EPTThe LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 41
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Davec433
18 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 23 2016 23:03 ArtyK wrote: Whats your current MMR though? Imo almost any style is viable below or even at GM as some streamers can prove. Theres a point where the terran will have too many liberators and that's the point where you either have some type of aoe or already transitionned to tempest, you can't play gateway style forever. But before that it's been winning me games after games because the sheer amount of glaive adepts + blink stalkers just obliterate MMM with only a few libs early/midgame. You just need to shade on top of the bio and blink at the last second to kill the liberators and it does it for me unless i took big economical damage beforehand. Obviously it's all about learning when theres few enough libs that you can afford to go for it or not. I wanna say I'm 4.2k-4.4k somewhere in that range... Have played like 3 ladder games since the ladder change though. | ||
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mentalmath
United States38 Posts
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On August 24 2016 05:50 mentalmath wrote: how important are upgrades in adept style pvp and when should I be grabbing them? double forge off third? single off the natural? Based off recent pro games one forge after thirdish. We saw one game on Dusk where Zest went double forge but classic rushed templar with storm and won the game. Zest also went chargelot not adepts to afford more archons | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
My games usually go something like this: -Open Stargate and deal with mass lings forever -Get enough adepts out to deal with lings and he has Hydras -Get any sort of splash damage to deal with the Hydras and he has Lurkers -Lurkers take so long to kill that I forfeit any economic advantage I gained through harass and eventually just get run over or -Open Robo and die to Ravager all-in or Muta I have a 2 base all-in that is yet to be beaten on the ladder, but I'm not interested in that. Does anyone have similar issues with PvZ? It's not that I don't watch pro games. It's that the strategies played by pros are just too difficult to replicate effectively. I watched some of Zest and Dear's games as told by TL.net and frankly I can't play like that. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
When i lose i either get allined very early on or i fuck up and amove into lurkers when i shouldn't. It is really easy to throw though, i'll agree with that. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 25 2016 23:16 Teoita wrote: When i win i just kinda harass and then either find an opening to kill his lurkers with my ground army or get templar/skytoss and shit players cant micro out of storms, so yeah. When i lose i either get allined very early on or i fuck up and amove into lurkers when i shouldn't. It is really easy to throw though, i'll agree with that. Kill dozens of workers with harass, kill 1-2 expansions, try to finish him off, die to Lurkers. Repeat. | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 25 2016 23:46 DinoMight wrote: Kill dozens of workers with harass, kill 1-2 expansions, try to finish him off, die to Lurkers. Repeat. If you do that kind of critical damage and still lose youre doing something wrong, like lose your entire army in the process | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 26 2016 00:40 ArtyK wrote: If you do that kind of critical damage and still lose youre doing something wrong, like lose your entire army in the process My problem is that I can't seem to build any ground composition that kills Lurkers remotely cost effectively. So I sit there trying to get a good fight and it just takes so long that he's able to rebuild his econ. @Teoita: What does your amy look like when he has lurkers? Generally by that point in the game I have 4-5 Phoenixes, a bunch of adepts, some sentries (not many) and some Immortals with a Warp Prism for harass. Maybe 1-2 Colossi or Disruptors. But as I'm getting ready to push a bunch of Lurkers finish and suddenly I'm attacking into 10 of them which just isn't doable. Even with the disruptors... you need 2 shots on each lurker and the downtime between shots is too high to effectively clear the lurkers. So what happens is the game stalls out as I try to transition into air and eventually he just gets ahead again and crushes me with numbers before I can get Full Skytoss + Storm done. The only build I win with is Adept drop harass > DT drops > Immortal/Archon/Adept all-in off 2 bases. In fact I have yet to lose with that build. | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 26 2016 00:50 DinoMight wrote: My problem is that I can't seem to build any ground composition that kills Lurkers remotely cost effectively. So I sit there trying to get a good fight and it just takes so long that he's able to rebuild his econ. @Teoita: What does your amy look like when he has lurkers? Generally by that point in the game I have 4-5 Phoenixes, a bunch of adepts, some sentries (not many) and some Immortals with a Warp Prism for