EPTThe LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 43
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
It's been doing pretty well but I haven't been watching SC lately and don't know what the new popular meta is now. Can someone link me a replay or just give me a brief overview. Thanks | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 27 2016 17:17 Teoita wrote: Guys if you're going to post replays asking for advice, please open your own [H] thread. This thread is more for general advice and strategy discussion. Yeah sorry but as it was relevant for more than one guy in the last 3-4 pages i thought it'd be easier than starting a new thread per person. On August 27 2016 14:33 Icekin wrote: Watched both replay, they were great help. I make really no sentry, this is why sometimes I loose to counter pushes after adept harass. Seems there is a great difference harassing with 6 adepts or 9, more adepts you put in the harass, more damage you can do before they die. Also i noticed u did not harassed with first 2 adepts, things I do pretty often (but 90% of times i loose them even If i kill 6-7 workers). Basically with harass u keep zerg to roach ravager tech, that is easly countered by immortals. My pain is with hydra lurker tech, seems you don't let zerg reach there before it reach critical mass. Game 1 was pretty standard btw, most of times I get dirty builds like game 2, this is why I mess a lot (can't belive you actually hold that push in game 2 without loosing probes, but I think zerg there was not so good) I will give some try to adept build  Yeah i forgot to say that you shouldn't be losing your first adepts as they make a great difference in the follow up push. I did lose the first one but you just wanna shade to scout and go back to base. Adepts are super resistant so unless the zerg already has a huge army in each mineral line, focusing drones will do damage in most cases. Making sentries as your first warpins after the adepts is important to get energy and defend, then later on to actually kill the zerg with my 3 base push. Don't make sentries if you're going for charge instead of blink, because you add archons who not only cost a ton of gas but obviously break the force fields, so you really don't wanna dealy your tech by warpin 500+ gas worth of bad units I have no experience using that opening going for charge instead of blink, but my best guess is you want to warp zealots, get charge and a templar archive instead of warping the sentries. Obviously thats only if you go chargelot-archon-immortal which isn't recommended on a map like galactic, as opposed to gettysburg where you have barely any choke to force field. I rarely encounter zerg who choose ling bling at my level, but when it happens you may or may not want to focus drones, and instead just fight next to a wall or in a choke with glaive (shading on ramp between main/natural for example) as it owns an infinite amount of lings, and diamond players tend to think 35 lings will beat 9 glaive adepts, nope, more like ragequit. Still need to know how to split vs banelings though. If the guy goes roaches you just ignore them and focus drones. In game 2 i guess the zerg saw my army and thought it was won but her army got shot forever by 2 overcharged pylons Play patient, don't take a fight you can't win : warping in the natural, pulling back behind the wall, dodging biles, remaking the robos, and getting as many overcharges as possible (i let the msc die when its energy run out and remake it instantly), all made the difference, with the execution of a diamond sure, but it still won me the game :D Now you've successfully held the allin : Asking yourself questions ingame is a simple way of improving decision making - Is he droning/teching again? I kill him. - Is he still maxing army because hes scared of a counter attack? Don't even need to take a fight so early in the middle of the map like i did because if he lands like 2 more biles hes back in the game. Now how to answers those questions : pushing out for scouting and not necessarily to do damage is a useful habit, as long as you have force fields on a map like galactic you can always pull back. I also avoid creep at all cost, only take fights near chokes and try to never overextend. As you can see at the 4th on frozen temple, i keep picking off units and try to force field while still standing near the choke off creep, and my WP is in a safe spot to warpin. Only when i'm sure the game is won do i actually go up that ramp. On galactic same idea when i push at the zergs third, game was already over but why take risks? The fight in the middle was a mistake, this is another example of how you lose a game when you're ahead in every possible way. You would look at this and think zergs is just too strong, "i killed 7 drones, he lost a ton of mining time, failed an allin and still has this many units!", or you just take this fight near a choke and win every single time. | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
