WCSThe LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 67
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M2
Bulgaria2616 Posts
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Ej_
45426 Posts
Vs Protoss you can send 13 drone to hatch block their natural / scout for tech in main. It's useful va cannon rush. Vs Zerg you can defend everything with just good micro / going pool first (which is better than hatch 1st w/ drone) Vs Terran you should see raxes with 1 of your first 2 overlords, if I see an SCV scout with my OL that isn't getting to my main, I send a drone down to natural to interrupt a bunker. You can also take 1 drone around 17 supply to look around in spots your OL missed, but it's going to just cause delay of BO for minimal chance of scouting anything tl;dr If you're paranoid about getting cheesed, pool first is better vs T and Z. You can 13 drone scout main vs Protoss | ||
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General_Winter
United States171 Posts
(edit: I don't just want to mirror that and also play hydra lurker. If i wanted to play a mirror match that involved both players with siege units that were impossible to attack into I'd be Terran). | ||
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brickrd
United States4674 Posts
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
Can anyone tell me what standard comps are in each of the matchups now? Also does 17/17/17 generally hold up? Also around what supply would one expand third for each of the three matchups? I don't really need any specific builds, I can generally figure things out if I know these three things. | ||
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hatsack
7 Posts
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Railgan
Switzerland1479 Posts
Gasless 12 Pool opener vs Protoss / Zerg Gasless 2 Base Roach Timings (HotS-Style) vs Zerg These are the most viable Gasless Openers. Frankly you want to mine Gas in most Games early to Harrass your Opponent with Lings / defend against Hellions, Adepts and Ling Runbys. | ||
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BelialStarcraft
7 Posts
What drone is optimal to scout with if you want to catch proxy shit, 12 pool etc on time? Drone scouting isn't necessary to counter these builds, and would just set you back economically for the minerals you need. Even if someone does one of these builds, hatch first will counter them with proper decision making. Your 2nd overlord should cross paths at the same time in the middle of the map with their overlord if they are going hatch first. If they don't, then your spider senses should be tingling right away. Make your gas later so you can pool minerals, pool larva for your spawning pool for lings, and bane nest before speed. Your first overlord should watch their natural. If their natural isn't popping the same time as yours, obviously something is up (could also be a pool/hatch with early ling pressure into macro). If it's 13pool/12 bane, no hatch in the natural, you'll see lings running out and no hatch in the natural that isn't even being taken when your overlord comes. Easiest choice is to just queen, spine, banenest, and drone up on 1 base and just have a higher econ than the opponent and expand at a similar time they do as they kill your natural, and you're still ahead. If they go for the jugular into your main, which they should, you will need to use micro, queen blocking the ramp as much as possible until your own banes and a spine come up. When they take their nat is when you are free to do you. If they go for your natural, you simply pull ~8 drones and threaten, but commit, to an attack, until your own lings arrive. You'll be able to save your natural and as you get more comfortable defending early pools, you'll be squeezing in drones. Early pools in ZvZ is more of a skill check and the opponent setting the pace of the game, but with proper reaction and micro, you should come out ahead. Hey guys I'm an old player that played in both HotS and LotV. I was around mid masters in LotV about 3 years ago and the meta then was Hydra Lurker for ZvP, Roach Ravager for ZvT and ZvZ or something like that. I forget exactly what to be completely honest. The builds back then were 17/17/17 I believe. sheesh. I thought those comps were trash even back then. ZvP Hydra Lurker (or really just lurkers) went away in favor of going for Broodlord tech quicker. You'll sometimes see people go hive tech, adaptive talons MASS lurker, but it's not common because skytoss will counter it and then you're behind when you transition into broodlords if you don't kill toss and lurkers don't really transition into broodlord tech well. ZvP is more ling/roach/ravager to hold any sort of early aggression (immortal or twilight), then mutas to counter robo openers (or as a choice) or hydras to counter stargate. Then add banelings and pressure with ravager/bane or hydra/bane as you tech up into broodlord/infestor. Toss will push before then so it's your job to delay the push until broodlords tech is out - nydus, pressure, harass. Swarmhosts can also work too. ZvT is ling/bane (hydras are good against