bullshit, no matter how you rationalize it. Balance is also a pretty objective fact when comparing the metagame of 2005-2008 to the metagame of SC2 right now. However, I wasn't talking about PvZ specifically, just the GENERAL state of the game when talking about "balance." Therefore, no, I wasn't mentioning "imbalance" in the same connotation that you implied.
MC is a better player at SC2 than July...so? Doesn't make July "terrible" or 10x the inferior player to NesTea, now does it? lol....
On March 21 2011 07:02 hugman wrote: @MYM.ClouD: On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar
It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be
It was blind because you always make the 3 barracks wall if you open FE, then you follow up with any of the common FE build orders. It was blind decision and it turned out right but if Jinro decided to open marine blueflame hellions (like he did for example vs idra in their most recent games) he would have had a build order win. I think these games were terrible and didn't show 10% of the awesomeness this bo3 could have had.
I disagree but w/e we'll never know That bust in G1 hit before blue flame would've been done, and Morrow had an assload of speedlings
That bust in G1 hits at the same time you get blueflame on hellions. You lose 2 barracks but you hold everything without losing scvs. Again, this series was totally disappointing and I really don't respect Morrow decision to blindly cheese in g1 and g3 in such an important tournament.
The third game was questionable. I was looking at the production tab and praying for drones. Then all those lings came... In the deciding match, cross-positions, I really don't get why you would want to rely on your opponent to not defend a bust when you've done it in the two previous games.
But game 1, in a best of three, I think was really smart. Jinro didn't see it coming at all. Don't get why you would ever lose respect for him because of that. StarCraft is a game of hidden information. You have to bluff a certain percentage, otherwise you won't win as much as you should.
The way Morrow played in g1 and g3 are blind builds who can't rely on scouting. In a progamer level game you simply don't have the tools to scout either the 2 base baneling bust or what the terran is doing in time. Morrow knows this well and he decided to go for some blind risk build, showing that he felt terribly inferior and wouldn't want to face Jinro in a straight match. Knowing Morrow as a very rational person and player I don't respect his choice to not put his real decision skills in a longer game. This was just blind build order counter with a 50% ratio of win/loss.
Why are you BMing Morrow so much? You just keep saying it again and again. Maybe you're disappointed but still...manner up and don't trash on morrow for the games. It's not like he played bad. And if it's true as you say that even a silver league player can baneling bust a pro going FE then...why would a pro go for FE?
On March 21 2011 07:42 maartendq wrote: Pretty much sums up the problem I have with the fact that Z gets a "free" FE. I hear people talking about how nicely Morrow punished Jinro for doing a FE, but they all fail to mention that it is impossible for T to really punish (as in: win the game right here or deal a decisive blow) a Zerg doing a FE without resorting to some kind of bunker rush cheese (which, if it fails, will cost you). Basically T is on the back foot from early on, especially on these larger maps.
As far as I know, a FE should be a calculated risk. As it is now, it is calculated, but not that much of a risk at all. In case of TvZ it's mainly because reapers got nerfed into oblivion. Reapers were basically the only terran unit that could really punish a Z for doing something as risky as a FE.
Zerg gets an expansion first: Welcome to Starcraft. Thats how it is in both games. It's intentional. 14CC is a RISK, FE doesn't mean nessecerily CC first expand, that is most definitely a risk. You pointed out the counter to hatch first in your post already, if it was autowin if a Zerg expanded that would be ridiculous. This counter could have been defended better just like a bunker rush. You are complaining over nothing, Zerg isn't supposed to play from one base.
On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote: I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.
But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.
Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.
This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).
Pretty much sums up the problem I have with the fact that Z gets a "free" FE. I hear people talking about how nicely Morrow punished Jinro for doing a FE, but they all fail to mention that it is impossible for T to really punish (as in: win the game right here or deal a decisive blow) a Zerg doing a FE without resorting to some kind of bunker rush cheese (which, if it fails, will cost you). Basically T is on the back foot from early on, especially on these larger maps.
As far as I know, a FE should be a calculated risk. As it is now, it is calculated, but not that much of a risk at all. In case of TvZ it's mainly because reapers got nerfed into oblivion. Reapers were basically the only terran unit that could really punish a Z for doing something as risky as a FE.
