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brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-02-18 22:11:38
February 18 2019 22:00 GMT
#1281
On February 19 2019 05:00 General_Winter wrote:
Getting back into the game after about 5+ years away. I just lost a game vs Terran (replay here https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/9835686) where I tried to roach timing them, didn’t see a natural, was confused and fumbled a bit, then decided to continue with the timing and died to hellions killing all my drones before I could make any roaches.

The game actually technically continues for about 5 minutes after he kills all my drones, and I do eventually make some roaches, try to attack and get crushed since the timing is late and he already has tanks and widow mines. But I think it was really over after that first hellion attack.

Q1: would my overlord at 2:40 have seen the CC if it was there? Or would I need to move it further forward and then back up?

Q2: If I saw, how should I have reacted when I didn’t see a natural base?

My thought is make a roach warren immediately to partially wall the ramp, and then start an additional queen and build the third hatch in my natural to make a wall in with my roach warren. Maybe throw down a spine also. My worry about this plan is that it might help with hellions or marines, but doesn’t do anything vs banshees or other air pressure.

At 3:11 my lings check his natural and confirm no CC.

Q3: At this point I know for sure he is doing some kind of 1 base aggression before expanding. How should I react?

It's too late to build my third hatch in the natural, but I could still build a roach warren asap. What I did was start a spore in my base and start more queens. Maybe I should have started some spines? I didn’t want to overreact though.

A bit later at 3:40ish some hellions kill my scouting lings. I don’t see this because may attention wasn’t on the lings.

Q4: When the hellions show up at my base at 4:03 was I just dead, or could i have reacted or microed better to save my drones?

I tried to use queens to block ramp and chase them away, but the ramp wasn’t creeped so they were slow going between main and natural, and when I tried to use the queens blocking my ramp to help vs the hellions, the hellions just rolled into my main.


One immediate change I’ve made to my play was just banning the map. Seems too wide and hard to protect natural from hellions.

Q5: what are good maps to ban as zerg?

Q6: Any other suggestions? Note I know having better macro and crisper timings helps with everything and I’m working on those, but I can’t immediately chose to just have them be better, so I’m looking for changes I can implement immediately as I try to improve those things gradually.

Thanks everyone!

hey i'm top dia not GM but i think i can help you out. i'll try to answer your questions in order

1) i'm pretty sure your vision was in range, but next time just fly closer. you're probably too worried about marine snipes. you need to get information otherwise there's no point in sending the overlord in the first place.

2) after you see no CC you should be floating just far enough to see what buildings and addons are on the way, partly because it's possible terran is just making a high ground CC, which is an uncommon but conservative way to play. you want to keep the overlord alive, but it's not the end of the world if it dies. in this case you would have seen tech lab barracks and double factory...

3) so the reactor and lack of addon on the 2nd factory indicates he is going for mass hellion, and the tech lab on the barracks indicates stim. first thing you should realize is that this is a ridiculously unusual and aggressive cheese. 1 base mass hellion is weird on its own, but following up with stim means you already know 100% this guy wants to kill you right away rather than harassing and transitioning. roaches are fine if that's how you prefer to play - they make you safer in case of hellbats, but the gas cost slows your tech if the game doesn't end and you have to transition. queen/ling should be fine if your micro isn't horrible. obviously the spore was a complete waste, but more concerning to me is your drone split, which i'll go into on point 4...

4) i'm not sure why you think you need to have half of your drones at the natural that early. if they're all in the main then they get to mine and the hellions are easily blocked at the ramp. instead you have nine drones vulnerable for absolutely no reason. i assume you're going for mathematical efficiency or something, but it was actually really bad for you. to be honest as soon as you saw the hellions leaving his base you should have pulled them into the main, but you also shouldn't have sent them to the natural in the first place unless you were doing some kind of full NA mindgame to trick him about your drone count. anyway, considering the drones were in the natural, you could have microed a little bit more, but the far better move in this case would have been just mineral walking them into the main

5) i'm not a big map veto guy, so i couldn't tell you. i'll give you the answer you don't want to hear though, which is that no problem you can have with a map at your level can't be fixed with macro. no matter how badly you want maps to matter, they just don't until you're better (one of the reasons i don't veto often is because this applies at my level too). so until you rank up a bit you could say it's best to ban whichever maps make you uncomfortable and make you enjoy the game less

