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Hey guys, it's me again, rejoice!
So this is a project that I had in mind for quite a while already, and I thought I'd just make it public already in it's WiP-state so everyone can contribute or use it.
In general, the idea was to have some kind of a "cheat-sheet" for people to look at when facing the various kinds of cheeses, All-Ins, rushes and early aggression openers that you face on the ladder. Those kind of games are arguably the hardest thing for newer and unexperienced players to deal with, myself included, and make up for most of the questions asked on this forum and various other sites.
The replies people get when asking for help are often great, and really helpful, but they're nonetheless spread out. And since most people probably dont want to go through every thread possible to handpick their information, having it in a single, centralized document seemed like a reasonable idea to me.
A few notes before I post the actual document:
1) This is from a Protoss PoV, since it's the only race I really play, so even if I had the nerves to do so, I couldn't even begin to write up something similar for Zerg and Terran. Anyone who likes though, feel free to "steal" the idea and the general setup to make something similar for the other races too 
2) The advice given is assuming that players open with the most standard macro openers for each matchup (Double Gate double Gas for PvP, 1 Gate Expand into Robo or SG for PvT, 1 Gate Expand into SG for PvZ), and is also assuming you scout with a Probe not later than your first Gateway at 15/16 vs T and Z, or not later than your second Gateway at 19 vs P, as well as an additional scout with your first Adept vs Z, checking for Drone count in their natural, as well as what hatches out of the eggs, and then returning to your own Nat before Ling speed finishes around 3:20-3:30. Going for cheeses, rushes, All-Ins from less than 2-3 bases or Twilight Council openings will massively affect the way you need to react to the listed threats - if you need/want to actually react at all. Additionally, it's assumed the Protoss player walls off his Natural against Zerg, his main Ramp against Protoss, and either does a Reaper Wall or walls of his Nat against Terran.
3) This list is FAR from finished. I'm barely a mediocre player myself, so there are lots of All-Ins and similar I don't know how to react to, or don't even know they exist at all, and the reactions I listed might not be exhaustive, or even correct either. This is why I strongly encourage everyone reading this to get involved, post your opinion in this thread, let me know if you think something should be added/removed/changed, etc.
A list of the most common and effective Wall-Offs for the current season's 1v1 maps can be found HERE . Credit to GGemini19 for providing those images (and the amazing BotW series, you should go check that out if you haven't already  )
That said, I'll keep the document locked, to prevent trolling or people contradicting each other and changing things back and forth, but I will regularly check this thread AT LEAST once per day and edit the document accordingly when new things come up.
Now to the list itself, it can be found HERE
As you can see, PvT is one of the matchups that I know the least, so I'll gladly take in anything you guys would add there, specific things I have in mind right now would be Cyclone All-Ins, or 2-1-1 builds, maybe even proxy Banshees or something like this.
I hope you guys like the idea, and I'm looking forward to many contributions. Once the project gets going and the list is a bit more exhaustive, maybe we can even get it pinned by mods or something like that. Also feel free to spread it to other sites that you think can benefit from it, but please credit this site and/or me for it if you do so
~ Sart
Edit: Malhavoc had a pretty good alternative approach to facing Cannon Rushes in PvP, but I found it almost impossible to convert it into an appropriate format for the document, which is why I'll permanently link his post here in the main post: Link
Changelog:
+ Show Spoiler +10.02.2018: Added additional info about Adept scouting to the main post
10.02.2018: Added ArtyK's additions and changes about PvP - Cannon Rush, and PvP - Proxy to the doc
13.02.2018: Added a mention about Wall-Offs for each matchup in the main post after what okright said
13.02.2018: Added an Imgur album with the current season's most common wall-offs
14.02.2018: Credited Gemini for the Wall-Off guide, after ArtyK mentioned it
14.02.2018: Added Proxy Rax and the according reactions to the document after ArtyK's post
14.02.2018: Added more notes to the proxy gate section of the document after ArtyK's post
12.03.2018: Added a permanent link to Malhavoc's post about an alternative approach to Cannon rushing
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With the meta constantly evolving it's gonna be tough to keep this updated but it's a nice initiative.
