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On August 26 2016 02:08 OsaX Nymloth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 01:55 ArtyK wrote:On August 26 2016 01:41 OsaX Nymloth wrote:On August 26 2016 01:02 ArtyK wrote:
Don't make colossi in PvZ.
Actualy, I found that colossi can work vs certain compositions of zerg. Even in standard game I sometimes get 2-4 distruptors and then switch to colossi. Of course that's a bit late transition and only when I know zerg isn't commiting to spire, but it works surprisingly well. Surviving early game is damn hard, but if I can get past that I feel quite comfortable. I can see that working if you start with disruptors but its still a huge commitment for something that could be 2 extra disruptors or some archons Colossus really really suck against lings compared to hots/wol and lategame its just something that takes a lot of supply for little value compared to the alternatives Everyone probably knows this by now but a single hots colossus with +2 would one shot +3 armor lings. Now they can't even one shot 0 armor lings with +3 attack. Obviously you make more than one colossus but still an interesting fact :D Yeah, I agree with you, but somehow this works. 4 distruptors, then 4 colossi and switch to air after that because it doesn't make sense to make more colossi. 4 distruptors are like a good number so you can fend off zerg trying to attack you, pick up lurker every now and then and just build your fleet behind. But again, I do this only on certain maps and vs certain compositions. And I suck at this game.
Who doesn't :D
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On August 26 2016 01:26 Teoita wrote:
I give this build the Great Book seal of approval.
Haha. I will eventually do a writeup on it.
I stumbled into this build by accident. Trying DT drops and making immortals then realized he was going Spire. So I cancelled my expansion, turned all my DTs into Archons, and just all-ined him. Won HANDILY and was immediately raged at.
I've refined it a bit since then but it works so well - against 4.2k Zergs at least. And against every single unit comp.
On August 26 2016 01:26 Teoita wrote:
In my experience (and my mmr is still super low, i have no time to practice so im at like 4.2k) in lower leagues people suck at droning and are really really good at making way way too many spores, so the phoenixes pay off even if all i do is snipe a couple of overlords and a queen. I see 2-3 spores per base plus a couple in random ass spots all the time, it's hilarious.
I don't ever play (too busy w startup life) and I'm at 4.2k as well. I feel like opening Phoenixes for me does nothing but "secure" the tech he's going to pick. If I go Robo, I don't know what he's going to build... but if I go Stargate, I'm sure AF he won't go Mutas.
I always get a few overlords / drones and maybe a queen or two but it just never seems like he's that far behind. Always able to get a fuck ton of lings out regardless and win back the map no matter how many Adepts I make.
After that it's Hydras/Lurkers again........
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I uploaded only these two since previous replay does not match current game version
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6778874 -> scouted pool first so i added few gate and delayed a bit tc. The adept harass here is pretty useless (maybe it's later) since he already has roaches out. As prism is ready i try do some harass, but i do 0 damage (maybe i'v could done a bit more with dts on the fourth base). The main fight is lost due to lurkers, i lost my obs so it was gg. I quit after see muta switch since i had no sg.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6778873
Imba drop opening. I managed to hold (he used this broken strategy also game before) but game is already lost, since he had no drawback (3 base, hold my counter push with mass lings). Such a stupid matchup.
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On August 26 2016 04:22 Icekin wrote:I uploaded only these two since previous replay does not match current game version http://ggtracker.com/matches/6778873Imba drop opening. I managed to hold (he used this broken strategy also game before) but game is already lost, since he had no drawback (3 base, hold my counter push with mass lings). Such a stupid matchup.
Not sure how to respond to the drop opening actually. Yesterday I scouted a guy with a really fast evo.
So I Ded up and made a Phoenix to scout for overlords but... nothing. He just made drones and came out ahead.
It's one of those things that you absolutely have to scout to prevent, but at the same time all he has to do to fake it is drop an early evo.
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On August 26 2016 04:22 Icekin wrote:I uploaded only these two since previous replay does not match current game version http://ggtracker.com/matches/6778874 -> scouted pool first so i added few gate and delayed a bit tc. The adept harass here is pretty useless (maybe it's later) since he already has roaches out. As prism is ready i try do some harass, but i do 0 damage (maybe i'v could done a bit more with dts on the fourth base). The main fight is lost due to lurkers, i lost my obs so it was gg. I quit after see muta switch since i had no sg. http://ggtracker.com/matches/6778873Imba drop opening. I managed to hold (he used this broken strategy also game before) but game is already lost, since he had no drawback (3 base, hold my counter push with mass lings). Such a stupid matchup.
