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Game 1:
Morrow sees fast CC and goes for a high economy baneling bust similar to Kyrix old style. Excellent way to start a best of 3 because it's a strong build if Jinro doesn't suspect it and Morrow is known for playing 99% macro. Works great and Morrow takes game one.
Game 2:
Jinro's 2 rax pressure does way, way, way too much damage. Morrow is so far behind, he is practically dead. He's already up one game so it's a decent choice to try to bust Jinro as he takes his expansion. Jinro has prepared for it and Morrow decides against it. Though catching Jinro off guard at one point (unsieged), Morrow was too far behind from the beginning and Jinro's excellent siege tank placement => 1-1.
Game 3:
Jinro goes fast CC again. Makes a lot of buildings to protect himself. Morrow again goes for a pretty high economy baneling bust. In what looks almost the same as game 1, Jinro can't stop the banelings + zerlings and dies.
There was nothing wrong with Morrow's play. Although I think baneling busting in the third game is a bit risky because it's the deciding game, and you're cross positions; Morrow obviously knows something I don't.
People have just been taken in too much by the hate against 1 base plays and aggressive plays in general. It's okay to attack the opponent you know, it's a war game after all... This was a part of starcraft1 and it is a part of starcraft2. And it's a good part. Every best of X should include at least one game like that.
When sc2 first came out and a lot of beginners to RTS started playing, 1-base and all-ins were the only things these new players ever did. And it was the only thing you saw when you watched GSL as well. So old influential sc1 players like Artosis, Tasteless, Day9 etc. started talking down on it and teamliquid, filled with old sc1 players, followed suit. That was good, because it's probably made it so the metagame has moved very quickly in the correct direction (towards more long-term, stable play). But at this point it's overexaggerated.
There is actually nothing wrong with winning games by being aggressive. It's a part of the game. The onus is on the defending player to exploit the weakness in the aggression.
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If Jinro saves the energy on his CC's to scan MorroWs base in the right timing to see how many lings/drones he has + banenest or other tech, then places down 3 bunkers or so.. he lives right? and wins?
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I'm happy for MorroW. I'm sad for Jinro.
Best of luck in the future of the tournament!
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On March 21 2011 06:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Didn't see it, but DAMN JINRO LOST! Who will beat MC now?  Edit: Haha nice White Post ^_^ rofl
So many people basing a couple of recent results as if they were indicative of player skill level. MC said in his interview that he still thinks Mvp is the best player (outside of himself, but he always thinks that he's the best).
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Sick games.
I dont understand why people care complaining about baneling busts. First of all it's incredibly uncost effective, as opposed to 2rax bunker rushes which literally cost nothing except a 1-2 scvs and marines. 2nd, its not even all in, as morrow was on 3 bases with like 35 drones. He could of easily droned up after. It's literally zergs only early/mid game way of attacking a terran base since we have NO siege units except broodlords.
Maybe now terran wont feel so safe behind their stupid wallins.
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GG's all around.
My bracket is out the window!
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On March 21 2011 06:51 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 06:47 OooLong wrote:On March 21 2011 06:40 MYM.ClouD wrote:
Baneling bust off 2 bases is absolutely retarded and overpowered against any FE build who doesn't include fast hellions or fast siege tanks (which is a shit build anyway except for holding and punishing baneling bust). It turns the early game into a coinflip. People calling Morrow "hyper aggressive" or thinking he played well are wrong because anyone, even a silver league player, can pull it off. This just shows how this game is too much about chances and all in and not as skill centered as WC3 and SCBW. I'm very disappointed at SC2. It's not a coin flip, it's a counter to a build. If Terran don't fe and go hellions or fast Siege and will be far behind as you suggest and lose 100% of time against every zerg, then the game is broken. But it hasn't been proven, you need to clarify more... you dont get the point xd, all modern terrans bos are 1 rax FE or 15cc and then thers 3 or mb 4 follow ups 1 fast siege tank wich counters banelings but you wont be able to do shit when zerg takes a 3th instantly and makes 639064957r5678578 drones 2 fast helions with 2 facs/blue flame into 3 rax pressure wich is a prety solid build but its prety weak to defensive roach and a faster 3th base into std muta/ling/bling. 3 normal mnm play into a prety fast starport wich is just probably the best build to get your midgame going but it dies prety hard to bling busts.
If that is true as you say although it's a theory and not proven fact, Terran must get FE to keep up or be ahead of zerg, then Terran need to figure out a way to defend against a baneling bust because after this game Zergs will try to copy this build. 3 or maybe 4 bunker + 3rax wall seem unbustable vs a zerg bane bust.
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team liquid facebook trolling jinro: "Be sure to give some love to our great Liquid sponsor @lilappfactory who are immune to baneling bombs! #tsl #starcraft"
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On March 21 2011 06:52 DwmC_Foefen wrote:
When are the next games btw?
next weekend. same time, same place
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I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.
But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.
Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.
This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).
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@MYM.ClouD:
On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers
I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar
It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be
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the thing to remember is even if the baneling bust is NOT cost effective it stops unit production since the 3 racks make up 90% of jinros production.
you may be able to rewall off with 3 racks and produce maybe 1 or 2 rounds of units before they get busted down again?
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On March 21 2011 07:01 mappiechampion wrote:
If Jinro saves the energy on his CC's to scan MorroWs base in the right timing to see how many lings/drones he has + banenest or other tech, then places down 3 bunkers or so.. he lives right? and wins?