Though i recommend posting it on reddit allthingsprotoss, you'll hopefully get more contributions because TL strategy is barely surviving :>
I'll add some things but it might be too long for this google doc format :p
PvP vs cannons :
- 2 probes per opponent probes
- ignore pylons, 4 probes per cannons, unless they walled themselves in
- mine from one gas, chrono a zealot then stalkers, make shield batteries if extra minerals
- after the hold you can usually go 4 gate robo allin because their warpgate is delayed, so you kill them by warping in the main while they build cannons at their natural
If they don't expand you're safe vs whatever follow-up they have, as well as a robo in case of DTs
vs proxies : probe scout should check their 2nd pylon timing, it will be delayed if they proxied, meaning you can go look for it
PvZ : first adept should shade a couple times in the natural to check drone count and whatver hatches from the eggs, then go back home before speedling finishes
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On February 10 2018 23:24 ArtyK wrote:
With the meta constantly evolving it's gonna be tough to keep this updated but it's a nice initiative.
Though i recommend posting it on reddit allthingsprotoss, you'll hopefully get more contributions because TL strategy is barely surviving :>
I'll add some things but it might be too long for this google doc format :p
PvP vs cannons :
- 2 probes per opponent probes
- ignore pylons, 4 probes per cannons, unless they walled themselves in
- mine from one gas, chrono a zealot then stalkers, make shield batteries if extra minerals
- after the hold you can usually go 4 gate robo allin because their warpgate is delayed, so you kill them by warping in the main while they build cannons at their natural
If they don't expand you're safe vs whatever follow-up they have, as well as a robo in case of DTs
vs proxies : probe scout should check their 2nd pylon timing, it will be delayed if they proxied, meaning you can go look for it
PvZ : first adept should shade a couple times in the natural to check drone count and whatver hatches from the eggs, then go back home before speedling finishes
Aye, it's a rather big task, but I'm a stubborn person, so I can at least promise you to keep it going and updated as long as I can... and as long as people help me out with it x)
Yeah, I thought about the Allthingsprotoss Reddit, but... even though the SC2 Reddits have a slightly better reputation than other subreddits, I still try to stay clear of that site as much as I can, don't even have an account to post. But if anyone wants to link this thread there, please feel free to do so!
That aside, thanks a lot for the contribution Going to edit the doc to include your additions and proposed changes right now
Edit: Added the part about defending Cannon Rushes, and scouting Proxys to the document. Will add the additional Adept scouting info to the main post instead of the document though, since it's more or less a standard procedure you should be doing every game, and not a reaction to some sort of cheese
Edit2: Edited main post with the additional Adept scouting info, as well as implementing a Changelog in Spoilers for people to keep track of
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Thanks a lot OP, this is very helpful stuff you posted here, keep it up!
As a small request, if you could add some Replays or VODs, that would be absolutely fantastic.
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On February 12 2018 04:24 Sundr wrote:
Thanks a lot OP, this is very helpful stuff you posted here, keep it up!
As a small request, if you could add some Replays or VODs, that would be absolutely fantastic.
Ty, I'm glad you like it! Gonna check later if I can find some fitting pro VoDs
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Great idea, will keep following closely
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On February 13 2018 18:59 Romnel wrote:
Great idea, will keep following closely
Thanks to you too
@Sundr: I'm gonna try to maybe link a relevant pro VoD to every cheese mentioned in the document, but it's gonna take a while to dig out one for each, so I can't yet give an E.T.A. on when I'll be able to work on that. Aiming for next weekend though
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While playing zerg the most effective way I found protoss can defend against early aggression is by walling off and having photon cannons or stalkers/adepts placed on the other side, the lings would die easily, unable to break through.
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On February 13 2018 22:48 okright wrote:
While playing zerg the most effective way I found protoss can defend against early aggression is by walling off and having photon cannons or stalkers/adepts placed on the other side, the lings would die easily, unable to break through.
Ironically, I just had a full discussion thread about forge first expansions about a week ago here. The tl;dr is basically that while it IS slightly safer against frontal attacks, it's not worth the lost economy and bigger weakness to ling drops compared to a Gate First Expansion. It also leaves you unable to act out your own aggression to punish failed cheeses
I'm going to actually include the walling off part in the main post though, since you're right, it's something the Toss player should always do anyway, regardless of what kind of Zerg opener he faces
Edit: done
Edit2: I also added a link to an imgur album showing the current season's most common wall-offs for 1v1 maps
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How do you deal with proxy 3 gate or proxy 3 rax?
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On wall off, it is definitely effective, especially against Zerg, but there's a problem. If you go for it, than you're pretty much giving up early exp option, because:
- On several maps it isn't possible to effectively wall off since natural exp has either wide entrance or several entrances but you can make wall against early aggression with 2-3 building max, you just simply can't build more.