I can't see the frozen temple game, the orange watch replay button is greyed out for some reason 
What i saw on gettysburg :
-I never nexus first but arent you supposed to build 2 gates before the cyber instead of gate-cyber-gate like you did?
-nice reaction with the pylon block in the choke but you should keep the probe on his side of the map, like at the 3rd.
That way you can scout later if hes committing or not, in this case he didn't and the guy had 3 hatch when you were still scared of him.
If you saw his followup you could have skipped the msc to tech right away, and you didn't need to pull probes out considering hes not gonna kill your wall with 6 lings before you get a second zealot, so that was a lot of minerals lost.
-You had the money for warpgate and the msc but you delayed them for no reason, too much stress i guess :D
-in the first 4 minutes or so you missed probe production for like 20 seconds on the 2 nexus and another 20 seconds on one of the 2 nexus, that means you lost like 6 probes without being harassed.
-I think scouting with the adept as soon as it got out is better than with the zealots because his opening had late speedling so you can just shade in to see what's up (granted you knew his 3 hatch followup with the earlier scouting probe)
With all of that fixed, your adept runby comes waaaaaay earlier and probably kills him considering his macro.
You pushed before glaive was finished anyway, and i dont know if it was intentionnal but you split the adepts shade, 2 at the natural and the rest at the third, but your multitask obviously isnt good enough (neither is mine) and they ended shooting at roaches and queens for the most part : you killed 3 drones.
I heavily recommend just shading into the third where you saw almost nothing, and focus drones after drones ignoring the army (unless they have 0 units, in this case i kill the queen first), then shade again to his natural, then cancel or not depending on the zergs positionning.
Theres no way a diamond zerg doesn't lose at least 10 drones in this specific scenario.
At this point youre still at an ok worker count and his tech is bad, the game goes on.
Feels like you have no game plan, for example you have no idea if the zerg even has a 4th or what tech hes going for, but you add your own 4th + templar archives and a dark shrine...
Believe me, focusing on not missing probes (if zergs goes macro obviously) and warpin cycles (incredibly important and often overlooked when watching replays) would be enough to win this game.
Even as blind as you were, simply a bigger army + a 3 base push instead of DT+4th would have been enough imo.
And thats just for the first ~8.30 minutes x)
Considering the rest has been decided by those 8 first minutes i won't bother analysing it, i'm tired x)
On August 26 2016 05:02 DinoMight wrote:
Not sure how to respond to the drop opening actually. Yesterday I scouted a guy with a really fast evo.
So I Ded up and made a Phoenix to scout for overlords but... nothing. He just made drones and came out ahead.
It's one of those things that you absolutely have to scout to prevent, but at the same time all he has to do to fake it is drop an early evo.
Wouldn't an oracle make more sense? It helps not getting screwed over by lings if he commits at the front + drop, the phoenix can come later to clear the overlords.
And if he doesn't attack, great! You can make a second oracle like zest and go deal damage.
Obviously i never play stargate so i might be wrong.
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Italy12246 Posts
They both work tbh. The one quick phoenix is nice to zone out ovelords and make sure they don't drop more than once; against drop builds i find i can defend decently with just adepts and the msc anyway. Of course the oracle completely roflstomps any of that shit as long as it has energy, so it can work too.
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So I've been going over my recent PvTs and I've been losing to a lot of pushes from terran where they attack off 2 bases with a seige tank and a liberator. The attack tends to come around the time my third is going down.
I always find I struggle to defend against this as all I would have is a handful of adepts and stalkers with blink.
Been watching a lot of GSL and other korean tourneys and havne't seen this style at all so not sure:
1. what to look for i.e. how will I know this is even coming rather than a regular push with 2 extra medivacs
2. what deviation is required from my normal build to stop it.
My standard build is 1 gate FE. then off 3 gate, council and robo a 3rd.
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On August 26 2016 08:19 Dracover wrote:
So I've been going over my recent PvTs and I've been losing to a lot of pushes from terran where they attack off 2 bases with a seige tank and a liberator. The attack tends to come around the time my third is going down.
I always find I struggle to defend against this as all I would have is a handful of adepts and stalkers with blink.
Been watching a lot of GSL and other korean tourneys and havne't seen this style at all so not sure:
1. what to look for i.e. how will I know this is even coming rather than a regular push with 2 extra medivacs
2. what deviation is required from my normal build to stop it.
My standard build is 1 gate FE. then off 3 gate, council and robo a 3rd.
Your build is probably incorrect. The way most pro-players play right now is by getting at least 1 tech structure and add the gates after. Most of the time you also get a third base before you warp in any units with warpgate.
If you could provide a replay of what you are struggling with it would be a whole lot easier to give you advice/suggestions.