On August 27 2016 21:56 iMrising wrote: I've been doing okay with PvZ but I'd like to add some flexibility in my matchup. I'm around a 4.6k mmr and everytime I hit a PvZ I just go Nexus first -> 5 phoenix -> double robo charge -> Storm It's been doing pretty well but I haven't been watching SC lately and don't know what the new popular meta is now. Can someone link me a replay or just give me a brief overview. Thanks Can u provide some replays of your pvz? Trying to improve and I need all builds avaible! | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
Random thing that I just came across. In one of the GSL games PvZ with Dear (forgot the game). Tastosis commented on Dear's build as being date ie like from 3 months ago. The build at a high level goes - 1 gate expand - 3 gates 5 adept pressure - double stargate phoneix (make 6 phoneix) - double robo immortals Has anyone done/tried this style? I've been using it a bit and it seems very strong and has an answer to most things. What are the weaknesses? Why did it stop being used (not that I realised this was being used to begin with). | ||
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Artikash
1 Post
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On August 29 2016 09:24 Dracover wrote: Hi All Random thing that I just came across. In one of the GSL games PvZ with Dear (forgot the game). Tastosis commented on Dear's build as being date ie like from 3 months ago. The build at a high level goes - 1 gate expand - 3 gates 5 adept pressure - double stargate phoneix (make 6 phoneix) - double robo immortals Has anyone done/tried this style? I've been using it a bit and it seems very strong and has an answer to most things. What are the weaknesses? Why did it stop being used (not that I realised this was being used to begin with). Yeah i do it sometimes, it's the only way i can make Adept openings work actually. Its main weakness is that you are committing a lot of resources to harassment and delaying your tech and third base, so if the Zerg holds off all your pressure with no losses you're behind. On August 29 2016 14:23 Artikash wrote: Can/How do I hold proxy rax marines with gate gas nexus scout after nexus? Video/Replay of this preferred. Make stalkers, rely on photon overcharge, kite well. I'll see if i can find a replay. edit: i cant find any decent replay sorry  | ||
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KatatoniK
United Kingdom978 Posts
I've found the most success recently going full skytoss off 3 bases. Mostly with VRs and Tempests but it's still an uphill struggle getting there. I've tried adept builds but I've mostly been unsuccessful as most Zergs at my level seem to go for quick roach warrens and it's hard to get damage done. I'm a more macro orientated player and I like to try and get to late game with high tech units but I'm not sure that's a good approach to the match-up nowadays. | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
Adepts harass works only half of time, and not because of micro, because zerg just over react too well. Most of time zergs scouting TC first, starts placing spines and building roaches off 3 bases. So adepts do something like 0 damage. Then, even if I push back first counterpush, zerg already took some extra bases or even worse, he tech to muta and i'm dead. Other times, Zerg took some harass damage, but they were already teching to muta: can't reach stalker count in time, and it's gg. I wonder: on wich server are you playng guys? Also, correct me if i'm wrong, back to hots when a zerg had same bases as protoss, protoss was in really good spot. Now, off 2 base for example, I can't stand a zerg on 2 base. I noticed this today while tryng Dear 2 immortal 7 gate all in: with 2 immortal, few sentries, and adepts/zea/stalker, i can't beat a 2 base zerg with roach ravager. The only way of killing it is he made huge mistake and I cut his army. As time pass, zerg army become way more stronger than protoss one..I guess because only real counter to roach is immortal and not gate units. Is this correct guys? I really need a 2 base all in to alternate with my sg style, any replays? | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 30 2016 00:53 Icekin wrote: So, i'v done a lot on TC openings, I think i'm just unlucky but I have more success opening stargate. Adepts harass works only half of time, and not because of micro, because zerg just over react too well. Most of time zergs scouting TC first, starts placing spines and building roaches off 3 bases. So adepts do something like 0 damage. Then, even if I push back first counterpush, zerg