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On March 09 2011 19:38 HankScorpio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 19:34 Teael wrote:On March 09 2011 19:30 HankScorpio wrote:On March 09 2011 19:25 Kyuki wrote:On March 09 2011 19:18 HankScorpio wrote:
Build order wins are usually luck. Last GSL, MVP demolished MC because he went for DT's. Does that suggest that MVP is far superior, or that luck was simply in play.
Mules winning the game in a worker tradeoff isn't a racial imbalance, it's simply a perk that terran has, which allows them to recover from base trade/near base trade far better than the other two races.
It's merely something that's ignored when unit comparisons are done. Seriously go away... You're trolling hard. You first apply bullshit to game2 that just was not true, and then you take that bullshit and apply your universal knowledge of mules and how that won terran the game. Gj! You don't seem to understand the concept of scouting and how that affects a players choice of buildorder. The choice itself if it is completly blind, could be called luck, but that's pretty much NEVER the case. Players make wrong decisions though, and we see it frequently still. The Terran won because of that 3rd base. If he didn't have that 3rd base he would have won because of mules after the worker trade. It's not an imbalance, it's just something that happens with terran. As far as it Never being the case...Is this your first time watching GSL? Genius lost a couple of seasons ago because he went blind DT vs blind Banshee. Build order loss. I already pointed out the MVP vs MC game. Blind build orders happen ALL THE Time, and merely failing to notice it does not make you right or even coherent. That's because a blind DT play is a HUGE RISK Think about yesterday's game with hongun and MC for instance TWICE hongun went for a DT rush, and both times he lost to a 4gate, which hit him before his DT finished But that's totally his fault for playing so risky, or not scouting, and not luck EVERY BUILD has it's risk for instance massing roaches will see you getting owned by anything that flies going MMM against toss in the late game could potentially get you in a lot of trouble if he's getting his templar tech up gambling IRL has it's risks, and so will gambling in game Yep. Gambling is a risk. And risk is dependent on luck. Ergo my point.
Yeaaaah and it's the player's fault for trying to go for the easy win via cheesy play
Also
On March 09 2011 19:40 danielsan wrote:
still going DT after seeing the banshee, that's categorized under retard play.
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On March 09 2011 19:40 danielsan wrote:
it's blind DT that's a cheesy BO loss, not non-cloack banshee followed by a raven the "lucky BO"
still going DT after seeing the banshee, that's categorized under retard play.
game 2 was lost to overconfidence. after failing that attack protoss had no chance to win even without mules, so i don't see where this is going
I don't know if it's retard play as much as it is retard viewing. The banshee showed up at Alicia's base AFTER he had already completed the Dark Shrine.
As far as the overconfidence thing...I didn't see Alicia doing the zealot dance or building a Nexus in his opponents base, so I'll contend that that loss had more to do with him being too busy microing his colossus to notice the banshee, rather than with him being overconfident.
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Also, Alicia went for DT's AFTER he had 3 bases up, and people still claim it to be a "cheesy play"?
So is there any circumstance where DT's are not considered cheesy? And any circumstance where a cloaked banshee build IS considered cheesy?
Weird stuff.
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On March 09 2011 19:30 HankScorpio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 19:25 Kyuki wrote:On March 09 2011 19:18 HankScorpio wrote:
Build order wins are usually luck. Last GSL, MVP demolished MC because he went for DT's. Does that suggest that MVP is far superior, or that luck was simply in play.
Mules winning the game in a worker tradeoff isn't a racial imbalance, it's simply a perk that terran has, which allows them to recover from base trade/near base trade far better than the other two races.
