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+ Show Spoiler +[QUOTE]On March 21 2011 06:50 legaton wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 21 2011 06:48 Redman wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 21 2011 06:43 4Servy wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 21 2011 06:40 MYM.ClouD wrote:
Baneling bust off 2 bases is absolutely retarded and overpowered against any FE build who doesn't include fast hellions or fast siege tanks (which is a shit build anyway except for holding and punishing baneling bust). It turns the early game into a coinflip. People calling Morrow "hyper aggressive" or thinking he played well are wrong because anyone, even a silver league player, can pull it off. This just shows how this game is too much about chances and all in and not as skill centered as WC3 and SCBW. I'm very disappointed at SC2.
Dude arn't u a "pro" gamer?
first...when was wc3 EVER a "skill" based game?
second...how come there are tons of fucking players who can hold off banebusts and if its such a free win why isn't zergs win rate like 90%....its one thing when a random scrub qq's in a live report but man....this is probly why you wont ever make it big in sc2[/QUOTE][/quote]
Stop being stupid and bashing WC3, it was a game that required a lot of micro. [/QUOTE]
The absolutely unnecessary bashing of legitimate pro gamers is ludicrous. I think if ClouD says it's a coinflip. It's a coinflip. Telling him he won't get anywhere because he speaks his mind is just ad hominem and pathetic.
Also please don't judge a game which you clearly have no idea about. Wc3 was all micro, mainly skill based.
In regards to the battle of Sweden series:
Just analyzing game2 it's obvious Morrow cannot compete in a macro game at all with Jinro(no offense to him, he's an exceptional player) but Jinro's macro is just leaps and bounds ahead. He did what he had to do to win. gg
Also... + Show Spoiler +NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahaha 
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On March 21 2011 07:00 Myrkskog wrote:
ITT; Morrow playing like some random diamond.
Fixed.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Jinro could have prepared way better for an incoming bust (he essentially knew it was coming so a duble wall with way more stuff would've been appropriate). So I think he has no one to blame but himself. Had he actually prevailed he would've won that game almost automatically.
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On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote:
Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW
wat
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On March 21 2011 06:51 4Servy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 06:47 OooLong wrote:On March 21 2011 06:40 MYM.ClouD wrote:
Baneling bust off 2 bases is absolutely retarded and overpowered against any FE build who doesn't include fast hellions or fast siege tanks (which is a shit build anyway except for holding and punishing baneling bust). It turns the early game into a coinflip. People calling Morrow "hyper aggressive" or thinking he played well are wrong because anyone, even a silver league player, can pull it off. This just shows how this game is too much about chances and all in and not as skill centered as WC3 and SCBW. I'm very disappointed at SC2. It's not a coin flip, it's a counter to a build. If Terran don't fe and go hellions or fast Siege and will be far behind as you suggest and lose 100% of time against every zerg, then the game is broken. But it hasn't been proven, you need to clarify more... you dont get the point xd, all modern terrans bos are 1 rax FE or 15cc and then thers 3 or mb 4 follow ups 1 fast siege tank wich counters banelings but you wont be able to do shit when zerg takes a 3th instantly and makes 639064957r5678578 drones 2 fast helions with 2 facs/blue flame into 3 rax pressure wich is a prety solid build but its prety weak to defensive roach and a faster 3th base into std muta/ling/bling. 3 normal mnm play into a prety fast starport wich is just probably the best build to get your midgame going but it dies prety hard to bling busts.
open your mind.
if jinro made a single hellion for pure scouting purpose, scouted lots of speedlings/baneling, he should have immediately made siege tanks and completely nullified the baneling bust.
then make a few more hellions, then steamroll zerg army and take control of the game.
fortified wall + spreading marines is terrible... it's the worst thing you can do. you get no damage to the zerg units until they're in the base, and the lings have maximum surface area on each marine.... wtf....
jinro clearly hasn't played against baneling bust in a while.
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On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote:
I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.
But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.
Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.
This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).
Are you dense?
No shit zerg is able to fe more safely, its the way the race plays and it's why hatcheries cost 300 instead of 400.