mines, not against tanks. mass queen is viable. just pure ling/bane also can be done but is weak against mines). Then you move toward hive, add ultras, then corruptors to counter liberators, then broodlord/infestor (skip ultras and corruptors if you're comfortable or if the game goes that way). Against mech you go roach/swarmhosts. Nydus is really popular with swarmhosts to abuse mech immobility, hydras sometimes if they get lots of banshees. Delaying for broodlord/infestor. ZvZ is roach ravager into lurkers, then adding hive for vipers to counter lurkers, then it goes into pure hydra/lurker/viper. However personally, I have been going 2 base lair lurker and going for straight hydra/lurker, take my third, and go from there (and adding nydus or droperlords to harass). The composition is just too strong that it beats fast third in my opinion, but that's just a personal theory that I'm testing out on ladder with great success right now (and someone who has always gone fast third). 17/17/17 is still the way to roll. Personally I like to go 17h/17p/17g, I don't really see fast speed as necessary and a lot of the pressures that were popular back in the day aren't as common anymore, but all the pros seem to go gas first (maybe to reactively all-in to a weak wall-in or accidentally lost scout). But, a lot of the pros these days will take 2 drones off gas after speed. Overlord speed is very popular to get right now after the 2nd round of queens are done (it seems most pros make 2 queens, then just make 1 queen, then when she's done, make 2 more or 1 & OL speed). 2 queens after that is very common though. | ||
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BelialStarcraft
7 Posts
I have so many of these games on ladder and they are incredibly frustrating. I win a good number of them but they are always because I mine out my half of the map + 1 base. Literally always an hour long game. I like to go hydra/viper because corruptors get owned by mass hellion floods (maybe a small patrol of corruptors to deal with teleporting BCs). But my main problem is the mid-game and playing a style that can put on pressure that isn't just turtle and resign to a mined out map scenario. I was wondering if ravager/hydra might be good and just pile down the BCs. I was wondering if swarmhosts are a good option to harass. I've been trying that with... limited success. It just sucks because every time I see BCs I just think "great. mined out map 1 hour long game again'. I don't know any other way to really play against it. I literally have games where terran opens with a natural PF and turrets in his main on 2 base. Yes, it means I can take more bases uncontested but... it's really really annoying to have to play such long drawn out frustrating games. | ||
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GoloSC2
537 Posts
On August 07 2019 17:54 BelialStarcraft wrote: How do you guys counter mass BC play? I have so many of these games on ladder and they are incredibly frustrating. I win a good number of them but they are always because I mine out my half of the map + 1 base. Literally always an hour long game. I like to go hydra/viper because corruptors get owned by mass hellion floods (maybe a small patrol of corruptors to deal with teleporting BCs). But my main problem is the mid-game and playing a style that can put on pressure that isn't just turtle and resign to a mined out map scenario. I was wondering if ravager/hydra might be good and just pile down the BCs. I was wondering if swarmhosts are a good option to harass. I've been trying that with... limited success. It just sucks because every time I see BCs I just think "great. mined out map 1 hour long game again'. I don't know any other way to really play against it. I literally have games where terran opens with a natural PF and turrets in his main on 2 base. Yes, it means I can take more bases uncontested but... it's really really annoying to have to play such long drawn out frustrating games. on sc2swarm there's a guide + build for a roach-based allin that is designed to counter bc openings (https://sc2swarm.com/2019/01/21/the-abc-build/). i realize you were more asking for a compostion for the midgame but maybe the build is still interesting for you, will certainly make hour long games less common. | ||
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brickrd
United States4674 Posts
you can also queen ling nydus in the main when you scout BC openers, pros like soo like to do that | ||
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BelialStarcraft
7 Posts
I don't really like corruptors because they're so useless other than fighting BCs. You can't attack, pressure, or harass at all against Terran (they'll put turrets everywhere), they're slow, and cyclones, hellions, etc any sort of late game tech switch makes them useless. you can also queen ling nydus in the main when you scout BC openers, pros like soo like to do that Thanks I'll look that up. | ||
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brickrd
United States4674 Posts
