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On October 19 2010 17:40 Mato wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 17:16 KingRajesh wrote:On October 19 2010 17:08 SF wrote:
The match-up between TLO and SangHo prompted me to create a Liquid account just to post in this thread.
As a new fan to pro gaming, I've been thoroughly enthralled by the entertainment value in SC2. And especially entertained by the creative and obviously talented players.
After watching this round 64 live on GOMtv (for the first time ever), and seeing several mediocre players advance, I am disgusted that somehow the tournament designers managed to put two players that are clearly and obviously massively superior in skill to their round 64 counterparts against each other in a preliminary round, forcing an elimination.
This is the equivalent of having an NFL Quarterback Tournament, by which the winner is decided by elimination in 1v1, and in the very first round Peyton Manning is pitted against Drew Brees, while every other match-up involves a 2nd string nobody.
The outcome of this "GSL" now seems as much decided by pure luck as it is by actual skill. How can a tournament that forces the elimination of top players in the preliminaries be seen as credible whatsoever at all?
I didn't feel as if "the best player won" today, as I would hope to feel. I am a fan of both players, and I felt disgusted and cheated of the pleasure of watching one of my favorite stars play again in the tournament. The TLO vs. SangHo game should have been either in the final of the tournament, best out of 7, or at a minimum the Round of 8.
This needs to be fixed before pro 1v1 gaming becomes a joke. I'm sure a new system can be devised that pits players of appropriate skill at appropriate times in a tournament against each other.
P.S. The Rankings by GSL are pathetic. TLO = a "private", and a fake "Boxer" is now going to be a "Sergent" or something? That's like calling Babe Ruth a "little leaguer" and telling a bench warmer that he's "MVP" because the refs didn't know how to set up a fair game.
P.P.S. And yes, I'm very pissed right now, so apologies if any of this seems like "hating", but it's also important, because this is the "new guys" opinion on something that seemed so cool at first, and now seems lame.
In my opinion, a system where TLO, SangHo and the rest of the top players are kept from each other till later in the tournament doesn't make for a fair tournament. It would make it a joke if you were'nt considered a top player, cause they'd intentionally feed you to the best players so you'd be eliminated, while the player who draws the most moves on. It adds a feeling of illegitimacy. Good players should have to play other good players, depending on the brackets. Anything else is garbage. College Basketball is stupid for that reason, because the NCAA makes the brackets to get viewers, not get the best games. Uhh yeah, ever heard of tennis? Good, proven players should never have to play each other in initial rounds. Its up to newcomers to break into the scene.
This.
It would be stupid to have a random bracket once the heirarchy is established where you got 4 top players in the same bracket and another bracket with a highest seed of say 20 or so. Plus it is horrible business model wise as the best players tend to be the most watched and they want to get as many games for them in a tournament.
In your model you would be punished for being a top tier player where barely qualifying players would get decided advantages early. that is probably the worst idea i have ever heard in regards to tournament format in my life.
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man TLO is such a class act, doing the interview after such a devastating loss (4gate of all things, nothing high level), whereas someone like Grack would just run out the door in a hissy fit
And Sangho is way overrated considering how mediocre his play was in that series, clearly SC2 is not BW
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On October 19 2010 17:45 Wargizmo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 17:40 Mato wrote:On October 19 2010 17:16 KingRajesh wrote:On October 19 2010 17:08 SF wrote:
The match-up between TLO and SangHo prompted me to create a Liquid account just to post in this thread.
As a new fan to pro gaming, I've been thoroughly enthralled by the entertainment value in SC2. And especially entertained by the creative and obviously talented players.
After watching this round 64 live on GOMtv (for the first time ever), and seeing several mediocre players advance, I am disgusted that somehow the tournament designers managed to put two players that are clearly and obviously massively superior in skill to their round 64 counterparts against each other in a preliminary round, forcing an elimination.