It's merely something that's ignored when unit comparisons are done. Seriously go away... You're trolling hard. You first apply bullshit to game2 that just was not true, and then you take that bullshit and apply your universal knowledge of mules and how that won terran the game. Gj! You don't seem to understand the concept of scouting and how that affects a players choice of buildorder. The choice itself if it is completly blind, could be called luck, but that's pretty much NEVER the case. Players make wrong decisions though, and we see it frequently still. The Terran won because of that 3rd base. If he didn't have that 3rd base he would have won because of mules after the worker trade. It's not an imbalance, it's just something that happens with terran. As far as it Never being the case...Is this your first time watching GSL? Genius lost a couple of seasons ago because he went blind DT vs blind Banshee. Build order loss. I already pointed out the MVP vs MC game. Blind build orders happen ALL THE Time, and merely failing to notice it does not make you right or even coherent.
Ofc the terran won because of a third base, but he also didnt loose enough SCVs at home to warrent a lead for the toss even with mules in play. You have to understand that had not terran invested in the third, he'd have a much bigger army. The battle would've looked alot more different, and maybe Alicia wouldnt have attacked seeing a bigger army.
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Nonono, it's not completely blind... Players take a big risk in a Best of Series, when seeing indications that lends itself to a 50/50 situation and hope for the best. That is imho stupid, but we're still in this phase of the game that this happens frequently, and it gives you alot of freewins. Your ignorance is quite astounding.
Mvps build was just solid, and MC gambled - this is not based on luck, it was more trying to snatch a freewin with bad odds.
Something that is very different though is if a player has a plan and still follows through regardless of what he actually scouts (be it marines at the front with a bunker, or a marauder or two - big indicators). Then sure, you can call that a BO loss, but I'd rather call it unadaptive play or even bad play from the player that is not adapting, or tries to force his build regardless.
I.E, If you base your play on even odds that could go in favor or against (or odds that are more likely going against) then you made a bad move regardless if you win or loose. Calling it luck is just a sideeffect of what actually happend on screen disregarding the fact that the player made a choice based on atleast some information.
I'm not saying that luck doesnt exist in the game, but it's far from as evident as you try to make it out to be.
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Here's some info that Alicia had in game2:
Alicia had 2 observers.
2 banshees, with cloak was on the field.
Terran had expanded, made alot of rax and had production just about to kick in.
He still choose to go for a push with his fast colossi with range and his low count gateway units leaving his main and natural very vulnerable to banshee since he had to bring atleast 1 observer with him to kill Banshees in the push, making it pretty much impossible to cover both expansions. Alicia knew this.
What can we derive from this? It was a gamble with bad odds. He was hoping for the banshees to be home defending or have the push kill the Terran. If the Terran doesnt die, Protoss loose, if you had the banshees defending we could be on even footing, or if Toss did eco damage, Toss could be slightly ahead.
Push didnt kill the Terran. Protoss lost.
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All props go to people who make these LR threads, but I do hate when they don't update them :o We are forced to use this LR thread because it's made and all others will be closed. I do appreciate you making the thread but if you make it, update it.
Browsing through the pages give you nothing because most of it is just stupid arguing over even more stupid things and unless you have the time to actually read every post or get lucky, good luck figuring out the score.
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Noone updating topic? 
So annoying was going for a quick peak for result and now I have to browse through every page! Maybe a mod can update it? :p
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On March 09 2011 19:45 HankScorpio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 19:40 danielsan wrote:
it's blind DT that's a cheesy BO loss, not non-cloack banshee followed by a raven the "lucky BO"
still going DT after seeing the banshee, that's categorized under retard play.
game 2 was lost to overconfidence. after failing that attack protoss had no chance to win even without mules, so i don't see where this is going
I don't know if it's retard play as much as it is retard viewing. The banshee showed up at Alicia's base AFTER he had already completed the Dark Shrine. As far as the overconfidence thing...I didn't see Alicia doing the zealot dance or building a Nexus in his opponents base, so I'll contend that that loss had more to do with him being too busy microing his colossus to notice the banshee, rather than with him being overconfident.
he still warped them and hoped they somehow worked.
