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The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 67

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M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4115 Posts
July 13 2019 16:17 GMT
#1321
What drone is optimal to scout with if you want to catch proxy shit, 12 pool etc on time?
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-14 06:24:47
July 14 2019 06:23 GMT
#1322
Nobody drone scouts (esp in ZvZ) so there's no optimal way.
Vs Protoss you can send 13 drone to hatch block their natural / scout for tech in main. It's useful va cannon rush.
Vs Zerg you can defend everything with just good micro / going pool first (which is better than hatch 1st w/ drone)
Vs Terran you should see raxes with 1 of your first 2 overlords, if I see an SCV scout with my OL that isn't getting to my main, I send a drone down to natural to interrupt a bunker. You can also take 1 drone around 17 supply to look around in spots your OL missed, but it's going to just cause delay of BO for minimal chance of scouting anything

tl;dr
If you're paranoid about getting cheesed, pool first is better vs T and Z. You can 13 drone scout main vs Protoss
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
General_Winter
Profile Joined February 2011
United States719 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-07-18 22:50:04
July 18 2019 21:45 GMT
#1323
In ZvZ, after the roach ravager vs roach ravager phase of the game I usually transition to roach hydra. If the opponent also transitions to roach hydra but rushes to fast lurkers and then transitions to hydra lurker, what should I try to play in order to beat that?

(edit: I don't just want to mirror that and also play hydra lurker. If i wanted to play a mirror match that involved both players with siege units that were impossible to attack into I'd be Terran).
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
July 19 2019 02:05 GMT
#1324
hive tech zvz is actually a pretty awesome matchup where there are a lot of viable ways to play, it's mostly about knowing how to control your units and good positioning. i think vipers are a pretty normal transition. brood lords and ultras can both work but against a defensive player who's building a bank you can get hardcountered or walk into a bad position and lose everything
TL+ Member
MoosyDoosy
Profile Joined November 2014
United States4519 Posts
July 20 2019 15:22 GMT
#1325
Hey guys I'm an old player that played in both HotS and LotV. I was around mid masters in LotV about 3 years ago and the meta then was Hydra Lurker for ZvP, Roach Ravager for ZvT and ZvZ or something like that. I forget exactly what to be completely honest. The builds back then were 17/17/17 I believe.

Can anyone tell me what standard comps are in each of the matchups now? Also does 17/17/17 generally hold up? Also around what supply would one expand third for each of the three matchups? I don't really need any specific builds, I can generally figure things out if I know these three things.
"Just a second too late rsoultin :D" - My 4k Guardian post
hatsack
Profile Joined June 2015
7 Posts
July 21 2019 04:03 GMT
#1326
Are gasless builds viable in any matchup?
Railgan
Profile Joined August 2010
Switzerland1507 Posts
July 31 2019 06:33 GMT
#1327
Gasless ZvT with a Pool first (fast Queens vs Reaper to skip Ling Defense).
Gasless 12 Pool opener vs Protoss / Zerg
Gasless 2 Base Roach Timings (HotS-Style) vs Zerg

These are the most viable Gasless Openers. Frankly you want to mine Gas in most Games early to Harrass your Opponent with Lings / defend against Hellions, Adepts and Ling Runbys.
Grandmaster Zerg from Switzerland!!! www.twitch.tv/railgan // www.twitter.com/railgansc // www.youtube.com/c/railgansc
BelialStarcraft
Profile Joined August 2019
9 Posts
August 05 2019 22:19 GMT
#1328
What drone is optimal to scout with if you want to catch proxy shit, 12 pool etc on time?


Drone scouting isn't necessary to counter these builds, and would just set you back economically for the minerals you need. Even if someone does one of these builds, hatch first will counter them with proper decision making.

Your 2nd overlord should cross paths at the same time in the middle of the map with their overlord if they are going hatch first. If they don't, then your spider senses should be tingling right away. Make your gas later so you can pool minerals, pool larva for your spawning pool for lings, and bane nest before speed.

Your first overlord should watch their natural. If their natural isn't popping the same time as yours, obviously something is up (could also be a pool/hatch with early ling pressure into macro).

If it's 13pool/12 bane, no hatch in the natural, you'll see lings running out and no hatch in the natural that isn't even being taken when your overlord comes.

Easiest choice is to just queen, spine, banenest, and drone up on 1 base and just have a higher econ than the opponent and expand at a similar time they do as they kill your natural, and you're still ahead. If they go for the jugular into your main, which they should, you will need to use micro, queen blocking the ramp as much as possible until your own banes and a spine come up.

When they take their nat is when you are free to do you. If they go for your natural, you simply pull ~8 drones and threaten, but commit, to an attack, until your own lings arrive. You'll be able to save your natural and as you get more comfortable defending early pools, you'll be squeezing in drones.