- When you decide to wall off on your natural exp, you heavily delay Pylon>Gate>Probe production>Army production.
In several pro replays I've seen, Toss players going for natural exp wall off, but it doesn't bite them so hard since on that level of play, opponent rarely go for all-in/cheeses.
On February 13 2018 21:13 SartPls wrote:
@Sundr: I'm gonna try to maybe link a relevant pro VoD to every cheese mentioned in the document, but it's gonna take a while to dig out one for each, so I can't yet give an E.T.A. on when I'll be able to work on that. Aiming for next weekend though
Cool, no rush, whenever you'll have time. Pro replays/VODs would be great, but not very necessary IMO. It would be awesome if you could post your own, or some folks here like to share their replays as well. Skill doesn't matter that much, but being able to see an execution on any level of play would be interesting and educating anyway.
Cheers!
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GG emini 19 makes the wall-off guides on ATP every season :>
On February 14 2018 14:44 Sundr wrote:
On wall off, it is definitely effective, especially against Zerg, but there's a problem. If you go for it, than you're pretty much giving up early exp option, because:
- On several maps it isn't possible to effectively wall off since natural exp has either wide entrance or several entrances but you can make wall against early aggression with 2-3 building max, you just simply can't build more.
- When you decide to wall off on your natural exp, you heavily delay Pylon>Gate>Probe production>Army production.
In several pro replays I've seen, Toss players going for natural exp wall off, but it doesn't bite them so hard since on that level of play, opponent rarely go for all-in/cheeses.
Walling off is the only opening strategy for PvZ at all levels of play. Delaying your eco very slightly to build at the natural has absolutely no impact for 99.9% players. It is necessary in the early game to hold off allins, and later to deny runbys.
It has nothing to do with pros being better or seeing less allins, every other option is strictly worse in the matchup.
And the wall-off guides show that you don't need that many buildings on any map. Just need an extra building to seal the wall in case of trouble.
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On February 14 2018 18:32 ArtyK wrote:
GG emini 19 makes the wall-off guides on ATP every season :>
Makes sense, gonna credit him in the main post, ty!
Edit: Done
On February 14 2018 18:32 ArtyK wrote:
Walling off is the only opening strategy for PvZ at all levels of play. Delaying your eco very slightly to build at the natural has absolutely no impact for 99.9% players. It is necessary in the early game to hold off allins, and later to deny runbys.
It has nothing to do with pros being better or seeing less allins, every other option is strictly worse in the matchup.
And the wall-off guides show that you don't need that many buildings on any map. Just need an extra building to seal the wall in case of trouble.
I SLIGHTLY disagree. There can be an argument made for walling off your main ramp first, and your Nat with later buildings, because a Main Wall is technically safer against 12 Pool. But since you won't be able to scout 12 pool fast enough to do that main ramp wall REACTIVELY, and the Nat Wall is better in basically every single other situation (while still being able to hold 12 pools with drone pulls), going for the Nat Wall pretty much every game should be the correct choice, yeah
On February 14 2018 09:24 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
How do you deal with proxy 3 gate or proxy 3 rax?
Proxy rax is one of the builds I'm not very familiar playing against, so I'd love if someone else could answer this. Against proxy gates though, it depends on how early you scout it, and if they try to pool an army before attacking, or just rally in. If you're able to scout it early and/or they try to pool a small army first, rushing out a Robo or SG for an Immortal or Void Ray respectively, while building a Pylon to close off your main Wall will basically win you the game right there. Otherwise, 2+ Shield Batteries and constant production out of your initial Gateways (either T1 unit is fine, although Stalkers might stress your economy too much if the contain goes on for too long)
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On February 14 2018 21:15 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 18:32 ArtyK wrote:
GG emini 19 makes the wall-off guides on ATP every season :> Makes sense, gonna credit him in the main post, ty! Edit: Done Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 18:32 ArtyK wrote:
Walling off is the only opening strategy for PvZ at all levels of play. Delaying your eco very slightly to build at the natural has absolutely no impact for 99.9% players. It is necessary in the early game to hold off allins, and later to deny runbys.
It has nothing to do with pros being better or seeing less allins, every other option is strictly worse in the matchup.