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On August 26 2016 07:08 Teoita wrote:
They both work tbh. The one quick phoenix is nice to zone out ovelords and make sure they don't drop more than once; against drop builds i find i can defend decently with just adepts and the msc anyway. Of course the oracle completely roflstomps any of that shit as long as it has energy, so it can work too.
I believe phoenix is better vs drop because vs oracle if u active pulsar beam they can just pick up back in the overlord and wait till your energy is gone. This gives them time to prepare for your oracle and you dont get to kill the overlord so u will need to keep it in mind until u get a stalker/phoenix to scare it away
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On August 26 2016 08:33 Harstem wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 07:08 Teoita wrote:
They both work tbh. The one quick phoenix is nice to zone out ovelords and make sure they don't drop more than once; against drop builds i find i can defend decently with just adepts and the msc anyway. Of course the oracle completely roflstomps any of that shit as long as it has energy, so it can work too. I believe phoenix is better vs drop because vs oracle if u active pulsar beam they can just pick up back in the overlord and wait till your energy is gone. This gives them time to prepare for your oracle and you dont get to kill the overlord so u will need to keep it in mind until u get a stalker/phoenix to scare it away
Good point, if you streamed you could analyse his replays :D
Also, dinomight saying the zerg came out ahead is actually wrong now that i think about it.
I mean, you're going stargate anyway, you're making that phoenix anyway, and the zerg just made an early evo for no reason so if anything the toss is slightly ahead.
The placement of the second pylon next to where drops are most likely to happen is something that can shut down the ovi pretty well too.
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I'm 67% vs Protoss, 60% vs Terran, and under 20% vs Zerg.
Is there a build that doesn't require 8000 apm and perfect engagements every time to beat zerg?
EDIT - switched to Terran and annihilated my first Zerg.
-___-;;;
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On August 26 2016 12:37 DinoMight wrote:
I'm 67% vs Protoss, 60% vs Terran, and under 20% vs Zerg.
Is there a build that doesn't require 8000 apm and perfect engagements every time to beat zerg?
EDIT - switched to Terran and annihilated my first Zerg.
-___-;;;
This is why I asked for some all in vs zerg. Would like to bring up pvz rate while keep training with macro games in unranked. Didn't u said u r 2 base dts work well?
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On August 26 2016 12:37 DinoMight wrote:
I'm 67% vs Protoss, 60% vs Terran, and under 20% vs Zerg.
Is there a build that doesn't require 8000 apm and perfect engagements every time to beat zerg?
EDIT - switched to Terran and annihilated my first Zerg.
-___-;;;
At this point it just looks like you're going in with the wrong mindset, i know you don't have much time to practice but pvz is fine, possibly even protoss favored.
If they can be beaten at GM level they can be beaten in diamond, id still like to see a replay :p although what i said above to icekin might apply to you idk.
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On August 27 2016 00:27 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 12:37 DinoMight wrote:
I'm 67% vs Protoss, 60% vs Terran, and under 20% vs Zerg.
Is there a build that doesn't require 8000 apm and perfect engagements every time to beat zerg?
EDIT - switched to Terran and annihilated my first Zerg.
-___-;;; If they can be beaten at GM level they can be beaten in diamond, id still like to see a replay :p although what i said above to icekin might apply to you idk.
I disagree with that entirely, and I don't think we should be trying to play GM strategies (see blog post I just wrote).
Whatever it is, I'm not good enough to harass with adepts and do all that crap and still come out ahead.
I was 70+% PvZ for a while in HotS. My fundamental concept of what to build and in what order is totally fucked at this point. I'm watching a lot of pro games too. I just can't do what they do.
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On August 27 2016 00:37 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 00:27 ArtyK wrote:On August 26 2016 12:37 DinoMight wrote:
I'm 67% vs Protoss, 60% vs Terran, and under 20% vs Zerg.
Is there a build that doesn't require 8000 apm and perfect engagements every time to beat zerg?
EDIT - switched to Terran and annihilated my first Zerg.
-___-;;; If they can be beaten at GM level they can be beaten in diamond, id still like to see a replay :p although what i said above to icekin might apply to you idk. I disagree with that entirely, and I don't think we should be trying to play GM strategies (see blog post I just wrote). Whatever it is, I'm not good enough to harass with adepts and do all that crap and still come out ahead. I was 70+% PvZ for a while in HotS. My fundamental concept of what to build and in what order is totally fucked at this point. I'm watching a lot of pro games too. I just can't do what they do.
Mmh i guess it came out wrong, i meant if gm players beat other zerg gm players, theres no reason a 60% win diamond cant get that pvz up to at least 50.