This is the equivalent of having an NFL Quarterback Tournament, by which the winner is decided by elimination in 1v1, and in the very first round Peyton Manning is pitted against Drew Brees, while every other match-up involves a 2nd string nobody.
The outcome of this "GSL" now seems as much decided by pure luck as it is by actual skill. How can a tournament that forces the elimination of top players in the preliminaries be seen as credible whatsoever at all?
I didn't feel as if "the best player won" today, as I would hope to feel. I am a fan of both players, and I felt disgusted and cheated of the pleasure of watching one of my favorite stars play again in the tournament. The TLO vs. SangHo game should have been either in the final of the tournament, best out of 7, or at a minimum the Round of 8.
This needs to be fixed before pro 1v1 gaming becomes a joke. I'm sure a new system can be devised that pits players of appropriate skill at appropriate times in a tournament against each other.
P.S. The Rankings by GSL are pathetic. TLO = a "private", and a fake "Boxer" is now going to be a "Sergent" or something? That's like calling Babe Ruth a "little leaguer" and telling a bench warmer that he's "MVP" because the refs didn't know how to set up a fair game.
P.P.S. And yes, I'm very pissed right now, so apologies if any of this seems like "hating", but it's also important, because this is the "new guys" opinion on something that seemed so cool at first, and now seems lame.
In my opinion, a system where TLO, SangHo and the rest of the top players are kept from each other till later in the tournament doesn't make for a fair tournament. It would make it a joke if you were'nt considered a top player, cause they'd intentionally feed you to the best players so you'd be eliminated, while the player who draws the most moves on. It adds a feeling of illegitimacy. Good players should have to play other good players, depending on the brackets. Anything else is garbage. College Basketball is stupid for that reason, because the NCAA makes the brackets to get viewers, not get the best games. Uhh yeah, ever heard of tennis? Good, proven players should never have to play each other in initial rounds. Its up to newcomers to break into the scene. Problem is the game is too new to have 'proven' players yet. How does someone in charge of seeding differentiate SangHo from Apple or BabyWerra when none of those players have actually achieved anything yet in Sc2. Hence why the first 3 GSLs are unseeded.
and the funny thing is if TLO has another disappointing early exit in GSL S3, he'd be in the lower seeds in GSL 2011 seasons. so fanboy's crying that better seeds would have helped TLO advance will then cry about 2011 tournaments seeding TLO against 2010 GSL champions.
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On October 19 2010 17:47 tyrless wrote:
man TLO is such a class act, doing the interview after such a devastating loss (4gate of all things, nothing high level), whereas someone like Grack would just run out the door in a hissy fit
And Sangho is way overrated considering how mediocre his play was in that series, clearly SC2 is not BW
idra did an interview after his elimination last season and was pretty chill
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On October 19 2010 17:47 tyrless wrote:
man TLO is such a class act, doing the interview after such a devastating loss (4gate of all things, nothing high level), whereas someone like Grack would just run out the door in a hissy fit
And Sangho is way overrated considering how mediocre his play was in that series, clearly SC2 is not BW
Tlo is a class act but many competitive people are in no mood to be friendly after a devastating loss. Micheal Jordan is seen as the greatest sports icon in america and he often left after disappointing losses with no handshakes or congratulations and even skipped interviews after some of the games.
Im kind of amazed that no matter the topic, idra being a raging horrid human being is brought up with little cause.
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On October 19 2010 17:45 Wargizmo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 17:40 Mato wrote:On October 19 2010 17:16 KingRajesh wrote:On October 19 2010 17:08 SF wrote:
The match-up between TLO and SangHo prompted me to create a Liquid account just to post in this thread.
As a new fan to pro gaming, I've been thoroughly enthralled by the entertainment value in SC2. And especially entertained by the creative and obviously talented players.
After watching this round 64 live on GOMtv (for the first time ever), and seeing several mediocre players advance, I am disgusted that somehow the tournament designers managed to put two players that are clearly and obviously massively superior in skill to their round 64 counterparts against each other in a preliminary round, forcing an elimination.