6) not really much to say in terms of general suggestions, but i would add that although you SHOULD have been dead after the first attack, your opponent's macro was unbelievably bad, and you were able to get back to a semi-decent drone count while he stayed on 1 base, so actually you did have a chance to win. you hurt yourself a bit before the blue flame hellion attack by having too few roaches/queens and generally late reactions/poor micro, but even still he didn't really do that much damage with it anyway

even as you did your roach counterattack you had a chance to handle your units much better and continue your transition. you just kind of amoved into his natural and then tried to pull back too late. send one ling forward to check if he has tanks by triggering their long range attack, and when you realize he does have a tank you need to either go into a ravager allin, which would have required high ground vision, or simply contain/back off. to be honest if you did have high ground vision a ravager allin would have been a good option for you because you had an insane gas bank you were never going to spend

finally i would point out that you failed to send out a second overlord and had no followup scout, so if he had gone into something like banshees you would have been pretty fucked. your lair was so late that you were forced into a bad allin, you were blind the entire game other than watching hellions come out of his base. obviously scouting actively comes with improving at the game, but in a game like that one you want to try to get a scout on his starport and 3rd CC timings, although in this case his macro was so bad that the information might have been bad too. honestly at your level i would say just get a lair so you can make an overseer, scout better, and transition into tech if/when possible. the cost of the lair isn't really a big deal compared to the macro mistakes you both make

so yeah, there are a lot of things you could have improved about your game, but the good news is it was more winnable than you think it was
TL+ Member
General_Winter
Profile Joined February 2011
United States719 Posts
February 19 2019 13:12 GMT
#1282
Thanks very much for the help.

So my key take aways are:
Scouting: I’m too afraid of losing my overlord, I should move it far enough forward that I’m sure about what I’m seeing. Send another overlord later to be sure.
React more to crazy aggressive all in when I see it.

Macro: The way I split my drones to have an even number at both bases leads to slightly higher mining per minute than having them all at main, but as a trade off its not worth the loss in safety of having drones at the vulnerable natural instead of the main.
Tech to lair sooner / behind roach attack rather than after it.

Attacks / micro: Run lings in to check for tanks

Defense: Just block main ramp and have drones in main. If do have lings at natural, mineral walk to main.
Aocowns
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway6070 Posts
March 04 2019 10:12 GMT
#1283
what do people do to ward off cannon rushes these days? do i keep my second ovie at nat to see pylons or do i just pray he doesnt do it? hbe stole my gas so i couldnt do roach ravager, so i just left lmao
I'm a salt-lord and hater of mech and ForGG, don't take me seriously, it's just my salt-humour speaking i swear. |KadaverBB best TL gaoler| |~IdrA's #1 fan~| SetGuitarsToKill and Duckk are my martyr heroes |
ArtyK
Profile Joined June 2011
France3143 Posts
March 04 2019 11:28 GMT
#1284
On March 04 2019 19:12 Aocowns wrote:
what do people do to ward off cannon rushes these days? do i keep my second ovie at nat to see pylons or do i just pray he doesnt do it? hbe stole my gas so i couldnt do roach ravager, so i just left lmao


:O

Yeah keep the 2nd ovi above the natural for bit, then once it's obvious they're not rushing there, check the area front of the natural for proxy gates/batteries contain. If it's all clear you can then send it wherever you would usually.

Getting your gas stolen vs cannon rush is most likely auto-loss :D

The hard part about defending is that there's many different versions (regular cannon rush with expand, 1 base fast stalker batteries in your main, contain with immortal batteries...)
Ain't nobody got time for this so I generally attempt the pro response vs one base : cancel natural and use that drone to proxy hatch, while massing queens off of your main, and ravagers to bile down the cannons.
Sup dood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KiWiKaKi | SLush | uThermal | PtitDrogo | SortOf | Clem ~ "I told my mom she should vote for me in Nation Wars, she said 'I dunno, I kinda want Finland to win'" – Luolis ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_NScWV9h8k#t=1h01m
TL+ Member
sertman
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States540 Posts
March 06 2019 01:18 GMT
#1285
Simple question - how many drones should I saturate my 4th base with?
ArtyK
Profile Joined June 2011
France3143 Posts
March 06 2019 12:04 GMT
#1286
On March 06 2019 10:18 sertman wrote:
Simple question - how many drones should I saturate my 4th base with?


