EPTSo now my next questions. Of the games I have lost I've been able to see where I messed up, and how to fix it. However I can't figure out how to hold against a one base marine/tank push. I always open gateway expand, but marine/tank hits me too fast to be able to build up an army to stop it. My PO doesn't have the range to hit the tanks, and nothing I make seems to cut it. So what's the correct hold? Thank you.
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 33
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Hyper1
158 Posts
So now my next questions. Of the games I have lost I've been able to see where I messed up, and how to fix it. However I can't figure out how to hold against a one base marine/tank push. I always open gateway expand, but marine/tank hits me too fast to be able to build up an army to stop it. My PO doesn't have the range to hit the tanks, and nothing I make seems to cut it. So what's the correct hold? Thank you. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
wait as long as you can - even letting your nexus lose up to half health is OK if necessary. when you engage, pop guardian shield/immortal barrier/whatever you've got and a-move down your ramp from as large an arc as possible. obviously he will force you into the choke, but you can still mitigate the first few shots of tank splash by being pre-spread on top of the ramp. depending on the map and your composition shading onto the tank with adepts can be effective too. but once you engage, engage. you can't mess around going into tank range and backing off, that's what he wants | ||
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mentalmath
United States38 Posts
here is a link to the series referenced, thanks in advance! | ||
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mentalmath
United States38 Posts
On May 24 2016 13:16 Hyper1 wrote: So now my next questions. Of the games I have lost I've been able to see where I messed up, and how to fix it. However I can't figure out how to hold against a one base marine/tank push. I always open gateway expand, but marine/tank hits me too fast to be able to build up an army to stop it. My PO doesn't have the range to hit the tanks, and nothing I make seems to cut it. So what's the correct hold? Thank you. What I would do, as you know I am knee deep in SG openers vs T now, is to combined the aforementioned advice above and just let your natural tank. by the time that they arrive, I will have at least 3 adepts, msc, a sentry, an oracle, and a VR available (in reference to the build ive been doing). this will hit right around the time i have 3 warpgates handy as well. If they wait to push until after their bio has stim/shield, then I will have at least 3 more adepts ready to deal some damage, and enough energy for a guardian shield. What I have done with success here is to 1) keep the oracle alive. you should be able to scout if they are going tanks by eyeing a tech lab attached to the factory. unless they go for a timely building switch after your initial harass. If you keep the oracle alive, you will be able to use it in the fight and they do wonders against the bio accompanying the tanks. you can also pop some revelations to gain vision of the army. so again, keep the initial oracle alive, it makes such a difference in the outcome of the game. 2) flank with the void rays, they will keep medivacs humble, force them to lift up the tanks, pull back marines, whatever. If they dont have medivacs, then you can snipe a seiged tank pretty easily. 3) use your gateway units to buy time. buying time is the most important thing here. use shades to keep their push humble by threatening a tank surround. being able to add a gate or 2 with your extra economy as you hold off their push will more or less seal their fate. I'm not sure what exactly accompanies the bio and tanks with this push you face, (im game to check out a replay) but that oracle should force them to make turrets, cyclones, defensive mines, something. The biggest deterrent to a timing attack or all in is having to build defenses and make up lost workers, so just keep up your ability and soon you will crush this sort of timing attack. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
Thanks again! | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
On May 26 2016 14:49 Hyper1 wrote: I never actually thought of shading on top of the tank. I do it during other engagements so it's weird I didn't think about it. I guess that would deal with the majority of the issue. Without the tank to support the marines won't be too tough to deal with. Thanks again! I'm a supporter of shading on top of the marines. Keep in mind the tanks will splash onto his marines also and i'm pretty sure marines lose to tanks much harder than adepts do. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On May 27 2016 09:33 Dracover wrote: I'm a supporter of shading on top of the marines. Keep in mind the tanks will splash onto his marines also and i'm pretty sure marines lose to tanks much harder than adepts do. I'll try that also. Thank you. | ||
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ThreeLilpigs
14 Posts
I understand why starcraft has a very small player base compared to MOBAs, it is an easy game to understand but difficult to master. You could face days of just continuously losing to one strategy, you change it up and lose to another. I have like a 52% winrate or something, i would like to improve that, what would be the best practice habit for a toss stuck in play for like forever (since LOTV launch) | ||
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mentalmath
United States38 Posts