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I am sad to see Jinro lose but it would be hypocritical of me to complain about Morrow's baneling busts when I cheered so hard for July when he was doing the same thing. Well deserved win by Morrow and I hope he takes out Hasuobs in the next round.
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On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote:
I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.
But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.
Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.
This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).
But just like in BW, Zerg needs the extra base doesn't it? You can't say equal bases is fair. Plus of course they can do an all-in and kill the hatch. But they don't need 2bases while doing it, that would be fucking ridiculous. You're saying you want to be able to all-in and kill the Zerg while being able to take expo?
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On March 21 2011 07:02 Binky1842 wrote:next weekend. same time, same place
Thank you, can't wait for TLO vs Nada :p
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TBH morrow deserve this win. maybe not because he clearly outplayed jinro but because of mind games and strategy. Game one jinro did sloppy preparations and didn't account for a baneling bust. Game two jinro did what everyone expected him to do and took the game pretty easy but game three morrow used some clever mind games making it look like he took a third but even here jinro was bad about protecting himself against a baneling bust as he was in the exact same position as game one.
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On March 21 2011 07:06 red4ce wrote:
I am sad to see Jinro lose but it would be hypocritical of me to complain about Morrow's baneling busts when I cheered so hard for July when he was doing the same thing. Well deserved win by Morrow and I hope he takes out Hasuobs in the next round.
quote of the day right there!
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On March 21 2011 07:02 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 06:50 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 21 2011 06:48 Defrag wrote:On March 21 2011 06:46 MYM.ClouD wrote:On March 21 2011 06:44 aristarchus wrote:On March 21 2011 06:40 MYM.ClouD wrote:
Baneling bust off 2 bases is absolutely retarded and overpowered against any FE build who doesn't include fast hellions or fast siege tanks (which is a shit build anyway except for holding and punishing baneling bust). It turns the early game into a coinflip. People calling Morrow "hyper aggressive" or thinking he played well are wrong because anyone, even a silver league player, can pull it off. This just shows how this game is too much about chances and all in and not as skill centered as WC3 and SCBW. I'm very disappointed at SC2. It's not about whether they could execute it. It's about whether they could choose to do it. You're not including strategy in skill. Terrans in major tournaments often do FEs that don't have hellions or siege tanks and yet somehow they don't all lose. So either you're wrong and it isn't a clear win or isn't easy to execute, or the fact that it's so strong is something that most zergs haven't figured out. Either way, give Morrow some credit. That said, it feels nice to have a zerg player's wins being discounted and blamed on imbalance for once, rather than always terrans (though I bet Morrow is feeling like he's cursed...). He choose to do it out of nowhere with no real informations. If jinro opened FE into 2 fac hellions 3 rax stim (very, very common build) morrow would have been raped. You have to play blind and hope it works. This is SC2. I'm not sure how much of mindgame credit you can take out of this kind of simple all in build order decisions. How come if Morrow had a even drone count to Jinro's SCV number when going for first burst? ( talking about 3rd game ) Husky especially pointed that out that he's been throwing in some drones while morphing banelings so if he fails he can still play instead of gg'ing out. At worst he was going to destroy building facilities which would slow any counter attack anyway. The drone count doesn't matter in that situation, if you open FE hellions and hold a ling baneling push zerg simply doesn't have enough tech to hold the counterattack. ...So open FE hellions? If I FE as Zerg, I don't quick tech to mutas. It's common sense to cover the weak parts of your build isn't it?
trying to teach cloud tvz.
i loled
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On March 21 2011 07:02 hugman wrote:
@MYM.ClouD:
On Taldarim Morrow scouted the 3-rax and saw all the geysers
I don't remember how much he scouted on Crevasse but probably something similar
It wasn't as blind as you make it out to be
It was blind because you always make the 3 barracks wall if you open FE, then you follow up with any of the common FE build orders. It was blind decision and it turned out right but if Jinro decided to open marine blueflame hellions (like he did for example vs idra in their most recent games) he would have had a build order win. I think these games were terrible and didn't show 10% of the awesomeness this bo3 could have had.