As i said before, early DT against bio, while still a gamble, it's a good one because the infrastructure for a raven is far away. Prioritizing DTs over army and zealot legs is poor play, when versing biomech play where a raven is much more likely to follow. Your P played bad. Get over it.
I doubt a GSL player does not notice his mineral line is getting wrecked and can't run probes away.
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Can somebody please update the results of the matches? I wanna know the scores...
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On March 09 2011 20:17 KristianJS wrote:
Can somebody please update the results of the matches? I wanna know the scores...
agreed, I just got on and can't even tell if the GSL even occurred
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it's one page back. is it that hard to look for it?
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Wow only 32 pages. Shortest GSL LR thread ever?
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Another day another terrible cast by Kelly, now that DOA is casting she feels even worse, since he is also new and really really good.....
I mean how can GOM choose a caster that does not even speak english for the english stream?
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On March 09 2011 19:45 HankScorpio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 19:40 danielsan wrote:
it's blind DT that's a cheesy BO loss, not non-cloack banshee followed by a raven the "lucky BO"
still going DT after seeing the banshee, that's categorized under retard play.
game 2 was lost to overconfidence. after failing that attack protoss had no chance to win even without mules, so i don't see where this is going
I don't know if it's retard play as much as it is retard viewing. The banshee showed up at Alicia's base AFTER he had already completed the Dark Shrine. As far as the overconfidence thing...I didn't see Alicia doing the zealot dance or building a Nexus in his opponents base, so I'll contend that that loss had more to do with him being too busy microing his colossus to notice the banshee, rather than with him being overconfident.
He noticed the banshee before the shrine finished or at least he should have noticed it, 2'nd he went for fast 3'rd the gold expand and teching to dts. How do you call going for a fast 3'rd and teching , it was a gamble he took if his enemy didn't have detection he would have bought time for his 3'rd ( the gold to kick in) and win. It was a gamble that he lost and his odds went really down in the moment he noticed the banshee(enemy has a starport and a reaven is probably coming) and still went for dts.
and 2'nd game the terran "gambled" he said ok , if i have clocked banshee and keep the towers there will be a very low chance he scouts my 3'rd fast and it will kick in and give me the advantage i need. So if you think about it they are the same strats in both games but executed by different players - i have map control with invisible units and i get a really fast 3'rd and the invisible will buy me time. So if you qq about what happened in any of the game ...
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On March 09 2011 19:30 HankScorpio wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 19:25 Kyuki wrote:On March 09 2011 19:18 HankScorpio wrote:
Build order wins are usually luck. Last GSL, MVP demolished MC because he went for DT's. Does that suggest that MVP is far superior, or that luck was simply in play.
Mules winning the game in a worker tradeoff isn't a racial imbalance, it's simply a perk that terran has, which allows them to recover from base trade/near base trade far better than the other two races.
It's merely something that's ignored when unit comparisons are done. Seriously go away... You're trolling hard. You first apply bullshit to game2 that just was not true, and then you take that bullshit and apply your universal knowledge of mules and how that won terran the game. Gj! You don't seem to understand the concept of scouting and how that affects a players choice of buildorder. The choice itself if it is completly blind, could be called luck, but that's pretty much NEVER the case. Players make wrong decisions though, and we see it frequently still. The Terran won because of that 3rd base. If he didn't have that 3rd base he would have won because of mules after the worker trade. It's not an imbalance, it's just something that happens with terran. As far as it Never being the case...Is this your first time watching GSL? Genius lost a couple of seasons ago because he went blind DT vs blind Banshee. Build order loss. I already pointed out the MVP vs MC game. Blind build orders happen ALL THE Time, and merely failing to notice it does not make you right or even coherent.
