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I can see how you take it that way from how I wrote it, but I was completely thinking the "before the cavern ever shows up" way.
Ultralisks are a common complaint on the Terran side of TvZ, and I would say TLO showed a good counter strategy by going Battlecruisers.
We could go into all the positives and negatives of BCs in the TvZ match-up, but it is still a "meta-game counter" to the Ultralisk none-the-less and that's the point.
The majority of Terrans love Factory units so much (and why wouldn't they, they have shown time and again to be awesome vs Zerg) that they just ride 3-5 factories straight into the end of the game. But once that first push into Zs base is held off, Ultralisks should be the first thing any T player is thinking about and his strategy should change accordingly. Usually it doesn't. (This is what I was talking about when I said "Terran meta-game")
Qxc, specifically, made no transition in his unit mix as the game progressed to account for the Ultralisks that we all knew were coming. (This is what I was talking about when I said "or at least qxc didn't...")
Either way, it's riding the line of proper usage. I'll give it to you.
Anyway, IdrA makes me excited to pick up my copy of SC2. I can't wait to get owned by more Thors while I try and hammer out that balance of units he pulls off so perfectly through that early-mid part of the game.
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Any updates on VODs of the semis and finals?
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IdrA v. Tester seemed kind of sluggish on Tester's side. I guess he just really loves that 2 base collosus push.
Rainbow v. Tester was hands down my favorite series of the beta.
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On July 27 2010 19:46 Jayme wrote:HATERS GONNA HATE. Very good Idra, that Support Bay snipe won the game. But holy crap Ultras are SOOOO slow off the creep 
If by "soooo slow" you mean "the same speed as stalkers, which is pretty damn fast", then yes.
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Calgary25991 Posts
On July 27 2010 22:53 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 22:19 Jayme wrote:On July 27 2010 22:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
I would also like to point to the end-game of his to qxc builds. It seems that while Z has a very rough time getting to Tier 3, IdrA really showed that the Terran meta-game has no answer to Ultralisks at this time, or at least qxc didn't. Qxc didn't attempt to go air or anything, and IdrA just tore straight through him every time once he got settled into T3 unit production and late game macro. I can start to understand why Chill hates it so much when people use this word wrong. Wikipedia - Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.
There is a special set of moves in chess which allows a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if he/she plays in a way that will easily thwart the four-move checkmate before Competitor B makes it obvious that this is what he/she is doing. A more complex version of this was used by Derren Brown in episode 4 of "Trick of the Mind", where he simultaneously 'beat' a selection of grand masters by acting as a proxy, playing them against each other.Looking at the excerpt above, I think I'm fairly correct in the use of it. Qxc knew IdrA would be going Ultralisks, IdrA knew Qxc knew. What happened? Qxc hunkered down and braced for impact once the Cavern went up, he did nothing to force him away. Where is my use of the term incorrect?
The entire thing is just wrong. The fact that you cite it and then get it wrong just compounds my frustration. If Terran has no unit IN THE GAME to counter another unit IN THE GAME then there is no metagaming.
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On July 28 2010 00:28 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 22:53 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 27 2010 22:19 Jayme wrote:On July 27 2010 22:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
I would also like to point to the end-game of his to qxc builds. It seems that while Z has a very rough time getting to Tier 3, IdrA really showed that the Terran meta-game has no answer to Ultralisks at this time, or at least qxc didn't. Qxc didn't attempt to go air or anything, and IdrA just tore straight through him every time once he got settled into T3 unit production and late game macro. I can start to understand why Chill hates it so much when people use this word wrong. Wikipedia - Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.