This is the equivalent of having an NFL Quarterback Tournament, by which the winner is decided by elimination in 1v1, and in the very first round Peyton Manning is pitted against Drew Brees, while every other match-up involves a 2nd string nobody.
The outcome of this "GSL" now seems as much decided by pure luck as it is by actual skill. How can a tournament that forces the elimination of top players in the preliminaries be seen as credible whatsoever at all?
I didn't feel as if "the best player won" today, as I would hope to feel. I am a fan of both players, and I felt disgusted and cheated of the pleasure of watching one of my favorite stars play again in the tournament. The TLO vs. SangHo game should have been either in the final of the tournament, best out of 7, or at a minimum the Round of 8.
This needs to be fixed before pro 1v1 gaming becomes a joke. I'm sure a new system can be devised that pits players of appropriate skill at appropriate times in a tournament against each other.
P.S. The Rankings by GSL are pathetic. TLO = a "private", and a fake "Boxer" is now going to be a "Sergent" or something? That's like calling Babe Ruth a "little leaguer" and telling a bench warmer that he's "MVP" because the refs didn't know how to set up a fair game.
P.P.S. And yes, I'm very pissed right now, so apologies if any of this seems like "hating", but it's also important, because this is the "new guys" opinion on something that seemed so cool at first, and now seems lame.
In my opinion, a system where TLO, SangHo and the rest of the top players are kept from each other till later in the tournament doesn't make for a fair tournament. It would make it a joke if you were'nt considered a top player, cause they'd intentionally feed you to the best players so you'd be eliminated, while the player who draws the most moves on. It adds a feeling of illegitimacy. Good players should have to play other good players, depending on the brackets. Anything else is garbage. College Basketball is stupid for that reason, because the NCAA makes the brackets to get viewers, not get the best games. Uhh yeah, ever heard of tennis? Good, proven players should never have to play each other in initial rounds. Its up to newcomers to break into the scene. Problem is the game is too new to have 'proven' players yet. How does someone in charge of seeding differentiate SangHo from Apple or BabyWerra when none of those players have actually achieved anything yet in Sc2. Hence why the first 3 GSLs are unseeded.
They're unseeded in theory. There is a seeding system that seems to be at work, only it seems to be based not on skill but on a player's potential to draw in the Korean audience. GOM understandably wants to grow their league.
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People really have nothing to complain about, what we have here is a guy who got top 32 last tourney vs a guy who didn't even play in the last tourney. Just because it's TLO doesn't mean he should be treated any differently.
If they put two guys from GSL1's top 8 against each other in the first round then we might have something to complain about, but they didn't. Yes, some people get a tough draw and some people get a comparatively easy draw. That's life. You can't complain about the tournament structure just because the guy YOU like didn't get an easy draw.
TLO lost to a worthy opponent, but he will have his chance again in GSL3.
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Lol, anyone who hates on SangHo because he beat TLO is just a pure fanboy. The guy isn't trash talking or anything and he beat TLO with 4 gate, a build that isn't even that good vs Terran compared to Protoss and Zerg. Terran can block up and bunker easily if they don't tech up to cloaked banshee.
SangHo took his chances and won. Give him props and hope TLO do better in GSL3.
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On October 19 2010 17:08 SF wrote:
The match-up between TLO and SangHo prompted me to create a Liquid account just to post in this thread.
As a new fan to pro gaming, I've been thoroughly enthralled by the entertainment value in SC2. And especially entertained by the creative and obviously talented players.
After watching this round 64 live on GOMtv (for the first time ever), and seeing several mediocre players advance, I am disgusted that somehow the tournament designers managed to put two players that are clearly and obviously massively superior in skill to their round 64 counterparts against each other in a preliminary round, forcing an elimination.
This is the equivalent of having an NFL Quarterback Tournament, by which the winner is decided by elimination in 1v1, and in the very first round Peyton Manning is pitted against Drew Brees, while every other match-up involves a 2nd string nobody.
