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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about? How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
Well most of them speak english that well, its not that easy for them to integrate, and expecting them to learn a new language so they can integrate with a starcraft comunity (of less skilled players lål : D) is kind of derp. Obviously it would be a wonderful world if everyone in every country had awesome english but sadly thats not the case. They are pro-gamers so ofcourse they go where the money is, this is no more or less true for korean players than it is for american or european players though.
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On March 15 2011 12:49 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW. My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners. Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself.
I agree that in general, I like seeing NA/EU players more because I can relate to them and learn about them on TL. I didn't bother to watch the IEM finals, for instance.
However, I LOVE seeing foreigners play Koreans, and see if they can beat them. That's why IdrA and Jinro GSL games get so much more attention here than GSL games between Koreans.
It would be much more interesting for me to see KiWiKaKi take on Julyzerg than KiWiKaKi versus Dimaga, for instance.
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On March 15 2011 12:41 Gooey wrote:
This is the biggest prizepool for a starcraft 2 tournament in the entire world.
Is this true? I've been looking for clarification on this for awhile but no one answered my questions in the official thread. Prize pool is 100k for the first tournament and 400k for the league. GSL open seasons were 170k for the open seasons and 150k for the code S tournament. GSL league prize pool is over 1 million, and I think the big huge tournament at the end is over 200k. MLG finals is over 100k (i think) too.
NASL hasn't said anything about their prize pool other than it is 100k for the first two and 200k for the third to make 400k total.
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I just don't understand the people who don't think having Western players going up against Koreans every day is not going to make for great television. You don't think the internet will go WILD when, I dunno, kas, takes a game and/or series off JulyZerg?! NASL will have to strike a balance, and I'd be surprised if there are more than 5 Koreans in the league (10 absolute max), and that means they'll inevitably lose.
You remember how some Korean teams used to specially game plan for Idra because he was the white guy? Well, people will game plan the Korean players just as hard, and when one of 'em goes down, people will LOVE it. It'll be awesome.
And for the record, JULYZERG in the NORTH AMERICAN STAR LEAGUE. How can any fan of SC2 POSSIBLY be against that??
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Finished watching a lot of the more high profile interview vod things, some were pretty funny I'd have to say. Myself I would have no problem if they invited some of the less accomplished players but who are popular in the english speaking sc2 scene. This will of course lower the credibility and the talent level of the league. As far as koreans having to form relationships with people I don't think its necessary, I for one just want high level good games, and yes of course they play for money they are professionals after all. I'll still watch but would be hesitant to pay to watch some pretty good players going against each other.
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On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:
...Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW.
But this gap will be as big as BW unless the non-Koreans start taking SC2 more seriously and practice as the Koreans do. Korean training own white dude's training.
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Woah, those ST guys spoke english pretty well ^^ I hope to see them in!
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On March 15 2011 12:52 Aquafresh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:41 Gooey wrote:
This is the biggest prizepool for a starcraft 2 tournament in the entire world.
Is this true? I've been looking for clarification on this for awhile but no one answered my questions in the official thread. Prize pool is 100k for the first tournament and 400k for the league. GSL open seasons were 170k for the open seasons and 150k for the code S tournament. GSL league prize pool is over 1 million, and I think the big huge tournament at the end is over 200k. MLG finals is over 100k (i think) too. NASL hasn't said anything about their prize pool other than it is 100k for the first two and 200k for the third to make 400k total.
Here's the breakdown of the prize money for all the major tournaments. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190136
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On March 15 2011 12:49 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:46 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament. If I turned on my TV to watch SC2 I'd expect to see the best players playing. Imo there is no skill worth watching in MLG/IEM etc, when it pales in comparison to what you can get watching GSL. Once they step up their game and show they can actual give them a challenge I'll watch foreigners. Till then Korean or go home.
How knowledgeable are you in regards to the top players in korea and the top players outside of it? IMO the game of sc2 has a very small gap between the top players in korea and the top players outside of it. I don't think our top players are getting enough credit, and I believe koreans are being put on a pedestal in some sense. Sure they have proven themselves, but when things like NASL are announced, maybe measures will be taken in NA in order to prepare (pro gaming houses, higher commitment). If our top teams practiced the same way, and the same amount as the koreans, there wouldnt be much difference. This could spark that change.
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meh I wouldn't be surprised if NASL reserved 50% of the spots for Koreans. That seems like a good/fair system.
fyi I don't like the NA hate. we aren't known for RTS... we are known for dominating FPS.