And the wall-off guides show that you don't need that many buildings on any map. Just need an extra building to seal the wall in case of trouble. I SLIGHTLY disagree. There can be an argument made for walling off your main ramp first, and your Nat with later buildings, because a Main Wall is technically safer against 12 Pool. But since you won't be able to scout 12 pool fast enough to do that main ramp wall REACTIVELY, and the Nat Wall is better in basically every single other situation (while still being able to hold 12 pools with drone pulls), going for the Nat Wall pretty much every game should be the correct choice, yeah Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 09:24 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
How do you deal with proxy 3 gate or proxy 3 rax? Proxy rax is one of the builds I'm not very familiar playing against, so I'd love if someone else could answer this. Against proxy gates though, it depends on how early you scout it, and if they try to pool an army before attacking, or just rally in. If you're able to scout it early and/or they try to pool a small army first, rushing out a Robo or SG for an Immortal or Void Ray respectively, while building a Pylon to close off your main Wall will basically win you the game right there. Otherwise, 2+ Shield Batteries and constant production out of your initial Gateways (either T1 unit is fine, although Stalkers might stress your economy too much if the contain goes on for too long)
Yeah but if it's safer against a maybe 30% of the builds you'll see on ladder and worse vs everything else i wouldn't say we disagree. Of course theres no perfect opening but natural wall-off is as good as it gets.
vs proxy gates you can fully wall the main ramp and add shield batteries while chronoing units, then he can't even get in.
vs proxy rax once you see nothing in the terrans main you can check for proxies with a probe and your first stalker, that way you can even harass the building scvs.
At home you want to keep chronoing stalkers and make a shield battery, an keep kiting marines with stalkers, abusing the range and mobility to get damage in before they even reach your base
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On February 14 2018 21:52 ArtyK wrote:
Yeah but if it's safer against a maybe 30% of the builds you'll see on ladder and worse vs everything else i wouldn't say we disagree. Of course theres no perfect opening but natural wall-off is as good as it gets.
vs proxy gates you can fully wall the main ramp and add shield batteries while chronoing units, then he can't even get in.
vs proxy rax once you see nothing in the terrans main you can check for proxies with a probe and your first stalker, that way you can even harass the building scvs.
At home you want to keep chronoing stalkers and make a shield battery, an keep kiting marines with stalkers, abusing the range and mobility to get damage in before they even reach your base
ok fair enough, "disagree" was probably the wrong word then, just wanted to add it for completeness' sake.
Thanks for the elaboration about proxys, will add those to the document in a sec
Edit:done
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As a zerg, I find that sim city and proper building placement is most important and natural wall should be used almost exclusively. Work on your placement and try making it second nature. I win a lot of games because of misplaced buildings. Keep in mind too where you place buildings that are important later as well. Such as your cyber core, make sure it can't be easily sniped. I imagine it is frustrating to lose to and all in, even more so if all you had to do is warp in some stalkers, adepts or a sentry. Also can't forget to use shield batteries they are amazing at holding things, sometimes more than a cannon, thats situational of course.
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On February 17 2018 02:01 Shakattak wrote:
As a zerg, I find that sim city and proper building placement is most important and natural wall should be used almost exclusively. Work on your placement and try making it second nature. I win a lot of games because of misplaced buildings. Keep in mind too where you place buildings that are important later as well. Such as your cyber core, make sure it can't be easily sniped. I imagine it is frustrating to lose to and all in, even more so if all you had to do is warp in some stalkers, adepts or a sentry. Also can't forget to use shield batteries they are amazing at holding things, sometimes more than a cannon, thats situational of course.
Yes, absolutely, wall-ins are one of the most important aspects as Protoss, which is why I included it in the main post already instead of the document with other reactionary measures.
Nevertheless, the Cyber Core IS always exposed in a PvZ wall, there's no way around that. You really can't be greedy enough to wait and make the wall with Gateways only, that won't work.
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This isn't necessarily an update for the document itself, but since I made this with a focus on defending different styles, for those who didn't see it yet, GGemini19 uploaded a new BotW for PvZ with a massive focus on defending both the early Ling floods as well as the newly emerged Roach/Ravager and Roach/Hydra midgame pushes. The build can be found HERE (Reddit) and HERE (Spawningtool), but will surely also get a Teamliquid post soonTM
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On February 18 2018 07:53 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 02:01 Shakattak wrote:
As a zerg, I find that sim city and proper building placement is most important and natural wall should be used almost exclusively. Work on your placement and try making it second nature. I win a lot of games because of misplaced buildings. Keep in mind too where you place buildings that are important later as well. Such as your cyber core, make sure it can't be easily sniped. I imagine it is frustrating to lose to and all in, even more so if all you had to do is warp in some stalkers, adepts or a sentry. Also can't forget to use shield batteries they are amazing at holding things, sometimes more than a cannon, thats situational of course. Yes, absolutely, wall-ins are one of the most important aspects as Protoss, which is why I included it in the main post already instead of the document with other reactionary measures. Nevertheless, the Cyber Core IS always exposed in a PvZ wall, there's no way around that. You really can't be greedy enough to wait and make the wall with Gateways only, that won't work.
