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On December 23 2015 15:36 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:23 heishe wrote:On December 23 2015 02:40 gulii wrote:
Just started playing. (Late I know)
Been playing BW for ages when I was younger so I have macro, APM etc.
BUT! ZvT - What the hell do I build against mass Liberators? Vipers (their bomb ability) melt them Not anymore - PB nerf is going to cause some serious problems with that matchup Just played some koreans today who used mass lib and marine as their end game comp and it was pretty broken. Everything on the ground gets shredded and corruptors can't deal with mass lib so you're left with vipers as your only counter except 1) PB is very expensive 2) vipers are very expensive and will die while PB'ing 3) the damage nerf cripples PB vs liberators
I have faced mass lib/marine and you are incorrect when you say it's broken. It's not that hard to beat, even without vipers. Vipers make it easier of course, but corruptors do a good job as long as you focus each liberator with them rather then A move and wait for the libs to die. You just need to engage better is my guess if you are losing to it as that comp isn't very good, especially in late game when Ultra's take the field.
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On December 23 2015 16:33 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 15:36 Merkmerk wrote:On December 23 2015 03:23 heishe wrote:On December 23 2015 02:40 gulii wrote:
Just started playing. (Late I know)
Been playing BW for ages when I was younger so I have macro, APM etc.
BUT! ZvT - What the hell do I build against mass Liberators? Vipers (their bomb ability) melt them Not anymore - PB nerf is going to cause some serious problems with that matchup Just played some koreans today who used mass lib and marine as their end game comp and it was pretty broken. Everything on the ground gets shredded and corruptors can't deal with mass lib so you're left with vipers as your only counter except 1) PB is very expensive 2) vipers are very expensive and will die while PB'ing 3) the damage nerf cripples PB vs liberators I have faced mass lib/marine and you are incorrect when you say it's broken. It's not that hard to beat, even without vipers. Vipers make it easier of course, but corruptors do a good job as long as you focus each liberator with them rather then A move and wait for the libs to die. You just need to engage better is my guess if you are losing to it as that comp isn't very good, especially in late game when Ultra's take the field.
Disagree. Mass liberators shred corruptors and if you start focus firing liberators then they will auto clump and die even faster.
But I would love to see replays of you dealing with this - especially the koreans using it - if you have any vods or anything
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Mass as in how many? 6-9? 10+? If terran makes this investement early then harass him with mass lings and banes to take out his small bio. Loads of cheap expandable units so each liberator shot has less value.
You can always use corruptors if you magic box and move them on top of liberators, then focus fire. Your corruptors should not take too much damage from them. If liberators pull back to force your corruptors to clump, manually move them and attack on the move, keeping magic box spread at all cost.
If this is late game composition, you should have parasitic bomb and maybe even fungal ready so they don't split.
If he is liberators heavy, his ground army will be smaller. Deny his expansions with mass ling forces, expand yourself and protect your bases with spores.
It also might be worth it to force engagements to keep liberator count down during the game.
As a troll tactic, neural parasite on some of the libs + fungal on bio to keep infestors alive can do wonders. Bonus points if marines shoot some of them down.
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^
I think you should just watch some of the GSL matches that just happened to see what I'm talking about.
PB nerf is going to make that very problematic
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Corruptors have 2 base armor. Liberator does 7 base dmg per shot. Upgrade armor for corruptors and you can fight libs no problem. Just don't clump them. Also make some queens for transfuse only. Pull back orange corruptors, heal them, send them again. Also smth to keep in mind - 7 corruptors 2-shot a lib, 13 corrupotrs 1-shot a lib (no upgrades).
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It's mass liberators that are the problem, not 3-5.
I mean can you show me any vids with mass libs being dealt with using corruptors?
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On December 24 2015 04:55 Merkmerk wrote:
^
I think you should just watch some of the GSL matches that just happened to see what I'm talking about.
PB nerf is going to make that very problematic
If you are talking about Soulkey versus TY, well Soulkey micro'd the corruptors horribly (all clumped) and a couple vipers would have helped. Even with the nerf, 60 damage is still going to be good trust me.
I can look for a few replays on it or make sure to rename on the next one I play versus  .