The outcome of this "GSL" now seems as much decided by pure luck as it is by actual skill. How can a tournament that forces the elimination of top players in the preliminaries be seen as credible whatsoever at all?
I didn't feel as if "the best player won" today, as I would hope to feel. I am a fan of both players, and I felt disgusted and cheated of the pleasure of watching one of my favorite stars play again in the tournament. The TLO vs. SangHo game should have been either in the final of the tournament, best out of 7, or at a minimum the Round of 8.
This needs to be fixed before pro 1v1 gaming becomes a joke. I'm sure a new system can be devised that pits players of appropriate skill at appropriate times in a tournament against each other.
P.S. The Rankings by GSL are pathetic. TLO = a "private", and a fake "Boxer" is now going to be a "Sergent" or something? That's like calling Babe Ruth a "little leaguer" and telling a bench warmer that he's "MVP" because the refs didn't know how to set up a fair game.
P.P.S. And yes, I'm very pissed right now, so apologies if any of this seems like "hating", but it's also important, because this is the "new guys" opinion on something that seemed so cool at first, and now seems lame.
admit it, if tlo had won the series you wouldnt be sputing this non sense... ugh some people need to dead the drama
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On October 19 2010 17:40 Mato wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 17:16 KingRajesh wrote:On October 19 2010 17:08 SF wrote:
The match-up between TLO and SangHo prompted me to create a Liquid account just to post in this thread.
As a new fan to pro gaming, I've been thoroughly enthralled by the entertainment value in SC2. And especially entertained by the creative and obviously talented players.
After watching this round 64 live on GOMtv (for the first time ever), and seeing several mediocre players advance, I am disgusted that somehow the tournament designers managed to put two players that are clearly and obviously massively superior in skill to their round 64 counterparts against each other in a preliminary round, forcing an elimination.
This is the equivalent of having an NFL Quarterback Tournament, by which the winner is decided by elimination in 1v1, and in the very first round Peyton Manning is pitted against Drew Brees, while every other match-up involves a 2nd string nobody.
The outcome of this "GSL" now seems as much decided by pure luck as it is by actual skill. How can a tournament that forces the elimination of top players in the preliminaries be seen as credible whatsoever at all?
I didn't feel as if "the best player won" today, as I would hope to feel. I am a fan of both players, and I felt disgusted and cheated of the pleasure of watching one of my favorite stars play again in the tournament. The TLO vs. SangHo game should have been either in the final of the tournament, best out of 7, or at a minimum the Round of 8.
This needs to be fixed before pro 1v1 gaming becomes a joke. I'm sure a new system can be devised that pits players of appropriate skill at appropriate times in a tournament against each other.
P.S. The Rankings by GSL are pathetic. TLO = a "private", and a fake "Boxer" is now going to be a "Sergent" or something? That's like calling Babe Ruth a "little leaguer" and telling a bench warmer that he's "MVP" because the refs didn't know how to set up a fair game.
P.P.S. And yes, I'm very pissed right now, so apologies if any of this seems like "hating", but it's also important, because this is the "new guys" opinion on something that seemed so cool at first, and now seems lame.
In my opinion, a system where TLO, SangHo and the rest of the top players are kept from each other till later in the tournament doesn't make for a fair tournament. It would make it a joke if you were'nt considered a top player, cause they'd intentionally feed you to the best players so you'd be eliminated, while the player who draws the most moves on. It adds a feeling of illegitimacy. Good players should have to play other good players, depending on the brackets. Anything else is garbage. College Basketball is stupid for that reason, because the NCAA makes the brackets to get viewers, not get the best games. Uhh yeah, ever heard of tennis? Good, proven players should never have to play each other in initial rounds. Its up to newcomers to break into the scene.
The problem with that theory is that I wouldn't say TLO is a proven player. He's obviously a fan favourite and all, but even going back to the beta his tournament track record isn't so hot.
