EPTDisruptors are the typical transition of a blink build if you need to deal with lurkers; without disruptors your stalker army becomes pretty worthless.
That said i still think that anyone who skips phoenixes vs zerg is a terrible person
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 40
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
Disruptors are the typical transition of a blink build if you need to deal with lurkers; without disruptors your stalker army becomes pretty worthless. That said i still think that anyone who skips phoenixes vs zerg is a terrible person | ||
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PPN
France248 Posts
On August 12 2016 17:33 Salva1 wrote: Ok, So I'm at the moment at around 4.8 k MMR on EU servers as Protoss, I started playing a bit again after a 2 year hiatus. Why do you all build adepts in PvZ? Isn't your gas more worth on stalkers and early blink? Since I just played WoL and HoTS, I don't use any of the new units, and honestly the HoTS style seems to work pretty good still in all matchups. What my point is, is there really any reason to build adepts or disruptors at any given point? Playing Gateway Immortal seems like the strongest style in all matchups at the moment, at least to me. Adepts are just better than Zealots in almost every aspect, especially if you have +1 attack and Resonating Glaives. They fight well against anything light on the ground and trade decently even versus Roaches. The only reason you would make Zealot is either to spare gas for something else or just to have a line of meat shield in front of your army. Disruptors are only really useful against Lurkers. I feel HT/Storm is a more reliable AOE overall. Colossi are decent again but you are probably better off making Immo with your Robos and go HT for Archon and Storm. | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
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4ntipode
France27 Posts
On August 12 2016 15:19 Alluton wrote: My standard pressure is 3 phoenix and 7 adepts (2 warp ins from 3 gates and 2 adepts made before warp gate) after I have my third base on the way (2 pylons and msc ready and defending it). Try to scout with the phoenix if the zerg has a ton of lings. In that case obviously back off in other cases start shading around and use phoenix to either kill drones or lift queens/roaches to help your adepts. It is important to remember to get a robo, twilight and and more gates as well as warping in more units while doing this pressure since zerg is likely to build more units in response to your adepts and will (or at least should) try to counter attack to see what you have. What kind of an zerg army comp are you struggling with? ( I find PvZ being the easiest match up for me.) Thank you for your help. Do you rush in with a warp prism when you put your early pressure with 3 phoenix 7 adepts, or is robo not built yet? Do you feel that you need to get damage done with your push in order for the game to go well or do you feel that, the sole fact that zerg have to react to it making lings is enough? It seems that you're going way faster for a third base than I do. After watching a couple of my replays, I feel like a big part of my problem is terrible macro during phoenix harass. I Usually do well vs ravager/roach comp, but when I have to face hydra/lings/lurkers I can't hold most of the time. I'll try to provide a replay when I feel like I macro decently and still don't manage to hold. | ||
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Alluton
Finland113 Posts
On August 12 2016 22:21 4ntipode wrote: Thank you for your help. Do you rush in with a warp prism when you put your early pressure with 3 phoenix 7 adepts, or is robo not built yet? Do you feel that you need to get damage done with your push in order for the game to go well or do you feel that, the sole fact that zerg have to react to it making lings is enough? It seems that you're going way faster for a third base than I do. After watching a couple of my replays, I feel like a big part of my problem is terrible macro during phoenix harass. I Usually do well vs ravager/roach comp, but when I have to face hydra/lings/lurkers I can't hold most of the time. I'll try to provide a replay when I feel like I macro decently and still don't manage to hold. The robo is only building at that time ( I like to build it at my 3rd base). If you force zerg to make lings I think you are fine if you keep your units alive. If you lose any adepts then you want to take some drones with you. In any case the phoenix should kill couple drones or a queen. The most important part of the pressure is to figure out what zerg is doing. | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
They are sorrounder by lings easly, trade bad vs roaches, and mostly zerg learnt how to split forces between bases. Since most protoss here is struggling with zergs, why you guys don't post some replays of successfull pvz with adepts? Also no one complain about lurkers, I should deduce no one has problems with them. When I play standard i kill 20 drones, then 1 minutes later i have to face hydra lurkers no matter what while having half of zerg army, like 4 immortals and adepts/zealots. Abusing chokes zerg bleed me until i loose with lurkers. How can be adept so powerful to prevent lurkers or mutas or anything op zerg has? Show us, please! And do not post pro plays, even zerg at high level play different from ladder ones. Post some actual diamond/master replays! Don't be shy, i won't judge :D | ||
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Alluton
Finland113 Posts
