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On August 21 2010 00:05 Onlinejaguar wrote:
This tournament has been so amazing so far, the Semi Finals will not disappoint. Im tipping Dimaga and IdrA to advance to the Finals. Honestly the two best players in the world IMO and they play zerg which makes it even more impressive.
Ever seen ensnare play (or all the oGs members) ?
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what? terran isnt strong late game??? what are mules then?? stacking like 6-7 mules late game thats like 1.2k minerals a min.
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On August 21 2010 01:23 LaLuSh wrote:
On the other hand, when zerg survives the early/mid-game, their macro mechanic starts to go into "broken"-mode. Terran can't really afford to have their push delayed even 1 minute, lest they give zerg too much time. Every minute of delay, zerg go more and more into overdrive.
Because T wasted too much energy/resources on a cheese that didn't work very well maybe?
On August 21 2010 01:23 LaLuSh wrote:
I'd bet Terran win 70% of any games < ~10 minutes of length, and that zerg has an almost equally scewed percentage for >10 minutes.
I'd bet you're wrong.
It's much easier for T to pull off a win with early game harass which is relatively low apm oriented, than it is for a Z to pull off a win late game where you need much higher average apm to keep up with everything. When Day9 was commentating on IdrA v DeMuslim game 1 pointing out "omg war3 players with micro", that's exactly it. You can pull off a win off some relatively easy micro, because there's not much in play at this stage of the game for you to worry about anyway.
So I really doubt that late game = autowin for zerg, and with the general efficiency of T units I highly doubt that they are particularly weak late game either. How is a tank or a thor bad late game? Even 500hp ultras go down pretty fast to stimmed marauders... And last I checked Viking range still owned Broodlords.
Maybe T should cheese less and expand more? It's pretty obvious cheese followed by a timing push off 1 base or with a very late expo is going to do pretty bad once macro mode kicks in.
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On August 21 2010 01:37 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 00:05 Onlinejaguar wrote:
This tournament has been so amazing so far, the Semi Finals will not disappoint. Im tipping Dimaga and IdrA to advance to the Finals. Honestly the two best players in the world IMO and they play zerg which makes it even more impressive. Ever seen ensnare play (or all the oGs members) ?
Because IdrA beat Tester people assume that means he can beat any of oGs (oGs > Best in Korea, so IdrA > Korea). True or not? I don't know.
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Idra beat Tester in the finals (it even had to go to ace), but also got swept in the group stage of KOTB. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Plus, that was over a month ago, I think Tester could take Idra now. Koreans are just way too good.
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On August 21 2010 01:42 kagemucha wrote:
Idra beat Tester in the finals (it even had to go to ace), but also got swept in the group stage of KOTB. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Plus, that was over a month ago, I think Tester could take Idra now. Koreans are just way too good.
That's an argument based on no facts. 'Plus, that was over a month ago' That's saying IdrA hasn't gotten better in the past month.
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Are there any alternatives to ESL VODs? They are incredibly slow for me.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:39 shlomo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:23 LaLuSh wrote:
On the other hand, when zerg survives the early/mid-game, their macro mechanic starts to go into "broken"-mode. Terran can't really afford to have their push delayed even 1 minute, lest they give zerg too much time. Every minute of delay, zerg go more and more into overdrive. Because T wasted too much energy/resources on a cheese that didn't work very well maybe? Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:23 LaLuSh wrote:
I'd bet Terran win 70% of any games < ~10 minutes of length, and that zerg has an almost equally scewed percentage for >10 minutes. I'd bet you're wrong. It's much easier for T to pull off a win with early game harass which is relatively low apm oriented, than it is for a Z to pull off a win late game where you need much higher average apm to keep up with everything. When Day9 was commentating on IdrA v DeMuslim game 1 pointing out "omg war3 players with micro", that's exactly it. You can pull off a win off some relatively easy micro, because there's not much in play at this stage of the game for you to worry about anyway. So I really doubt that late game = autowin for zerg, and with the general efficiency of T units I highly doubt that they are particularly weak late game either. How is a tank or a thor bad late game? Even 500hp ultras go down pretty fast to stimmed marauders... Maybe T should cheese less and expand more? It's pretty obvious cheese followed by a timing push off 1 base or with a very late expo is going to do pretty bad once macro mode kicks in.
I don't think late game is autowin for zerg, but I think you have to keep up some aggression at all points in the game, or zerg gets really scary.
I'm not talking about all-inish play, but you need to keep them honest. It depends on the map too, of course... Cross position metalopolis is genuinely really, really tough while close pos metal is... not.
Someone brought up a game of me vs Lalush on Kulas Ravine from phase 1, where I won despite playing really passively and I think that's a perfect example of how NOT to play. I mean, pretty much the ONLY reason I won that game is because Lalush didn't kill one of my - mostly - undefended expansions, which allowed me to come back.
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On August 21 2010 01:46 Rev0lution wrote:
Are there any alternatives to ESL VODs? They are incredibly slow for me.
