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On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about?
How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
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I think by having Koreans in the league, and have our NA/EU players be competitive, and take a few games off of them, Koreans will start taking us seriously.
I would definitely be rooting for NA players to be making the finals and whatnot, but ultimately the best players still deserve to win.
Take for instance, the NBA, where the Spurs won several championships last decade. They're one of the most boring teams to watch in the league, but they deserved the championships because they were the best team, and that's that.
That said, I do think many NA/EU players are capable of taking on the likes of July Zerg, so I'll be anxious to see upsets like that. It will make our players more relevant to Koreans.
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This is the biggest prizepool for a starcraft 2 tournament in the entire world. Why on earth would people, whos profession of choice is to play starcraft 2 professionally, not want to play in the biggest league in the whole world? Whether you like it or not, the very best athletes in the world tend to want to participate in the most rewarding leagues and tournaments possible. The very best baseball players in the world play in the MLB. The very best basketball players play in the NBA. The very best football players in the world play in the NFL. Regardless of where people originate from, the very best players are always going to be in those leagues because of the financial opportunity. To get the best possible players, you have to have the best offer. Why else would they have the largest cash prize pool in the entire world?
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On March 15 2011 12:39 Looms wrote:
One of the problems here is that there aren't that many true progamers in NA. Sure, a lot of people call themselves one, but their lifestyles and dedication level cannot compare to that of the Korean progamers. I'm not blaming the players, because the situation in NA isn't like Korea at all.
If NASL wants to have an amateur league connotation to it due a roster comprised mostly of amateur NA/EU gamers, then so be it, but a true progaming league is going to have several people from the best SC2 country in the world.
You have summarized it perfectly. NASL has a choice. They can be a real professional starcraft 2 league or an amateur one. There are some people that prefer amateur leagues, but the vast majority prefer professional leagues. If NASL wants to be credible they need to invite a sizeable amount of koreans into the league.
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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about? How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
Is being friends a prerequisite now? By cutting them off with the argument 'they aren't involved enough' basically perpetuates the problem. How are they to be more involved if they are excluded?
Do you even think your arguments over?
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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about? How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
Why would they practice on our servers? It's a known fact the Korean ladder is much better, why play on a worse ladder? Why does anyone participate in tournaments? They do it for the money and fame.
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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:
How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners?
Relax. Seriously, you need to chill for a moment. This competition is the part of the beginning, not the pinnacle, of western e-sports. For our scene to take it seriously we need the top level of competition, without stifling our growth too much (i.e. including some Koreans), and in the future if the game grows and becomes even more successful there will be plenty of opportunities for everybody.
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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about? How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
Why should they come to our server? They have the best training environment in there pro houses. Mabye being in a tournament with people outside korea using strats they did not recognize they would practice on the other servers. With the korean server at this point in time being all around the superior place to play and train how can you criticize them?
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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about? How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
Why would they practice on NA or EU when the Korean ladder is supposedly the best ladder of them all? Also, saying they're just in it for the money is absolutely idiotic. I'm sure most Pro players, Korean or not, are NOT in it for the money; that'd be silly.
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He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages...
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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about? How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
Xeph programer's stream.
Description: Xeph's Progamer Streaming! This stream "officially" mirrors Korean Starcraft II progamers. Korean progamers don't stream in Korea, because it is too risky; other progamers can easily see his first-person-view and easily analyze the streamer. So please do not record this stream, progamers who stream with my channel is doing his special favor to Teamliquid. Please be nice to them.
They have formed a relationship with the team liquid community. Also, have you been watching Huk's stream. MC, thewind, and others interact with the foriegners a lot.
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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about? How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
Furthermore, NA is the least skilled out of the three major servers of EU and Korea. Even artosis and tasteless have repeated this fact. Why would they practice on a less skilled server? It doesn't make any sense.
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I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament.
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On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me.
So you're saying that TL is "a part of the scene" in Korea, and so they should be allowed to play in Korean competitions -- but unless Koreans are making a "reasonable effort to participate" in North America, they should not be allowed to play.
Does anyone find it ridiculously xenophobic that Korea opened their doors to competitive Westerners to participate and be apart of their professional BW and SC2 games, yet here we are shutting our doors at Koreans?
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On March 15 2011 12:40 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:34 ptbl wrote:On March 15 2011 12:30 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't want an outright ban on Koreans, I just want them to make a reasonable effort to participate in the scene if they want to play our tournaments. Liquid players are LIVING AND PLAYING CONSTANTLY with a Korean team during their time in Korea. If Koreans were to become part of the scene, that would be fantastic. People like SeleCT are totally cool. I'm just afraid that if 5-6 Koreans are invited, and they all make the semis, that will be a rather boring semi for me. They are becoming part of the scene. They just participated in IEM. They are participating in TSL3. They have participated in two FXOpen tournaments. They have participated in Dreamhack. What are you talking about? How many times have they formed relationships with foreigners? Do they log on and practice on our servers? No. They do it for money.
So because they want to win prize money in one of the biggest leagues, that means they should be excluded? And by your logic, excluding the Koreans will allocate more prize money to the NA/EU players (since the Koreans would have insta-secured all the top spots in the league), then that will make the NA/EU level elevate toward that of Korea? How does this work?
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On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages...
You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW.
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On March 15 2011 12:46 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament.
I want to see people who practice and take the game seriously, and frankly only the top 3-5 foreigners teams do that. Heck, of all the teams I only know of one that actually has a coach-type role who analyses their teams replays and gives feedback and analysis... let alone a proper pro-house setup.
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On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW.
My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners.
Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself.
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On March 15 2011 12:46 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament.
If I turned on my TV to watch SC2 I'd expect to see the best players playing. Imo there is no skill worth watching in MLG/IEM etc, when it pales in comparison to what you can get watching GSL. Once they step up their game and show they can actual give them a challenge I'll watch foreigners. Till then Korean or go home.
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On March 15 2011 12:46 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament.
I think the vast majority would choose the koreans vs the koreans. Just look at broodwar. The korean scene was way more popular than the foreigner scene, even to foreigner themselves. The reason was that everyone knew the highest skill level and the best players were from Korea.
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EPT