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On October 19 2010 17:50 Kishkumen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 17:45 Wargizmo wrote:On October 19 2010 17:40 Mato wrote:On October 19 2010 17:16 KingRajesh wrote:On October 19 2010 17:08 SF wrote:
The match-up between TLO and SangHo prompted me to create a Liquid account just to post in this thread.
As a new fan to pro gaming, I've been thoroughly enthralled by the entertainment value in SC2. And especially entertained by the creative and obviously talented players.
After watching this round 64 live on GOMtv (for the first time ever), and seeing several mediocre players advance, I am disgusted that somehow the tournament designers managed to put two players that are clearly and obviously massively superior in skill to their round 64 counterparts against each other in a preliminary round, forcing an elimination.
This is the equivalent of having an NFL Quarterback Tournament, by which the winner is decided by elimination in 1v1, and in the very first round Peyton Manning is pitted against Drew Brees, while every other match-up involves a 2nd string nobody.
The outcome of this "GSL" now seems as much decided by pure luck as it is by actual skill. How can a tournament that forces the elimination of top players in the preliminaries be seen as credible whatsoever at all?
I didn't feel as if "the best player won" today, as I would hope to feel. I am a fan of both players, and I felt disgusted and cheated of the pleasure of watching one of my favorite stars play again in the tournament. The TLO vs. SangHo game should have been either in the final of the tournament, best out of 7, or at a minimum the Round of 8.
This needs to be fixed before pro 1v1 gaming becomes a joke. I'm sure a new system can be devised that pits players of appropriate skill at appropriate times in a tournament against each other.
P.S. The Rankings by GSL are pathetic. TLO = a "private", and a fake "Boxer" is now going to be a "Sergent" or something? That's like calling Babe Ruth a "little leaguer" and telling a bench warmer that he's "MVP" because the refs didn't know how to set up a fair game.
P.P.S. And yes, I'm very pissed right now, so apologies if any of this seems like "hating", but it's also important, because this is the "new guys" opinion on something that seemed so cool at first, and now seems lame.
In my opinion, a system where TLO, SangHo and the rest of the top players are kept from each other till later in the tournament doesn't make for a fair tournament. It would make it a joke if you were'nt considered a top player, cause they'd intentionally feed you to the best players so you'd be eliminated, while the player who draws the most moves on. It adds a feeling of illegitimacy. Good players should have to play other good players, depending on the brackets. Anything else is garbage. College Basketball is stupid for that reason, because the NCAA makes the brackets to get viewers, not get the best games. Uhh yeah, ever heard of tennis? Good, proven players should never have to play each other in initial rounds. Its up to newcomers to break into the scene. Problem is the game is too new to have 'proven' players yet. How does someone in charge of seeding differentiate SangHo from Apple or BabyWerra when none of those players have actually achieved anything yet in Sc2. Hence why the first 3 GSLs are unseeded. They're unseeded in theory. There is a seeding system that seems to be at work, only it seems to be based not on skill but on a player's potential to draw in the Korean audience. GOM understandably wants to grow their league.
The seeding seems pretty random outside of nada and boxer being given a bit of a no big name bracket. Maybe some conspiracy there.
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As much as I hate that TLO is eliminated but I knew that no matter who went on the winner deserved it and both were skilled enough to reach ro16 at minimum.
I knew SangHo was an ex A-team progamer. That's like the level of Tester/Cool/ITR.
And since we've seen Tester/Cool/ITR etc. playing in GSL1 we could now see how TLO plays against the real top and you must know that SangHo has a chance on winning the tournament.
TLO just proved to me that he is capable of winning against top players in the GSL and if lucky enough in the bracket going top4-8.
It is just that TLO was unlucky to be paired against SangHo a top player in both sc1 and 2 in the first round (ro64) but this is a no seed tournament (although you can discuss the brackets which seems to favour some people).
We just have to hope TLO makes it to the ro64 in GSL3.