harass. Maybe 1-2 Colossi or Disruptors. But as I'm getting ready to push a bunch of Lurkers finish and suddenly I'm attacking into 10 of them which just isn't doable. Even with the disruptors... you need 2 shots on each lurker and the downtime between shots is too high to effectively clear the lurkers. So what happens is the game stalls out as I try to transition into air and eventually he just gets ahead again and crushes me with numbers before I can get Full Skytoss + Storm done. The only build I win with is Adept drop harass > DT drops > Immortal/Archon/Adept all-in off 2 bases. I had overwhelming success with archon immortal chargelot but seems like pros went away from it, so i changed as well but it still crushes lurkers unless you have bad positionning. It's probably still better on a map without chokes like gettysburg than going for sentries stalkers but pros still do that so idk. Right now im going for 3 gate glaive harass while getting a 3rd at around ~4.30, then add 2 robos (copied from neeb vs hydra on galactic process at DH valencia) So i only make adepts for the harass (which often just ends the game) then make a bunch of sentries in the first 1-2 warpins into mass blink stalkers, and hit a timing after i have like 4 immortals with a warp prism and an observer. If he goes mutas or some other kind of tech greed hes dead. If the game goes on and i see lurkers i add a robo bay and go for disruptors, if you're not ready for them you should always try to force lurkers to reposition and hopefully pick them off with blink stalkers. If you see lurkers when theyre at your base youre probably dead. Apart from ling ravagers allins i feel pretty safe with this although if they go hydra lurker with not many lings or banelings i think archon-charge-immortal is just plain better than what KR pros are showing. Problem is it's harder to transition into after stargate cause you dont make sentries and youre vulnerable to big pushes. I never liked stargate this much and just avoided muta by scouting well and killing zergs that did it in LOTV. Maybe your transition into skytoss is too early as well, because unless you clearly saw a greater spire its just really risky to invest so much when you can crush lurkers with just more units. Don't make colossi in PvZ. | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
please, post your allinish build. I think pvz is utterly broken right now, I really don't know how people make works adepts (countered every time by lings) or phoenix (queens+spores). Even when i kill 20+ drones zerg mass army and kill me straight. I was 8 times master back to hots, now i can't go past diamond (and my winrates are really high in pvp and pvt) So if anyone has 2 base all ins that works good, please post, i really need them! | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:03 Icekin wrote: @Dino please, post your allinish build. I think pvz is utterly broken right now, I really don't know how people make works adepts (countered every time by lings) or phoenix (queens+spores). Even when i kill 20+ drones zerg mass army and kill me straight. I was 8 times master back to hots, now i can't go past diamond (and my winrates are really high in pvp and pvt) So if anyone has 2 base all ins that works good, please post, i really need them! I'd really wish you guys posted replays I think a lot of people have a harder time in lower leagues doing stargate openings cause it requires so much multi task, pretty sure until you get tier 1-2 master multi task you will be better off opening with something else, i know that's what works for me. + zergs are all ready for stargate | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:06 ArtyK wrote: I'd really wish you guys posted replays I think a lot of people have a harder time in lower leagues doing stargate openings cause it requires so much multi task, pretty sure until you get tier 1-2 master multi task you will be better off opening with something else, i know that's what works for me. + zergs are all ready for stargate yep, i just left phoenix opening for this reason. currently i'm opening 2 oracle into ICA, but zerg kills me most of times (fast hydra lurkers). But TC opening are even worse, i do really little damage to adepts and they delay my tech really hard (i kill few workers then just got pressure from lings, roach or hydra lurkers). I'm sure i'm far from good in pvz since it requires way more skill than before, anyway ill post some replay later. But still, i would like to have a nice allinish build, to raise that 30% pvz. | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:16 Icekin wrote: yep, i just left phoenix opening for this reason. currently i'm opening 2 oracle into ICA, but zerg kills me most of times (fast hydra lurkers). But TC opening are even worse, i do really little damage to adepts and they delay my tech really hard (i kill few workers then just got pressure from lings, roach or hydra lurkers). I'm sure i'm far from good in pvz since it requires way more skill than before, anyway ill post some replay later. But still, i would like to have a nice allinish build, to raise that 30% pvz. I don't understand how people play stargate if they can't make ADEPTS work :D If you do little damage youre either messing up the micro or misjudging the size of the zergs army and push out when you shouldn't be? That's why i'd like to see a replay. