On February 28 2011 20:59 darmousseh wrote: I think people are confused. Phoenix only counter mutas in small number or if phoenix outnumber mutas. If zerg has enough mutas, then phoenix no longer counter due to splash damage from mutas.
100 phoenix beats 100 mutas. Splash is only relevent if mutas outnumber phoenix
Each attach from a phoenix will do a total of 20 damage to the muta flock. Each attack from the muta will do a total of 12 damage to the phoenix flock.
On February 28 2011 20:59 darmousseh wrote: I think people are confused. Phoenix only counter mutas in small number or if phoenix outnumber mutas. If zerg has enough mutas, then phoenix no longer counter due to splash damage from mutas.
Just did some tests of 20 phoenixes(3000/2000) vs 30 mutas (3000/3000), and the phoenixes won 10 out of 10 times. It wasn't a gigantic win, but there were around 4 phoenixes left every time. With +1 on mutas and nothing on phoenixes it was closer, with mutas winning 4 out of the 6 battles I tested. No micro on either side.
On February 28 2011 20:54 eYeball wrote: Well foreigner zergs falling right and left!
Yup. Korean TvZ is often very strong right now. There are foreigner T:s and P:s that could have done so much more with those Code A seeds.
I mean no offense to LiquidRet and them all, but look at the top of the ladder. Who is having success? Players like SeleCT, White-Ra, TLO, HasuObs, EmpireKas, etc. They could rock these Code A koreans and they are all top 25 on the ladder. What is LiquidRet? 150 something. And that difference is clearly seen.
Those players don't play on the Korean ladder which has most of the top players in the world. Ret is easily as talented as all of them. TLO didn't have any more success than Ret when he was here, and i don't think anyone would argue that Ret is better than TLO. There is a certain amount of luck involved as well. Ret draw slayer's ace player and an extremely good Terran and had chances to win both matches. If Ret draw someone like ButterflyEffect, there's no doubt Ret could have gone further. Tht said, I'm sure the players u mentioned could do well here, but basing someone's talent on their ladder score from two different ladders as well, is no very accurate.
TLO has improved greatly since he was in Korea. He even was #1 in the world on the ladder for some time. I think he would do very, very well in the GSL.
I'm pretty sure ret is way better than almost all europeans on a consistent basis. Haypro is probably top 10 european. It's not that ret is bad, it's that koreans as so good. They play extremely solid safe games taking little to no risks. They are agressive when they need to be and react appropriately. Ret got outplayed relying too much on numbers to win, when his opponent was focusing on unit positioning and control. In the end, a strategy is only as good as the execution and ret's execution was much lower than his opponents. GL to ret in NASL, i'm guessing he will win or make top 4.
On February 28 2011 20:59 darmousseh wrote: I think people are confused. Phoenix only counter mutas in small number or if phoenix outnumber mutas. If zerg has enough mutas, then phoenix no longer counter due to splash damage from mutas.
Just did some tests of 20 phoenixes(3000/2000) vs 30 mutas (3000/3000), and the phoenixes won 10 out of 10 times. It wasn't a gigantic win, but there were around 4 phoenixes left every time. With +1 on mutas and nothing on phoenixes it was closer, with mutas winning 4 out of the 6 battles I tested. No micro on either side.
were the phoenix clumped at the beginning of the battle? It makes a huge difference.
On February 28 2011 20:50 frucisky wrote: Why is metalopolis always close spawn in GSL really?
That seems pretty close to impossible to stop if well executed. Sad for JookTo. GG Sangho
It's the GSL curse. You have to assume on LT & Meta you're going to get close. You've got like a 75% chance if playing GSL. I tend to find it hilarious at this point.
On February 28 2011 20:50 frucisky wrote: Why is metalopolis always close spawn in GSL really?
That seems pretty close to impossible to stop if well executed. Sad for JookTo. GG Sangho
It's the GSL curse. You have to assume on LT & Meta you're going to get close. You've got like a 75% chance if playing GSL. I tend to find it hilarious at this point.
On February 28 2011 20:59 darmousseh wrote: I think people are confused. Phoenix only counter mutas in small number or if phoenix outnumber mutas. If zerg has enough mutas, then phoenix no longer counter due to splash damage from mutas.
Just did some tests of 20 phoenixes(3000/2000) vs 30 mutas (3000/3000), and the phoenixes won 10 out of 10 times. It wasn't a gigantic win, but there were around 4 phoenixes left every time. With +1 on mutas and nothing on phoenixes it was closer, with mutas winning 4 out of the 6 battles I tested. No micro on either side.
were the phoenix clumped at the beginning of the battle? It makes a huge difference.
They were spread normally like they would after moving to a place. Pretty much all muta glaives hit 3 phoenixes every time.
