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On August 21 2010 00:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
How the hell are players like Demuslim, Bratok, TLO etc on a lower level than IdrA/Dimaga? It's just ridiculous to claim this.
They're slower, make worse decisions, have worse build orders, don't time their attacks as well, don't practice as much, don't take the game as seriously, are less talented, and are overall weaker players objectively if you watch their replays closely. You will see muslim bratok and tlo making basic macro and decision errors all the time while these are extremely extremely rare from Idra or Dimaga. They are a level ahead of these players and Idra is another level ahead of Dimaga and is clearly the overall strongest SC2 player right now.
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On August 21 2010 01:11 HowardRoark wrote:
Do someone know when the Nada - TLO showmatch start tomorrow in Central European Time?
I have tried to look at the official site, but can't find anything there, and it is not listed here. That quake-tournament, perhaps if we can look up when that one starts we can figure out when the showmatch start?
Sometime after 11 am. It's pretty vague.
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We all know that Zerg players are more skilled than Terran players. Zerg players have even said it! Really, I don't think any known player that switched from Zerg to Terran has done particularly well with Terran. Maybe oGs.Sir@soni or oGs.GON. CezannePrime switched to Terran for 3-4 weeks, but has recently switched back to Zerg.
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On August 21 2010 01:14 ShrieK wrote:
Don't you feel like the game should be balanced around the potential of each race in the hands of a master? In this case, a race can be "the easiest" and still lose every game, because it has lower potential. Something might be frustrating to play against, but that doesn't mean it will be an effective strategy down the line. Think baneling bust or maybe the "toss building in Terran's base at the beginning" strat, I'm not sure whether r not people still do that.
You're going to tell me what, that Terran has lower potential with their huge variety of hyper efficient units? Mules, PF's, turrets, salvage? Terran has huge potential. I think the players abusing reaper/hellion/banshee right now are digging their own graves in the long run. Because eventually more and more high level players will break out of it, and they will have wasted their time banking too much on cheese and not working on an overall long solid game.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:14 yomi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 00:17 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
How the hell are players like Demuslim, Bratok, TLO etc on a lower level than IdrA/Dimaga? It's just ridiculous to claim this.
They're slower, make worse decisions, have worse build orders, don't time their attacks as well, don't practice as much, don't take the game as seriously, are less talented, and are overall weaker players objectively if you watch their replays closely. You will see muslim bratok and tlo making basic macro and decision errors all the time while these are extremely extremely rare from Idra or Dimaga. They are a level ahead of these players and Idra is another level ahead of Dimaga and is clearly the overall strongest SC2 player right now.
Let's assume you are correct - what is the problem then? Dimaga and IdrA both won their games, I don't care what you say - they aren't so far ahead that they should never lose.
Btw, I see absolutely no reason to say IdrA or Dimaga are more talented than any of the players I listed. Played more games is possible, I don't really know or have any way of knowing.
Let's say Dimaga is the best player in Europe - well, he has the best results out of anyone in Europe too...
Oh and if you listened to Dimaga's interview after winning he basically said he thinks he and Demuslim are on the same level.
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what are the prizes for this tournament?
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On August 21 2010 01:19 Lylat wrote:
WTF Nada vs TLO ??
i second this
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On August 21 2010 01:11 HowardRoark wrote:
Do someone know when the Nada - TLO showmatch start tomorrow in Central European Time?
I have tried to look at the official site, but can't find anything there, and it is not listed here. That quake-tournament, perhaps if we can look up when that one starts we can figure out when the showmatch start?
It was just added to the schedule here: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season5/gamescom/schedule/
It says 10:45 CET.
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I can't wait to see Nada play SC2. This will be awesome. I don't know if if practices though, he might get crushed, but you'd figure even if he doesn't practice SC2 his macro will still be impressive.
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I agree with Jinro. The matchup isn't imbalanced in any traditional way. If I had to describe ZvT, I think the best word would be: BROKEN.
The matchup is broken in different parts and sections of the game. Zerg are incredibly weak and fragile early game. Can't make any decent use of their macro mechanic until they've gotten some sort of an economy going. Plus drone and army production share larvas. And alot of games they simply are forced to guess and take ridiculous chances.