Assuming you aren't getting allined, 16/16.
Your main starts running out of minerals around 8 minutes so it's a good timing to transfer 8 drones from main to 4th. So 4 bases with 8/16/16/16 = 56 drones on minerals, and at least 5 saturated gases = 15 drones.
That's 71 drones total, which is basically the minimum recommended for an ideal zerg lategame economy.
Sup dood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KiWiKaKi | SLush | uThermal | PtitDrogo | SortOf | Clem ~ "I told my mom she should vote for me in Nation Wars, she said 'I dunno, I kinda want Finland to win'" – Luolis ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_NScWV9h8k#t=1h01m
TL+ Member
Aocowns
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway6070 Posts
March 12 2019 03:38 GMT
#1287
how many drones and gasses should i have vs 2 base immortal warp prism gateway all in? do i also hold off on roach speed and +1 or? cus fuck this
I'm a salt-lord and hater of mech and ForGG, don't take me seriously, it's just my salt-humour speaking i swear. |KadaverBB best TL gaoler| |~IdrA's #1 fan~| SetGuitarsToKill and Duckk are my martyr heroes |
therealkillemall
Profile Joined December 2013
Spain30 Posts
March 14 2019 21:15 GMT
#1288
Hi all.

I've been having trouble recently with one protoss composition: voidray-high templar with some chargelots, archons and carrier transition after. There is this one protoss I play with in ladder that always do the same thing and always wins me. I'm so frutstrated, I don't know what composition aim for. He also fortifies his expansions withs lots of cannons and shield batteries.

Thx for your help.
TrashPanda
Profile Joined July 2018
69 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-03-15 12:38:51
March 15 2019 12:35 GMT
#1289
On March 15 2019 06:15 therealkillemall wrote:
Hi all.

I've been having trouble recently with one protoss composition: voidray-high templar with some chargelots, archons and carrier transition after. There is this one protoss I play with in ladder that always do the same thing and always wins me. I'm so frutstrated, I don't know what composition aim for. He also fortifies his expansions withs lots of cannons and shield batteries.

Thx for your help.

Vods would help.
I would suggest trying to rush him/allin him before he gets to his comp
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-03-15 23:22:16
March 15 2019 23:04 GMT
#1290
On March 15 2019 06:15 therealkillemall wrote:
Hi all.

I've been having trouble recently with one protoss composition: voidray-high templar with some chargelots, archons and carrier transition after. There is this one protoss I play with in ladder that always do the same thing and always wins me. I'm so frutstrated, I don't know what composition aim for. He also fortifies his expansions withs lots of cannons and shield batteries.

Thx for your help.

attack multiple locations, use drops or nydus. void ray/templar can only defend one base because all his money is going to tech and cannons/batteries. or just do a huge hydra/bane allin and try to micro around storms.

or, if you think you can play zerg lategame, you can skip units, double/triple expand with mass drones and start making spore crawlers everywhere while teching up. to play this style you need huge walls of spore crawlers and casters like vipers or infestors backed by mass corruptor/hydra. obviously if he does any warp prism harassment or timing attacks you will need units to defend, but you make it sound like he's just never leaving his base
TL+ Member
Tempest
Profile Joined October 2015
United States147 Posts
March 18 2019 19:29 GMT
#1291
Hey frenly zergybois, not really a help me play zerg well kind of question, but:

Im a protoss player, 2 main PvZ builds im doing right now are HT archon drop and double stargate phoenix.

I was hoping you frenly buggos wouldn't mind betrying your zergy brethren and letting me know which of the two you guys have the more trouble dealing with. I have pretty good success with both, but double stargate phx is harder for me to do, and I was hoping for some insight on whether you think the investment on a harder playstyle is worth it, or whether you think it will be similar results, etc.
Quick, think of some pithy cliche and toss it here
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
March 21 2019 21:39 GMT
#1292
On March 12 2019 12:38 Aocowns wrote:
how many drones and gasses should i have vs 2 base immortal warp prism gateway all in? do i also hold off on roach speed and +1 or? cus fuck this

mmr? when do they generally hit you?
i'd say around 50-55 to be safe, depending on the map and the amount of early game harassment.
gas: 2-3 work fine for me, depending on when the timing hits (+1 or not, etc.). being on pure roach sucks though. ideal composition is hydra/ling, maybe some banes. and get queens. queens are good.
you also need some decent creep spread to set up the engagement.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
swecon1
Profile Joined April 2019
1 Post
April 14 2019 05:06 GMT
#1293
Just got back from a 9 month break.Completly new map pool for me. Which maps are the insta vetos as Zerg? Which maps do you veto and why?
bulya
Profile Joined February 2016
Israel386 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-14 19:40:23
April 14 2019 19:39 GMT
#1294
Personally I don't like the super late game in any match-up, so I veto Year Zero, and thats it. Though my rule of thumb is vetoing no more then 1 map each season, as I play clan wars and participate in tournaments, so I can't ignore 3 maps.

In general, New Repugnancy is a hard map for ZvT, and it one of the better maps for cannon rushes, so perhaps you'd like to veto it as well. I don't find it that hard to play though.

