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On March 02 2011 06:32 godemperor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:27 durza wrote:Just got home, disappointed to see that foreigners couldn't even take a game off of ace  . Don't worry, moon is playing tonight, I will be surprised if he qualifies.
If moon manages to top 3 in Group B, I will be severely disappointed unless he pulls an amazing turn around. On the issue of Ace, I think he is a pretty up and down player (i.e. like Sjow? chill out, I'm not making a comment on skill comparison between the two, just in performance) - I mean pulling a 3-kill against TSL in team league is commendable, but his W/L ratio overall is still in the red in Korea.
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On March 02 2011 05:22 Shinobi1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:56 FrostShadow wrote:On March 02 2011 04:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Fact is foreigners try to hard to believe their own fairytale about skill balance S-Korea vs Westerners. It's not a fairy tale. When you see 2 great Koreans (TOP and InCa) at dreamhack perform less than stellar and 2 foreigners in the ro8 in GSL you realize it's not too big a skill difference. sc2 is really random right now, just look at this GSL. I'm sick of these incredibly shortsighted people make giant assumptions based on a tiny bit of data. And what does it say when countless foreigners who are considered to be "amongst the top" are not managing to qualify for GSL? Pretty much only tournaments who have a decent balance of Korean and Westerner players is FXOpen. See whats happening there http://challonge.com/fxopenis1I'll go even as far as to say this. If Jinro or HuK do not win GSL within 2 seasons no foreigner ever will (unless someone gets the privilege to join a Korean pro team and live/train with them, not to mention the language barrier). It's just a pipe dream to believe that someone who plays SC2 as a hobby can be as good as someone who dedicates his whole life to SC2.
Countless top foreigners? Who are these?
Not Sjow, not White-ra, not DeMuslim, not Dimaga, not Kas. Am I leaving a some top foreigner out that has never even tried to qualify?
Idra, Jinro and TLO are the best players to go to Korea and all of them did/have done pretty well. Huk needs to win one more bo3 and he's in the up/down matches for Code S. Ret lost in the first round but so did Ace and Squirtle.
If it's Ace vs Squirtle in the finals I'll jump on the wagon and say that every Korean player is twice as good as a foreigner. But I don't think that'll happen.
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On March 02 2011 06:32 godemperor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:27 durza wrote:Just got home, disappointed to see that foreigners couldn't even take a game off of ace . Don't worry, moon is playing tonight.
hahaha, so mean ^^
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I don't see why it surprises people that Korean players are simply better. SC2 is like any other sport and the attitude and culture of Korea fosters great players unlike any other place in the world. In Korea SC2 is truly regarded as a sport and treated that way. In EU and NA even the top players generally cannot devote their entire life to training for SC2, they have other obligations because it is not a legitimate career (at least by the standards of our culture). It's like IdrA said, the relative inadequacy of Western training in regards to SC2 is the biggest factor in the performance difference, not innate skill. Korean teams practice together as if they are an NBA or NFL team. The Westerners in Korea do not have the same luxury. It's no surprise to anyone when USA Basketball stomps through international tournaments. This is not because Americans are naturally better at Basketball but because in the US, Basketball is regarded as a true profession. That is why you see many foreigners in the NBA (they are akin to Jinro/HuK) but it is still mainly dominated by US born players. It's no surprise that the only foreigners making runs in the GSL are from the Liquid/OGS house (a real competitive sports environment). It is like Shinobi1982 said, until SC2 and E-sports in general reaches the esteem it has in Korea there will always be a skill gap.
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is there a vod of idra vs morrow?
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Come on dudes leave this EU / KR shit.
Korea was always temple for sc:bw, they got biggest price pool, they got trainers, houses for teams to practise all the freaking time, so normaly they will be better overall; but when someone from EU like Jinro/Ret or even from NA like Idra and Huk went to Korea to have same practise time they do pretty damn good.
