EPTThe phoenix/adept drop is this, also with shit mechanics and off 1gate FE instead of nexus first: If my phoenixes see banelings i hit a bit later but with a couple of archons; i have no idea if this really is good since it's just an adjustment i came up with but it makes sense in my head.
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 39
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
The phoenix/adept drop is this, also with shit mechanics and off 1gate FE instead of nexus first: If my phoenixes see banelings i hit a bit later but with a couple of archons; i have no idea if this really is good since it's just an adjustment i came up with but it makes sense in my head. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
What are the basic builds in each matchup and overall gameplan? | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
On August 07 2016 12:50 neobowman wrote: Sorry for the low-effort post but I'm looking to play some SC2 again and since I stopped playing soon after HOTS, I have no idea what I'm doing. I also want to try Protoss which I've never done before. What are the basic builds in each matchup and overall gameplan? PvP is cheese (like hots) or double gate + tech into exp or double gate expand. Then you can go immortal chargelot archons or blink+distruptors..well you need to just adapt based on what opponent is doing. PvT is gate expand into blinkers into glaidepts into immortal/chargelot/ht/tempest or stargate opening with nix into colossus PvZ is where low players struggle a lot, there are few videos just above.Go gate expand then: Sg is pretty mandatory to avoid muta play, you target compo is immortal/charge/archons. Versus lurkers distruptors are good too. Some proes go for colossus: just explore these styles and play the one u feel comfortable more. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On August 07 2016 20:00 Weltall wrote: PvP is cheese (like hots) or double gate + tech into exp or double gate expand. Then you can go immortal chargelot archons or blink+distruptors..well you need to just adapt based on what opponent is doing. PvT is gate expand into blinkers into glaidepts into immortal/chargelot/ht/tempest or stargate opening with nix into colossus PvZ is where low players struggle a lot, there are few videos just above.Go gate expand then: Sg is pretty mandatory to avoid muta play, you target compo is immortal/charge/archons. Versus lurkers distruptors are good too. Some proes go for colossus: just explore these styles and play the one u feel comfortable more. Adding on to this: In PvP cheese feels way weaker than HotS or LotV tbh. In the midgame Glaive timings off 2 or 3 bases seem really strong and are basically murdering everything that tries to go lategame now, so that's something to keep in mind. In PvT it's perfectly fine to go Colossus off blink openings, or to go templar/tempest after opening oracle. Phoenix colossus seems actually kinda rare, where did you get that from? Did people do it in IEM (which i didn't get to watch)? In PvZ you can open 3gate glaives into blink if you dont like stargate but as i posted earlier i think stargate is stronger. Your target comp isn't necessarily to stop at immortal/chargelot/archon, eventually you want both storm and tempest in some situations because otherwise it's really hard to win a straight up game ending fight against lurkers. | ||
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Primelot
51 Posts
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On August 07 2016 20:36 Teoita wrote: Adding on to this: In PvP cheese feels way weaker than HotS or LotV tbh. In the midgame Glaive timings off 2 or 3 bases seem really strong and are basically murdering everything that tries to go lategame now, so that's something to keep in mind. In PvT it's perfectly fine to go Colossus off blink openings, or to go templar/tempest after opening oracle. Phoenix colossus seems actually kinda rare, where did you get that from? Did people do it in IEM (which i didn't get to watch)? In PvZ you can open 3gate glaives into blink if you dont like stargate but as i posted earlier i think stargate is stronger. Your target comp isn't necessarily to stop at immortal/chargelot/archon, eventually you want both storm and tempest in some situations because otherwise it's really hard to win a straight up game ending fight against lurkers. Adding onto the above: PvP: I would highly recommend against Chargelot/Immo/Archon right now. I have had a huge amount of success with 2gate + exp/tech (interchangeable order really, usually stargate). I then add TC/Robo/Gates and get glaives + large gateway army with 1 or 2 immortals and push while taking a 3rd. The style heavily punishes anyone derping around on Immortal tech and actually has a good window to kill anyone transitioning into early disruptors or relying on blink while taking a third base themselves. This style has yielded an almost 75% winrate for me across 25 games this season. PvT: I'm having more issues lately but that's mostly due to my multitasking. Standard build is gate -> gas -> nexus -> core into 3gate + robo + tc. Blink is more standard, glaives first is generally for pushes/timing attacks while taking a third or fully allinning with 7 gates. You can then transition into your aoe of choice, disruptors fastest with templar being slowest. The big issue right now is most terrans just sit on 2 bases and macro up large armies, I think the old gateway/upgrade style is not quite suited for how most terrans in my mmr play the matchup (outside of the ones proxying shit in my base/1 base cheesing etc.). PvZ: My winrate here has improved dramatically over the past couple of weeks (from like 25% to around 45% now). I highly recommend nexus first builds most of the time now. Zergs