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On December 25 2015 23:17 Nazara wrote:
How did pro's defend vs it in the past? Its not that phoenix got buffed or hydralisk/queen got nerfed.
What changed? Is it adept/po that makes mass ling counters unviable now?
timings and larvae changed 
Back in the days you had 20 drones more than protoss when you played greedy and opened with hatches first. now protoss is slightly ahead until about 40~ probes then zerg pushes slightly ahead. There is no time when Zerg has a big worker lead unless the protoss stops production alltogether.
I feel people don't quite realize yet how strong Phoenixes are in PvZ right now. Muyngisk really showed how strong they are today and completely destroyed Armani with Phoenix and then transitions into whatever he liked to finish the zerg off.
At the moment the protoss build phoenix the zerg put spore and hydra den down and then was behind. It is a very weird thing to observe because in a normal world that would be a perfect counter to response to it, but in the current meta it isn't. Building phoenixes is a smaller commitment for the Protoss than the counter reaction for the Zerg is and even then the phoenixes are even hard countered by it.
(Note: This is no balance whine. I am just trying to figure out what to do)
I think the best thing that could happen is if they make Hydras biological only. They can nerf something else if they want to like making ravagers armored or something.
In my opinion there is no counter to Adept - Phoenix - Adept with upgrades currently. You have to build a critical mass Hydras to deal with Phoenix, but Hydras get slaughtered by upgraded Adepts.
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On December 26 2015 00:59 A_needle_jog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 23:17 Nazara wrote:
How did pro's defend vs it in the past? Its not that phoenix got buffed or hydralisk/queen got nerfed.
What changed? Is it adept/po that makes mass ling counters unviable now? timings and larvae changed Back in the days you had 20 drones more than protoss when you played greedy and opened with hatches first. now protoss is slightly ahead until about 40~ probes then zerg pushes slightly ahead. There is no time when Zerg has a big worker lead unless the protoss stops production alltogether. I feel people don't quite realize yet how strong Phoenixes are in PvZ right now. Muyngisk really showed how strong they are today and completely destroyed Armani with Phoenix and then transitions into whatever he liked to finish the zerg off. At the moment the protoss build phoenix the zerg put spore and hydra den down and then was behind. It is a very weird thing to observe because in a normal world that would be a perfect counter to response to it, but in the current meta it isn't. Building phoenixes is a smaller commitment for the Protoss than the counter reaction for the Zerg is and even then the phoenixes are even hard countered by it. (Note: This is no balance whine. I am just trying to figure out what to do) I think the best thing that could happen is if they make Hydras biological only. They can nerf something else if they want to like making ravagers armored or something. In my opinion there is no counter to Adept - Phoenix - Adept with upgrades currently. You have to build a critical mass Hydras to deal with Phoenix, but Hydras get slaughtered by upgraded Adepts.
Did you test it out the mondragon approach?
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On December 26 2015 01:02 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 00:59 A_needle_jog wrote:On December 25 2015 23:17 Nazara wrote:
How did pro's defend vs it in the past? Its not that phoenix got buffed or hydralisk/queen got nerfed.
What changed? Is it adept/po that makes mass ling counters unviable now? timings and larvae changed Back in the days you had 20 drones more than protoss when you played greedy and opened with hatches first. now protoss is slightly ahead until about 40~ probes then zerg pushes slightly ahead. There is no time when Zerg has a big worker lead unless the protoss stops production alltogether. I feel people don't quite realize yet how strong Phoenixes are in PvZ right now. Muyngisk really showed how strong they are today and completely destroyed Armani with Phoenix and then transitions into whatever he liked to finish the zerg off. At the moment the protoss build phoenix the zerg put spore and hydra den down and then was behind. It is a very weird thing to observe because in a normal world that would be a perfect counter to response to it, but in the current meta it isn't. Building phoenixes is a smaller commitment for the Protoss than the counter reaction for the Zerg is and even then the phoenixes are even hard countered by it. (Note: This is no balance whine. I am just trying to figure out what to do) I think the best thing that could happen is if they make Hydras biological only. They can nerf something else if they want to like making ravagers armored or something. In my opinion there is no counter to Adept - Phoenix - Adept with upgrades currently. You have to build a critical mass Hydras to deal with Phoenix, but Hydras get slaughtered by upgraded Adepts. Did you test it out the mondragon approach?
That somewhat works. It works better with ling + baneling because of pylon overcharge. I don't like preemptive solutions though, because it is basically an all in and you are left to the mercy of the opponents skill.
With roaches the problem is that you need Lair + Speed upgrade to travel the map and at that time the phoenixes are out and you have nothing to protect the roaches getting picked off.
Pylon overcharge + phoenix bulled back in the defensive line is an auto loss for zerg then when the Protoss realize what Zerg is doing.
Also big roach army are way worse in LOTV because of the huge larvae/eco nerf.