Tried 3 more tests where I had 24 phoenixes in a patrol clump, and attacked with 30 1/0 mutas that were also clumped up. Perfect attack conditions for the mutas to do maximum damage, and in the 3 tests there were 12 / 12 / 11 phoenixes left.
Now imagine a more realistic game scenario: Mutas aren't clumped up perfectly, phoenixes fly away when mutas get too close, protoss can kite towards cannons or stalkers to make the mutas turn around, thus getting more shots in.
Phoenixes are cost effective against mutas in all numbers if you build enough of them, but you're still spending less resources than the zerg.
On February 28 2011 20:54 eYeball wrote: Well foreigner zergs falling right and left!
Yup. Korean TvZ is often very strong right now. There are foreigner T:s and P:s that could have done so much more with those Code A seeds.
I mean no offense to LiquidRet and them all, but look at the top of the ladder. Who is having success? Players like SeleCT, White-Ra, TLO, HasuObs, EmpireKas, etc. They could rock these Code A koreans and they are all top 25 on the ladder. What is LiquidRet? 150 something. And that difference is clearly seen.
Those players don't play on the Korean ladder which has most of the top players in the world. Ret is easily as talented as all of them. TLO didn't have any more success than Ret when he was here, and i don't think anyone would argue that Ret is better than TLO. There is a certain amount of luck involved as well. Ret draw slayer's ace player and an extremely good Terran and had chances to win both matches. If Ret draw someone like ButterflyEffect, there's no doubt Ret could have gone further. Tht said, I'm sure the players u mentioned could do well here, but basing someone's talent on their ladder score from two different ladders as well, is no very accurate.
TLO has improved greatly since he was in Korea. He even was #1 in the world on the ladder for some time. I think he would do very, very well in the GSL.
So was kiwikaki, but he has no presence in korea does he? Players only take points from other players in the same region, so a top player in NA or EU is only taking points off of other euros and north americans. If you're in korea, you're taking points off of the best players in the world. Select's 4200 pts are worthless compared to scfou's 4200.
TLO is good, but he's a random player, random players get destroyed at the top level.
Also, the best players in the world don't ladder that often. They get better by playing with their teams, which is why Ret @ 150 is meaningless as well.
On February 28 2011 21:21 darmousseh wrote: I'm pretty sure ret is way better than almost all europeans on a consistent basis. Haypro is probably top 10 european. It's not that ret is bad, it's that koreans as so good. They play extremely solid safe games taking little to no risks. They are agressive when they need to be and react appropriately. Ret got outplayed relying too much on numbers to win, when his opponent was focusing on unit positioning and control. In the end, a strategy is only as good as the execution and ret's execution was much lower than his opponents. GL to ret in NASL, i'm guessing he will win or make top 4.
highlighted the important part, I kind of feel like people don't realize this sometimes. Many of the korean players are on teams, with coaches and teamates to discuss the game with, practicing 10 hours a day sometimes. I just feel like, with enough practice zerg is simply the most unforgiving race with the least amount of options, and at the highest level(korea) it seems everyone knows how to play vs zerg.
Ret just won assembly, but got 2-0'd in Code A. Moonglade got 2-0'd convincingly in the first round of Code A, and Haypro too. I think these players could do the same thing ret did in assembly. These players can win NA and EU tournaments, but when the competition is at it's highest it's just so much harder.
On February 28 2011 20:54 eYeball wrote: Well foreigner zergs falling right and left!
Yup. Korean TvZ is often very strong right now. There are foreigner T:s and P:s that could have done so much more with those Code A seeds.
I mean no offense to LiquidRet and them all, but look at the top of the ladder. Who is having success? Players like SeleCT, White-Ra, TLO, HasuObs, EmpireKas, etc. They could rock these Code A koreans and they are all top 25 on the ladder. What is LiquidRet? 150 something. And that difference is clearly seen.
Last time i checked Jinro was still in Diamond league... Do not make assumptions based on ladder rankings.
On February 28 2011 21:21 darmousseh wrote: I'm pretty sure ret is way better than almost all europeans on a consistent basis. Haypro is probably top 10 european. It's not that ret is bad, it's that koreans as so good. They play extremely solid safe games taking little to no risks. They are agressive when they need to be and react appropriately. Ret got outplayed relying too much on numbers to win, when his opponent was focusing on unit positioning and control. In the end, a strategy is only as good as the execution and ret's execution was much lower than his opponents. GL to ret in NASL, i'm guessing he will win or make top 4.
highlighted the important part, I kind of feel like people don't realize this sometimes. Many of the korean players are on teams, with coaches and teamates to discuss the game with, practicing 10 hours a day sometimes. I just feel like, with enough practice zerg is simply the most unforgiving race with the least amount of options, and at the highest level(korea) it seems everyone knows how to play vs zerg.