I'm also very sorry for bringing balance discussions into the TSL thread, my disappointment in this game was just too high at the moment to be calm about it. Apart from this I'm very happy Hasu won, I always thought he's an amazing player with lot of potential and now that he started practicing he deserves every single good result he is getting.
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On March 21 2011 06:52 DwmC_Foefen wrote:
When are the next games btw?
They are no more games planned, only a bunch of useless so-called pro+ Show Spoiler +-gamers and the gratos protoss fighting for some cash, I'am not watching this.
Mc wins because he knows 2 things that no other player left in the tournament knows how to
- he knows how to change his playstyle once in a while
- he knows how to maccro.
Next time invite some real maccro player thx
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Feedback to Husky: Great, great cast, as expected. Hopefully it shut a lot of the haters up.
Having such high words-per-minute without any umm's and every word being crystal clear is really really hard and I don't see why anyone would critisice his gameknowledge as well. Good job.
Only thing I could point out is that he is probally a bit too used to solocast and need more practice casting in a team. But then again I felt the same way about day[9] 6 months ago where he just kept talking and talking, not leaving much time for his co-caster.
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Hmmm maybe somebody should blame blizzard for giving zerg 3 early tier units, ling/baneling/roach.. If your gonna attack at an earlier timing, we zerg's kinda have to pick one. I think many people underestimate the amount of preparation pro players take to prepare builds against one another. There are a huge number of timings you could baneling bust at, and having the right amount of drones and larve to pull it off at a enemies vunerable timing isn't something any player could do, much less adapt it if your opponent does something different. I mean any Protoss can 4 gate, but when MC 4 gates someone its so much scarier because he is a pro player and he is extremely efficient at it. Any player can bane bust, but its not easy to optimize it. Optimizing builds and preparing critical timings and exploiting weakness and exploiting aggression is what makes a player a professional. I don't think many players are skilled enough to understand the subtle differences between an MC 4 gate and a mid Masters 4 gate. Morrow's baneling bust, or some random semi-pro zergs baneling bust. Also Consider Morrow used to win tournamnets as a pro TERRAN player, he has a good sense of Terran timings and thus his Z v T solid. Amazing that morrow can successfully win tournaments with more than one race. First player to do this consistently I think.
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Remember Nony in TSL2? He won because he beat IdrA in the ro8 by punishing IdrA's macro style in very similar fashion to Morrow. People QQ'ed just the same. If you expect to lose in the long game, or aren't as confident as your opponent, especially if he goes for a very risky build it's incredibly smart to try to punish it. Morrow beating Jinro was a result of skill, not luck, I wanted both players through, favouring Jinro but all this QQ is just ridiculous.
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Jinro could probably have survived the last bust, if he didn't move his Factory out 10s before the bust happened. Plus that 20 SCVs that just moved in to get taken out by banelings was bad luck.
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On March 21 2011 07:06 tmzu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 07:02 Raiznhell wrote:
I think what comes to play here is that Zerg can 14 hatch and a Terran can 2 Rax pressure to try and get slightly ahead for the macro game to come. 2 Rax pressure is obviously not going to be strong in those positions and only put Terran behind even if Zerg goes Hatch first.
But if Terran goes CC first then Zerg can respond after seeing that by cutting drones getting Banelings and auto-winning despite the great wall of china being in the way.
Terran can't just look at a Hatch first and do a non-allin auto-killing strategy like what MorroW did and still have 2 bases. Worst case scenario if the baneling busting failed, which I don't see how it possibly could have, MorroW can still drone up and be safe and ahead without any risk as destroying 3 barracks and a couple supply depots is going to set Terran back a mile that early on in the game.
This is something that's probably going to be looked into and debated about for the next while because it's very hard to see how Terran can ever attempt 14 CC ever when the simple kill switch for it is not allin and requires little to no micro skill at all plus can easily be done ages after the actual CC is planted. (in BW 14 CC is only risky to early pool builds and zerg can't just be like oh I see he 14 CC'd awhile ago, guess I'll just make this and kill him LOLz).
Are you dense? No shit zerg is able to fe more safely, its the way the race plays and it's why hatcheries cost 300 instead of 400.
350.... cause of the cost of the drone...
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EPT