I'm no expert but my guess is that you need the mules so bad early game. If Morrow doesn't put down the Baneling's Nest then it's just a horrible loss.
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On March 21 2011 06:50 MYM.ClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 06:48 Defrag wrote:On March 21 2011 06:46 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 21 2011 06:44 aristarchus wrote:On March 21 2011 06:40 MYM.ClouD wrote:
Baneling bust off 2 bases is absolutely retarded and overpowered against any FE build who doesn't include fast hellions or fast siege tanks (which is a shit build anyway except for holding and punishing baneling bust). It turns the early game into a coinflip. People calling Morrow "hyper aggressive" or thinking he played well are wrong because anyone, even a silver league player, can pull it off. This just shows how this game is too much about chances and all in and not as skill centered as WC3 and SCBW. I'm very disappointed at SC2. It's not about whether they could execute it. It's about whether they could choose to do it. You're not including strategy in skill. Terrans in major tournaments often do FEs that don't have hellions or siege tanks and yet somehow they don't all lose. So either you're wrong and it isn't a clear win or isn't easy to execute, or the fact that it's so strong is something that most zergs haven't figured out. Either way, give Morrow some credit. That said, it feels nice to have a zerg player's wins being discounted and blamed on imbalance for once, rather than always terrans (though I bet Morrow is feeling like he's cursed...). He choose to do it out of nowhere with no real informations. If jinro opened FE into 2 fac hellions 3 rax stim (very, very common build) morrow would have been raped. You have to play blind and hope it works. This is SC2. I'm not sure how much of mindgame credit you can take out of this kind of simple all in build order decisions. How come if Morrow had a even drone count to Jinro's SCV number when going for first burst? ( talking about 3rd game ) Husky especially pointed that out that he's been throwing in some drones while morphing banelings so if he fails he can still play instead of gg'ing out. At worst he was going to destroy building facilities which would slow any counter attack anyway. The drone count doesn't matter in that situation, if you open FE hellions and hold a ling baneling push zerg simply doesn't have enough tech to hold the counterattack.
...So open FE hellions? If I FE as Zerg, I don't quick tech to mutas. It's common sense to cover the weak parts of your build isn't it?
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Morrow is an amazing tournament player. Takes a step up at every big tournament, which is something other players could learn from.
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On March 21 2011 06:57 gamefan15 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 06:42 KhAlleB wrote:
as day9 said the better player try to get the game during the longest time, while the worse try to end it asap dont like this statement tbh. e.g. means ogs mc is the worse player in game 1 vs ciara because he could finish it right there? or that beeing better in micro in the early stages is worth nothing? I would say a good player will always try to find flaws in his opponent right from the beginning of the game and try to abuse them to get ahead and if you kill someone with a pressure build early on its even better! but ofc he wouldnt do this by trying blind coinflips all the time.
Do you understand what Day9 means by the statement? Bad players can't keep up in macro with good players. So they do all-ins and cheese every game since that is the only way they can win., compared to a good player who is willing to play it out. Throwing in an all in every once and a while is a strategy choice, but if it is the only thing you rely on (BitbyBit prime), people will peg you for it and prepare for cheese all the time.
MC by no means did an all in either game, just a pressure build that destroyed the zerg because Ciara was greedy with his drones (like he had five zerglings vs the army of mc).
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On March 21 2011 07:01 ParasitJonte wrote:
When sc2 first came out and a lot of beginners to RTS started playing, 1-base and all-ins were the only things these new players ever did. And it was the only thing you saw when you watched GSL as well. So old influential sc1 players like Artosis, Tasteless, Day9 etc. started talking down on it and teamliquid, filled with old sc1 players, followed suit. That was good, because it's probably made it so the metagame has moved very quickly in the correct direction (towards more long-term, stable play). But at this point it's overexaggerated.
There is actually nothing wrong with winning games by being aggressive. It's a part of the game. The onus is on the defending player to exploit the weakness in the aggression.
+1
User was warned for this post
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Why chinro?Whyyyyyyy?I feel so sad that jinro's slumping
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On March 21 2011 06:58 Tula wrote:
Seriously people this thread is a disgrace....
If you have a build which can kill off an opponents build with a 85% chance and you scout your opponent going for the build you know you can kill, of course you are going to use it.
Jinro could have easily held if he had done something else, but instead he tried to go for a very greedy build behind a wall in and morrow punished him for it. IF morrow was a 1 trick pony, then it should have been easy for Jinro to beat him by forcing him to change his strategy, instead he played the same build in games 1 and 3 and lost miserably in both.
I'm sad for Jinro, because he is one of my favorite Terrans, but if you can't hold a 2 base baneling bust you don't deserve to advance, it's as simple as that.
you speak out of my soul , thanks for that! 
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On March 21 2011 06:40 MYM.ClouD wrote:
Baneling bust off 2 bases is absolutely retarded and overpowered against any FE build who doesn't include fast hellions or fast siege tanks (which is a shit build anyway except for holding and punishing baneling bust). It turns the early game into a coinflip. People calling Morrow "hyper aggressive" or thinking he played well are wrong because anyone, even a silver league player, can pull it off. This just shows how this game is too much about chances and all in and not as skill centered as WC3 and SCBW. I'm very disappointed at SC2.
User was warned for this post
Man, I hope they don't pick you to adjudicate any more disconnects.
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