And even today day9 sad that Ace was playing crazy and won milion to zero, that was kinda a suprise since he is Coda A, and Idra is Code S, still Ace own him 2:0.
Yes they are good, but not that far away tbh. I dont think we gona have Ace vs Squirtle or Moon finals.
Dreamhack was same story with TOP and other dude, they where pretty damn good, but i was eu vs eu final.
btw today was one of the most entertainment day of my sc2 history
gg`s and hope for same 2morrow
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On March 02 2011 06:47 SmoKim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:32 godemperor wrote:On March 02 2011 06:27 durza wrote:Just got home, disappointed to see that foreigners couldn't even take a game off of ace . Don't worry, moon is playing tonight. hahaha, so mean ^^
You edited my post, so mean ^^
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On March 02 2011 06:38 Poocs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:22 Shinobi1982 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:56 FrostShadow wrote:On March 02 2011 04:52 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Fact is foreigners try to hard to believe their own fairytale about skill balance S-Korea vs Westerners. It's not a fairy tale. When you see 2 great Koreans (TOP and InCa) at dreamhack perform less than stellar and 2 foreigners in the ro8 in GSL you realize it's not too big a skill difference. sc2 is really random right now, just look at this GSL. I'm sick of these incredibly shortsighted people make giant assumptions based on a tiny bit of data. And what does it say when countless foreigners who are considered to be "amongst the top" are not managing to qualify for GSL? Pretty much only tournaments who have a decent balance of Korean and Westerner players is FXOpen. See whats happening there http://challonge.com/fxopenis1I'll go even as far as to say this. If Jinro or HuK do not win GSL within 2 seasons no foreigner ever will (unless someone gets the privilege to join a Korean pro team and live/train with them, not to mention the language barrier). It's just a pipe dream to believe that someone who plays SC2 as a hobby can be as good as someone who dedicates his whole life to SC2. Countless top foreigners? Who are these? Not Sjow, not White-ra, not DeMuslim, not Dimaga, not Kas. Am I leaving a some top foreigner out that has never even tried to qualify? Idra, Jinro and TLO are the best players to go to Korea and all of them did/have done pretty well. Huk needs to win one more bo3 and he's in the up/down matches for Code S. Ret lost in the first round but so did Ace and Squirtle. If it's Ace vs Squirtle in the finals I'll jump on the wagon and say that every Korean player is twice as good as a foreigner. But I don't think that'll happen. HuK won one BO3 so far, seeing as he was given a free invite. He didn't qualify.
Regardless, yes, some foreigners can compete with Koreans. Those foreigners (Jinro and IdrA) are considered to be the best two Western players in the world, but they aren't the best in Korea. That means something.
I'm not saying Koreans are inherently better, but they practice more and have more refined strategies which combined make them superior players to foreigners. Look at almost any tournament or matchup they've played against foreign players excluding the two best (Jinro and IdrA).
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Am I suprised a player who can't get past first round in GSL code A is dominating a european tournament? Nope. Just watch the difference in play. Count the little mistakes.
In baseball, americans are simply the best. We train hard and we grow up with the sport. Even the best japanese players (beside ichiro) are mediocore by american standards. There are many instances of AAA players going to foreign countries and dominating. It's really amazing how much of a difference 3-4 mphs can make to a hitter. The same thing is true of starcraft 2. Koreans take the game really really seriously in a highly competitive environment. They push each other to play more solid. The early agression we saw in GSL 1 2 and 3 is because players still are playing mechanically poor. 1 small mistake and you lose. As players figure this out, the games become closer and last longer.
The problem is the amateur scene. The more players playing competitively, the higher the competition becomes. The amateur scene simply doesn't exist outside korea. Most foreigners are playing either casually or professionally, not in between. This needs to change. We need more competition on foreign ladders. We need more players who want to become the best and more practice time for those players. It's hard to become better if you are winning all the time too easily.