Zergs strength is not the swarmy style in LOTV. Zerg units are a bit stronger with LOTV like Ultralisk and Ravager, but mass Roach A-click like stephano did doesn't work anymore.
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On December 26 2015 00:59 A_needle_jog wrote:[...]make Hydras biological only[...] I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it makes Hydralisks a bit stronger in ZvP. But it completely kills any Mutalisk openings in ZvZ.
Personally, I like to open 3 Roach to block ramp, tech straight to Muta adding couple of Roaches here and there to prevent all-ins, then harass with Mutas while expanding, teching to Hive and getting Banelings to counter inevitable Hydras.
If Banelings can't do damage to Hydralisks anymore, there will be no point in getting Mutas, as they get countered by Hydralisks pretty hard. And Hive/Greater Spire/Brood Lords don't come in quick enough to stop Hydralisk push from killing you.
What could be done is giving Corruptors a bit extra speed to chase the Phoenixes a bit further away - match it with the Liberator speed. Even more, I would love to trade that shitty vomit skill for +1 extra armor or better damage for Corruptors. With that, I wouldn't care for PB nerfs either.
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IMO the problem with phoenix is you're going to have a fundamental design problem anytime you have a counter that is that hard of a counter - 3 phoenixes with some micro will kill 10 mutas or at least chase them off to the point that they are completely impotent
Most counters in the game don't work this way and for a good reason - 3 corruptors will lose to 3 battlecruisers, for example
Corruptor speed and broodlord speed are a couple of long overdue upgrades though that's for sure
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On December 26 2015 02:16 Nazara wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 00:59 A_needle_jog wrote:[...]make Hydras biological only[...] I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, it makes Hydralisks a bit stronger in ZvP. But it completely kills any Mutalisk openings in ZvZ. Personally, I like to open 3 Roach to block ramp, tech straight to Muta adding couple of Roaches here and there to prevent all-ins, then harass with Mutas while expanding, teching to Hive and getting Banelings to counter inevitable Hydras. If Banelings can't do damage to Hydralisks anymore, there will be no point in getting Mutas, as they get countered by Hydralisks pretty hard. And Hive/Greater Spire/Brood Lords don't come in quick enough to stop Hydralisk push from killing you. What could be done is giving Corruptors a bit extra speed to chase the Phoenixes a bit further away - match it with the Liberator speed. Even more, I would love to trade that shitty vomit skill for +1 extra armor or better damage for Corruptors. With that, I wouldn't care for PB nerfs either.
That is interesting. Mass Hydras never happened to me really. I basically use roaches to counter hydras because Hydras are a bad unit in my opinion.
Roach is 75/25 with 145 health
Hydra is 100/50 with 80 health
Having Hydras in your army is nice standing behind roaches, but I don't think I have ever to lost to someone who went straight to hydras
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^
What he means is that hydras shut down mutas but banelings keep hydras in check, so if hydras become biological they stop dying to banelings so easily.
On the other hand, their health is so low that 3 baneling explosions kill them anyway.
But it would be a massive buff for hydras against Terran as hellion/hellbat and hydra against adept.
Buuuuut hydras were never a real problem for Protoss pre-adept anyway, and certainly aren't in a storm/disruptor world either.
Yeah honestly it would be fine because hydra hp is so low. Sorry for the balance discussion derail though
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On December 26 2015 03:09 Merkmerk wrote:
^
What he means is that hydras shut down mutas but banelings keep hydras in check, so if hydras become biological they stop dying to banelings so easily.
On the other hand, their health is so low that 3 baneling explosions kill them anyway.
But it would be a massive buff for hydras against Terran as hellion/hellbat and hydra against adept.
Buuuuut hydras were never a real problem for Protoss pre-adept anyway, and certainly aren't in a storm/disruptor world either.
Yeah honestly it would be fine because hydra hp is so low. Sorry for the balance discussion derail though
Good post I agree yeah. It would only slightly impact ZvT and ZvP. Thats why I offered to nerf something else like ravager.
I love Hydras, I want to play Hydras, but they are so bad.
I think without Lurkers nobody would ever build any hydras ever
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IIRC they tested out some pretty significant hydra buffs back in WoL and HOTS due to their issues.
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2-3 rax reaper seems like an auto loss to me, unless you blindly spine every ZvT. You simply sustain too much damage before your 1st roach is even born, and even then the mines deal with any number of roaches that isn't overwhelming.
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The only solution to 3 rax reaper is to blind open 3 ravager timing every game and hope they aren't going for some kind of banshee timing
Very difficult to recover your econ and get ready for drop spam though
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Actually the best way to counter 2-3 rax reaper is to drone scout. Then you don't have to blindly counter anything as you will see what he's doing and react accordingly. Then you place an overlord by his natural so you can see when the Terran expands.
If you scout that he's making 2-3 rax in his base, try to gas steal. If he prevents it, play normally and as soon as spawning pool finishes throw down a roach warren and you'll be fine.