Early pools in ZvZ is more of a skill check and the opponent setting the pace of the game, but with proper reaction and micro, you should come out ahead.

Hey guys I'm an old player that played in both HotS and LotV. I was around mid masters in LotV about 3 years ago and the meta then was Hydra Lurker for ZvP, Roach Ravager for ZvT and ZvZ or something like that. I forget exactly what to be completely honest. The builds back then were 17/17/17 I believe.


sheesh. I thought those comps were trash even back then.

ZvP Hydra Lurker (or really just lurkers) went away in favor of going for Broodlord tech quicker. You'll sometimes see people go hive tech, adaptive talons MASS lurker, but it's not common because skytoss will counter it and then you're behind when you transition into broodlords if you don't kill toss and lurkers don't really transition into broodlord tech well.

ZvP is more ling/roach/ravager to hold any sort of early aggression (immortal or twilight), then mutas to counter robo openers (or as a choice) or hydras to counter stargate. Then add banelings and pressure with ravager/bane or hydra/bane as you tech up into broodlord/infestor. Toss will push before then so it's your job to delay the push until broodlords tech is out - nydus, pressure, harass. Swarmhosts can also work too.

ZvT is ling/bane (hydras are good against mines, not against tanks. mass queen is viable. just pure ling/bane also can be done but is weak against mines). Then you move toward hive, add ultras, then corruptors to counter liberators, then broodlord/infestor (skip ultras and corruptors if you're comfortable or if the game goes that way).

Against mech you go roach/swarmhosts. Nydus is really popular with swarmhosts to abuse mech immobility, hydras sometimes if they get lots of banshees. Delaying for broodlord/infestor.

ZvZ is roach ravager into lurkers, then adding hive for vipers to counter lurkers, then it goes into pure hydra/lurker/viper. However personally, I have been going 2 base lair lurker and going for straight hydra/lurker, take my third, and go from there (and adding nydus or droperlords to harass). The composition is just too strong that it beats fast third in my opinion, but that's just a personal theory that I'm testing out on ladder with great success right now (and someone who has always gone fast third).

17/17/17 is still the way to roll. Personally I like to go 17h/17p/17g, I don't really see fast speed as necessary and a lot of the pressures that were popular back in the day aren't as common anymore, but all the pros seem to go gas first (maybe to reactively all-in to a weak wall-in or accidentally lost scout). But, a lot of the pros these days will take 2 drones off gas after speed.

Overlord speed is very popular to get right now after the 2nd round of queens are done (it seems most pros make 2 queens, then just make 1 queen, then when she's done, make 2 more or 1 & OL speed). 2 queens after that is very common though.
BelialStarcraft
Profile Joined August 2019
9 Posts
August 07 2019 08:54 GMT
#1329
How do you guys counter mass BC play?

I have so many of these games on ladder and they are incredibly frustrating. I win a good number of them but they are always because I mine out my half of the map + 1 base. Literally always an hour long game.

I like to go hydra/viper because corruptors get owned by mass hellion floods (maybe a small patrol of corruptors to deal with teleporting BCs).

But my main problem is the mid-game and playing a style that can put on pressure that isn't just turtle and resign to a mined out map scenario. I was wondering if ravager/hydra might be good and just pile down the BCs. I was wondering if swarmhosts are a good option to harass. I've been trying that with... limited success.

It just sucks because every time I see BCs I just think "great. mined out map 1 hour long game again'. I don't know any other way to really play against it.

I literally have games where terran opens with a natural PF and turrets in his main on 2 base. Yes, it means I can take more bases uncontested but... it's really really annoying to have to play such long drawn out frustrating games.
GoloSC2
Profile Joined August 2014
710 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-07 23:48:44
August 07 2019 23:48 GMT
#1330
On August 07 2019 17:54 BelialStarcraft wrote:
How do you guys counter mass BC play?

I have so many of these games on ladder and they are incredibly frustrating. I win a good number of them but they are always because I mine out my half of the map + 1 base. Literally always an hour long game.

I like to go hydra/viper because corruptors get owned by mass hellion floods (maybe a small patrol of corruptors to deal with teleporting BCs).

But my main problem is the mid-game and playing a style that can put on pressure that isn't just turtle and resign to a mined out map scenario. I was wondering if ravager/hydra might be good and just pile down the BCs. I was wondering if swarmhosts are a good option to harass. I've been trying that with... limited success.

It just sucks because every time I see BCs I just think "great. mined out map 1 hour long game again'. I don't know any other way to really play against it.

