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On March 15 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:
Which final would you rather see in NASL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg? For me it's the former. I'd rather see a top 4 of Kiwi/Idra/Naniwa/qxc/Select/other top foreigners than MarineKing/MC/Mvp/Nestea/July/etc.
Which final would you rather see in GSL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg?
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On March 15 2011 12:57 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:46 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament. If you want to watch North Americans and Europeans play for money in a big tournament, then there is a league for you. It is called MLG. They have a smaller prize pool that isn't as attractive or financially enticing as the GSL in Korea, therefore the koreans will most likely not attend the event. It is exactly about the money. Why would the offer more money than the current largest league in the entire world with the highest cash pool in the entire world? Because they themselves said that they want to be the ones with the world premiere league showcasing the best talent in the entire world. Money talks.
If MLG was online koreans would play. If NASL was offline they would not play. If GSL was online foreigners would play (and there would still be the same amount of koreans in it  )
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It is great to see the Startale guys' english skills. I hope they all make it in.
Also: this thread sounds pretty hilariously xenophobic. "What would you rather see in this tourney...AMURRICANS or a bunch of FURRINERS?"
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On March 15 2011 12:55 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:
The point isn't that we are BETTER than Koreans its more that unless you let foreigners play tournaments without Koreans in them (MAJOR TOURNAMENTS) then we will continue to have dayjobs. Only when it is possible/realized that one can make a living off playing starcraft all day will more serious prohouses be created. If the Koreans really cared about the NASL they would make their own video and at least make a good effort at trying to get accepted into the NASL (hell, if someone wants to go play in the GSL they have to go to korea and live there, all a korean has to do to play in the NASL is read a few words off of a page their coach gives them for 60 seconds and show up).
I'm not saying we should exclude koreans from all our tournaments, but its hard to emotionally attach yourself to players like these and as a result both the spectators and the viewers would be hurt by having a majorly korean tournament. Yes we are doing better than in BW, but only as a result of more exposure and tournaments within north america/europe. The top 50 players would probably look just like the GSL with different commentators and maps.
What you guys dont realize is that the issue isn't having a few Koreans in there and having some foreigner vs korean showmatch its having the RO8 with 7 koreans and 1 north american. As a sponsor I wouldn't be overly thrilled, especially if my target market was north american based.
There are a hell of a lot of ignorant posts from people that do not have nearly the same understanding of the korean vs foreign scene, I love watching foreigners play against koreans I don't love watching players I've never talked to or played with going up against other players I've never played or talked with for an entire tournament.
There is no point trying to grow the foreigner scene unless we take it as seriously as the Koreans with regard to training. This is what it comes down to for me. Bringing Koreans will force that culture, hopefully.
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On March 15 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:52 hiyo_bye wrote:On March 15 2011 12:49 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW. My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners. Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself. I agree that in general, I like seeing NA/EU players more because I can relate to them and learn about them on TL. I didn't bother to watch the IEM finals, for instance. However, I LOVE seeing foreigners play Koreans, and see if they can beat them. That's why IdrA and Jinro GSL games get so much more attention here than GSL games between Koreans. It would be much more interesting for me to see KiWiKaKi take on Julyzerg than KiWiKaKi versus Dimaga, for instance. Which final would you rather see in NASL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg? For me it's the former. I'd rather see a top 4 of Kiwi/Idra/Naniwa/qxc/Select/other top foreigners than MarineKing/MC/Mvp/Nestea/July/etc.
I think you're underestimating the foreign players. Actually, both matchups would be equally exciting to me, but that's not really the point.
I would much rather see a KiWiKaki versus MC or IdrA versus JulyZerg than Kiwi v Idra or MC v July. You get to root for the foreigner that way, and become much more emotionally attached to the game. Kiwi v IdrA or July v MC is something that's not tooo rare to see on clan wars or TL streams, but Kiwi/Naniwa/qxc/select versus MKP/MC/MVP/Nestea is something that is very hard to find.
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On March 15 2011 13:01 ThE_OsToJiY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:57 Gooey wrote:On March 15 2011 12:46 NrG.NeverExpo wrote:
I think most people arguing here aren't quite sure of what they are talking about in terms of e-sports growth in north america, or anywhere outside of korea. Sure, it is awesome to see koreans play against each other. They are the best, and even in BW that was the most popular form of starcraft watching by the masses.
But picture this. You are with your friends on a saturday night, and u sit down and turn on your tv and flip to a channel that is featuring sc2. Would you like this to happen? Would you like to see foreigners competing and making a living off of this game, like the koreans have in the past? Or are you JUST interested in watching koreans against koreans? If so, then don't even post here. Maybe there is a GSL thread where u can discuss the progress of koreans playing agains teach other in every major tournament ever made.