Ret just won assembly, but got 2-0'd in Code A. Moonglade got 2-0'd convincingly in the first round of Code A, and Haypro too. I think these players could do the same thing ret did in assembly. These players can win NA and EU tournaments, but when the competition is at it's highest it's just so much harder.
So yeah ... nerf korea.
Remember ogstop and ogsinca at dreamhack? yeah...
rofl, there were only two koreans, and one of them knocked the other out. ogstop isn't even that good and he came fourth
On February 28 2011 20:54 eYeball wrote: Well foreigner zergs falling right and left!
Yup. Korean TvZ is often very strong right now. There are foreigner T:s and P:s that could have done so much more with those Code A seeds.
I mean no offense to LiquidRet and them all, but look at the top of the ladder. Who is having success? Players like SeleCT, White-Ra, TLO, HasuObs, EmpireKas, etc. They could rock these Code A koreans and they are all top 25 on the ladder. What is LiquidRet? 150 something. And that difference is clearly seen.
Those players don't play on the Korean ladder which has most of the top players in the world. Ret is easily as talented as all of them. TLO didn't have any more success than Ret when he was here, and i don't think anyone would argue that Ret is better than TLO. There is a certain amount of luck involved as well. Ret draw slayer's ace player and an extremely good Terran and had chances to win both matches. If Ret draw someone like ButterflyEffect, there's no doubt Ret could have gone further. Tht said, I'm sure the players u mentioned could do well here, but basing someone's talent on their ladder score from two different ladders as well, is no very accurate.
TLO has improved greatly since he was in Korea. He even was #1 in the world on the ladder for some time. I think he would do very, very well in the GSL.
Did you seriously just base a pro player's skill off of his ladder score? When, oh I don't know, half of the maps being played in the GSL aren't on the ladder? And the well known fact that almost all pros don't take the ladder seriously; if they want to practice their tournament strats, they play custom against other pros. Did you also forget about Ret's win at Assembly? Also, comparing the NA/Euro ladder to the Korean is pretty funny as well. ThebestfoU has an extremely high ladder ranking in Korea, but got crushed by NaDa, who as far as I know, attends university and doesn't even ladder much at all.
I could also say that Select keeps getting owned by TheStC in tournaments, who's not even in Code A, and plays with lag in foreign tournaments; thus, all foreigners suck ass. Now, that's not true, is it? See, it's not a good idea to make sweeping and false generalizations. Nestea just got owned by a player who's planning to join the army soon. In other words, the Korean scene is so much deeper right now than just Code S+A.
On February 28 2011 21:21 darmousseh wrote: I'm pretty sure ret is way better than almost all europeans on a consistent basis. Haypro is probably top 10 european. It's not that ret is bad, it's that koreans as so good. They play extremely solid safe games taking little to no risks. They are agressive when they need to be and react appropriately. Ret got outplayed relying too much on numbers to win, when his opponent was focusing on unit positioning and control. In the end, a strategy is only as good as the execution and ret's execution was much lower than his opponents. GL to ret in NASL, i'm guessing he will win or make top 4.
highlighted the important part, I kind of feel like people don't realize this sometimes. Many of the korean players are on teams, with coaches and teamates to discuss the game with, practicing 10 hours a day sometimes. I just feel like, with enough practice zerg is simply the most unforgiving race with the least amount of options, and at the highest level(korea) it seems everyone knows how to play vs zerg.
Ret just won assembly, but got 2-0'd in Code A. Moonglade got 2-0'd convincingly in the first round of Code A, and Haypro too. I think these players could do the same thing ret did in assembly. These players can win NA and EU tournaments, but when the competition is at it's highest it's just so much harder.
So yeah ... nerf korea.
Remember ogstop and ogsinca at dreamhack? yeah...
Top and Inca didn't play their best at dreamhack and Top had knock Inca out. Naama,Fenix and Tyler definitely earnt their wins tho against them.
However, while I don't feel tht Korean is ridiculously better than foreigners, there is no doubt tht the general standard is much higher. There are so many good players in the Ro32 of Code A, let alone Code S and there are amazing players tht aren't even in Code A. As for the foreign scene, there are some amazing players tht can take on the best players in the world but there is a steady decrease in skill from the very top players while in Korea tht decrease in skill is much less.
On February 28 2011 20:59 darmousseh wrote: I think people are confused. Phoenix only counter mutas in small number or if phoenix outnumber mutas. If zerg has enough mutas, then phoenix no longer counter due to splash damage from mutas.
Dude, just look at numbers, not only if mutas does splash dmg.
Phoenix Dps = 9
Muta Dps = 8,6 (In perfect scenario) 5,9 (In worst one)
Phoenix HP = 120 + 60
Muta HP = 120
Phoenix MS = 4,25 + atack while moving
Muta MS = 3,75
Phoenix Range = 4
Muta Range = 3
Tell me why u think people are confuse, and why mutas beats phoenix if numbers and gameplay show us the contrary.
EPT