already took some extra bases or even worse, he tech to muta and i'm dead. Other times, Zerg took some harass damage, but they were already teching to muta: can't reach stalker count in time, and it's gg. I wonder: on wich server are you playng guys? Also, correct me if i'm wrong, back to hots when a zerg had same bases as protoss, protoss was in really good spot. Now, off 2 base for example, I can't stand a zerg on 2 base. I noticed this today while tryng Dear 2 immortal 7 gate all in: with 2 immortal, few sentries, and adepts/zea/stalker, i can't beat a 2 base zerg with roach ravager. The only way of killing it is he made huge mistake and I cut his army. As time pass, zerg army become way more stronger than protoss one..I guess because only real counter to roach is immortal and not gate units. Is this correct guys? I really need a 2 base all in to alternate with my sg style, any replays? I'm on EU If the zerg overreacts, has roaches and make spines, you've already done damage, you don't need to commit, your own third is on the way and he just wasted money on static defense so you can just go back with the adepts to help defend in case of trouble. Or if he has mostly slow roaches you can shade in a couple times and cancel to gain time Theres no way a zerg just gets to muta like this, you didnt scout well (count his gases) and misdjudged the size of his army. Remember you have hallucinated phoenixes to not get surprised by any tech switch. The zerg can't have enough roaches and spines to defend this perfectly while going for mutas without cutting drones. Maybe you forgot blink after glaives, and stalkers is all you're supposed to make from the warpgates after you made the first wave of 5-6 sentries so idk how you can die to mutas. The reason i do that follow up 3 base immortal-sentry-blink push is to kill people trying to do something like that. Hes never gonna be able to take a straight up engagement vs FF + guardian shield with roach into muta unless you have serious macro issues. You don't wanna be pushing when mutas are already killing probes at your main with that build. Zerg still wants 1 more base than the toss, maybe not as fast as in hots but as you said it was and still is good for protoss to be on even bases, so why the hell would you even attack? Another example of poor decision making (have you read my previous posts? :p) Keep scouting for the zergs third and take your own, no way he can just kills you against overchagred pylons when you already made tons of units for an allin previously. You can even contain him with force fields on his 2 bases, no need to take a fight, you're ahead. Sorry i only ever allin in zvz so no builds here :p | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
Results were awful: loose to bust, drops, roach ravager push. An average zerg can exploit that opening really easly, since their counter are avaible in early. I don't know if is just bad luck this week, but I think stargate, even without phoenix (just oracle) is way more safer than adept opening, expecially when zergs can abuse their early game and take free win. Scout wise, only stargate can make you stay safe from early aggression..even if I scout fast warren or drops opening TC, I have few units to stop them, and there are not so many zerg than jumps in my PO  Don't misunderstand me: adept opening when zerg play standard is great. But below master level, no zerg plays "standard". I'm diamond with 4.2k mmr and 90% of pvz ends before 4 min mark unless I open stargate. Maybe at higher mmr zerg start wanting to learn how actually play this game and stop doing dirty thing, dunno Anyway I really envy you guys that have more than 50% in pvz, I'm really stuck on 38% I'v asked this also on reddit: there is a dt drop build into chargelot archons by sos, does anyone know how it works? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
The build you're talking about was used by Classic on King Sejong Station against Rogue. What he did was rush for a dt drop (if you're lucky the zerg will think you're going for an Adept/Robo build and not get spores), abused warp prism range to harass a bit even though his dts actually did no damage, cut probes at 46, got a third only to mine from it once his main/nat mined out, and allined with 7 gates, charge, a couple of immortals and 3 archons (two of which from the early dts). Rogue was going mass roach and didn't stand a chance, it was hilarious especially because it looked like a build i did in 2012. | ||
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Entropy137