2 cents 
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The point isn't that we are BETTER than Koreans its more that unless you let foreigners play tournaments without Koreans in them (MAJOR TOURNAMENTS) then we will continue to have dayjobs. Only when it is possible/realized that one can make a living off playing starcraft all day will more serious prohouses be created. If the Koreans really cared about the NASL they would make their own video and at least make a good effort at trying to get accepted into the NASL (hell, if someone wants to go play in the GSL they have to go to korea and live there, all a korean has to do to play in the NASL is read a few words off of a page their coach gives them for 60 seconds and show up).
I'm not saying we should exclude koreans from all our tournaments, but its hard to emotionally attach yourself to players like these and as a result both the spectators and the viewers would be hurt by having a majorly korean tournament. Yes we are doing better than in BW, but only as a result of more exposure and tournaments within north america/europe. The top 50 players would probably look just like the GSL with different commentators and maps.
What you guys dont realize is that the issue isn't having a few Koreans in there and having some foreigner vs korean showmatch its having the RO8 with 7 koreans and 1 north american. As a sponsor I wouldn't be overly thrilled, especially if my target market was north american based.
There are a hell of a lot of ignorant posts from people that do not have nearly the same understanding of the korean vs foreign scene, I love watching foreigners play against koreans I don't love watching players I've never talked to or played with going up against other players I've never played or talked with for an entire tournament.
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You have summarized it perfectly. NASL has a choice. They can be a real professional starcraft 2 league or an amateur one. There are some people that prefer amateur leagues, but the vast majority prefer professional leagues. If NASL wants to be credible they need to invite a sizeable amount of koreans into the league.
Well it is a chicken or the egg type argument. By that I mean, do we just not have the people here who are dedicated to being pros, and Koreans are, or is it that we need the money/prize pool to create a situation where people can practice 10-12 hours a day and not have to go to school, or work to make a living.
Personally, I think the reason you have true Korean pros is simply because the money and structure is there for it. Right now, it is not easy outside of Korea to dedicate your life to SC2 unless you get bankrolled somehow, or are one of the very few managing to get some money and sponsorships.
This to me is a huge first step in seeing more "pro" gamers in the NA scene. The question is will there be a fan base, an advertising stream, and a flow of money to basically create what has happened in Korea here? If so, what might start as "amateur" will very quickly turn pro.
And further, keep in mind this is a business venture. It is about interest and viewers as well as high quality play. I'd much rather watch people I don't have to have an interview translated with, even if the quality of play isn't as good. To be honest, I just want to be entertained. When I watch MLG events or weekend NA tournaments I don't sit there thinking, "wow what a bunch of amateurs Korea is so much better and more fun to watch!!" The games to me are just as entertaining, sometimes even more because the play is more creative and the mistakes that happen lead to more entertaining games. Watching Koreans execute perfect builds in coin flip games that last 12 minutes isn't my idea of entertainment.
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On March 15 2011 12:52 hiyo_bye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:49 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW. My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners. Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself. I agree that in general, I like seeing NA/EU players more because I can relate to them and learn about them on TL. I didn't bother to watch the IEM finals, for instance. However, I LOVE seeing foreigners play Koreans, and see if they can beat them. That's why IdrA and Jinro GSL games get so much more attention here than GSL games between Koreans. It would be much more interesting for me to see KiWiKaKi take on Julyzerg than KiWiKaKi versus Dimaga, for instance.
Which final would you rather see in NASL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg? For me it's the former. I'd rather see a top 4 of Kiwi/Idra/Naniwa/qxc/Select/other top foreigners than MarineKing/MC/Mvp/Nestea/July/etc.
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On March 15 2011 12:46 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament.
If you want to watch North Americans and Europeans play for money in a big tournament, then there is a league for you. It is called MLG. They have a smaller prize pool that isn't as attractive or financially enticing as the GSL in Korea, therefore the koreans will most likely not attend the event. It is exactly about the money. Why would the offer more money than the current largest league in the entire world with the highest cash pool in the entire world? Because they themselves said that they want to be the ones with the world premiere league showcasing the best talent in the entire world. Money talks.
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On March 15 2011 12:55 Dramborleg wrote:meh I wouldn't be surprised if NASL reserved 50% of the spots for Koreans. That seems like a good/fair system. fyi I don't like the NA hate. we aren't known for RTS... we are known for dominating FPS. 2 cents
I think this would be a fair system to reserve about 40%-50% to koreans. Though, I would count the korean trained foriegners like Jinro in the group. Similar breakdown to TSL3.
