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[TSL] Ro32 Day2 - Page 329

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Upset about the results? Want to vent your rage? Use this instead
ThaZenith
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada3116 Posts
March 20 2011 22:11 GMT
#6561
Every strat has a counter. Being mad that banelings counter CC first is like being mad that 2 rax counters 3 hatches first. And if jinro had been interested in scouting more he probably would have caught it in time to prepare for it still.

Other than invincible marine behind the building bunker, I enjoyed every game today. Sad HuK got knocked out to proxy, but it's his own fault lol.
Lennon
Profile Joined February 2010
United Kingdom2275 Posts
March 20 2011 22:11 GMT
#6562
On March 21 2011 06:53 Firkraag8 wrote:
MorroW scouts fast expand and deals with it appropriately, shouldn't he have? I don't see what the problem is.


The problem is that the same people enjoy yelling imbalance every game. The same fanboys enjoy making up excuses for their idols when they lose. It's an endless argument.
proxY_
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1561 Posts
March 20 2011 22:11 GMT
#6563
You guys don't understand the timings here, Morrow got into the base, saw the cc, and also saw that Jinro had no gas (I'm 90% sure on that). He definitely knew that he didn't have a factory. Siege tech wouldn't have finished in time.

Best best way for Jinro to have defended at that point was get up a factory as soon as possible and start making hellions. He might have two out when the bust hit and if he can micro them really well (getting lots of splash in as units filter through the choke) then he can probably hold. He also has a chance to hold if he doesn't let 10-15 scvs get hit by a baneling clump. Suicide one or two scvs at a time to kill of individual banelings and when the banelings are gone using your scvs to buffer the marines. Very hard yes, impossible no.
ReacH.
Profile Joined November 2010
Scotland333 Posts
March 20 2011 22:11 GMT
#6564
On March 21 2011 07:09 Mackh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 06:52 DwmC_Foefen wrote:
When are the next games btw?


They are no more games planned, only a bunch of useless so-called pro+ Show Spoiler +
cheesers
-gamers and the gratos protoss fighting for some cash, I'am not watching this.

Mc wins because he knows 2 things that no other player left in the tournament knows how to
- he knows how to change his playstyle once in a while
- he knows how to maccro.

Next time invite some real maccro player thx


Totally agree, I still can't believe they invited ActionJesus over IdrA.


Wait a second...
elmizzt
Profile Joined February 2010
United States3309 Posts
March 20 2011 22:12 GMT
#6565
On March 21 2011 07:10 dakel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 07:06 tmzu wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote:
I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.

But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.

Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.

This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).


Are you dense?

No shit zerg is able to fe more safely, its the way the race plays and it's why hatcheries cost 300 instead of 400.


350.... cause of the cost of the drone...

Please don't start that one up again lol...
d=(^_^)z
Rabiator
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany3948 Posts
March 20 2011 22:12 GMT
#6566
So far the tournament had quite a few "unexpected results". I like it even though my own predictions got screwed over in almost every match. Having these surprises and players coming up with different strategies is good, because it keeps the game fresh to watch for spectators.
If you cant say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying.
RevRich
Profile Joined February 2011
United States218 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 22:17:07
March 20 2011 22:12 GMT
#6567
Seems like Morrow was gonna baneling bust 3 times regardless of Jinro's build. He was gonna baneling bust all games and hope for success it seemed. I wanted to see MC vs Jinro, not MC vs Morrow (who is just july zerg, but worse imo).
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 22:15:34
March 20 2011 22:12 GMT
#6568
This thread is not the place to discuss TvZ balance in general, or how you would redesign StarCraft 2. Unless you'd like to talk about the players or the games specifically, don't post.
✌
EnderCraft
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1746 Posts
March 20 2011 22:12 GMT
#6569
In short, I think what Cloud is claiming is morrowsbuild>jinrosbuild. Honestly, I think he's right. Morrow simply had to knock down the wall and charge in with his zerglings Are their other builds that take more skill? Yes, but this is a competitive environment, and Morrow did what he had to do to win.