I literally have games where terran opens with a natural PF and turrets in his main on 2 base. Yes, it means I can take more bases uncontested but... it's really really annoying to have to play such long drawn out frustrating games.


on sc2swarm there's a guide + build for a roach-based allin that is designed to counter bc openings (https://sc2swarm.com/2019/01/21/the-abc-build/). i realize you were more asking for a compostion for the midgame but maybe the build is still interesting for you, will certainly make hour long games less common.
"Code S > IEM > Super Tournament > Homestory Cup > Blizzcon/WESG > GSL vs The World > Invitational tournaments in China with Koreans > WCS events" - Rodya
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-08 04:56:43
August 08 2019 04:55 GMT
#1331
counter to BC is mass infestor corruptor, unsure if it will still work after infestor nerf but that's what we have. if you're making just corruptors and nothing else against a player with BC and mass hellion then something is wrong with your macro, you should still have queens, spines, etc against hellions, even roaches are ok to defend in the early to midgame. against smaller numbers of BC you really don't need to overmake corruptors because you can easily micro and transfuse them against slow DPS of BCs

you can also queen ling nydus in the main when you scout BC openers, pros like soo like to do that
TL+ Member
BelialStarcraft
Profile Joined August 2019
9 Posts
August 08 2019 07:46 GMT
#1332
Queens and spines just don't do enough damage against hellions. My entire mineral line will be erased before spines will work through hellions. I'm down to use something other than hydras but spines alone don't work, even mass spines. Obviously spines are necessary, but my point is spines alone aren't enough.

I don't really like corruptors because they're so useless other than fighting BCs. You can't attack, pressure, or harass at all against Terran (they'll put turrets everywhere), they're slow, and cyclones, hellions, etc any sort of late game tech switch makes them useless.

you can also queen ling nydus in the main when you scout BC openers, pros like soo like to do that


Thanks I'll look that up.
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-09 04:00:28
August 09 2019 03:57 GMT
#1333
you asked about mass BC, so i assumed you meant a lategame army with nothing but BC + maybe hellions as mineral dump, and generally you go infestor/corruptor against that. mass infestor can work too, i have seen pros do both. neural/mass infested terran/focus fire corruptors, and sometimes fungal to prevent jumps. but the corruptors are good for wiping BCs if the fight is close and infestors run out of energy. if you're hitting a midgame timing against someone trying to mass up BCs then it's theoretically possible to win with hydra/viper and abducts, but once terran has upgrades and a huge sky army hydras are absolute trash against BCs and the vipers will do nothing unless there are vikings. if he transitions back into ground for some reason you can morph brood lords, and if he makes more BC you already have anti air. you should also have a bank at this point to remake whatever you need, as you're never going to trade against BCs with max supply, you will lose corruptors. also, hydras can be roasted into oblivion by blue flame hellions if you're in a bad position for two seconds.

as for hellions it depends what part of the game you're talking about. in the early to midgame any combination of queen/roach/rav/ling is fine to defend against mech hellions. in the lategame there's no reason you can't have a huge amount of spines at every outer base, like 5-10. you should have infinity minerals if terran is turtling on BC, and even if you lose your mineral line you should be able to instantly remake every drone. mech hellion runbys have been part of the matchup since heart of the swarm and nothing has really changed about how to deal with them, you just have to have mass spine and be in position.
TL+ Member
BelialStarcraft
Profile Joined August 2019
9 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-08-09 07:30:06
August 09 2019 07:26 GMT
#1334
Broodlords are useless, he'll just run circles around them.

I havent seen any pro games with mass BCs, if you could link any I'd love to watch. I've seen a few openers but never mass BC turtle style that I run into constantly on ladder. Right now I'm just at the point where I leave ZvT if terran opens BCs - not because I don't think I can beat it, but I seriously don't want to play a game where I have to mine out the map and starve the terran and just constantly defend harass to win. I play against terrans constantly who are just going mass tank/widow mine/static with hellion harass and BCs and it's too much to nydus or drop against. They can't stop me from mining out the map but I don't feel like being forced to playing a 1hour game every time against it, it's not fun at all.

in the lategame there's no reason you can't have a huge amount of spines at every outer base, like 5-10.


Yeah maybe I just need more spines but I will mass spines (defnitely at least 5) and I still will lose my mineral line. Perhaps I need to be microing my drones away, or I need to have more map awareness and have army on the way back. Perhaps part of my problem is being too aggressive with my army posturing and just be defending, defending, defending. But that doesn't change the problem of just only way to win is to mine out the entire map.

if you're hitting a midgame timing against someone trying to mass up BCs then it's theoretically possible to win with hydra/viper and abducts, but once terran has upgrades and a huge sky army hydras are absolute trash against BCs and the vipers will do nothing unless there are vikings


Vipers can just parastic bomb the vikings, especially with hydra support I don't think viking/BC is a big threat to viper/hydra, or maybe I just haven't ran into it. Either way, hydra/viper has worked for me.

The problem I've had with going corruptors is I just get wrecked by hellion runbys or tech switches. I've had terrans just pump out a ton of marines or tanks (it being extreme lategame and all) after I crush their BCs with mass corruptors and I just get wrecked by having so much dead supply against a low tier mobile army.