On May 27 2016 15:45 ThreeLilpigs wrote: How do you guys practice? I play an average of 3 to 5 games a day and i usually stop when i get a win streak. I easily get flustered, im just wondering what would be the best way to improve, going all out on ladder at the risk of demotion or quit while your still ahead? I understand why starcraft has a very small player base compared to MOBAs, it is an easy game to understand but difficult to master. You could face days of just continuously losing to one strategy, you change it up and lose to another. I have like a 52% winrate or something, i would like to improve that, what would be the best practice habit for a toss stuck in play for like forever (since LOTV launch) 3 to 5 games a day is all you need to practice, i think. Obviously more is good, but this game can fluster you so easily. When i practice, I am always thinking of executing a game plan against each race. I will set benchmarks for myself i.e. I want to expand by X time, I want to transition out of my first 2 adepts into tech. I want to harass early to scout what my opponent is going for, but also keep my macro up. etc etc. Try to see if you can examine yourself and your flaws (best done through replays) and watch pro games. I always try to catch a few games from the most recent series to see how protoss are playing right now, if there are any map exploits available, what time pros choose to expand and what unit comps they have behind them. There are so many things you can practice on, that actually playing the game only contributes to a certain amount. another thing that I realize is that ladder players play way differently than pros do. in the older installments of sc2, I feel like a build order used by pros had the capacity to hold up better (since the econ was much slower/more laid out), but ladder players are more arrogant and less inclined to take a game further (opinion), so usually you will have to alter your strats a bit to hold against these styles also stopping on a good note is always good, it will have you thirsty to play more sc later. Trying to compete after a streak is really good too. Once your recent w/l ratio is real good, you will be matched against better players, and will be able to take your playing further by competing against said players | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On May 27 2016 15:45 ThreeLilpigs wrote: How do you guys practice? I play an average of 3 to 5 games a day and i usually stop when i get a win streak. I easily get flustered, im just wondering what would be the best way to improve, going all out on ladder at the risk of demotion or quit while your still ahead? I understand why starcraft has a very small player base compared to MOBAs, it is an easy game to understand but difficult to master. You could face days of just continuously losing to one strategy, you change it up and lose to another. I have like a 52% winrate or something, i would like to improve that, what would be the best practice habit for a toss stuck in play for like forever (since LOTV launch) I used to be in the same spot you're in. I'd get easily flustered after a few losses, or even wins that were really tough fought. I've noticed that gameplay changes drastically as you go up in league, both from my experience, and from seeing players on ladder better than me. In gold, it seems like nearly every game is cheese, on massive aggression. I try to play at least 10 games a day, and I try to focus on a few different things. For example, right now my main goal is just scouting. Learning to keep an eye on what my opponent is doing, and trying to learn the tells that will allow me to know what he's going to do. As well as army comp and when he moves out. My secondary goal is to spend all my money. After every game I upload it to ggtracker, and I aim for getting my spending at a diamond level (I'm gold right now). As long as I'm doing both of those things, I'm happy. If I have a good game where I'm doing both without too much problem, I work on microing my units better, shading my adepts, blinking my stalkers, storms/feedbacks, FF/GS, Distruptors.. If I can't focus on micro because I'm pooling up resources, or can't get a scout on my opponent, then I don't worry about it, a-move, and try to keep up with scouting and spending. I've won plenty of games just by having more stuff, and that stuff countering my opponents army because I scouted. As far as your winrate, 52% actually isn't bad. The game will always try to put you against players that are equal rank, so you should be losing as much as you're winning. So even if you get better, it will just put you against better players to balance it out. | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
Zest usually places his third nexus before the first full round of production of his three gateways, around the 4:00min mark. He used this style to take the gold third against TY in the GSL finals (Prion), which means that this style is viable not only in maps which are easy to take a third, such as Dusk Towers and Orbital. I thought for some time that taking such an early third was necessary against terran, but lately I'm watching MCanning stream and he takes his third VERY late, around the 6:00min mark usually. He claimed that you don't need take a third before the terran takes its own. MCanning is by any standards a very successful ladder player, being GM in all of three servers, and his style definitely works for him. What do you guys think? I'm favouring the Zest style now for these three reasons: - Zest stays with only gateway units for a long time, which means that he needs that money and production that an early third gives you. On the other hand, MCanning tends to use disruptors as his main DPS, which means that he can afford to have a lower gateway unit count, less production and less income. I don't like to play with disruptors in PvT. - Zest style makes you able to punish the terran if his first attack is deflected. You can delay or deny his third base and even kill some workers with warp prism harass. MCanning doesn't have the gateway production and unit composition to do the same, considering that its hard to be aggressive with disruptors. - It is actually easier to take the Zest's third, because at that point in the game the terran player will have only a handful of units. Here some vods of these two styles of PvT in action: Zest: MCanning: PS.: As you can see, english is not my first language. Please, ignore the sheer awkwardness of some sentences. Also, I made the same post in the All Things Protoss subreddit. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/6667964 Thanks guys. | ||
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OPDream
Canada77 Posts
