EPTThe LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 66
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M2
Bulgaria4123 Posts
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
How fast will it happen depend only on your keyboard's repeat rate. In windows there are the keyboard options that decide how long do you have to press a key before it spams it and how fast will it spam it. There is software that can make this spam even way more then the default settings, and some pros use that software. Its completely legal by means of competition, but I don't know casuals who use such software. I don't actually need even though the ling is one of my favorite units so I spam them quite a lot (I mean that I do that a lot, and the speed I can set with the windows settings is good enough for me). Same goes for morphing banes, lurkers, ravagers and broods. There is a slight change between those morphs and a bane morph by means that a bane morph can't be queued by using the shift button while the others can be queued. I.e, I can move corruptors to a dead space in the air and queue them to morph to broods once they get there. But I can't move lings to a good location and queue them to morph into banes there. The bane morph happens the moment you press it, no matter if you hold shift or not. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4123 Posts
On May 10 2019 02:23 bulya wrote: Yes, you can hold a key, say 'z' for zerglings, and all the larva you have will turn into zergling cacoons unless you get supply blocked on the way or run out of money. In the later case not all the larva will turn into that unit but just what you can afford. How fast will it happen depend only on your keyboard's repeat rate. In windows there are the keyboard options that decide how long do you have to press a key before it spams it and how fast will it spam it. There is software that can make this spam even way more then the default settings, and some pros use that software. Its completely legal by means of competition, but I don't know casuals who use such software. I don't actually need even though the ling is one of my favorite units so I spam them quite a lot (I mean that I do that a lot, and the speed I can set with the windows settings is good enough for me). Same goes for morphing banes, lurkers, ravagers and broods. There is a slight change between those morphs and a bane morph by means that a bane morph can't be queued by using the shift button while the others can be queued. I.e, I can move corruptors to a dead space in the air and queue them to morph to broods once they get there. But I can't move lings to a good location and queue them to morph into banes there. The bane morph happens the moment you press it, no matter if you hold shift or not. thanks a lot | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4123 Posts
p.s. Also I am not quite sure that I understand when banelings are good and when not. I mean when they rush banelings, usually its good to have them too, but how do I decide when to use them or when do I have to expect them? are they tied to some of the openings ? | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
If you want to read some deeper stuff with some VODs, you can check this site https://sc2swarm.com/. It has a ZvZ section at the top. The most aggressive stuff in a ZvZ is a 13-12 all-in (there are ways to transition, but I'm talking about the all-in): 13 - gas 12 - pool 14 - ovie @100 pool - ling speed and queen @50 gas - bane nest with one of the 3 drones mining gas, so that only 2 mine gas afterwards from here on constant ling bane aggression. As defense the other zergs can even sac his natural hatchery and be fine if he opened in a macro way, 2 queens on the ramp with a spine behind them can hold it, but its not as easily done as written. Most macro way is a regular 16 hatch or 17 hatch first (16 or 17 is quite a priority thing): 16 - hatch 18 - gas 17 - pool 20 - ovie @100 pool queens at both hatches and one pair of lings for scouting from here on it depends on your build order. A way of making it a bit safer is switching it to 17 pool after the hatch, and then 16 gas. Doesn't delay the extractor by much, but a bit less economic still. Perhaps a gasless opener can be treated as a more macro one, but it makes it hard taking a third, so gasless openers turn usually into 2 base all-ins or sharp timings of 2 base while taking a third behind that. A quite safe still macro way of playing is a pool first build, and if you want to be aggressive to compensate for the lack of mining then even gas pool hatch rather then pool hatch gas. At my level I don't meet 13-12 all-ins that often, but 12 pools are common which is why on small maps I prefer going a bit safer.(either pool before gas, or pool first). 12 pool is not an all-in by means that there will usually be a quick expansion even though around 10 lings will come to your side of the map to cancel your building hatchery, and canceling that hatch is already enough for the one who plays 12 pool (its about an equalizer). Killing enough drones and denying mining can also be enough for the one who plays 12 pool (that happens if the hatch first player tries to pull drones to defend his natural hatch). But its treated as viable only on smaller maps with small rush distance. So on those maps I play a bit safer then the usual hatch first. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4123 Posts