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I don't have anything against Huk, and it's nice to see a foreigner not lose instantly...
...But let's be honest. Huk's opponent wasn't on the same level as Ret and Haypro's.
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Wow, that was a fast expand clinic put on by Ace. I can't believe he stopped that push from Morrow. Shows how much that one force field can do!
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On March 02 2011 05:22 Shinobi1982 wrote:Pretty much only tournaments who have a decent balance of Korean and Westerner players is FXOpen. See whats happening there http://challonge.com/fxopenis1
Okay, a skit through the winner's bracket shows:
Junwi knocked out by Incontrol in the second round
Hannibal knocked out by lalush in the second round
Supernova knocked out by Moonglade in the second round
cute knocked out by Ciara in the first round
kkoma knocked out by Select in the second round
ParkJongHyuk knocked out by Killer (dignitas one, not sang-ho) in the first round
Check knocked out by "Steve" in the second round
To be fair, want, J and Vines were teamkilled in WB. Got kicked in LB though (vines by Goody, J by Sheth).
Still, just the fact that 2 koreans are in the finals does not make it KOREA DOMINATION or something like that. StC and Hero were the best players there, nothing else to it.
Today, Ace aced his group. Was he better than the others? Yeah. qxc and tarson played dissapointing (especially former...), morrow and idra reminded me why I dont like ZvP (though if I remember right idra just threw one of his games away, but non-sure on that one) and White-Ra is not particularily good in PvP...
So he was better. And I predict him to win IEM.
Will this repeat itself in group B? Probably not. Squirtle is good, no doubt. But group B seems much more even.
SjoW and Socke could very well win against Squirtle, and although it pains my casual-WC3-observer heart, Moon is just not that great in SC2.
All in all, I suppose it's just too early to claim Korean supremacy. It might come in time, as sc2 gets more figured out, but right now I only see some very talented individuals (and some lesser talented in the mix), regardless of their origin.
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How does the tie breaker work? Sucks to see WhiteRa out.
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Damn I missed it, however this somewhat finally will prove to the people who always think top foreigners will go to Korea and own it up. If Ace 5-0's and IdrA 4-0's (minus his loss to Ace) then imagine what TSL is gonna be like, oh god. I am kind of just being a cynic, I do greatly support Jinro, Ret, IdrA in the GSL more than any other player, but I don't think that White-Ra, MorroW, Sjow, qxc, etc. will even be able to get past Code A Ro32, as proven sadly by Moonglade, Ret, and Haypro. I HOPE though that I am wrong and that it doesn't become like BW in terms of skill gap, but it's looking like that, the gap is rapidly getting bigger.
Edit for Clarity: a foreigner that ISN'T living in Korea is most likely going to get rofl-stomped by a Korean or a foreigner living in Korea, however if foreigners go to Korea and live and train in the same conditions, then yea there is a chance to be better, but try to consider the foreigners living in Korea Koreans, just as most people do to IdrA, not ethnicity, but pretty much IdrA is a KOREAN Starcraft Player atm, not literally of course.
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On March 02 2011 07:27 Angelbelow wrote:
How does the tie breaker work? Sucks to see WhiteRa out.
IdrA lost a baneling war vs MorroW on Blistering Sands, thus MorroW is 3rd place.
Makes sense.
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On March 02 2011 07:18 darmousseh wrote:
Am I suprised a player who can't get past first round in GSL code A is dominating a european tournament? Nope. Just watch the difference in play. Count the little mistakes.
In baseball, americans are simply the best. We train hard and we grow up with the sport. Even the best japanese players (beside ichiro) are mediocore by american standards. There are many instances of AAA players going to foreign countries and dominating. It's really amazing how much of a difference 3-4 mphs can make to a hitter. The same thing is true of starcraft 2. Koreans take the game really really seriously in a highly competitive environment. They push each other to play more solid. The early agression we saw in GSL 1 2 and 3 is because players still are playing mechanically poor. 1 small mistake and you lose. As players figure this out, the games become closer and last longer.