Check Youtube, I think some have been uploaded.
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Hoping to see MorroW vs. IdrA in the finals... GO! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!
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On August 21 2010 01:46 Rev0lution wrote:
Are there any alternatives to ESL VODs? They are incredibly slow for me.
http://www.glhf.tv/
Unfortunately you don't get Day9 casting but the vods are high quality.
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On August 21 2010 01:44 Brad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:42 kagemucha wrote:
Idra beat Tester in the finals (it even had to go to ace), but also got swept in the group stage of KOTB. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Plus, that was over a month ago, I think Tester could take Idra now. Koreans are just way too good. That's an argument based on no facts. 'Plus, that was over a month ago' That's saying IdrA hasn't gotten better in the past month.
at this point, i think that idra is even with or slightly better than the top ogs guys (tester, thestc, itr, cool). maybe like 60-40, it's still a coin flip, not huge difference in skill level.
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As far as using bio v Zerg, not my fault if T players want to force it upon themselves to not use the amazingly efficient hellions, tanks and thors. Would be like trying super hard to use mass lings against wall/tanks....
I mean look at DeMuslim vs Dimaga. He lost all his bio games, won all his mech games.
What a coincidence... Demuslim understands the advantages of different playstyles much more than you do. Top pros wouldn't play in any way except what they think would give them the highest chance of winning.
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I'm pretty sure top pros remain human and make mistakes, such as thinking confidently that they "can handle it" with bio. Dimaga is notorious for loving banelings, after all.
Anyway, you can say what you want, the fact remains, bio games = lost, mech games = won.
Because you can't just crush mech with a bunch of well placed rolling banelings.
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Germany2284 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:49 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:44 Brad wrote:On August 21 2010 01:42 kagemucha wrote:
Idra beat Tester in the finals (it even had to go to ace), but also got swept in the group stage of KOTB. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Plus, that was over a month ago, I think Tester could take Idra now. Koreans are just way too good. That's an argument based on no facts. 'Plus, that was over a month ago' That's saying IdrA hasn't gotten better in the past month. at this point, i think that idra is even with or slightly better than the top ogs guys (tester, thestc, itr, cool). maybe like 60-40, it's still a coin flip, not huge difference in skill level.
I'd really be interested to see some more games of them. The only one I've seen was from cool on Blistering Sands, it was an HDStarcraft VOD and in that game both players just played super crappy aggro mass T1 style, which would get crushed in any foreigner tournament(with the exception of tester of course).
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On August 21 2010 01:42 kagemucha wrote:
Idra beat Tester in the finals (it even had to go to ace), but also got swept in the group stage of KOTB. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Plus, that was over a month ago, I think Tester could take Idra now. Koreans are just way too good.
Ensnare and TheStc are better than Tester (some might argue its race related tho).
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On August 21 2010 00:25 shlomo wrote:
Jinro: read the post above yours.
But seriously, are we going to argue over the skill it takes to pull of reaper, hellion, banshee harass vs the skill it takes to cover your ass against all of it with zerglings/queen/crawler while taking an expo and still not come out crippled? Rofl. Must be why Zerg is all over the ladder amirite bro?
Zerg has harder base mechanism, gestion of larva, creep spreading, etc. They are obviously the harder race to play, just like it was in BW, makes perfect sense that people that are not professionnal players dont jump on this race first. That doesnt prove in any way a form of imbalance. (After a couple of your posts im not sure if you want to say its imbalanced, or you are just here to whine that ''omygod terran so easy nub race go l2p'' which is what it really seems like, if so I dont even see why we are discussing this as we are both entitled to an opinion and I dont see how forums are the place to whine)
On August 21 2010 01:39 shlomo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:23 LaLuSh wrote:
On the other hand, when zerg survives the early/mid-game, their macro mechanic starts to go into "broken"-mode. Terran can't really afford to have their push delayed even 1 minute, lest they give zerg too much time. Every minute of delay, zerg go more and more into overdrive. Because T wasted too much energy/resources on a cheese that didn't work very well maybe? Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:23 LaLuSh wrote:
I'd bet Terran win 70% of any games < ~10 minutes of length, and that zerg has an almost equally scewed percentage for >10 minutes. I'd bet you're wrong. It's much easier for T to pull off a win with early game harass which is relatively low apm oriented, than it is for a Z to pull off a win late game where you need much higher average apm to keep up with everything. When Day9 was commentating on IdrA v DeMuslim game 1 pointing out "omg war3 players with micro", that's exactly it. You can pull off a win off some relatively easy micro, because there's not much in play at this stage of the game for you to worry about anyway. So I really doubt that late game = autowin for zerg, and with the general efficiency of T units I highly doubt that they are particularly weak late game either. How is a tank or a thor bad late game? Even 500hp ultras go down pretty fast to stimmed marauders... And last I checked Viking range still owned Broodlords. Maybe T should cheese less and expand more? It's pretty obvious cheese followed by a timing push off 1 base or with a very late expo is going to do pretty bad once macro mode kicks in.