There is a special set of moves in chess which allows a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if he/she plays in a way that will easily thwart the four-move checkmate before Competitor B makes it obvious that this is what he/she is doing. A more complex version of this was used by Derren Brown in episode 4 of "Trick of the Mind", where he simultaneously 'beat' a selection of grand masters by acting as a proxy, playing them against each other.Looking at the excerpt above, I think I'm fairly correct in the use of it. Qxc knew IdrA would be going Ultralisks, IdrA knew Qxc knew. What happened? Qxc hunkered down and braced for impact once the Cavern went up, he did nothing to force him away. Where is my use of the term incorrect? The entire thing is just wrong. The fact that you cite it and then get it wrong just compounds my frustration. If Terran has no unit IN THE GAME to counter another unit IN THE GAME then there is no metagaming.
Chill is about to unleash the Kraken!
Seriously though, don't use Meta Gaming if you're not 100% sure of how to use it!
I Watched all of the games this morning/last night, and it was beyond epic! Great play by IdrA, Tester, IntoTheRainbow and Qxc, Although I expected some more from QXC!
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On July 28 2010 00:28 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2010 22:53 Jermstuddog wrote:On July 27 2010 22:19 Jayme wrote:On July 27 2010 22:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
I would also like to point to the end-game of his to qxc builds. It seems that while Z has a very rough time getting to Tier 3, IdrA really showed that the Terran meta-game has no answer to Ultralisks at this time, or at least qxc didn't. Qxc didn't attempt to go air or anything, and IdrA just tore straight through him every time once he got settled into T3 unit production and late game macro. I can start to understand why Chill hates it so much when people use this word wrong. Wikipedia - Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.
In simple terms, using out-of-game information, or resources, to affect one's in-game decisions.
There is a special set of moves in chess which allows a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if he/she plays in a way that will easily thwart the four-move checkmate before Competitor B makes it obvious that this is what he/she is doing. A more complex version of this was used by Derren Brown in episode 4 of "Trick of the Mind", where he simultaneously 'beat' a selection of grand masters by acting as a proxy, playing them against each other.Looking at the excerpt above, I think I'm fairly correct in the use of it. Qxc knew IdrA would be going Ultralisks, IdrA knew Qxc knew. What happened? Qxc hunkered down and braced for impact once the Cavern went up, he did nothing to force him away. Where is my use of the term incorrect? The entire thing is just wrong. The fact that you cite it and then get it wrong just compounds my frustration. If Terran has no unit IN THE GAME to counter another unit IN THE GAME then there is no metagaming.
Haha that the definition of epic fail.
Quoting wikipedia and STILL being wrong.
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The only reason people complain about Zerg being UP is because low tier Z is probably weaker than it should be and alot of lesser players sit on that low tier tech... but their T3 is ridiculously OP. Z needs to be rebalanced on both ends.
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where can we find the king of the beta final matches? its not in his vod archives
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oh my god. idra won? -.- i cant believe i went to bed early yesterday =(
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Congrats IdrA, well played Sir.
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Anyone saying Zerg is not UP because IdrA won - that is an extremely weak argument. The only thing that we can deduce from this victory, is that if IdrA and Tester are very close to each other in skill level, ZvT is fairly balanced. Don't forget Tester 2-0'd IdrA in the group stage, so the total result is actually 4-3 to Tester. Really you can't possibly have any credibility in saying that this one match which was 3-2 (the closest you can possibly get in a best of 5) means that Z is not UP.
What I personally believe, is that at a very high level of skill ZvT is quite well balanced or close to being balanced. At the very least, it is more balanced than it is between lower quality players. This should not mean that Z shouldn't be improved or balanced better against other races. Even on these forums, a handful at most, are better or equal to IdrA in skill. The VAST majority of people playing this game are of a lower skill. I would say perhaps that ZvT is way imbalanced all the way up to Diamond level players. Obviously that means something is wrong, you shouldn't cut out a third of the game to the vast majority of players. I bet most people playing will NEVER reach Diamond. The developers just need to find some ways of improving Z for less-skilled players, or nerfing Terran for less-skilled players, without affecting high-level play.