as for hellions it depends what part of the game you're talking about. in the early to midgame any combination of queen/roach/rav/ling is fine to defend against mech hellions. in the lategame there's no reason you can't have a huge amount of spines at every outer base, like 5-10. you should have infinity minerals if terran is turtling on BC, and even if you lose your mineral line you should be able to instantly remake every drone. mech hellion runbys have been part of the matchup since heart of the swarm and nothing has really changed about how to deal with them, you just have to have mass spine and be in position. | ||
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BelialStarcraft
7 Posts
I havent seen any pro games with mass BCs, if you could link any I'd love to watch. I've seen a few openers but never mass BC turtle style that I run into constantly on ladder. Right now I'm just at the point where I leave ZvT if terran opens BCs - not because I don't think I can beat it, but I seriously don't want to play a game where I have to mine out the map and starve the terran and just constantly defend harass to win. I play against terrans constantly who are just going mass tank/widow mine/static with hellion harass and BCs and it's too much to nydus or drop against. They can't stop me from mining out the map but I don't feel like being forced to playing a 1hour game every time against it, it's not fun at all. in the lategame there's no reason you can't have a huge amount of spines at every outer base, like 5-10. Yeah maybe I just need more spines but I will mass spines (defnitely at least 5) and I still will lose my mineral line. Perhaps I need to be microing my drones away, or I need to have more map awareness and have army on the way back. Perhaps part of my problem is being too aggressive with my army posturing and just be defending, defending, defending. But that doesn't change the problem of just only way to win is to mine out the entire map. if you're hitting a midgame timing against someone trying to mass up BCs then it's theoretically possible to win with hydra/viper and abducts, but once terran has upgrades and a huge sky army hydras are absolute trash against BCs and the vipers will do nothing unless there are vikings Vipers can just parastic bomb the vikings, especially with hydra support I don't think viking/BC is a big threat to viper/hydra, or maybe I just haven't ran into it. Either way, hydra/viper has worked for me. The problem I've had with going corruptors is I just get wrecked by hellion runbys or tech switches. I've had terrans just pump out a ton of marines or tanks (it being extreme lategame and all) after I crush their BCs with mass corruptors and I just get wrecked by having so much dead supply against a low tier mobile army. I've never liked infestors because they seem too slow. It's not necessarily the problem of fighting the BCs, is being able to not take too much damage from the harass, and being able to pressure the terran back. Viper with blinding cloud and hydras is the only way I can take out the PFs. BLs are too slow (and useless against BCs), corruptors won't work against turret rings and harass. Just where I'm at. I could post a replay of me winning a game where I struggle with these issues and win but only after mining out the entire map. The only thing I think I'm doing wrong right now is maybe need to make a corruptor hit squad to deal with BC harass. | ||
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BelialStarcraft
7 Posts
Then they built up hellion/cyclone (another comp I don't really know what to do against but if they do that into mech I can usualyl swarmhost until broodlord) which prevented my corruptors from doing anything like harassing or camping their starports. I tried to be really active with my corruptors but was losing too much. Maybe that game was more a problem with the cyclone/hellion and should've had bane/hydra and eventually add infestors (or vipers?). I can't really see a way to play against this without mining everything out. I have to hold with corruptors and have to play pretty passively against mass static defense and harass. I also tried a game with ling/queen/nydus but terran was expecting it and that got shut pretty hard. | ||
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BelialStarcraft
7 Posts
Get spire right away to defend, hold. Add a good number of corruptors, put pressure, and try to force a teleport. double nydus. Maybe even triple, why not, his army is small so he won't have enough to stop them all. Then ravager/queen flood his main. Even if he holds his production should be ruined. I think it only works with multiple nydus, a single nydus will be expected and he'll stop it. But if you get mass queen/ravager inside his main, you can bile down his BCs, the queens and corruptors will mess them up, the ravagers and lings should make short work of his production. sc2 On another note, I've been having a blast going ling/bane/ultra in ZvP. Been having a ton of success with it on ladder masters. Really good on thunderbird because with the map control you just take the gold gases. | ||
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toolsa
3 Posts
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