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On March 15 2011 12:57 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:55 Dramborleg wrote:meh I wouldn't be surprised if NASL reserved 50% of the spots for Koreans. That seems like a good/fair system. fyi I don't like the NA hate. we aren't known for RTS... we are known for dominating FPS. 2 cents I think this would be a fair system to reserve about 40%-50% to koreans. Though, I would coun the korean trained foriegners like Jinro in the group. Similar breakdown to TSL3.
I think if it's any more than 10 koreans it would be absolutely terrible to watch the top 16. I wouldn't mind seeing 3-5 just to make it interesting, but any more and I'm not sure how much I'd watch top 16.
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On March 15 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:52 hiyo_bye wrote:On March 15 2011 12:49 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW. My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners. Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself. I agree that in general, I like seeing NA/EU players more because I can relate to them and learn about them on TL. I didn't bother to watch the IEM finals, for instance. However, I LOVE seeing foreigners play Koreans, and see if they can beat them. That's why IdrA and Jinro GSL games get so much more attention here than GSL games between Koreans. It would be much more interesting for me to see KiWiKaKi take on Julyzerg than KiWiKaKi versus Dimaga, for instance. Which final would you rather see in NASL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg? For me it's the former. I'd rather see a top 4 of Kiwi/Idra/Naniwa/qxc/Select/other top foreigners than MarineKing/MC/Mvp/Nestea/July/etc.
I'd rather see an IdrA/KiWiKaKi v MC/July Finals.
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Just for reference, this is from the NASL mission statement. I wanted to emphasize something:
"We know that you’ve been waiting for something like this to happen for a long time. We want to take a moment to explain our long-term goals for both the North American Star League and eSports as a whole.
NASL has been our dream since we first saw foreigners travel to Korea. We stayed up late to watch those epic matches, we followed the forum coverage and the live report threads. But it wasn’t enough.
It had to happen here.
We knew we had to go big or go home. We needed an epic prize pool. We needed the best players. Most importantly, we needed the passion and excitement that comes from competition at the highest level; from watching two masters battle it out knowing that only one will win... "
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On March 15 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:52 hiyo_bye wrote:On March 15 2011 12:49 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW. My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners. Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself. I agree that in general, I like seeing NA/EU players more because I can relate to them and learn about them on TL. I didn't bother to watch the IEM finals, for instance. However, I LOVE seeing foreigners play Koreans, and see if they can beat them. That's why IdrA and Jinro GSL games get so much more attention here than GSL games between Koreans. It would be much more interesting for me to see KiWiKaKi take on Julyzerg than KiWiKaKi versus Dimaga, for instance. Which final would you rather see in NASL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg? For me it's the former. I'd rather see a top 4 of Kiwi/Idra/Naniwa/qxc/Select/other top foreigners than MarineKing/MC/Mvp/Nestea/July/etc.
IdrA is a korean trained foreigner. So, your argument would be invalid.
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On March 15 2011 12:55 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:49 Zooper31 wrote:On March 15 2011 12:46 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament. If I turned on my TV to watch SC2 I'd expect to see the best players playing. Imo there is no skill worth watching in MLG/IEM etc, when it pales in comparison to what you can get watching GSL. Once they step up their game and show they can actual give them a challenge I'll watch foreigners. Till then Korean or go home. How knowledgeable are you in regards to the top players in korea and the top players outside of it? IMO the game of sc2 has a very small gap between the top players in korea and the top players outside of it. I don't think our top players are getting enough credit, and I believe koreans are being put on a pedestal in some sense. Sure they have proven themselves, but when things like NASL are announced, maybe measures will be taken in NA in order to prepare (pro gaming houses, higher commitment). If our top teams practiced the same way, and the same amount as the koreans, there wouldnt be much difference. This could spark that change.
I realy hope measures are taken to prepare like you said for the tournament. I would love to watch people I can really relate to play. I agree if they trained the same they could compete without much problem. But atm they arn't and not allowing Koreans into the tournament is only gonna allow them to contine thinking that way. Why practice harder if I never have a reason to? Invite Koreans in and make the foreigners change their ways or die off.
edit: I guess we have different opinions on the matter. You and Pokebunny enjoy watching for the entertainment and relateability and I enjoy watching for the insane skill. I guess we'll see which direction the NASL goes for. They can't have both.
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EPT