The problem is the amateur scene. The more players playing competitively, the higher the competition becomes. The amateur scene simply doesn't exist outside korea. Most foreigners are playing either casually or professionally, not in between. This needs to change. We need more competition on foreign ladders. We need more players who want to become the best and more practice time for those players. It's hard to become better if you are winning all the time too easily.
I completely agree with what you said, I made the same analogy with Basketball. But to bust your balls, Dominicans are better than Americans in Baseball now ;\. They truely come from an environment where at young young ages they are put into intense training regimens and you now see a huge influx of dominicans into the MLB. I could be a bit wrong, maybe there still are more US born players as I dont really follow Baseball much.
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On March 02 2011 07:07 godemperor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:47 SmoKim wrote:On March 02 2011 06:32 godemperor wrote:On March 02 2011 06:27 durza wrote:Just got home, disappointed to see that foreigners couldn't even take a game off of ace . Don't worry, moon is playing tonight. hahaha, so mean ^^ You edited my post, so mean ^^
it was more cruel this way 
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On March 02 2011 07:01 Prostak wrote:
Come on dudes leave this EU / KR shit.
Korea was always temple for sc:bw, they got biggest price pool, they got trainers, houses for teams to practise all the freaking time, so normaly they will be better overall; but when someone from EU like Jinro/Ret or even from NA like Idra and Huk went to Korea to have same practise time they do pretty damn good.
And even today day9 sad that Ace was playing crazy and won milion to zero, that was kinda a suprise since he is Coda A, and Idra is Code S, still Ace own him 2:0.
Yes they are good, but not that far away tbh. I dont think we gona have Ace vs Squirtle or Moon finals.
Dreamhack was same story with TOP and other dude, they where pretty damn good, but i was eu vs eu final.
btw today was one of the most entertainment day of my sc2 history
gg`s and hope for same 2morrow
Yes, TOP and Inca lost at Dreamhack with TOP eliminating Inca, but people seem to forget that TOP won the Kaspersky Invitational and the 2 people who won Dreamhack didn't even make winner's circle. Maybe it says something when Korean losses to foreigners are more memorable than them winning.
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On March 02 2011 07:25 Dandel Ion wrote:Okay, a skit through the winner's bracket shows: Junwi knocked out by Incontrol in the second round Hannibal knocked out by lalush in the second round Supernova knocked out by Moonglade in the second round cute knocked out by Ciara in the first round kkoma knocked out by Select in the second round ParkJongHyuk knocked out by Killer (dignitas one, not sang-ho) in the first round Check knocked out by "Steve" in the second round To be fair, want, J and Vines were teamkilled in WB. Got kicked in LB though (vines by Goody, J by Sheth). Still, just the fact that 2 koreans are in the finals does not make it KOREA DOMINATION or something like that. StC and Hero were the best players there, nothing else to it. Today, Ace aced his group. Was he better than the others? Yeah. qxc and tarson played dissapointing (especially former...), morrow and idra reminded me why I dont like ZvP (though if I remember right idra just threw one of his games away, but non-sure on that one) and White-Ra is not particularily good in PvP... So he was better. And I predict him to win IEM. Will this repeat itself in group B? Probably not. Squirtle is good, no doubt. But group B seems much more even. SjoW and Socke could very well win against Squirtle, and although it pains my casual-WC3-observer heart, Moon is just not that great in SC2. All in all, I suppose it's just too early to claim Korean supremacy. It might come in time, as sc2 gets more figured out, but right now I only see some very talented individuals (and some lesser talented in the mix), regardless of their origin.
I wouldn't use FXOpen results as example. The delay is sooooooo bad, you pretty much have to 2x better than your opponent to win (played on KR server from NA, delay was bad). Still so surprised a korean still managed to win that tourny.
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EPT