Canada215 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 31 2016 07:20 Entropy137 wrote: I just got wrecked in PvZ by a Hatch rush at my natural. Let the hatchery finish thinking I could deal with it in time and got swarmed with lings and drones, and eventually spine pushed. Im guessing I need to pull probes to cancel the hatch? How many is too many? should I fully wall off? Im 4.2K mmr Dia, wondering what the correct way to deal with this is. Like Teoita and rinehart said, if you see the hatch before its halfway done you need 8 probes to kill it with chronoed zealot before it does anything dangerous. If its close to finishing pull a bit more obviously On August 30 2016 15:29 Weltall wrote: Since there is so much discussion on adept opening, I tried this week playng only with 3 gate adep opening. Results were awful: loose to bust, drops, roach ravager push. An average zerg can exploit that opening really easly, since their counter are avaible in early. I don't know if is just bad luck this week, but I think stargate, even without phoenix (just oracle) is way more safer than adept opening, expecially when zergs can abuse their early game and take free win. Scout wise, only stargate can make you stay safe from early aggression..even if I scout fast warren or drops opening TC, I have few units to stop them, and there are not so many zerg than jumps in my PO Don't misunderstand me: adept opening when zerg play standard is great. But below master level, no zerg plays "standard". I'm diamond with 4.2k mmr and 90% of pvz ends before 4 min mark unless I open stargate. Maybe at higher mmr zerg start wanting to learn how actually play this game and stop doing dirty thing, dunno Anyway I really envy you guys that have more than 50% in pvz, I'm really stuck on 38% I'v asked this also on reddit: there is a dt drop build into chargelot archons by sos, does anyone know how it works? Teoita summed it up pretty well, it has nothing to do with zergs not playing standard (and i play at 4.4k mmr so not far from you), more like protoss are so used to going stargate that they don't know how to scout and read builds any other way it seems. What do you build out of your first gate before you reach warpgate? I doubt you die before the 4 minute mark. Allins are only gonna get stronger when you reach master, way more scary than macro. Theres no reason why you can't hold with 3 gate glaive adept double robo blink compared to non upgraded gate units with stargate, its just different and you're not used to it, my guess is macro mistakes, bad wall and positionning. If they avoid overcharges instead of killing the pylons thats time for more warpins, while his units are running across the whole map, it's not a problem. I don't think its necessary to go over your replays as i already went through some in the last 2-3 pages, but if you used all the info i gave there you wouldn't have lost to a 4.2k mmr zerg, or maybe to like one max :p People often overlook mistakes because they either don't analyse their replays enough or not at all. I don't watch replays all the time but when i do, it might take me 15-30-45 minutes, an hour sometimes, to figure out most of the stuff that went wrong. Some things are obvious and others take several times going from beginning to end to notice. Was the build properly done, did i forget buildings/upgrades for more than 5 seconds? How many times and for how long in total? Did i cut probes, got supply blocked? How many times and for how long in total? Did i miss a warpin cycle/production on robo/stargate? Same questions as above. Did i react fast enough to what i scouted? (use scouting probe to see third, adepts later, then hallucinated phoenixes as stated in previous posts) If allin, how did i handle the defense? (units given away, too many overcharges at once, not chrono the warpgates...) etc... | ||
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Entropy137
Canada215 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On September 01 2016 22:14 Entropy137 wrote: Wondering what a good response to seeing 3 hatch before pool is when I open standard with a gateway->nexus opening. I feel so handcuffed trying to play a standard game from this position. Should I all in him? Start going nexus first in my pvz's? Skip the mothership core for your tech (most people already do with stargate openings, i tend not to vs hatch-gas-pool on maps where its hard to defend like frozen temple) Go for an earlier third than usual if your adept scout passive play. If they don't drone up their 3rd and still mine gas/have 2-3 gases taken already, you just stay defensive for possible agressions and keep scouting with whatever you have (stargate units or hallucinated phoenixes) to look for a transition because they might (rarely) fake. Sometimes i just add a second gate after my nexus and go for full 2 gate adept production to just abuse their later speed and kill as many drones as i can to even it out | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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