The question is should Starcraft 2 as a competitive E-Sport have that particular element. Regardless, I think it is here to stay.
SC:BW has a higher skill ceiling than SC2? SC 64 is where it's at brah.
gamefan15
Profile Joined March 2011
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 22:18:35
March 20 2011 22:13 GMT
#6570
On March 21 2011 07:03 mastergriggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 06:57 gamefan15 wrote:
On March 21 2011 06:42 KhAlleB wrote:
as day9 said the better player try to get the game during the longest time, while the worse try to end it asap


dont like this statement tbh. e.g. means ogs mc is the worse player in game 1 vs ciara because he could finish it right there? or that beeing better in micro in the early stages is worth nothing?

I would say a good player will always try to find flaws in his opponent right from the beginning of the game and try to abuse them to get ahead and if you kill someone with a pressure build early on its even better! but ofc he wouldnt do this by trying blind coinflips all the time.


Do you understand what Day9 means by the statement? Bad players can't keep up in macro with good players. So they do all-ins and cheese every game since that is the only way they can win., compared to a good player who is willing to play it out. Throwing in an all in every once and a while is a strategy choice, but if it is the only thing you rely on (BitbyBit prime), people will peg you for it and prepare for cheese all the time.

MC by no means did an all in either game, just a pressure build that destroyed the zerg because Ciara was greedy with his drones (like he had five zerglings vs the army of mc).


ofc I know that.. but the sentence how the guy is quoting it(dont know how day9 originally was saying it) is not right imo.. that the good player will always try to get the game on the long run. if you see the chance a good player will always utilize it and end the game as early as possible if the opponent allows that to happen. but ofc not by blind all ins or cheeses without backup plans. but you cant generalize this by saying the good player will always try to win it in the longest period of time. also cheese != cheese. there are thousand possibilities of stupid cheese and also thousand possibilities of cheese where you cut corners in a smart way or mix it one time up to caught your opponent with his pants down.
Raiznhell
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada786 Posts
March 20 2011 22:13 GMT
#6571
On March 21 2011 07:07 infinity2k9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote:
I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.

But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.

Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.

This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).


But just like in BW, Zerg needs the extra base doesn't it? You can't say equal bases is fair.


I'm not saying that Jeez I'm just saying that I think this will be debated for awhile and gave some views as to why holy crap.

I just think that the fact that his Baneling bust is almost no risk and zero skill to pull off and it auto killed the 14 CC build WAY after the build was done means that that build is now completely undo-able because a Zerg can simply make Banelings and win despite Terrans skill in trying to hold off Banelings (great wall of china with production facilities). And just because Zergs need a fast expo doesn't mean they should have to have almost no risk to hatch FIRST. And what risk they do pose from it is from allins only not 2 base pushing.

User was warned for this post
Cake or Death?
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
March 20 2011 22:13 GMT
#6572
On March 21 2011 07:09 MYM.ClouD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 07:02 hugman wrote:
@MYM.ClouD:
On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers
I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar

It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be

It was blind because you always make the 3 barracks wall if you open FE, then you follow up with any of the common FE build orders. It was blind decision and it turned out right but if Jinro decided to open marine blueflame hellions (like he did for example vs idra in their most recent games) he would have had a build order win. I think these games were terrible and didn't show 10% of the awesomeness this bo3 could have had.

I disagree but w/e we'll never know
That bust in G1 hit before blue flame would've been done, and Morrow had an assload of speedlings
legaton
Profile Joined December 2010
France1763 Posts
March 20 2011 22:13 GMT
#6573
On March 21 2011 07:12 RevRich wrote:
Seems like Morrow was gonna baneling bust 3 times regardless of Jinro's build. Did he scout the CC first in games 1/3? I dont think so...he just baneling busted all games and hoped it worked. I wanted to see MC vs Jinro, not MC vs Morrow (who is just july zerg, but worse imo).