almost always go hatch first and if you wall in correctly you can be completely safe on every map in the pool (except Dasan because that's my perma-veto) if they decide to swell speedlings. Afterwards, I recommend Stargate builds over tc first builds, although you almost always want to take your tc/robo tech as you expand to your third. Make 2 oracles, then a void ray. Use your first oracle to scout their production, if they have a swell of lings immediately turn it around and with your adepts off 3 gates + 2 oracles + msc/pylons you should be able to hold your 3rd quite easily. From there it's your tech of choice while responding to what zerg is doing, blink/disruptor for most ground based armies works well, and a second stargate/fleet beacon if they still go into muta play. Also to tack on against lurkers, the best way to play against them is similar to how you want to play against meching terran. Avoid their army if you can, force them to come to you. It can be hard to do depending on rush distance but I think without disruptors that's the only way you can really out play their comp. | ||
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biomech
Germany380 Posts
*I need something to focus/rely on to get mechanics back in line. Something i can do over, and over again, with a chance of winning - but winning is NOT the goal. (Maybe Blink Stalker/Sentry/Immortal? ... or Adept/Phoenix? ... pls help me spend resources properly  Thanks in advance! | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On August 08 2016 05:20 biomech wrote: For a "newcomer" (as in starting again since WoL Beta) what would be a self-benefitial* PvX cookie-cutter BO to handle bronze, silver, gold...? I don't mind loosing to cheese, ... gg. *I need something to focus/rely on to get mechanics back in line. Something i can do over, and over again, with a chance of winning - but winning is NOT the goal. (Maybe Blink Stalker/Sentry/Immortal? ... or Adept/Phoenix? ... pls help me spend resources properly Thanks in advance! For 1 base safe, 2gate+tech -> natural nexus. Or try gate->gas->nexus->core openings. you then add tech+2gates for a total of 3gates (I might not do this in PvP unless it's a large map) Both are standard openers that can work in all 3 matchups. Take your 3rd pretty quickly, then add 4-5 more gates, forges, aoe tech etc. I would do blink/disruptor if you want to focus on learning one composition, it'll force you to learn micro+macro well. could also do chargelot/immortal/archon in all 3 matchups + some supporting stalkers/sentries | ||
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Entropy137
Canada215 Posts
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biomech
Germany380 Posts
On August 08 2016 20:53 Entropy137 wrote: Why does it seem like every protoss feels the need the to cannon rush in pvp. Why are you even playing the fucking game if you're looking to play dogshit coinflip games. or maybe like this and enjoy free wins! ^___^ | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
On August 07 2016 23:21 las91 wrote: PvP: I would highly recommend against Chargelot/Immo/Archon right now. I have had a huge amount of success with 2gate + exp/tech (interchangeable order really, usually stargate). I then add TC/Robo/Gates and get glaives + large gateway army with 1 or 2 immortals and push while taking a 3rd. The style heavily punishes anyone derping around on Immortal tech and actually has a good window to kill anyone transitioning into early disruptors or relying on blink while taking a third base themselves. This style has yielded an almost 75% winrate for me across 25 games this season. PvT: I'm having more issues lately but that's mostly due to my multitasking. Standard build is gate -> gas -> nexus -> core into 3gate + robo + tc. Blink is more standard, glaives first is generally for pushes/timing attacks while taking a third or fully allinning with 7 gates. You can then transition into your aoe of choice, disruptors fastest with templar being slowest. The big issue right now is most terrans just sit on 2 bases and macro up large armies, I think the old gateway/upgrade style is not quite suited for how most terrans in my mmr play the matchup (outside of the ones proxying shit in my base/1 base cheesing etc.). PvZ: My winrate here has improved dramatically over the past couple of weeks (from like 25% to around 45% now). I highly recommend nexus first builds most of the time now. Zergs almost always go hatch first and if you wall in correctly you can be completely safe on every map in the pool (except Dasan because that's my perma-veto) if they decide to swell speedlings. Afterwards, I recommend Stargate builds over tc first builds, although you almost always want to take your tc/robo tech as you expand to your third. Make 2 oracles, then a void ray. Use your first oracle to scout their production, if they have a swell of lings immediately turn it around and with your adepts off 3 gates + 2 oracles + msc/pylons you should be able to hold your 3rd quite easily. From there it's your tech of choice while responding to what zerg is doing, blink/disruptor for most ground based armies works well, and a second stargate/fleet beacon if they still go into muta play. Also to tack on against lurkers, the best way to play against them is similar to how you want to play against meching terran. Avoid their army if you can, force them to come to you. It can be hard to do depending on rush distance but I think without disruptors that's the only way you can really out play their comp. The sentence about PvP is not clear...you reccomend "against" ICA? Did u mean to not do ICA at all? Anyway I have a question, you said you push -before- ur third base, with a gate army and 2 immortals. How many gate do you have on backup when your push starts? How is ur army comp at that time when push occur? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