Im pretty sure the intentions of this league were aimed more at creating a professional form of media that allowed foreigners to showcase their skill, sure u can add a couple good koreans to see if we foreigners really can keep up, but i doubt they named it the North American Starleague so that it could become another korean tournament. If you want to watch North Americans and Europeans play for money in a big tournament, then there is a league for you. It is called MLG. They have a smaller prize pool that isn't as attractive or financially enticing as the GSL in Korea, therefore the koreans will most likely not attend the event. It is exactly about the money. Why would the offer more money than the current largest league in the entire world with the highest cash pool in the entire world? Because they themselves said that they want to be the ones with the world premiere league showcasing the best talent in the entire world. Money talks. If MLG was online koreans would play. If NASL was offline they would not play. If GSL was online foreigners would play (and there would still be the same amount of koreans in it )
IF GSL was online, I doubt we'd have seen many more qualifiers than we have already seen, because the only ones committed to training an appropriate amount to be called a pro-gamer are already in Korea (with a few exceptions).
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2 Koreans per division (totalling 10) would be around right by me.
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I'm going to go to sleep, so I can wake up early to watch the GSL's up and down matches. Anyway, let's wait and see if more Koreans did apply. If there aren't anymore, then our whole argument was moot anyway. Goodnight.
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Canada676 Posts
I cannot believe that there are people complaining about Korean players because they aren't a part of the North American scene. With a negative response like this, I can understand fully why some Korean players wouldn't want to be apart of the NA scene, if they're treated like second class citizens.
Gomtv and many other Korean teams and organizations have been welcoming to Western talent, even going so far as to open an English stream just for us, and hiring English commentators to show their support for a global e-sports league. TLAF was also welcomed into Korea and joining the OGS house.
I can't possibly understand anyone that complains about Koreans not putting in their effort to become part of the North American scene. Instead of using NASL as an opportunity for Koreans to get involved with the NA scene and open their own gaming houses, some posters in this thread are proposing we put a quota on them. Or restrict it to certain teams.
That's a step backwards, not just for the e-sport scene, but for progressive social values too. Starcraft is not supposed to be about race, nationality, or what language you speak. It's supposed to be about how good you are at it.
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On March 15 2011 13:00 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:52 hiyo_bye wrote:On March 15 2011 12:49 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW. My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners. Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself. I agree that in general, I like seeing NA/EU players more because I can relate to them and learn about them on TL. I didn't bother to watch the IEM finals, for instance. However, I LOVE seeing foreigners play Koreans, and see if they can beat them. That's why IdrA and Jinro GSL games get so much more attention here than GSL games between Koreans. It would be much more interesting for me to see KiWiKaKi take on Julyzerg than KiWiKaKi versus Dimaga, for instance. Which final would you rather see in NASL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg? For me it's the former. I'd rather see a top 4 of Kiwi/Idra/Naniwa/qxc/Select/other top foreigners than MarineKing/MC/Mvp/Nestea/July/etc. IdrA is a korean trained foreigner. So, your argument would be invalid.
I said nothing about training. Idra has relationships with foreigners and ingame history. This all makes for awesome exciting matches.
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The most important point in my opinion why Koreans have to be allowed, is the general e-sports ecology.
The Koreans did much for e-sports, GOM started the first REALLY big league and they did a lot to get foreigners in.
Now the west has its league with a really big pricepool and we just say "Nay, we don't want Koreans dominating us".
E-Sports is quite established in Korea, but the potential in the western world is far bigger. We can't cut the Koreans out and establish our leagues with "our players" and maybe bigger pricepools in the future while the best players are not allowed in. E-sports has to go global.
(I'm not saying Korean participants can't be limited, at least for now)
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On March 15 2011 13:06 ptbl wrote:
I'm going to go to sleep, so I can wake up early to watch the GSL's up and down matches. Anyway, let's wait and see if more Koreans did apply. If there aren't anymore, then our whole argument was moot anyway. Goodnight.
heres to hoping when you get up, 50 more Koreans app videos show up and TL crashes in outrage/joy.
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They meet the requirements to play - you can't ban someone for being too good.
Sure they might dominate but that actually will promote players to try and best the Koreans. Playing with the best is the most efficient way to get better and good motivation too.