There are the small maps like Kairos Junction. And if you like to be greedy you can veto this one and may be even Cyber Forest.

Kings Cove is another map that can drag games to the late game, and has some strong pushes available for Terran and Protoss due to the lack of open spaces in the middle, but again zerg is quite strong in the late game so veto it only if you don't like the late game.

In short, there are no instant vetoes among those maps, but some maps are played differently then the others. So its also about your style of playing.
vik7
Profile Joined May 2009
United States227 Posts
April 18 2019 03:28 GMT
#1295
playing again after a year, they increased +3 armor cost? and terran feels really strong vs my ling bane muta
what are your guys experience in zvt
NA player, go KT Flash, ST Life( ;( ) , IMMvp, EGJD, CMStorm Polt, SKT Rain, KT Zest, Bisu, RootherO, Stats and teamliqiud
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4116 Posts
May 06 2019 21:09 GMT
#1296
can anyone suggests good english speaking zerg streamers? for a new person to learn? I am not completely new though, so any GM streamer who speaks during the games will be fine. Thanks in advance
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
ArtyK
Profile Joined June 2011
France3143 Posts
May 06 2019 21:30 GMT
#1297
On May 07 2019 06:09 M2 wrote:
can anyone suggests good english speaking zerg streamers? for a new person to learn? I am not completely new though, so any GM streamer who speaks during the games will be fine. Thanks in advance


Neuro.
Sup dood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KiWiKaKi | SLush | uThermal | PtitDrogo | SortOf | Clem ~ "I told my mom she should vote for me in Nation Wars, she said 'I dunno, I kinda want Finland to win'" – Luolis ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_NScWV9h8k#t=1h01m
TL+ Member
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4116 Posts
May 07 2019 04:41 GMT
#1298
How does the injection exactly works? What do the blue and the grey bar show and when do I need to inject again to be optimal?
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
bulya
Profile Joined February 2016
Israel386 Posts
May 07 2019 05:38 GMT
#1299
In general, when you inject a hatchery 29 seconds later 3 more larva will be added to those at the hatchery (the hatchery becomes a bit green, and when the larva falls it goes back to its normal state). This is important as everything you make apart of queens comes out of larva (any unit, any building). It may not seem this way, but even buildings are starting as larva as you have to make a drone first and then morph the drone into the building.
This is why you should have as many larva as you can.

The same hatch can't be on 2 or more injection cycles at the same time. In other words, if you injected a hatchery then injecting that hatchery again won't give you additional 3 larva in 29 seconds. But injecting a hatchery that is already injected will queue another injection round just right when the 3 larva of the first injection will be ready. So injecting an already injected hatchery isn't that bad. Especially if the game goes long and you don't have the time to do injects during the battle you can inject the hatcheries multiple times so that more larva will spawn during the battle.

If you want to be optimal then simply inject the hatchery as the 3 larva "falls" from the top of the hatchery to its bottom and the hatchery is no longer green (unless it was queued to be injected again). But this is only critical at the first minutes of the game, as later on you don't want to spend too much attention doing that. There are other important tasks like controling your amry, deciding if you want to drone or make army, and deciding what units should you make.

What you'd rather do is train yourself to inject all your hatcheries in a cycle of 25- 30 seconds to make sure they are injected most of the time. If you still miss larva for production you can add a macro hatch, which is a hatchery you build not for the sake of mining but for the sake of larva production. Then you have one additional hatchery to inject and get larva from.

Zerg in general has a so called macro cycle that should be done every 25-30 seconds which include:
1. Injecting hatcheries
2. Making drones / units (depend on what your plan is, what your opponent is doing, and what stage in the game you are in).
3. Making overlords (the more economy you have the more overlords you should make per cycle, unless you are already above the 200 supply cap, then you can stop with this task, unless you lose ovies. To start with I suggest doing it whatever your supply cap is).

There are more to it, like spreading creep, etc, but to start with you should just train yourself to do these 3 tasks every 25-30 seconds. You can switch the order, but the actions remain the same.
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4116 Posts
May 07 2019 08:37 GMT
#1300
On May 07 2019 14:38 bulya wrote:

Hey thank you so much for the detailed explanation, especially the part with the injections stacking, because I thought that they do not stack and I also thought that the blue and grey bars over the hatchery have something to do with them, otherwise, I have 15+ years BW experience, so I struggle only with SC2's specific basics. For example I am still working on how to arrange the queens, which ones and how many to have on controls, which or how many to stay around the hatcheries so I can react fast with them for defending but also to maintain creep spread and injections at the same time. Its important for me to optimize these things since I am old and my apm became atrocious, like 100-110
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
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