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The thing is good terrans wall off, and the first roaches still come after reapers (unless you 1-base, in which case you lose to every single other opener by the terran). I really hate these reaper mines, it's simple too much utility too early in the game.
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On December 26 2015 12:50 blade55555 wrote:
Actually the best way to counter 2-3 rax reaper is to drone scout. Then you don't have to blindly counter anything as you will see what he's doing and react accordingly. Then you place an overlord by his natural so you can see when the Terran expands.
If you scout that he's making 2-3 rax in his base, try to gas steal. If he prevents it, play normally and as soon as spawning pool finishes throw down a roach warren and you'll be fine.
This is fact, might as well get used to drone scouting in LOTV, the 12 worker thing benefits Zerg early game economy enough that sending out a drone at 14 after the overlord almost never seems like a bad idea, with how fast everyone can build that early game information is critical.
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What the hell is anyone doing to beat the heavy drop play into Liberator/Bio/Mines? I am completely lost on how to engage into it, it seems like you just have to catch them on creep completely unaware or the mines and Liberators just roll you over.
Don't engage until Ultralisks and 3/3?
Play turtle mode into Broods?
I don't know, lost about 10 in a row against Terrans that I didn't feel were all too much better then me but that army composition is totally infuriating, how the thought of nerfing the counters to Liberators is entering the balance teams mind is terrifying.
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On December 27 2015 05:04 Beelzebub1 wrote:
What the hell is anyone doing to beat the heavy drop play into Liberator/Bio/Mines? I am completely lost on how to engage into it, it seems like you just have to catch them on creep completely unaware or the mines and Liberators just roll you over.
Don't engage until Ultralisks and 3/3?
Play turtle mode into Broods?
I don't know, lost about 10 in a row against Terrans that I didn't feel were all too much better then me but that army composition is totally infuriating, how the thought of nerfing the counters to Liberators is entering the balance teams mind is terrifying.
Corruptor viper broodlord with a FEW ultras and a lot of lings. Infestors are optional if you have the control for it they are good
Plant static defense on your corner bases
Might want to keep a small muta squad alive to help with yolo drops but It's not essential since you hace corruptors and vipers to kill the medivacs
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On December 27 2015 05:29 HellHound wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2015 05:04 Beelzebub1 wrote:
What the hell is anyone doing to beat the heavy drop play into Liberator/Bio/Mines? I am completely lost on how to engage into it, it seems like you just have to catch them on creep completely unaware or the mines and Liberators just roll you over.
Don't engage until Ultralisks and 3/3?
Play turtle mode into Broods?
I don't know, lost about 10 in a row against Terrans that I didn't feel were all too much better then me but that army composition is totally infuriating, how the thought of nerfing the counters to Liberators is entering the balance teams mind is terrifying. Corruptor viper broodlord with a FEW ultras and a lot of lings. Infestors are optional if you have the control for it they are good Plant static defense on your corner bases Might want to keep a small muta squad alive to help with yolo drops but It's not essential since you hace corruptors and vipers to kill the medivacs
So I should follow the standard 4 minute lair? I feel like this is where I'm screwing up, my general plan is to go for the standard hatch/gas/pool and start third at 38 with Roach Warren/lair/4 safety Roaches, and the safety Roaches which have saved my ass vs. early Liberators and uber aggressive hellions seems to just put me on the back foot going into the mid game but I have no clue how to deal with the potential Liberators, almost like I have to blindly repair as early drop play and early liberator aggression look almost identical to me in my scouting (the rax/factory/starport with expansion coming up).
What should my train of thought be for preparing this because they can move around Spores and kill Queens in like 3 shots.
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Ravager combat stats are actually quite poor though - their DPS is low. You need to use them for bile, and the combat ability is just kinda there too - but they haven't been good fighters since beta.
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Bile doesn't feel that strong either. Very easy to dodge. Still has a purpose I suppose.
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Hey all,
I just recently got back into SC and in LotV I've been having some problems with the harass that terran and protoss are able to put on. It's not any single early pressure or harass technique, however, it's the plenty of options that terran and protoss have. So I'd like suggestions and feedback on how to more successfully scout what the specific harassment route is (what time to check and with what; fast overlords, zerglings, overseer, etc.) and a way to defend against the harassment options. Two options that get me real good are when terrans and protoss pull out all the stops. Terran wil start reaper then go liberator, then tank drops and eventually a push I can't hold because he has disrupteed my mining so much. Protoss will start adepts, this is annoying because you have to prepare for anywhere from 1 to like 10 adepts without losing too much economy. Then they will send out an oracle or two before pushing with immortal/adept/oracle or void ray.
EDIT: I meant to mention that all this harass could be dealt with with some form of decent anti-air. But it doesnt seem like zerg has a very viable anti-air early on. The harass does its job before spire or hydra den pop. Spores are stationary, and frankly I don't want to always build spores, and queens just don't seem very strong against the ground units that accompany these attacks.
Thanks to all who help,
glhf 
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EPT