On August 18 2016 16:05 Weltall wrote: I really don't understand how you guys have such a succes with adepts. They are sorrounder by lings easly, trade bad vs roaches, and mostly zerg learnt how to split forces between bases. Since most protoss here is struggling with zergs, why you guys don't post some replays of successfull pvz with adepts? Also no one complain about lurkers, I should deduce no one has problems with them. When I play standard i kill 20 drones, then 1 minutes later i have to face hydra lurkers no matter what while having half of zerg army, like 4 immortals and adepts/zealots. Abusing chokes zerg bleed me until i loose with lurkers. How can be adept so powerful to prevent lurkers or mutas or anything op zerg has? Show us, please! And do not post pro plays, even zerg at high level play different from ladder ones. Post some actual diamond/master replays! Don't be shy, i won't judge :D http://ggtracker.com/matches/6769365 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6761752 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6756970 http://ggtracker.com/matches/6756974 Here are couple of my recent PvZ. In general my goal is to make 1 early adept for scouting and then 7 more adepts for pressure/scouting together with 3 phoenix. Many maps (like natural gasses in new gettysburg or KSS) offer good places for adepts to avoid ling surrounds. Roaches are too slow and the zerg only has a couple of them out (unless he is trying to all-in you) so they have hard time chasing adepts around. I haven't seen a zerg on ladder to go for mutas in a very long time. Maybe a month or so ( I remember one scrappy game on Ruins of Endion). Lurkers are rare as well in my experience. Must say that when ever zerg goes for lurkers it feels like it is my game to lose. Your chargelot/archon/immortal/templar ball is so powerful and mobile (compared to lurkers) and you can use immortals or templar to snipe/damage zerg units slowly. Zerg can't really expand either when you are pressuring them. Of course you can always try to sneak a prism into their main or natural. The main problem is that with lurkers zerg gives you time and slows the game down. I feel like every second that zerg isn't killing you is good as protoss. Here is another prime example why I feel going for lurkers isn't a good choice for zerg: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6770916 Imo the strongest zerg style is to open with ling/bane/queen to be almost immune to adepts or phoenix and to get very good economy and then add either ravagers, hydras or go for hive. If zerg goes directly for some lair based comp (lurkers or ravagers basically) it feels like they need to do damage early in order to overwhelm later or their army is just inferior to yours. | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
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Alluton
Finland113 Posts
On August 19 2016 03:40 Weltall wrote: do you always play forgeless? I try to remember to make it but I am not exactly not sure when I should. (probably once making extra gates after getting 3rd base.) Having upgrades doesn't feel as important in PvZ but it is still something I should improve on. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I'm totally lost PvT. How do you deal with guys who are going 2 rax stim bio drops off 1 base and a super late natural expansion? I feel like that kind of a build is almost guaranteed to do economic damage and they're ahead in tech. If I were to watch 2-3 games from the last few months what would you recommend? Not for entertainment value but purely as an educational exercise? PvZ I'm okay, I mostly allin or Turtle to Carriers and both are working for me. PvP I have no idea what builds are anymore either since it's so rare to ever play a PvP. Thanks | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
For greedier/more passive openings, i think Zest's PvTs in his GSL run are still very good to study. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
How. the. fuck. I get absolutely obliterated whenever I try that. Like, I don't actually understand how that's possible. Is there something he does the camera doesn't quite show that matters a lot that I may not be doing (besides the obvious stuff like him just being 1000x better than me). Is that style even viable outside of GM? I feel like you really have to play like a God to make it work. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 23 2016 22:27 DinoMight wrote: I watched Zest vs Taeja from GSL and he 3-0's him without ever building any splash damage. How. the. fuck. I get absolutely obliterated whenever I try that. Like, I don't actually understand how that's possible. Is there something he does the camera doesn't quite show that matters a lot that I may not be doing (besides the obvious stuff like him just being 1000x better than me). Is that style even viable outside of GM? I feel like you really have to play like a God to make it work. Any replay of you trying it? With mass gateway style maybe you're missing warp cycles or dont have good positionning/engagements. What division/tier are you in anyway? I've been playing PvT this way and it's my best matchup (i play random) but i might very well play at a tier and on a server where it just works better idk... | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On August 23 2016 22:49 ArtyK wrote: Any replay of you trying it? With mass gateway style maybe you're missing warp cycles or dont have good positionning/engagements. What division/tier are you in anyway? I've been playing PvT this way and it's my best matchup (i play random) but i might very well play at a tier and on a server where it just works better idk... I've always been either high diamond or low master (less often) but I haven't been playing as much lately. Is it viable to play completely without splash damage against Terran or is that just a timing that Zest is really good at? I'm very out of touch with the meta. | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