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On March 15 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2011 12:52 hiyo_bye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:49 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW. My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners. Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself. I agree that in general, I like seeing NA/EU players more because I can relate to them and learn about them on TL. I didn't bother to watch the IEM finals, for instance. However, I LOVE seeing foreigners play Koreans, and see if they can beat them. That's why IdrA and Jinro GSL games get so much more attention here than GSL games between Koreans. It would be much more interesting for me to see KiWiKaKi take on Julyzerg than KiWiKaKi versus Dimaga, for instance. Which final would you rather see in NASL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg? For me it's the former. I'd rather see a top 4 of Kiwi/Idra/Naniwa/qxc/Select/other top foreigners than MarineKing/MC/Mvp/Nestea/July/etc.
Thats subjective. An equal number of people could say the opposite. You need better arguments for capping koreans then that.
limiting spots is a slippery slope.
When the chinese scene explodes, we cap them too?
Or if the europeans dominate?
It will only lower the quality of the tournament while just creating artificial drama with "homegrown" players finishing higher then they should. The poster who said you have an all or none type of situation where u have mostly koreans (INITIALLY) with fewer foreigners, or an amateur tournament is right.
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I think 10ish would be perfect for me personally. I'm not saying it's the best idea, but I get great enjoyment seeing how foreigners stack up against Koreans. But someone stated an idea for 50% Koreans...and I actually think this is pretty bad. Much of the hype in SC2 comes from the idea that Western E-sports is growing and America/Canada/Europe have somewhat of a chance. When that ideal dies, so will the money supporting NASL (only imo of course).
So yeah...I would like to see approximately 10ish Koreans as Foreigner vs Korean games seem to generate the most excitement, viewers, and money; thus helping e-sports grow, as well as foreigner competition.
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This thread has gone really off topic. I think it's important to note that in the NASL player videos, a lot of foreigners have stated they want to play against Koreans to show they are skilled enough to keep up. If this can lead to NA/EU versus Korea rivalries, I think that'd be GREAT!
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Just so you know... "North America" Star League
Europeans are also considered foreigners... unless I didn't get that memo...
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Why are so many people bitching about a limit for koreans etc...? There is a reason why koreans weren't allowed in tsl (especially tsl 2) and no one complained. Even if these reasons don't completely transfer for the nasl they are still accurate (keep in mind what the people from nasl said about starting smth for NA.
On topic:
Still a lot of videos missing i really wanted to see. :/
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2011 13:08 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 13:00 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 12:56 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:52 hiyo_bye wrote:On March 15 2011 12:49 Pokebunny wrote:On March 15 2011 12:47 bennyaus wrote:On March 15 2011 12:44 nvs. wrote:
He's just going to ignore all these logical responses and throw out another argument. He's literally had like 6 different stances over the course of 2 pages... You can sort of see why he is upset, and I can see that many people will be upset when they don't make it in. Heck, in this field, I think someone like EGInControl would struggle to call himself a top 50 applicant. This competition will be the first of many opportunities, and frankly the scene needs to take itself seriously and build a pro-house/nuturing & coaching culture like the Koreans if we want to compete. In that sense, this competition comes almost too early for the scene and therefore the Koreans are ahead because of that. Still, I think it will be a lot less one-sided than people say... Only the top 20 Koreans seem close to unbeatable but beyond that they are not that scary like BW. My opinion is based on me as a spectator, not as a player. Whether or not I am participating in the league (I don't expect to get in) I'd be much more entertained by foreigners. Many of you have brought up good points, and I'd just like to say I'm not ignoring them - I'm trying to get a better perspective for myself. I agree that in general, I like seeing NA/EU players more because I can relate to them and learn about them on TL. I didn't bother to watch the IEM finals, for instance. However, I LOVE seeing foreigners play Koreans, and see if they can beat them. That's why IdrA and Jinro GSL games get so much more attention here than GSL games between Koreans. It would be much more interesting for me to see KiWiKaKi take on Julyzerg than KiWiKaKi versus Dimaga, for instance. Which final would you rather see in NASL: KiWiKaKi vs IdrA or MC vs JulyZerg? For me it's the former. I'd rather see a top 4 of Kiwi/Idra/Naniwa/qxc/Select/other top foreigners than MarineKing/MC/Mvp/Nestea/July/etc. IdrA is a korean trained foreigner. So, your argument would be invalid. I said nothing about training. Idra has relationships with foreigners and ingame history. This all makes for awesome exciting matches.
What is this talk of 'relationships' supposed to be about? This is a tournament: it is about competition and money. 'Relationships', if you mean rivalries and history and the like, develop IN tournaments. So give it a chance. I think it would be awesome if, for example, Bomber and Tyler developed a rivalry. And if you mean 'they don't speak my language' or 'they don't live here' or 'they aren't my friends on battle.net' then your point is xenophobic nonsense.
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Well, it's the "North American" star league... that means no europeans, no koreans, no south americans, no africans, only people from NA right? /sarcasm
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EPT