If you're mentioning about GSL Open season 2 i think you're confused about the build orders, Genius went blind DT against a T on round of 16, against a 1 base Thor rush and won and the game he lost to a Blind banshee build was on Ro8 against Rainbow (Hope_Torture back then), he went for blind 3 gate blink stalker against a blind banshee open, he got robo+observer at the end but it was too late and he lost. (Delta Quadrant was the map)
Not that it adds or remove anything from your argument, just a correction. =D
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since the OP isn't updated, I listed the recommended games polls, because these often decide if I'll watch the vods. 
Leenok vs Losira
+ Show Spoiler +game 1 + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Leenok vs Losira G1?No (30) 83% If you have time (4) 11% Yes (2) 6% 36 total votes Your vote: Recommend Leenok vs Losira G1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
game 2 + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Leenok vs Losira G2?No (27) 84% If you have time (3) 9% Yes (2) 6% 32 total votes Your vote: Recommend Leenok vs Losira G2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
game 3 + Show Spoiler +
Alicia vs SuperNoVa
+ Show Spoiler +game 1 + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Alicia vs Supernova G1?Yes (32) 41% If you have time (26) 33% No (20) 26% 78 total votes Your vote: Recommend Alicia vs Supernova G1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
game 2 + Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Alicia vs Supernova G2Yes (49) 66% No (18) 24% If you have time (7) 9% 74 total votes Your vote: Recommend Alicia vs Supernova G2 (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
game 3 + Show Spoiler +
thx DumEN for the polls
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Thanks ludwigvan and others.
Updated the OP accordingly
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On March 09 2011 20:29 Greenworld wrote:
He noticed the banshee before the shrine finished or at least he should have noticed it, 2'nd he went for fast 3'rd the gold expand and teching to dts. How do you call going for a fast 3'rd and teching , it was a gamble he took if his enemy didn't have detection he would have bought time for his 3'rd ( the gold to kick in) and win. It was a gamble that he lost and his odds went really down in the moment he noticed the banshee(enemy has a starport and a reaven is probably coming) and still went for dts.
and 2'nd game the terran "gambled" he said ok , if i have clocked banshee and keep the towers there will be a very low chance he scouts my 3'rd fast and it will kick in and give me the advantage i need. So if you think about it they are the same strats in both games but executed by different players - i have map control with invisible units and i get a really fast 3'rd and the invisible will buy me time. So if you qq about what happened in any of the game ...
What do you mean by "should have noticed" a banshee? How? He sent a scouting probe that way, and the probe missed the banshee by less than one second. By the time the banshee was at his base, the Dark Shrine was done.
Look, you've made a good point about them doing the same strats, but you call Alicia a gamble (rightfully so), and you purposely neglect to call the same strat by a Terran a gamble.
Well if they were bloody gambles, as you concur, then surely my point about luck stands, does it not?
That's all I'm saying. Alicia wasn't outplayed, he was out lucked this series. No big deal, it happens, that's why Nestea and MVP are where they are right now.
But my initial and main bloody point stands and has only been reaffirmed by those brilliant minds who seem to try to pose an argument in this thread.
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On March 09 2011 20:28 Almtom wrote:
Another day another terrible cast by Kelly, now that DOA is casting she feels even worse, since he is also new and really really good.....
I mean how can GOM choose a caster that does not even speak english for the english stream?
I don't have anything against any of the casters, but i don't like the synergy between them. They're both making comments and no analysis. The whole 1 make analysis the other tells what's happening on the game is a really a good system, however they're both just telling what's going on and no analysis what so ever.
On game 1 Alicia vs Supernova on Crossfire SE, alicia sent the scouting probe around ~20 food to check the expansion behind his natural to check if there was any possible Proxy Stargate and Kelly said "Alicia checking with his probe for a possible hidden expansion". Regardless of being the only expansion the probe checked and being a common spot for a proxy stargate. This kind of error is acceptable to the caster to do, but whoever is making the analysis is there to correct him/her and help figuring what's gonna happen to increase the excitement.
TL.DR: I miss Artosis on Code A days! =(
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Man, this day would have been so much better with bo5's
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EPT