I've never liked infestors because they seem too slow. It's not necessarily the problem of fighting the BCs, is being able to not take too much damage from the harass, and being able to pressure the terran back. Viper with blinding cloud and hydras is the only way I can take out the PFs. BLs are too slow (and useless against BCs), corruptors won't work against turret rings and harass.

Just where I'm at. I could post a replay of me winning a game where I struggle with these issues and win but only after mining out the entire map. The only thing I think I'm doing wrong right now is maybe need to make a corruptor hit squad to deal with BC harass.
BelialStarcraft
Profile Joined August 2019
9 Posts
August 11 2019 01:02 GMT
#1335
Tried doing the corruptor thing - made spire right away. It held pretty well, I was able to take like 5 bases super fast and hit 90 some drones unchallenged. And they're making BCs so they don't have anything else. I did some pressure and denied the third for a second but then I just could trade ravager/Corruptor vs BC and eventually they were able to take their third.

Then they built up hellion/cyclone (another comp I don't really know what to do against but if they do that into mech I can usualyl swarmhost until broodlord) which prevented my corruptors from doing anything like harassing or camping their starports. I tried to be really active with my corruptors but was losing too much. Maybe that game was more a problem with the cyclone/hellion and should've had bane/hydra and eventually add infestors (or vipers?).

I can't really see a way to play against this without mining everything out. I have to hold with corruptors and have to play pretty passively against mass static defense and harass. I also tried a game with ling/queen/nydus but terran was expecting it and that got shut pretty hard.
BelialStarcraft
Profile Joined August 2019
9 Posts
August 11 2019 18:29 GMT
#1336
Okay this is what I've got to do against the BC style I've been struggling against:

Get spire right away to defend, hold. Add a good number of corruptors, put pressure, and try to force a teleport.

double nydus. Maybe even triple, why not, his army is small so he won't have enough to stop them all.

Then ravager/queen flood his main. Even if he holds his production should be ruined. I think it only works with multiple nydus, a single nydus will be expected and he'll stop it. But if you get mass queen/ravager inside his main, you can bile down his BCs, the queens and corruptors will mess them up, the ravagers and lings should make short work of his production. sc2

On another note, I've been having a blast going ling/bane/ultra in ZvP. Been having a ton of success with it on ladder masters. Really good on thunderbird because with the map control you just take the gold gases.
toolsa
Profile Joined August 2019
3 Posts
August 12 2019 00:09 GMT
#1337
--- Nuked ---
Hydralich
Profile Joined September 2018
16 Posts
September 13 2019 20:15 GMT
#1338
https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/11714298
Here is a 1 base terran rush. I've faced 3 terran rushes similar to this and lost. What could I do against tank + liberator ?
bulya
Profile Joined February 2016
Israel386 Posts
September 14 2019 12:38 GMT
#1339
A 1 base Terran will attack you sooner or later. It means you don't want to tech. The +1 +1 was one of the mistakes, hydras in general was another mistake.

Queens are very good generic defensive units, and if you mine just a single gas you should be able to produce them, tech slowly, and have enough banes so bio or hellbats can't simply jump on your queens.

Vs a 1 base Terran ovie speed seems quite of a waste as well. I guess its part of your generic build, but once you scout the Terran is one basing you must go for exceptions in your build. The build usually fits well vs the most usual build of your opponent, but any early changes mean early adjustments must be made.

In general, vs a 1 base Terran you want to get around 30 drones (you had less then that) a single gas, and invest into queens and lings. Ling speed and a bane nest later, and get some banes by the time there can be stim / hellbats.which is around 5 minutes.

Another approach is getting ravagers, and rely on ravager ling. A lib or a tank won't do anything to such an army as you can bile it down and a 1 base Terran won't have many of those. In such a case a second gas is in need, and you can be exposed to a 1 base BC, which is actually a meme build.
But whatever you choose, more drones, less tech, and way more army instead of the tech. 1 base Terran means, get around 30 drones, not upgrades, if you get a lair then just for overseers vs Banshees and bane speed. No other tech is needed vs a 1 base Terran. Queens, lings and banes hold it all, so no need for a second gas, and if you go for a second gas then its the ravager approach rather then teching.
Hydralich
Profile Joined September 2018
16 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-09-14 21:29:49
September 14 2019 21:24 GMT
#1340
Hey thanks a lot for the answers I've tried them and saw that if I counter the first attack terran decides to do something different like dropping marines&marauders to your main base or go firebat marine and tank drop they give enough damage to cripple your economy and outnumber you (which makes impossiable to attack his base) then he takes the natural exp. I think somehow you must stop his exp (which is impossiable with a crippled economy) and before that there must be a solution against air medivac (hit & run drops)
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