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On August 26 2016 00:50 DinoMight wrote: What does your amy look like when he has lurkers? Depends on how far we are into the game and on my opening, but generally 4-5 phoenixes, a bunch of immortals, couple of sentries, bunch of zealots, as many archons and templar as i can afford, and however many adepts i have left from early game. Real men don't build robo splash units (im biased like that, but really, i think they are meh unless you open adept>blink). Always have a warp prism on the map, do everything in your power not to lose it. Also, i never ever ever fight against lurkers if they aren't revealed by an oracle. On August 26 2016 00:50 DinoMight wrote: The only build I win with is Adept drop harass > DT drops > Immortal/Archon/Adept all-in off 2 bases. In fact I have yet to lose with that build I give this build the Great Book seal of approval. In my experience (and my mmr is still super low, i have no time to practice so im at like 4.2k) in lower leagues people suck at droning and are really really good at making way way too many spores, so the phoenixes pay off even if all i do is snipe a couple of overlords and a queen. I see 2-3 spores per base plus a couple in random ass spots all the time, it's hilarious. | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:02 ArtyK wrote: Don't make colossi in PvZ. Actualy, I found that colossi can work vs certain compositions of zerg. Even in standard game I sometimes get 2-4 distruptors and then switch to colossi. Of course that's a bit late transition and only when I know zerg isn't commiting to spire, but it works surprisingly well. Surviving early game is damn hard, but if I can get past that I feel quite comfortable. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:06 ArtyK wrote: I'd really wish you guys posted replays I think a lot of people have a harder time in lower leagues doing stargate openings cause it requires so much multi task, pretty sure until you get tier 1-2 master multi task you will be better off opening with something else, i know that's what works for me. + zergs are all ready for stargate I can post you replays of my stupid allin build  it literally hasn't lost.Will do when I get home. Also I'll put up some replays of me playing for feedback. | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:41 OsaX Nymloth wrote: Actualy, I found that colossi can work vs certain compositions of zerg. Even in standard game I sometimes get 2-4 distruptors and then switch to colossi. Of course that's a bit late transition and only when I know zerg isn't commiting to spire, but it works surprisingly well. Surviving early game is damn hard, but if I can get past that I feel quite comfortable. I can see that working if you start with disruptors but its still a huge commitment for something that could be 2 extra disruptors or some archons Colossus really really suck against lings compared to hots/wol and lategame its just something that takes a lot of supply for little value compared to the alternatives Everyone probably knows this by now but a single hots colossus with +2 would one shot +3 armor lings. Now they can't even one shot 0 armor lings with +3 attack. Obviously you make more than one colossus but still an interesting fact :D | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:21 ArtyK wrote: I don't understand how people play stargate if they can't make ADEPTS work :D If you do little damage youre either messing up the micro or misjudging the size of the zergs army and push out when you shouldn't be? That's why i'd like to see a replay. I kill 5-10 drones and force lings. On hots this was huge damage, on lotv, it's meh. After the adept harass they just spam lings and roaches making pressure, until they have lurkers out, then just stomp everything. I will update some replays when i come back home! | ||
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OsaX Nymloth
Poland3244 Posts
On August 26 2016 01:55 ArtyK wrote: I can see that working if you start with disruptors but its still a huge commitment for something that could be 2 extra disruptors or some archons Colossus really really suck against lings compared to hots/wol and lategame its just something that takes a lot of supply for little value compared to the alternatives Everyone probably knows this by now but a single hots colossus with +2 would one shot +3 armor lings. Now they can't even one shot 0 armor lings with +3 attack. Obviously you make more than one colossus but still an interesting fact :D Yeah, I agree with you, but somehow this works. 4 distruptors, then 4 colossi and switch to air after that because it doesn't make sense to make more colossi. 4 distruptors are like a good number so you can fend off zerg trying to attack you, pick up lurker every now and then and just build your fleet behind. But again, I do this only on certain maps and vs certain compositions. And I suck at this game. | ||
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