On May 11 2019 01:32 bulya wrote: The ZvZ guide you read is super old. The meta shifted since then, a few patches changed ZvZ to some extent, and people got better at defending early all-ins If you want to read some deeper stuff with some VODs, you can check this site https://sc2swarm.com/. It has a ZvZ section at the top. The most aggressive stuff in a ZvZ is a 13-12 all-in (there are ways to transition, but I'm talking about the all-in): 13 - gas 12 - pool 14 - ovie @100 pool - ling speed and queen @50 gas - bane nest with one of the 3 drones mining gas, so that only 2 mine gas afterwards from here on constant ling bane aggression. As defense the other zergs can even sac his natural hatchery and be fine if he opened in a macro way, 2 queens on the ramp with a spine behind them can hold it, but its not as easily done as written. Most macro way is a regular 16 hatch or 17 hatch first (16 or 17 is quite a priority thing): 16 - hatch 18 - gas 17 - pool 20 - ovie @100 pool queens at both hatches and one pair of lings for scouting from here on it depends on your build order. A way of making it a bit safer is switching it to 17 pool after the hatch, and then 16 gas. Doesn't delay the extractor by much, but a bit less economic still. Perhaps a gasless opener can be treated as a more macro one, but it makes it hard taking a third, so gasless openers turn usually into 2 base all-ins or sharp timings of 2 base while taking a third behind that. A quite safe still macro way of playing is a pool first build, and if you want to be aggressive to compensate for the lack of mining then even gas pool hatch rather then pool hatch gas. At my level I don't meet 13-12 all-ins that often, but 12 pools are common which is why on small maps I prefer going a bit safer.(either pool before gas, or pool first). 12 pool is not an all-in by means that there will usually be a quick expansion even though around 10 lings will come to your side of the map to cancel your building hatchery, and canceling that hatch is already enough for the one who plays 12 pool (its about an equalizer). Killing enough drones and denying mining can also be enough for the one who plays 12 pool (that happens if the hatch first player tries to pull drones to defend his natural hatch). But its treated as viable only on smaller maps with small rush distance. So on those maps I play a bit safer then the usual hatch first. Thank you so much, very detailed and comprehensible, just one thing I am not sure I got it right, if I want to play pool first but not an all in, just to be sure that I am not gonna be all in-ed, it should be 12 pool again? not 16-17 pool or something like that? Because on my level, I got placed plat 3 after my first 10 games, not sure how good people are there, cannot be something remarkable, coz I started playing SC2 10 days ago, but they obviously know specific BOs and timings, since, I am getting rushed/all in-ed almost ever ZvZ and I can tell that they are using tailored builds, which is super annoying because I only want to get familiar with the game and not dealing with these bullshit, but obviously I have to:-) p.s. Also what is the recommended ratio between banelings and lings? I would assume 1/4 to be banelings? | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
17 gas 17 pool 17 hatch then make a drone, and bank 3 larva for lings. Once the pool finishes you can make 6 lings, a queen and then an ovie. Ling speed next, and a bane nest as a follow-up. This way you can have lings for the coming 6 lings at the beginning (if they attack the hatch let them do so and come with your lings once they finish and the queen can help as well, if they come up the ramp fight with the drones once the lings are in the mineral line, and once your pop you can have the upper hand with the queen that is going to pop soon). If you are being early attacked you can make a spine on the high ground, more queens, more lings, and don't fight with the lings unless you have enough, you don't want to lose lings for free. When it comes to banes then in those fights the banes serve more as a zoning tool. The banes are on a move command and only if his lings are on top of the banes you can a-move them, give them a stop command for a moment and then a move command again, or just make a bane explode using the explode command. This way the banes are not wasted on single lings, and you can take good trades with the lings you have together with your queens without him having an option to add more as if he adds many new lings you can explode them with a single bane. Ratio is hard to tell. On the defense queens and banes is almost all you need, and once you have enough queens and banes you can simply drone, even if you were attacked earlier (just make sure the banes are on move commands, or in spots where he won't be microing like the ramp to the main for example). On the offense, its not about ratio, more about having some banes that help you zone the fight so that you can ignore half or more of his lings to take good trades with the lings you have there. I like keeping at least 2 banes alive if I'm going for the offense with that, and if there are only 2 then another 2 morphing on the way. But its more of a priority thing. If you went for that build order, but your opponent was greedy, then you have the option to be the aggressor (you will have the quicker banes and quicker ling speed). After all you have 6 lings that don't help you for the defense, but can be very annoying on the other side of the map, or at least force him make units rather then drones. These first 6 lings can sniff what is going on there (is he droning his natural or does he prepare a flood of lings), and if its drones you can make some banes out of those 6 and reinfroce with lings. If its a ling flood coming even though it was a hatch first, then you can make defensive banes, queens, and perhaps even a spine. On your level if you survive the early ling bane phase you are probably ahead. | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
Sometimes 12 pools, sometimes 13 gas 12 pool. Often they take an expand and make some drones at natural but use every single larva in the main to make lings that I can’t see and then flood me with 30+ lings out of nowhere when I could only scout 6-8 lings at the front. Recently a bunch of people have used 15 hatch (after extractor trick) 14 gas 14 pool into overlord into early ling rush with speed and a single queen. Sometimes when the game goes a little longer they ling bane all in me. How can I reliably get to a game where I can outmacro someone? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
If you aren't confident in your early game control and crisis management, you can go: 16h 17p 17g or 17p 17h 16g (I don't remember exact gas timing for pool first but it should be around 16/17 supply, it gets awkards with overlord timing) In general, losing to builds like 2 base ling flood, stems from insufficient ling scouting early game and overlord placement. You should be able to see what your opponent is doing and position queens/make spines/morph banes accordingly. On some maps (I think Cyber Forest is most notable atm), you can skip bane lings (or even ling speed) and go 2 base lair and +1 range with a bit later 3rd base The safety will be provided by the wall off on high ground. | ||