Im not so sure what you are considering as cheese. Ive seen you in your last post call marauder pushes cheese, hellion harass cheese, etc.
If I go for a normal build, start producing hellions from my fact, then harass your worker, thats not a cheese, its just fucking harassing. So what now youre gonna reply to me that ''yeah but harassing is for noob, this game is all about macro'' and that I shouldnt harass and I should just try to outmacro the biggest macro oriented race ? Im starting to really think you are just here to whine because that really makes no sense '' yeah but, my units die fast'' ''yeah but, harassing makes me lose'' ''yeah but, terrans should not harass and just expand''.
Let me just quote a couple of things you said''
''And last I checked Viking range still owned Broodlords.
Anti air units beating air to ground units ? uh ?
''Maybe T should cheese less and expand more? It's pretty obvious cheese followed by a timing push off 1 base or with a very late expo is going to do pretty bad once macro mode kicks in..
So im guessing that, as terran, I should just expand whenever a zerg expands ? Did you ever take into consideration the advantage another hatch gives zerg and the difference in cost compared to terran ? OF COURSE IM NOT GONNA GO FOR A MACRO GAME VS ZERG, why would anyone go for that, every hatch the zerg adds is more problem for you.
''So I really doubt that late game = autowin for zerg, and with the general efficiency of T units I highly doubt that they are particularly weak late game either. How is a tank or a thor bad late game? Even 500hp ultras go down pretty fast to stimmed marauders... ''
What was the point of that, seriously. OBVIOUSLY its not autowin, its just obvious that zerg has the biggest potential in late game (and by that i dont mean has the strongest units in the game, that doesnt matter, they just have the highest potential to
1. REPRODUCE UNITS
2. SWITCH UNITS TO COUNTER EASILY)
No one said tanks and thors sucked late game, you are changing peoples word so it gives you argument.
''It's much easier for T to pull off a win with early game harass which is relatively low apm oriented, than it is for a Z to pull off a win late game where you need much higher average apm''
APM is all, obviously. And yes, harassing obviously requires no micro, just suicide your hellions/reaper and they killz all ur dronez right ?
Again, Zerg requires a higher skill level to play at a top level, BUT THAT DOESNT PROVE AN IMBALANCE. The fact that a silver level player cant play zerg well and will lose to a lower skilled opponent then him playing terran doesnt matter to me at all. Whats important is that AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF COMPETITION, every race can compete, which doesnt seem like too much of a problem to me.
Id highly recommend you read more carefully what people write, then think about what you are trying to prove, and then give us a solid argumentation, cause right now it just seems like you are mad about losing early game to terran.
Anyways, topic derailing greatly, pretty stoked for NaDa vs TLO (just hoping Nada got some sc2 games in to make it more interesting, anyone knows his sc2 race? did he stick with T ?)
Tomorrows game for the semis gonna be amazinnnnnnnng.
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On August 21 2010 01:58 Philosophy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:42 kagemucha wrote:
Idra beat Tester in the finals (it even had to go to ace), but also got swept in the group stage of KOTB. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Plus, that was over a month ago, I think Tester could take Idra now. Koreans are just way too good. Ensnare and TheStc are better than Tester (some might argue its race related tho).
and you know this how
give me a break, people
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On August 21 2010 01:58 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:49 thesighter wrote:On August 21 2010 01:44 Brad wrote:On August 21 2010 01:42 kagemucha wrote:
Idra beat Tester in the finals (it even had to go to ace), but also got swept in the group stage of KOTB. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Plus, that was over a month ago, I think Tester could take Idra now. Koreans are just way too good. That's an argument based on no facts. 'Plus, that was over a month ago' That's saying IdrA hasn't gotten better in the past month. at this point, i think that idra is even with or slightly better than the top ogs guys (tester, thestc, itr, cool). maybe like 60-40, it's still a coin flip, not huge difference in skill level. I'd really be interested to see some more games of them. The only one I've seen was from cool on Blistering Sands, it was an HDStarcraft VOD and in that game both players just played super crappy aggro mass T1 style, which would get crushed in any foreigner tournament(with the exception of tester of course).
Believe me, their style just looks weak from a spectators pov. There was some kinda king of the hill tournament in korea lately where many top players like Tester, TheStc, Cool, TheWind etc took part. Lets say: Tester didn't do too well and TheStc had a 22 win streak.
Now go figure that Tester is probably better than any euro player.
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On August 21 2010 02:02 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:58 Philosophy wrote:On August 21 2010 01:42 kagemucha wrote:
Idra beat Tester in the finals (it even had to go to ace), but also got swept in the group stage of KOTB. So it wasn't that much of a difference. Plus, that was over a month ago, I think Tester could take Idra now. Koreans are just way too good. Ensnare and TheStc are better than Tester (some might argue its race related tho). and you know this how give me a break, people
Recent tournaments?
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EPT