How... What?
Game 2 - Morrow does a FE and gets punished for it. A decisive blow was dealt.
2 rax and baneling bust are not that different in terms of strategies - they both deal damage to an early expansion. And in both cases, if it fails, you are behind.
In this series Morrow's baneling bust worked twice and failed once. He lost the game in which it failed (just as a point of discussion, I don't think he defended that badly - as far as I could see he wasn't that far behind on drones. So I think it was the commitment to the bust and more importantly Jinro's excellent defense of it which lost him the game).
On March 21 2011 07:26 PlaGuE_R wrote: please stop bringing july zerg into this, that guy is terrible plain and simple. he got to the finals through an easy bracket by stringing 6 pools and all ins and got facerolled the second he faced an opponent that doesnt crumble to all ins.
Wow, troll much? I don't think I should even dignify such a bad blatant troll attempt with a response. -_-
because you'd rather attribute the fact that he got facerolled by MC to imbalance rather then the fact that he plainly is bad at sc2, regardless of how good he was at BW
Except he played almost the exact same way in BW as he is now, with the only difference that BW was a MUCH more balanced and skill oriented game in the two eras that he did well in (Oov + Savior/pre-JD).
I did not mention imbalance or hint at imbalance anywhere in my post...so...keep on trolling I guess?
thanks, you just mentioned balance now. You didn't have to say it for me to know that's exactly the excuse you wanted. And maybe July used that style in BW but this is a different game and the same style doesnt work in both games. July is just not as good as you make him out to be. For example, Nestea is 10 times better then July and im sure GSL finals would have been much more entertaining had it been MC v Nestea
No, see...the issue I had was you saying July is " terrible plain and simple." That's total bullshit, no matter how you rationalize it. Balance is also a pretty objective fact when comparing the metagame of 2005-2008 to the metagame of SC2 right now. However, I wasn't talking about PvZ specifically, just the GENERAL state of the game when talking about "balance." Therefore, no, I wasn't mentioning "imbalance" in the same connotation that you implied.
MC is a better player at SC2 than July...so? Doesn't make July "terrible" or 10x the inferior player to NesTea, now does it? lol....
how is that bullshit? cuz he made it to the finals? yeah so did TSL_Rain who was pretty bad as well. July showed no 'great' play, no clide vs leenock game 3, no jinro vs mc where Jinro meched. Just baneling busts and other crappy builds agaisnt players that couldn't handle it. Then he 'created a new style!' to play MC and got absolutely facerolled.
On March 21 2011 07:02 hugman wrote: @MYM.ClouD: On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar
It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be
It was blind because you always make the 3 barracks wall if you open FE, then you follow up with any of the common FE build orders. It was blind decision and it turned out right but if Jinro decided to open marine blueflame hellions (like he did for example vs idra in their most recent games) he would have had a build order win. I think these games were terrible and didn't show 10% of the awesomeness this bo3 could have had.
I disagree but w/e we'll never know That bust in G1 hit before blue flame would've been done, and Morrow had an assload of speedlings
That bust in G1 hits at the same time you get blueflame on hellions. You lose 2 barracks but you hold everything without losing scvs. Again, this series was totally disappointing and I really don't respect Morrow decision to blindly cheese in g1 and g3 in such an important tournament.
The third game was questionable. I was looking at the production tab and praying for drones. Then all those lings came... In the deciding match, cross-positions, I really don't get why you would want to rely on your opponent to not defend a bust when you've done it in the two previous games.
But game 1, in a best of three, I think was really smart. Jinro didn't see it coming at all. Don't get why you would ever lose respect for him because of that. StarCraft is a game of hidden information. You have to bluff a certain percentage, otherwise you won't win as much as you should.
[...] Knowing Morrow as a very rational person and player I don't respect his choice to not put his real decision skills in a longer game. This was just blind build order counter with a 50% ratio of win/loss.
I know that I can't discuss about the strats with you knowledgewise.. But:
If you think he's a rational player... And he might know that he usually has a winratio of less than 50%... Wouldn't you then agree that his decision to chose a 50/50 win/lose build makes sense?^^
EPT
Well, I'll concede to your superior game knowledge since I'm pretty much just observing rather than playing the MU.