On the other hand, when zerg survives the early/mid-game, their macro mechanic starts to go into "broken"-mode. Terran can't really afford to have their push delayed even 1 minute, lest they give zerg too much time. Every minute of delay, zerg go more and more into overdrive.
It's a side effect of designing the macro mechanics the way Blizzard did. It strengthens different key timings and certain abuseful mechanics for every race at diverse phases of a game, making the timings twice/thrice as powerful as in BW.
And it makes Blizzard's statistics and data mining ladder statistics completely useless.
I'd bet Terran win 70% of any games < ~10 minutes of length, and that zerg has an almost equally scewed percentage for >10 minutes.
Only reason they die more is because you have to survive the first phase to get to the second.
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Switzerland3584 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:00 shlomo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 00:47 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There might be problems TvZ, but people complain about EVERYTHING and EVERY terran win is put down to imbalance - it's not fun.
Maybe if T players did something else than the reaper/hellion/banshee abuse into timing push/allin every damn game, it wouldn't look so cheesy and T players would get a little more (self) respect? The fact is, T harass is very versatile (lol addons) takes very little effort, has little to no opportunity cost since you're walled anyway, while costing a lot to Z and being very challenging to repel properly. Why would I admire the T player using his crutches and sitting behind his lolwall for 20 minutes when the Z player has to really bust his ass just to survive to lair? It's not like once you get past the harass, the Z gets a free win because his late game is so much more better, they just get the priviledge of actually playing standard once they get past that phase, but can definitely still lose because T units are just so damn efficient in general. Z effectively has to work more to win, and T has to work less because cheese will work at least a certain percentage of the time. That's why Z is underrepresented on ladder, and T overrepresented, it's not magical, it's not a mystery reason, it's not even the campaign. It's common sense. People grativate towards the path of least resistance a.k.a. Terran because it gets more wins, and it gets them with less effort overall. Who wants to admire the guy taking that path, really?
Yeah, but Zerg has that also.
Whats with the so called banelings?
Hell they requiere no fucking micro at all, just a-click into enemy bio ball, if it hits, every fucking shit is annihilated within seconds. Watchthe last game of Dimaga vs Demuslim . It won him the game, those fucking suicide talibans even deal damage when killed.
I'm nowhere near stating Zerg is imba, but every race has their strong sides und easy to do things for little effort. So don't blame Terran to be the "0mglulz afk for 20 min, gonna win anyway im so pro" race.
(I'm no Terran at all, despise them, but seriously this whole shit hate thingy is pathetic, start to view the things in a more objective way)
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Sweden33719 Posts
Dimaga's flank was so beautiful in the last game vs DeMuslim tho 
From msn while watching the game
Jonathan 조나단 왈쉬 says:
demuslim makes so many units tho lol
if he can run from behind
well
thats not a nice flank lol
oh
shit
thats
SO SEXY
Sergei Overbet says:
word
i want a baneling plushie!
To me, the biggest problem with TvZ seems to be getting out of the early game vs the many, many different openings T can do. This was a problem in SC1 as well I think, until muta stacking was discovered and basically killed off a lot of Terran options...
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You're going to tell me what, that Terran has lower potential with their huge variety of hyper efficient units? Mules, PF's, turrets, salvage? Terran has huge potential. I think the players abusing reaper/hellion/banshee right now are digging their own graves in the long run. Because eventually more and more high level players will break out of it, and they will have wasted their time banking too much on cheese and not working on an overall long solid game stop fucking putting words in people's mouths ffs
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Banelings?
The baneling bust was figured out a long time ago now and is pretty easy to defend.
As far as using bio v Zerg, not my fault if T players want to force it upon themselves to not use the amazingly efficient hellions, tanks and thors. Would be like trying super hard to use mass lings against wall/tanks....
I mean look at DeMuslim vs Dimaga. He lost all his bio games, won all his mech games.
What a coincidence...