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General_Winter
United States719 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 12 2019 06:15 General_Winter wrote: Thanks. And for dealing with early pools like 12 pool do I need to drone scout to be safe, or will going 17 hatch 17 pool making lings reactively be fast enough? Thanks. You can hold 12pool even with regular hatch/gas/pool, but it requires good drone control (pull plenty of drones, like 9, and attack move zerglings when they target hatchery, when they go for drones, pull them back, rinse and repeat until you have queens and lings). Admittedly, hatch pool has a biy easier time doing that with faster lings. The fool-proof way of defending 12pool is going pool first. | ||
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BrodiaQ
United States892 Posts
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Hydralich
16 Posts
 I face 2 base all in buildht + archon + immortal + chargelots or stalkers they just melt my army. I try roach + hydra + lurker (ht and immortals snipe lurkers) ling + baneling + hydra + (lings and banes dont last long then hydras melt) | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 27 2019 08:03 Hydralich wrote: Nowadays don't know what to do against Protoss I face 2 base all in buildht + archon + immortal + chargelots or stalkers they just melt my army. I try roach + hydra + lurker (ht and immortals snipe lurkers) ling + baneling + hydra + (lings and banes dont last long then hydras melt) It seems you are a metal league player and it's very hard to give advice without a replay then. Post a few and you will definitely be helped. In general tho, vs 2 base allins you shouldn't try to tech to lurkers at all, it's too far down the tech tree. The best defense is mass roach/ravager/ling and sometimes hydras or banes. | ||
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Hydralich
16 Posts
 http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/11004147 Ok it seems I rushed to kill his 3th without scouting and sucked but on the second thought I'd go for banes against that many zealots and lose anyway | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 27 2019 19:38 Hydralich wrote: No I am gold rank 1 player http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/11004147 Ok it seems I rushed to kill his 3th without scouting and sucked but on the second thought I'd go for banes against that many zealots and lose anyway Ok so, the reason you lost this game isn't because of composition, but because you had an awful start and were WAY behind in army value. Look at the graph at the site you uploaded to. 2000 resource behind. That's almost always a loss, regardless of army compositions. I'm having trouble opening the replay (thanks sc2 updates zzz), but just from replaystats overview I can tell you: -you had 9 roaches at 4 minutes, you started your roach warren at 20 drones! That's 4 drones (25% economy boost) you sacraficed. making units isn't bad, but you have to use them! 9 roaches could have actually just killed your opponent, if you had walked them across the map! It's a very big commitment early on. Whenever you make units as Zerg, you want to put them to use. Every unit you make is 1 less drone you can spand larva on. After that, you are actually just way behind. You have to understand that: a) getting 0 value out of a huge commitment of 9 roaches on 22 drones can straight up lose you the game even in Gold league b) as long as you stay low eco and make army over drones, your opponent isn't actually all-in You might perceive the Protoss build as all-in, but he has better economy than you throughout the entire game. The Protoss player is just steadily teching on 2 bases vs a Zerg that has no drones. I recommend: a) learn to use your units whenever you make them. You will build big advantages in gold just out of attacking whenever you have units, and pulling your units home when opponent has bigger army b) focus on the thing you want to: -in the linked game you stay very low on drones, but grab 3 bases and tech to +1 and roaches and hydras. It would better if you had decided to either: 1) stay on 2 bases, drone them up, and tech to roach/hydra with upgrades to get aggressive 2) get on 3 bases and cut units to the complete minimum needed while droning, then get upgrades, units and tech Obviously 2) is much much harder to do. First of all, though, I would recommend watching the game after every loss. It's very hard sometimes to sit through games you know you blew, but very very often you can spot mistakes you had no idea you had made. The game you linked, I think comes down to just the early roaches that ate up a ton of your money and sat idle. After that, your build seemed to be a bit all over and it was very hard to make a comeback. | ||
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Hydralich
16 Posts
I used those roaches but retreated because protoss had barricade sheild battery 2 3 stalkers and 1 immortal. I guess ravager could be usefull but I prefer to go hydra. btw I thought zerg needs +1 base everytime to win  | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On June 28 2019 00:55 Hydralich wrote: Thank you mate I used those roaches but retreated because protoss had barricade sheild battery 2 3 stalkers and 1 immortal. I guess ravager could be usefull but I prefer to go hydra. btw I thought zerg needs +1 base everytime to win Zerg needs one more base for production and economy at the highest level. Worker count still prevails in most cases. It doesn't matter if you have 7 bases vs 2 if you have 40 drones vs 40 probes | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
This is a very nice build for beginners that's fine in 2019 too: https://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/49751/ | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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