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On December 24 2015 07:46 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 04:55 Merkmerk wrote:
^
I think you should just watch some of the GSL matches that just happened to see what I'm talking about.
PB nerf is going to make that very problematic If you are talking about Soulkey versus TY, well Soulkey micro'd the corruptors horribly (all clumped) and a couple vipers would have helped. Even with the nerf, 60 damage is still going to be good trust me. I can look for a few replays on it or make sure to rename on the next one I play versus .
Gladly donate to your stream if you can do that
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Hi there. Sorry if this has already been covered in an earlier post but theres a lot to read and i didnt find it.
I switched from toss to zerg in LotV. Im a high platinum zerg atm and the thing thats holding me back is my ZvZ. Its atrocious. Talking to zergs on ladder and playing games makes it seem like its just early pool and gas and micro ling/bane battles to determine who wins. Im not so good at that, im much more comfortable with a roach/ravager build, but i cant seem to pull it off. If anyone can post a build or replays or just some general help with what i should do in ZvZ that ISNT ling/bane oriented, i would be super appreciative. I think at some point im just gonna have to grind out the micro mechanics to get good at it, but i realllllyyy dont want to deal with that at the moment Thanks! :D
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The PB nerfs are unnecessary, I don't think the development team realizes that Liberators in numbers 8 + absolutely rules the skies unless you have crushing air superiority already.
^ As to ZvZ guy, early defensive Roach builds are totally doable, I played against this one guy and he did kinda like a 2 base +1 speed Roach attack and expanded behind it and it was really strong and good against early pressure. I've been fancying a gas/pool/hatch on small maps because cheese is ridiculous right now and hatch/gas/pool into banelings and +1 melee and start waging a micro war.
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On December 24 2015 14:43 Tempest wrote:Hi there. Sorry if this has already been covered in an earlier post but theres a lot to read and i didnt find it. I switched from toss to zerg in LotV. Im a high platinum zerg atm and the thing thats holding me back is my ZvZ. Its atrocious. Talking to zergs on ladder and playing games makes it seem like its just early pool and gas and micro ling/bane battles to determine who wins. Im not so good at that, im much more comfortable with a roach/ravager build, but i cant seem to pull it off. If anyone can post a build or replays or just some general help with what i should do in ZvZ that ISNT ling/bane oriented, i would be super appreciative. I think at some point im just gonna have to grind out the micro mechanics to get good at it, but i realllllyyy dont want to deal with that at the moment Thanks! :D
There was a gasless opener in hots, where you wall in your natural with evo, spine, roach warren and queen. You could then skip the king bane war and jump straight to roaches. Not sure if still viable in lotv with the faster third, or if the maps allow the wall in though...
Otherwise I think you have to open ling bane, or you die if your opponent goes heavy ling bane himself. There is a defensive bane opener I think, where you get later gas, baneling nest before speed (or maybe not speed at all??), and just defend your ramp with banes while you get roaches.
On the other hand I am gold, so you shouldn't trust anything I say. But the above is what I have understood, and it fits pretty well with my experience in gold. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm/debunk.
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On December 24 2015 15:09 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 14:43 Tempest wrote:Hi there. Sorry if this has already been covered in an earlier post but theres a lot to read and i didnt find it. I switched from toss to zerg in LotV. Im a high platinum zerg atm and the thing thats holding me back is my ZvZ. Its atrocious. Talking to zergs on ladder and playing games makes it seem like its just early pool and gas and micro ling/bane battles to determine who wins. Im not so good at that, im much more comfortable with a roach/ravager build, but i cant seem to pull it off. If anyone can post a build or replays or just some general help with what i should do in ZvZ that ISNT ling/bane oriented, i would be super appreciative. I think at some point im just gonna have to grind out the micro mechanics to get good at it, but i realllllyyy dont want to deal with that at the moment Thanks! :D There was a gasless opener in hots, where you wall in your natural with evo, spine, roach warren and queen. You could then skip the king bane war and jump straight to roaches. Not sure if still viable in lotv with the faster third, or if the maps allow the wall in though... Otherwise I think you have to open ling bane, or you die if your opponent goes heavy ling bane himself. There is a defensive bane opener I think, where you get later gas, baneling nest before speed (or maybe not speed at all??), and just defend your ramp with banes while you get roaches. On the other hand I am gold, so you shouldn't trust anything I say. But the above is what I have understood, and it fits pretty well with my experience in gold. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm/debunk.