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On August 21 2010 01:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Dimaga's flank was so beautiful in the last game vs DeMuslim tho From msn while watching the game Show nested quote +Jonathan 조나단 왈쉬 says:
demuslim makes so many units tho lol
if he can run from behind
well
thats not a nice flank lol
oh
shit
thats
SO SEXY
Sergei Overbet says:
word
i want a baneling plushie!
To me, the biggest problem with TvZ seems to be getting out of the early game vs the many, many different openings T can do. This was a problem in SC1 as well I think, until muta stacking was discovered and basically killed off a lot of Terran options...
Yeah man, DIMAGA is a beast. My favourite. I hate when he does gimmicky things and loses though, he is so much better than that.
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On August 21 2010 01:20 Silan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:11 HowardRoark wrote:
Do someone know when the Nada - TLO showmatch start tomorrow in Central European Time?
I have tried to look at the official site, but can't find anything there, and it is not listed here. That quake-tournament, perhaps if we can look up when that one starts we can figure out when the showmatch start?
It was just added to the schedule here: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season5/gamescom/schedule/It says 10:45 CET.
So that would mean 11:45 CEST? Or do they mean CEST when using CET? Perhaps using UT would be the best thing to use, since GMT can get confusing aswell since not even United Kingdom are on GMT during the summer, right?
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The biggest problem with TvZ is...as a terran player, as soon as the loading screen ends you can say "okay, I'm going to go super fast 8 rax -> reaper" or "i'm gonna go 1/1/1 banshee", and if the zerg player doesn't scout perfectly, they're done. Yet what can zerg say at the beginning? "....I'm going to one base roach and hope I can hold off either a fast reaper or hellion push" or "I'm going to build 2 extra queens just so I can hold off an early banshee push...". You see the difference? The terran has a solid strategy from the get-go.
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On August 21 2010 01:34 HowardRoark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:20 Silan wrote:On August 21 2010 01:11 HowardRoark wrote:
Do someone know when the Nada - TLO showmatch start tomorrow in Central European Time?
I have tried to look at the official site, but can't find anything there, and it is not listed here. That quake-tournament, perhaps if we can look up when that one starts we can figure out when the showmatch start?
It was just added to the schedule here: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season5/gamescom/schedule/It says 10:45 CET. So that would mean 11:45 CEST? Or do they mean CEST when using CET? Perhaps using UT would be the best thing to use, since GMT can get confusing aswell since not even United Kingdom are on GMT during the summer, right?
It's already in CEST. They just don't put the S i guess.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:18 shlomo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:14 ShrieK wrote:
Don't you feel like the game should be balanced around the potential of each race in the hands of a master? In this case, a race can be "the easiest" and still lose every game, because it has lower potential. Something might be frustrating to play against, but that doesn't mean it will be an effective strategy down the line. Think baneling bust or maybe the "toss building in Terran's base at the beginning" strat, I'm not sure whether r not people still do that. You're going to tell me what, that Terran has lower potential with their huge variety of hyper efficient units? Mules, PF's, turrets, salvage? Terran has huge potential. I think the players abusing reaper/hellion/banshee right now are digging their own graves in the long run. Because eventually more and more high level players will break out of it, and they will have wasted their time banking too much on cheese and not working on an overall long solid game.
Well, this is pretty much the reason I don't play much reaper cheese.... (I don't think opening 12 rax reaper is cheese btw - it's like going 1 fac vult -> cc or something in SC1)
On August 21 2010 01:31 Brad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Dimaga's flank was so beautiful in the last game vs DeMuslim tho From msn while watching the game Jonathan 조나단 왈쉬 says:
demuslim makes so many units tho lol
if he can run from behind
well
thats not a nice flank lol
oh
shit
thats
SO SEXY
Sergei Overbet says:
word
i want a baneling plushie!
To me, the biggest problem with TvZ seems to be getting out of the early game vs the many, many different openings T can do. This was a problem in SC1 as well I think, until muta stacking was discovered and basically killed off a lot of Terran options... Yeah man, DIMAGA is a beast. My favourite. I hate when he does gimmicky things and loses though, he is so much better than that.
Yes I feel the same, he's a lot more scary when he doesn't cheese.
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EPT