I know when I first discovered the style I didn't realise it was off 3 gas for a very long time. He also gets his third nexus off mcore + adept (maybe a second adept or a stalker as well) around 4:15. Build like 12-14 stalkers then just go pure adept off 7 gateways while getting all your upgrades etc and taking a 4th nexus (7:00 minutes). And then when you are on 4 bases you can get splash if you want, or just keep being aggressive and shading everywhere :D Idk if this will help but there ya go | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 23 2016 22:52 DinoMight wrote: I've always been either high diamond or low master (less often) but I haven't been playing as much lately. Is it viable to play completely without splash damage against Terran or is that just a timing that Zest is really good at? I'm very out of touch with the meta. Whats your current MMR though? Imo almost any style is viable below or even at GM as some streamers can prove. Theres a point where the terran will have too many liberators and that's the point where you either have some type of aoe or already transitionned to tempest, you can't play gateway style forever. But before that it's been winning me games after games because the sheer amount of glaive adepts + blink stalkers just obliterate MMM with only a few libs early/midgame. You just need to shade on top of the bio and blink at the last second to kill the liberators and it does it for me unless i took big economical damage beforehand. Obviously it's all about learning when theres few enough libs that you can afford to go for it or not. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On August 23 2016 22:27 DinoMight wrote: I watched Zest vs Taeja from GSL and he 3-0's him without ever building any splash damage. How. the. fuck. I get absolutely obliterated whenever I try that. Like, I don't actually understand how that's possible. Is there something he does the camera doesn't quite show that matters a lot that I may not be doing (besides the obvious stuff like him just being 1000x better than me). Is that style even viable outside of GM? I feel like you really have to play like a God to make it work. Zest's exact timings in some games are just ridicolous and beyond the reach of human beings. In the Dusk Towers game, he maxes out and kills Taeja about 9-10 minutes into the game while also going storm+tempests AND taking a fifth. That really is fucking stupid and i have no idea how he got remotely close to that. That said, it's definitely a solid way to play and i actually have more success with it than with more turtly 3base colossus things. The most important things to spot in Zest's play are imo: 1) He abuses the shit out of his available timings; he's always looking to pressure when blink completes, then when +1 weapons completes (adepts 2shot marines so they are very good even without glaives), then when glaives complete, then when he has 2/2. He also is very rarely all-in and usually has a transition set up behind any push, so his build pretty much lines up 4-5 strong pressures/timings back to back. This makes perfect sense because mass gateway is a style that wants to fight and trade a lot; if you just sit there waiting to max on stalker/adept and let the Terran make a bunch of liberators you're fucked. 2) He invests in vision a lot, both in spotter pylons and good observer placements. 3) He rarely moves out blindly; if he does it it's because either he sees where the medivacs are, or he can control the terran's positioning with harassment. This is why he's so good at transitioning after DT openings too. 4) He tries to take the fastest possible fourth base (this is why using pylons for vision is so crucial; you can cover 3 bases with osbervers, but 4 is harder especially if you make any immortals or prisms). Since he's going to fight a lot, he needs to keep mining from 24 mineral patches; if you stay on 3 bases (which is doable if either you tech or go allin) you can run out of momentum very easily. For me personally, the most common way to lose (minus one base allins) is if i take a lot of damage either very early on or right after i take my third. If you don't take damage, you hit this sick production spike when your glaives and upgrades are done, so you can very easily take map control, invest a lot in harassment, go for a poke or even a kill move, etc. Instead the terran does a lot of damage or trades very well early on, his 3base income (plus mules) kicks in when yours does too, you never have a scary army so it's really hard to take good fights. The only way i found to play out of that situation is to turtle up, hope he over commits or gets his stuff caught out of position, and eventually get tempest+templar, but it's pretty hard. | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On August 23 2016 23:01 mGGrinehart wrote: Well it is true that he is very good at it, but yes it is completely viable. You need decent upgrades (usually double forge eventually), some sentries for forcefield and more importantly guardian shield. Counter attack heaps with a warp prism. I know when I first discovered the style I didn't realise it was off 3 gas for a very long time. He also gets his third nexus off mcore + adept (maybe a second adept or a stalker as well) around 4:15. Build like 12-14 stalkers then just go pure adept off 7 gateways while getting all your upgrades etc and taking a 4th nexus (7:00 minutes). And then when you are on 4 bases you can get splash if you want, or just keep being aggressive and shading everywhere :D Idk if this will help but there ya go I don't even make sentries so it faster to get tech out and when i engage with mass shade adept on top of the terran + blink it's usually hard to make guardian shield or FF useful Taking too much gas too fast is bad for this, but like with every build anyway. Theres always a third nexus building before the 3rd and 4th gas, and i usually go warp prism glaive harass with this So yeah basically after i reach 12-16 blink stalkers i literally just spam adepts and its just super strong if you dont fail in fights | ||
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