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On July 28 2010 02:01 ta2 wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg is not UP because IdrA won - that is an extremely weak argument. The only thing that we can deduce from this victory, is that if IdrA and Tester are very close to each other in skill level, ZvT is fairly balanced. Don't forget Tester 2-0'd IdrA in the group stage, so the total result is actually 4-3 to Tester. Really you can't possibly have any credibility in saying that this one match which was 3-2 (the closest you can possibly get in a best of 5) means that Z is not UP.
What I personally believe, is that at a very high level of skill ZvT is quite well balanced or close to being balanced. At the very least, it is more balanced than it is between lower quality players. This should not mean that Z shouldn't be improved or balanced better against other races. Even on these forums, a handful at most, are better or equal to IdrA in skill. The VAST majority of people playing this game are of a lower skill. I would say perhaps that ZvT is way imbalanced all the way up to Diamond level players. Obviously that means something is wrong, you shouldn't cut out a third of the game to the vast majority of players. I bet most people playing will NEVER reach Diamond. The developers just need to find some ways of improving Z for less-skilled players, or nerfing Terran for less-skilled players, without affecting high-level play.
You know Tester plays Protoss right?
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On July 28 2010 02:07 LooseMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2010 02:01 ta2 wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg is not UP because IdrA won - that is an extremely weak argument. The only thing that we can deduce from this victory, is that if IdrA and Tester are very close to each other in skill level, ZvT is fairly balanced. Don't forget Tester 2-0'd IdrA in the group stage, so the total result is actually 4-3 to Tester. Really you can't possibly have any credibility in saying that this one match which was 3-2 (the closest you can possibly get in a best of 5) means that Z is not UP.
What I personally believe, is that at a very high level of skill ZvT is quite well balanced or close to being balanced. At the very least, it is more balanced than it is between lower quality players. This should not mean that Z shouldn't be improved or balanced better against other races. Even on these forums, a handful at most, are better or equal to IdrA in skill. The VAST majority of people playing this game are of a lower skill. I would say perhaps that ZvT is way imbalanced all the way up to Diamond level players. Obviously that means something is wrong, you shouldn't cut out a third of the game to the vast majority of players. I bet most people playing will NEVER reach Diamond. The developers just need to find some ways of improving Z for less-skilled players, or nerfing Terran for less-skilled players, without affecting high-level play. You know Tester plays Protoss right?
yeah, lol xD
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The thing is even though they showed the highest level play we've seen so far.... we all know that players will improve massively from the level they are now.
When you say the game isn't balanced at low level you're not really thinking about how the ladder will reduce this problem. Naturally bad Zergs will get matched with even "worse" Terrans if the match-up is imbalanced since they will be lower in the ladder.
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Oh my God. I am so glad I went last night. What an epic experience. Sean thank you, thank you, thank you. You are awesome. TL community that helped put it all together, thank you. Sponsors, thank you. Everyone who was there and shared such a great time, thank you.
Sean, you are the man. I have no idea how you had a voice after 12 strait hours of casting. I was so beat, I wanted to go home at 2:30am... but seeing you suffer though it inspired me. I was ready to 'gg' for the night, but all I had to do was plop myself down in a chair. I COULD DO IT! I stayed until the end and I had a blast. What a great time thank you so much and thank you for autographing my hydralisk! You are the best!
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Isnt it funny that the only 2 maps Tester took off of idra were from Double pylon wall-in? How many of those am i going to come accross in ladder lmao
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what a great event!
other than the first couple of hours that i missed (due to school....) i basically watched the whole launch event from start to finish and it was so entertaining to watch
THANKS DAY[9]!
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I heard that the whole 12 hours will be uploaded, but can just the semis and finals at the end be uploaded seperately please? Would really like to see those again without having to download the whole thing.
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On July 28 2010 02:45 Unfurl wrote:
Isnt it funny that the only 2 maps Tester took off of idra were from Double pylon wall-in? How many of those am i going to come accross in ladder lmao
yeah lol, i think in game 4 idra figured out a way to beat it, but he didn't micro his units properly if he didn't engage on the wide choke where collosus could easily abuse their range he would of had it.
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EPT