And the build i use with adept harass is like the easiest thing imo, you don't even have a warp prism, shade in a base, walk up to another one, decide if cancel or not, end of story.
I also had struggles pvz at the beginning of the season, then just copied one opening and won every game, maybe you just lack scouting or something and blindly make bad decisions in that matchup atm
Having 70% in pvz hots is completly pointless stat imo, i play random and my 9 matchups have completly different ratios every seasons in lotv, having good hots pvz has nothing to do with how you play in this expansion
I've written a post in your blog as well
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Alright you still didn't post replays but i'll give this one, vs a 4.4k MMR player : http://ggtracker.com/matches/6779647
I wish i had a more recent one but that's actually the last pvz i played, i'm random and didn't play 1v1 in a while so there you go...
Some comments :
- I added an earlier 2nd gate cause extra minerals from his gas steal, dunno if worth
- scouting probe assumes zerg takes a third
- I forget glaive almost 20 sec, bad
- pushing out with shades while taking a third, i can just cancel if i see lots of ennemy units
- 4th gas probably too early, should have made the robos before
- floating money, forgot the robos forge and sentry warpins for too long
- opponent scouted the TC, he was ready for DT but doesn't have enough roaches, so i dont cancel the shades and start focusing drones (i actually wasted some attacks on the roaches)
- i kill 20 drones but i lose all adepts so i obviously need defense at home for the very likely counter attack = pylons for overcharge and sentries
Heres where icekin has issues apparently, killing 20 drones then still not being able to kill the zerg.
At this point you're obviously ahead, his counter attack failed so he has to be droning or hes dead with roaches vs immortals. I scout with an hallucinated phoenix and confirmed the guy is teching, so i gather forces and push out with a warp prism and +1, easy decision really.
Zerg still managed to get a decent army and drone count, but good positionning and timing just kills him unless huge mess up
His little runby with ling at my third got easily countered by the wall.
So yeah idk if im lucky and only play against 4.4k mmr noobs and you guys play the 4.4k gods, but i still won with little multitask and while making obvious mistakes still, like any diamond player would do
Alright i just played another pvz and this time the adepts were dealt with easily as i failed to cancel the shades, but they still killed 7 drones in the end and gave me all the info i needed : http://ggtracker.com/matches/6779900
The zergs build was pretty weird : lair into ravager allin with probably one gas too much, without those she probably would have killed me with an earlier push
With what i scouted lurkers were probably not gonna be at my door anytime soon so making a warp prism and observer this early instead of immortals might have been a mistake
Then i guess she didn't respect the overcharges while i was microing my ass off trying to dodge biles, picking up immortals with the WP...and floating 2k
I also lost 20 probes to like 8 lings because i wasnt watching my main
Still interesting to see the opposite scenario compared to the other replay with the same build.
Positionning makes the difference again, as well as obvious decisions like counter attack when she runs out of steam
It might be obvious watching the replay but maybe not ingame, decision making might be what holds you back icekin, and well, i didn't see dinomights games so idk
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On August 27 2016 02:56 ArtyK wrote:Alright you still didn't post replays but i'll give this one, vs a 4.4k MMR player : http://ggtracker.com/matches/6779647I wish i had a more recent one but that's actually the last pvz i played, i'm random and didn't play 1v1 in a while so there you go... Some comments : - I added an earlier 2nd gate cause extra minerals from his gas steal, dunno if worth - scouting probe assumes zerg takes a third - I forget glaive almost 20 sec, bad - pushing out with shades while taking a third, i can just cancel if i see lots of ennemy units - 4th gas probably too early, should have made the robos before - floating money, forgot the robos forge and sentry warpins for too long - opponent scouted the TC, he was ready for DT but doesn't have enough roaches, so i dont cancel the shades and start focusing drones (i actually wasted some attacks on the roaches) - i kill 20 drones but i lose all adepts so i obviously need defense at home for the very likely counter attack = pylons for overcharge and sentries Heres where icekin has issues apparently, killing 20 drones then still not being able to kill the zerg. At this point you're obviously ahead, his counter attack failed so he has to be droning or hes dead with roaches vs immortals. I scout with an hallucinated phoenix and confirmed the guy is teching, so i gather forces and push out with a warp prism and +1, easy decision really. Zerg still managed to get a decent army and drone count, but good positionning and timing just kills him unless huge mess up His little runby with ling at my third got easily countered by the wall. So yeah idk if im lucky and only play against 4.4k mmr noobs and you guys play the 4.4k gods, but i still won with little multitask and while making obvious mistakes still, like any diamond player would do Alright i just played another pvz and this time the adepts were dealt with easily as i failed to cancel the shades, but they still killed 7 drones in the end and gave me all the info i needed : http://ggtracker.com/matches/6779900The zergs build was pretty weird : lair into ravager allin with probably one gas too much, without those she probably would have killed me with an earlier push With what i scouted lurkers were probably not gonna be at my door anytime soon so making a warp prism and observer this early instead of immortals might have been a mistake Then i guess she didn't respect the overcharges while i was microing my ass off trying to dodge biles, picking up immortals with the WP...and floating 2k I also lost 20 probes to like 8 lings because i wasnt watching my main Still interesting to see the opposite scenario compared to the other replay with the same build. Positionning makes the difference again, as well as obvious decisions like counter attack when she runs out of steam It might be obvious watching the replay but maybe not ingame, decision making might be what holds you back icekin, and well, i didn't see dinomights games so idk
Watched both replay, they were great help.