That was so amazing ! You could go gasless even in ZvP and ZvT. Loved it.
Now impossible with Reaper and Adepts 
Also with the new larvae system you have too many minerals and not enough larvae when you go gasless.
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On December 11 2015 23:54 cop354g wrote:
How to win protos who sits on base massing void rays? I have been taking expansions and droning up but it always results in loss because I simply cannot drone and make enough units to defend the incoming void ray assault. If I make hydras too soon, I have not enough economy to back it up and trying to bruteforce into protoss base is absolutely futile and wasting that time waiting for protoss with making units with bad economy also results in loss because too few units.
I never have enough units to kill void rays despite and because of having 3-4 bases. So it always feels as depressing that I cant do anything about it and I am just waiting for protoss to win the game with void rays. I am always busy and keeping money low and building shit as fast as I can and not being supply capped but I never have enough units, what the fuck is that?
Also hydras absolutely melt when protoss also builds colossus with void rays, so how to deal with that in time?
How to win protos massing void rays (+colossus)?
I've already won vs someone just massing void with this :
At first, you just make extra queens to prevent a hatch snipe with voids, and keep droning, saturate 3 bases + 6 gaz (start b4 because main will be mined out for transfering drone and keeping your income).
Start +1, and go for hydra den + range upgrade, bank mineral and gaz, keep making queen.
Then you can do a queen + hydra bust with nyndus close to his B3 : transfuse, keep rallying units with your nyndus, add some spores and spread creep and advance :deny his B3 spot.
After assault his B2 wall while building a nyndus in his main : or he defend the main : you kill the wall, or he defend wall you back to nyndus and enter in the main.
With colossus void, i haven't played it really, i guess you can try teching lurker + viper +spores and you abduct collosus or void, or PB them (dunno if it works on collossus too as he can be hit by air-air units). But it's not field tested.
Vs phoenix adept,
If i face it i will try spores + roach burrow movement, and give you feedbacks if it works or not.
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On December 24 2015 17:16 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 15:09 Cascade wrote:On December 24 2015 14:43 Tempest wrote:Hi there. Sorry if this has already been covered in an earlier post but theres a lot to read and i didnt find it. I switched from toss to zerg in LotV. Im a high platinum zerg atm and the thing thats holding me back is my ZvZ. Its atrocious. Talking to zergs on ladder and playing games makes it seem like its just early pool and gas and micro ling/bane battles to determine who wins. Im not so good at that, im much more comfortable with a roach/ravager build, but i cant seem to pull it off. If anyone can post a build or replays or just some general help with what i should do in ZvZ that ISNT ling/bane oriented, i would be super appreciative. I think at some point im just gonna have to grind out the micro mechanics to get good at it, but i realllllyyy dont want to deal with that at the moment Thanks! :D There was a gasless opener in hots, where you wall in your natural with evo, spine, roach warren and queen. You could then skip the king bane war and jump straight to roaches. Not sure if still viable in lotv with the faster third, or if the maps allow the wall in though... Otherwise I think you have to open ling bane, or you die if your opponent goes heavy ling bane himself. There is a defensive bane opener I think, where you get later gas, baneling nest before speed (or maybe not speed at all??), and just defend your ramp with banes while you get roaches. On the other hand I am gold, so you shouldn't trust anything I say. But the above is what I have understood, and it fits pretty well with my experience in gold. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm/debunk. That was so amazing ! You could go gasless even in ZvP and ZvT. Loved it. Now impossible with Reaper and Adepts Also with the new larvae system you have too many minerals and not enough larvae when you go gasless.
Well, this is zvz, so no reapers or adepts, and the opponent zerg will be equally short on larvae, which in my mind should impact a ling-bane build at least as much as a roach-queen build.
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I'm mid diamond and I always go gasless 6 queen opener in zvt (about 70% winrate). My build is:
14h
(ext.trick)15p
(2x ext.trick) 16 ov
18 2x queen
22 2x lings
24 ov
26 2x queen
32 ov
36 2x queen
than you take 2x gas, and play whatever you want.