I have also been having lots of success with Adept builds; you pretty much just get a couple of sentries and/or immortals, whatever stalkers you have left from early game (still need a few to defend pushes and/or stargate) and the rest of your army is mass adepts. Shade is extremely powerful in closing in to immortals and sentries, it makes blink weaker, and stalkers kill adepts very slowly anyway. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
14 pylon 16 gate 16 gas 19 stop probe production 19 nexus 19 cybernetics core, resume probe production The only difference between matchups being whether or not to wall off the nat. Is this correct and whenabouts should I get my second gas in this case? I'm also not entirely sure the order for 2-gate expo for PvP which I'm looking to make my standard for that matchup. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
For PvP builds, Artosis just posted this http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/148497264805/meta-ramblings-travel-time | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On August 09 2016 01:25 Weltall wrote: The sentence about PvP is not clear...you reccomend "against" ICA? Did u mean to not do ICA at all? Anyway I have a question, you said you push -before- ur third base, with a gate army and 2 immortals. How many gate do you have on backup when your push starts? How is ur army comp at that time when push occur? I open with 4 stalkers, so those plus a couple sentries, an immortal or two. Rest of the army is adepts. I am usually on around 6-7 gates. I skip a warpin to get a 3rd nexus while I push which lets me support 2-3 warpin cycles pretty easily. After that if you haven't won you transition into IAC or blink/disruptor, whatever your preference. | ||
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biomech
Germany380 Posts
On August 09 2016 03:32 neobowman wrote: So the standard build order for 1gate expo I've found for PvZ and PvT is 14 pylon 16 gate 16 gas 19 stop probe production 19 nexus 19 cybernetics core, resume probe production The only difference between matchups being whether or not to wall off the nat. Is this correct and whenabouts should I get my second gas in this case? I'm also not entirely sure the order for 2-gate expo for PvP which I'm looking to make my standard for that matchup. the 2gate expo + tech from my understanding is the following 14 pylon 16 gate No1 16 gas 17 gas 18 gate No2 20 cybercore 21 pylon ... warpgate etc, make units (adept, stalker...) then mothershipcore. add tech accordingly. nexus at natural when you have the minerals... ~34 or sooner | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
On August 09 2016 03:45 Teoita wrote: Correct, although imo it's a bit better (and slightly greedier) to cut probes at 20. That way you have 3 on gas, 16 on minerals, and one scouting. Also, in PvZ you can choose to wall your ramp rather than your nat; it comes down to map layout and personal preference. Get your second gas at 21 supply and your second pylon shortly after. I've found the best is actually cut at 19 and just not scout. I've found the timing from moving that 19th probe to build a nexus come back build cyber core etc fits perfectly if you don't build that extra probe. Obviously not scouting has it's own problems. | ||
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4ntipode
France27 Posts
I saw Neeb putting a lot of early pressure with adept + oracles, eventually killing some of his opponents but when I'm playing my timing seems always off. I too often find myself attacking when hydras are already out, or when there are too many zerglings out. Is there a precise timer for this kind of attack do you guys have any advice ? Ty in advance. | ||
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Alluton
Finland113 Posts
On August 12 2016 02:00 4ntipode wrote: As many protoss in the thread, I'm having issues with zerg (I'm Plat 2). I saw Neeb putting a lot of early pressure with adept + oracles, eventually killing some of his opponents but when I'm playing my timing seems always off. I too often find myself attacking when hydras are already out, or when there are too many zerglings out. Is there a precise timer for this kind of attack do you guys have any advice ? Ty in advance. My standard pressure is 3 phoenix and 7 adepts (2 warp ins from 3 gates and 2 adepts made before warp gate) after I have my third base on the way (2 pylons and msc ready and defending it). Try to scout with the phoenix if the zerg has a ton of lings. In that case obviously back off in other cases start shading around and use phoenix to either kill drones or lift queens/roaches to help your adepts. It is important to remember to get a robo, twilight and and more gates as well as warping in more units while doing this pressure since zerg is likely to build more units in response to your adepts and will (or at least should) try to counter attack to see what you have. What kind of an zerg army comp are you struggling with? ( I find PvZ being the easiest match up for me.) | ||
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Salva1
3 Posts
I started playing a bit again after a 2 year hiatus. Why do you all build adepts in PvZ? Isn't your gas more worth on stalkers and early blink? Since I just played WoL and HoTS, I don't use any of the new units, and honestly the HoTS style seems to work pretty good still in all matchups. What my point is, is there really any reason to build adepts or disruptors at any given point? Playing Gateway Immortal seems like the strongest style in all matchups at the moment, at least to me. | ||
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