I make really no sentry, this is why sometimes I loose to counter pushes after adept harass.
Seems there is a great difference harassing with 6 adepts or 9, more adepts you put in the harass, more damage you can do before they die.
Also i noticed u did not harassed with first 2 adepts, things I do pretty often (but 90% of times i loose them even If i kill 6-7 workers).
Basically with harass u keep zerg to roach ravager tech, that is easly countered by immortals. My pain is with hydra lurker tech, seems you don't let zerg reach there before it reach critical mass.
Game 1 was pretty standard btw, most of times I get dirty builds like game 2, this is why I mess a lot (can't belive you actually hold that push in game 2 without loosing probes, but I think zerg there was not so good)
I will give some try to adept build 
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I've uploaded a replay
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6780573
This is my typical PvT. Everthing feels ok. Get dropped by terran. hold it more or less. etc get into mid/late game then die. It just feels like i'm not getting out of early game in a good enough position.
Any comments
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On August 27 2016 14:58 Dracover wrote:I've uploaded a replay http://ggtracker.com/matches/6780573This is my typical PvT. Everthing feels ok. Get dropped by terran. hold it more or less. etc get into mid/late game then die. It just feels like i'm not getting out of early game in a good enough position. Any comments
You need something to counter liberators man.
Stalkers are ok, but only when you have to face max 4 liberators.
Then you need double stargate with tempest.
You lost mainly because you had no real counter to liberators!
On large maps I feel comfortable opening stargate: phoenix colossus style with adepts just kill terran easy in mid game.
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On August 27 2016 14:58 Dracover wrote:I've uploaded a replay http://ggtracker.com/matches/6780573This is my typical PvT. Everthing feels ok. Get dropped by terran. hold it more or less. etc get into mid/late game then die. It just feels like i'm not getting out of early game in a good enough position. Any comments
1. Why do you put your 2nd pylon there
2. Did you realize that the terran was on double gas?
3. Your stalkers and msc are really out of position when the first drop comes in. I think you were hoping that terran would just move command his medivac on the minimap and fly straight into those pylons and stalkers. But if terran is controlling the medivac at all he won't lose the medivac to that. And if the terran actually pathed the medivac around the edges of the map (like he did in this game) your units are in a really bad position.
4. You are on 2 bases with 3 gates,forge,twilight and robo. Why do you have 4 gasses? @5:20 you are banking 350 useless gas. Don't take those assimilators and take faster 3rd base instead.
5. Don't send both of your observer out on the map. You need the second one for drop defense.
6. Probe production! Even before the first drop hits you are 40 probes vs 38 scvs @5mins. For example compared to my most recent PvT http://ggtracker.com/matches/6780573 you are behind 5 probes already. This is entirely because of inconsistent worker production.
7. You finally take your 3rd base at 6mins. Terran's 3rd CC is already done! And your 3rd base should be faster than his! At this moment terran is ahead in scvs and you are pretty far behind in this game. Also notice how you are floating already 600 gas.
8. The entire power of this gateway unit based PvT with stalker adept is the economic lead so you can overwhelm the bio with gateway units. @8mins into the game terran has better economy than you and 20 supply lead! That should never happen. Also note that if this terran managed to spend his minerals he could have 40 supply lead (in which case there'd be nothing you could do to win anymore.) Realistically the game is over at this point only terran's bad macro allowed to game to continue after this point.
In short: Search for a good early game PvT build (for example Zest or Stats) and practice that. Currently your build/macro sets you really far behind (missed probe production, too early gasses etc.)
Also for every map that you play open them in custom game one by one and decide where to position your couple first pylons, MSC, stalkers and observers so you can properly defend vs drops (instead of going full yolo and hoping terran flies into some random pylon in the corner of your base.)
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EPT