In zvz on some maps you can go gasless too, but it's a build order loss vs 12p allins and on maps with gold bases it's obviously not viable.
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On December 23 2015 05:05 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Stargate play is picking up steam again (which is cool because it forces the Protoss to multitask) and they can wreak some havoc on Queens and drones.
Biggest mistake I see people making is dropping 1 spore per base. Even if you drop 3 (2 in mineral line one on the tip of the hatchery) sure you lost 3 drones and 75 minerals x 3 but every Phoenix is precious and costs gas, if they are losing even 1 everytime they swoop in to good Queen focus fire and 3 Spores firing away it quickly turns them into Overlord hunters and nothing more.
If they are commiting that much tech and gas to air play, drop those spores and drop em heavy.
What I see players do is build 2 spores per base, one at each edge of the mineral line. This way, phoenix cannot lift a drone without being hit. The issue is, however, that the phoenix can still be micro'd properly to take only shields damage and still kill a drone, even with 2 spores.
I'm starting to wonder if spores are even worth, since the phoenix are essentially garenteed to do damage up until actual anti air like hydralisk/ corruptor come into play.
I think the best response would simply to go queen heavy and not build any spores. A pack of phoenix can't kill 3 queens with transfuse energy (assuming good target fire by the other two queens not lifted). But then the issue of mobility comes up and the phoenix just dance around the queens lifting drones.
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On December 25 2015 10:54 AkashSky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 05:05 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Stargate play is picking up steam again (which is cool because it forces the Protoss to multitask) and they can wreak some havoc on Queens and drones.
Biggest mistake I see people making is dropping 1 spore per base. Even if you drop 3 (2 in mineral line one on the tip of the hatchery) sure you lost 3 drones and 75 minerals x 3 but every Phoenix is precious and costs gas, if they are losing even 1 everytime they swoop in to good Queen focus fire and 3 Spores firing away it quickly turns them into Overlord hunters and nothing more.
If they are commiting that much tech and gas to air play, drop those spores and drop em heavy. What I see players do is build 2 spores per base, one at each edge of the mineral line. This way, phoenix cannot lift a drone without being hit. The issue is, however, that the phoenix can still be micro'd properly to take only shields damage and still kill a drone, even with 2 spores. I'm starting to wonder if spores are even worth, since the phoenix are essentially garenteed to do damage up until actual anti air like hydralisk/ corruptor come into play. I think the best response would simply to go queen heavy and not build any spores. A pack of phoenix can't kill 3 queens with transfuse energy (assuming good target fire by the other two queens not lifted). But then the issue of mobility comes up and the phoenix just dance around the queens lifting drones.
The other problem with trying to go queen heavy is that before you get to three queens he will fly in when you have one and kill it. He will systematically kill all of your queens before you get three per base. Plus going mass queen like this is a very heavy mineral dump if you try to get them up before phoenix are in large numbers; this hurts your eco early on.
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haha looking at recent posts I see that you guys now know what I was talking about a couple of days ago :D
Phoenix are the bane of my existence. There is no hard counter to them even if you know exactly what the Protoss is playing.
Maybe I should try 5 hatch (1 macro hatch or maybe 2) with about 3 spore per base and 1 spore inbetween bases. Macro hatches with queens for always inject to hit larvae and heavy droning.
But what transition then?
- Too many phoenix do hard counter mutas
- Too many phoenix do counter hydras
- Ravager can't hit phoenix
- Infestor only works in first game and second game protoss will split phoenix and pick up infestors
- Corruptor are too slow
- Mass queen/spores lose agains gateway push.
Only thing that works is many lings and ultralisks. I wil play ladder later and tell you guys about what I find out if I find a Protoss who plays phoenix heavy style. Biggest problem is about 80% of my matches are ZvZ. I don't know why
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I hope you guys saw GSL. Protoss opened phoenix and won game super easy. it was like watching Grandmaster versus Silver.
Zerg build spores and hydra but still lose. Go watch Armani versus Myonigsk. Very strong Protoss build !
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How did pro's defend vs it in the past? Its not that phoenix got buffed or hydralisk/queen got nerfed.
What changed? Is it adept/po that makes mass ling counters unviable now?
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EPT