Because if he makes it atleast to ro64 I believe he'll be in the 32 S-class players for the GSL 2011 tournaments based on the amount of appearances,achievements and the recurring participants in each GSL.
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IdrA's bracket seems decent until MVP
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On October 19 2010 17:55 Fa1nT wrote:
IdrA's bracket seems decent until MVP
Well let's hope that he is right in saying he isn't really scared of anything terran can do because there is a good chance he could play into the top 4 only on zvt.
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On October 19 2010 17:51 minru wrote:
4 gate, a build that isn't even that good vs Terran compared to Protoss and Zerg. Terran can block up and bunker easily if they don't tech up to cloaked banshee.
Not when there are back door rocks and stuff like that. You can hold it of with bunkers and repair in one choke, not when there are 2. You should just go 3 raks on maps like that or just veto them, they are horrible i think.
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On October 19 2010 17:47 tyrless wrote:
man TLO is such a class act, doing the interview after such a devastating loss (4gate of all things, nothing high level), whereas someone like Grack would just run out the door in a hissy fit
And Sangho is way overrated considering how mediocre his play was in that series, clearly SC2 is not BW
Mediocre? you didnt see 1st game where he had played it out so well vs TLO he barely made any mistakes and kept kool. You are just biased mate, Sangho will go to top16 im sure.
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Personally, I think any mention of wishing TLO doesn't get pitted against "better" players is insulting to TLO's skill. He's a great player and I feel like all this "I wish TLO got pitted against a nobody" sentiment implies an insulting lack of faith in his playing ability. We shouldn't care who TLO gets placed against because he's an amazing player capable of playing against the best. And next GSL, I'm sure TLO is going to kick some major ass, no matter who he goes against.
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On October 19 2010 17:08 SF wrote:
The match-up between TLO and SangHo prompted me to create a Liquid account just to post in this thread.
didn't quote the rest because I wanted to prevent the "wall-of-quote"
although I'd normally agree with you that good players have to be seeded...the problem is (now hold your horses): TLO hasn't won ANYTHING lately;
his last "good" performance was at IEM and there he didn't even get "that" far; he lost quite early in GSL 1 to cheese, didn't play in any tournaments I'm aware of....the last time I saw him play he got stomped by TT1
of course I do NOT want to say that he is a bad player; what I want to say is, that TLO hasn't "achieved" anything lately that would justify a high seed (!); you could say exactly the same about tester (I'm protoss btw, so that there's no bias): both players are considered among the very best of their respective races but unfortunately both didn't deliver lately; I like the comparison with tennis: you can stomp everyone in training, it won't matter AT ALL if you fail to win something in tourneys
and sangho was definitely "beatable" as I heard/read, if you tech you "have" to be able to beat 4-gate, no matter what; otherwise don't do it
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On October 19 2010 17:49 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 17:47 tyrless wrote:
man TLO is such a class act, doing the interview after such a devastating loss (4gate of all things, nothing high level), whereas someone like Grack would just run out the door in a hissy fit
And Sangho is way overrated considering how mediocre his play was in that series, clearly SC2 is not BW idra did an interview after his elimination last season and was pretty chill
Orly?
I seem to remember Idra running off after his loss, refusing to do an interview.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On October 19 2010 17:57 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 17:51 minru wrote:
4 gate, a build that isn't even that good vs Terran compared to Protoss and Zerg. Terran can block up and bunker easily if they don't tech up to cloaked banshee.
Not when there are back door rocks and stuff like that. You can hold it of with bunkers and repair in one choke, not when there are 2. You should just go 3 raks on maps like that or just veto them, they are horrible i think.
Jungle Basin other than the rocks is a perfectly good map for TvP I think, yes It's annoying that those rocks got abused and I'm really quite annoyed that TLO went out so early. But, as with anything else, if something like that is in the map pool, people will abuse it. It sucks, but it's just the way it is sadly.
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EPT