Okay but i just feel like sometimes you should wait a bit to do so. Sniping that cyber core is huge you aren't gonna win a lot of PvZ if your cyber is susceptible to roach ravage or hydra pushes.
plus building a wall at the nat for you first gate and cyber is inherently greedy, you can do it safely I guess but against a 13/12 your cyber is gonna be building still and vunerable and its gonna suck when the ravager roach ling swarms in and zealots are all you can warp. id say the safest is 1 gate stargate because oracles are good vs roach ravager and ling.
That may be safer but that said mostly it comes down to control on whether you can can hold cheese. Lots of toss wait for the two gate and cyber later so you can transition into adept play and punish greed harshly. Force the cheesy player to be honest as he can. If you hold without a forge then the zerg lost more than you did usually, defend against drops and it should be okay.
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On February 22 2018 21:53 Shakattak wrote:
Okay but i just feel like sometimes you should wait a bit to do so. Sniping that cyber core is huge you aren't gonna win a lot of PvZ if your cyber is susceptible to roach ravage or hydra pushes.
plus building a wall at the nat for you first gate and cyber is inherently greedy, you can do it safely I guess but against a 13/12 your cyber is gonna be building still and vunerable and its gonna suck when the ravager roach ling swarms in and zealots are all you can warp. id say the safest is 1 gate stargate because oracles are good vs roach ravager and ling.
That may be safer but that said mostly it comes down to control on whether you can can hold cheese. Lots of toss wait for the two gate and cyber later so you can transition into adept play and punish greed harshly. Force the cheesy player to be honest as he can. If you hold without a forge then the zerg lost more than you did usually, defend against drops and it should be okay.
Not quite sure what you mean with "waiting a bit"? Like, there is no way you can ever delay your Cyber core because that delays your Stargate and that usually means you're dead.
The Wall at your Nat is your safest bet against everything that isn't 12 pool, which would be the only zerg opener that requires a wall on your main ramp instead. That said, since you're still able to hold a 12 pool with a Nat Wall, the few games where you get 12 pooled aren't worth getting a main ramp wall every game, since the Nat Wall is better in literally every non-12-pool-situation while still being able to hold a 12 pool with drone pulls etc.
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Talking about cannon rushes, someone said already about the correct counter strategy, but that works only if you have found the rush in time (or they are just rushing into your face). If instead you discovered it late when you can't avoid the first cannon from warping in, there's another strategy that works really well. Since when you have not noticed the rush immediately it means the first cannon was warped not too close, you have a bit of time; it's also necessary you use your scouting probe, or else you manage to get a probe out alive immediately:
- ignore his probe and warping cannons if are close to other active cannons, attack them only if he tries to warp too close to you out of his cannons' range
- take second gas if not taken already
- build second nexus in another distant part of the map
- build proxy pylon next to his base, and a stargate as soon as possible
- keep mining from your base as much as you can, but protect your probes from his cannons
- when your main is almost falling, recall all your probes to your second nexus, and take gas
- keep producing void rays from the proxy stargate. and attack his main. kill pylons first
- you either win on the spot, or he loses his base and tries to rebuild on your lost base, in which case you are economically way ahead
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Sorry for the late replay, was really busy the last few days. I'll go through your post later today and then edit the document @Malhavoc , but thanks already!
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With the decent removal of pre-lair zergling drops, walling off will pay more dividends.
Basically, whenever a new map comes out, play it as zerg for 5-10 games. Look at what you can do with it. Also be looking for how protoss opponents are walling off. Then enable that map on ladder for your protoss.
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Alright, I finally got around to give it some thought, my apologies again for the late reaction.
@Malhavoc: I get your point, but I think it's more or less impossible to convert your post in an appropriate one-/two-liner to add to the document, so I'll just link your post directly in the first post if you don't mind. And thanks again!
Edit: done
@KR_4EVR: It is indeed, but having a proper wall has always been one of the most important things in PvZ, which is why I stressed it so much in the main post. Thanks a lot for the input though
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EPT