Morrow plays nothing like JulyZerg. he usually is a pretty macro-oriented zerg. Still, i hope a better showing from him that the massacre of Ciara.
No GG, No Skill - Jaedong <3
Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
March 20 2011 22:14 GMT
#6574
On March 21 2011 07:09 MYM.ClouD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 07:02 hugman wrote:
@MYM.ClouD:
On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers
I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar

It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be

It was blind because you always make the 3 barracks wall if you open FE, then you follow up with any of the common FE build orders. It was blind decision and it turned out right but if Jinro decided to open marine blueflame hellions (like he did for example vs idra in their most recent games) he would have had a build order win. I think these games were terrible and didn't show 10% of the awesomeness this bo3 could have had.


So I guess you're in the Incontrol/Idra camp of, "Julyzerg's style is so last month, cheesy, and requires no skill to play."

Except it wins games (got July to the GSL finals), and that's the point? An overwhelming majority of SC2 right now is all about BO wins anyways. No one has the game figured out enough to effectively counter anything in a split second.
Feidspar
Profile Joined December 2010
United States25 Posts
March 20 2011 22:14 GMT
#6575
On March 21 2011 07:10 dakel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 07:06 tmzu wrote:No shit zerg is able to fe more safely, its the way the race plays and it's why hatcheries cost 300 instead of 400.


350.... cause of the cost of the drone...


Not to mention a hatch gives what like.. 1 or 2 food while nexus/CC gives a friggin' boatload. So I'd say expanding actually comes out even in all the races. It is NOT cheaper for zerg to expand.

User was warned for this post
lim1017
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1278 Posts
March 20 2011 22:14 GMT
#6576
so is the only correct responce to a 14 CC to double expand?

theres nothing wrong with punishing a risky build. Perhaps that is zergs problem atm they arent punishing these P & T FE builds as hard or as often as they should.

IMO even if all morrow did was bust down 3 racks, stop the stim and kill 1/2 the marines he wasnt SO far behind that it was impossible to come back. I believe the harvester counts were simlar



BGrael
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany229 Posts
March 20 2011 22:15 GMT
#6577
nooooooooooooo. Jinro ;(. Is that Day9 btw?
HeroHenry
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1723 Posts
March 20 2011 22:15 GMT
#6578
Wish the casting was as good as yesterday but the games are decent
ReacH.
Profile Joined November 2010
Scotland333 Posts
March 20 2011 22:15 GMT
#6579
On March 21 2011 07:12 RevRich wrote:
Seems like Morrow was gonna baneling bust 3 times regardless of Jinro's build. Did he scout the CC first in games 1/3? I dont think so...he just baneling busted all games and hoped it worked. I wanted to see MC vs Jinro, not MC vs Morrow (who is just july zerg, but worse imo).


To be fair, I think he did get an overlord scout in game 1 and a drone scout in game 3 before he decided to baneling bust.
aTnClouD
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Italy2428 Posts
March 20 2011 22:15 GMT
#6580
On March 21 2011 07:13 hugman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2011 07:09 MYM.ClouD wrote:
On March 21 2011 07:02 hugman wrote:
@MYM.ClouD:
On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers
I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar

It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be

It was blind because you always make the 3 barracks wall if you open FE, then you follow up with any of the common FE build orders. It was blind decision and it turned out right but if Jinro decided to open marine blueflame hellions (like he did for example vs idra in their most recent games) he would have had a build order win. I think these games were terrible and didn't show 10% of the awesomeness this bo3 could have had.

I disagree but w/e we'll never know
That bust in G1 hit before blue flame would've been done, and Morrow had an assload of speedlings

That bust in G1 hits at the same time you get blueflame on hellions. You lose 2 barracks but you hold everything without losing scvs. Again, this series was totally disappointing and I really don't respect Morrow decision to blindly cheese in g1 and g3 in such an important tournament.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/hunter692007/kruemelmonsteryn0.gif
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