On May 30 2016 23:18 Tiaraju9 wrote: Are you guys going with the Zest's third timing in PvT? Zest usually places his third nexus before the first full round of production of his three gateways, around the 4:00min mark. He used this style to take the gold third against TY in the GSL finals (Prion), which means that this style is viable not only in maps which are easy to take a third, such as Dusk Towers and Orbital. I thought for some time that taking such an early third was necessary against terran, but lately I'm watching MCanning stream and he takes his third VERY late, around the 6:00min mark usually. He claimed that you don't need take a third before the terran takes its own. MCanning is by any standards a very successful ladder player, being GM in all of three servers, and his style definitely works for him. What do you guys think? I'm favouring the Zest style now for these three reasons: - Zest stays with only gateway units for a long time, which means that he needs that money and production that an early third gives you. On the other hand, MCanning tends to use disruptors as his main DPS, which means that he can afford to have a lower gateway unit count, less production and less income. I don't like to play with disruptors in PvT. - Zest style makes you able to punish the terran if his first attack is deflected. You can delay or deny his third base and even kill some workers with warp prism harass. MCanning doesn't have the gateway production and unit composition to do the same, considering that its hard to be aggressive with disruptors. - It is actually easier to take the Zest's third, because at that point in the game the terran player will have only a handful of units. Here some vods of these two styles of PvT in action: Zest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldDOtv0W_EM MCanning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViUl_XtJcvU PS.: As you can see, english is not my first language. Please, ignore the sheer awkwardness of some sentences. Also, I made the same post in the All Things Protoss subreddit. The reason why protoss all try to take a fast 3rd in lotv is because you dont have a reliable unit that can deal aoe damage. So you will need more income to support more gateways to make trash units like adepts, chargelots, stalkers. So zest's style is definitely right. I dont know mcanning's style well, but just by watching the video, that's not a build, more like freestyle. | ||
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mentalmath
United States38 Posts
On June 01 2016 08:01 Hyper1 wrote: How do you counter early banshee harass? I just ran into it on ladder, and even after the game I couldn't figure out what the correct response is. I opened stargate, my oracle scouted it in his base. I left my oracle on the other side of the map so I could poke in and look around. I build cannons in my mineral lines, but the banshee's killed them too quickly. Should I bring my oracle home when I scout this for revelation? http://ggtracker.com/matches/6667964 Thanks guys. if you scout detected play by the Terran send your oracle home immediately. building another oracle can't hurt, but a 1 base banshee play will typically hit you while the oracle is out (it is also better to make a Phoenix to kill the banshee post revelation, stalkers or VR for mines). I wouldn't start the forge until after your 3 gates can begin to warp in units, but if you can scout that they are committing hard and making more than 1 banshee feel free to make an early forge and spam a few cannons | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
I've been going with an early forge in my PvT to try to get early +1/+3. As well as a cannon at each mineral line to protect from drops. A majority of my PvT games are either early aggression, or turtling. So I try to quickly get at least +1 so when the attack comes my adepts can deal with it. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
Been watching casts recently, and apparently Zealots are considered trash units in PvT now? I know the Adept has taken its place somewhat, but I can't help but feel Chargelots retain their place especially considering how well they function as meatshield/mineral dump units. There would even be comments on how a player is "forced into a zealot" early in the game. Is the zealot really that bad now, and what changed in LotV to make them so undesirable? Back in HotS I enjoyed using masses upon masses of chargelots in the lategame for run-bys and early game for tanking. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On June 07 2016 05:22 xAdra wrote: Hey there, I quit sc2 back in 2013, two months into HotS. Was a diamond Protoss. Just purchased LotV recently and am trying to get back in competitive shape right now. Been watching casts recently, and apparently Zealots are considered trash units in PvT now? I know the Adept has taken its place somewhat, but I can't help but feel Chargelots retain their place especially considering how well they function as meatshield/mineral dump units. There would even be comments on how a player is "forced into a zealot" early in the game. Is the zealot really that bad now, and what changed in LotV to make them so undesirable? Back in HotS I enjoyed using masses upon masses of chargelots in the lategame for run-bys and early game for tanking. As I understand it, it's not that zealots got worse, but rather that they always sucked. There just wasn't a better option to dump minerals on. Zealots probably aren't bad late game with legs, but still adepts are generally more useful. They have the same health, same armor, slightly less dps even against light units, but they're ranged which more than makes up for it. They can 2 shot all workers except SCV's, which they 3 shot. It was 2 shot but they nerfed it because being able to harass terran is OP, but harassing zerg/toss is fine. Adepts also come with shade, and their upgrade is really good as well. For only 25 gas more than a zealot, they're generally a better choice. That's not even just against terran, but zerg as well. I've even built them to help combat early zealot pressure. This is just my opinion based on what I've seen and played though. | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
On June 03 2016 08:19 Hyper1 wrote: I thought about bringing my oracle home but I wasn't sure how effective revelation would be, and I thought cannons would be enough to hold them off. I didn't expect them to be able to kill my cannon so quickly. I also thought of making another oracle, but I wasn't sure if it would have energy for revelation in time or not. I've been going with an early forge in my PvT to try to get early +1/+3. As well as a cannon at each mineral line to protect from drops. A majority of my PvT games are either early aggression, or turtling. So I try to quickly get at least +1 so when the attack comes my adepts can deal with it. I have no idea if what I do is right or not but it is what I do so here it is. When I open star gate and I scout a banshee build, I keep the oracle around there and DO NOT try to harass his mineral line. Basically I camp his starport to see when the banshee comes out. revelation it and try to kill it with my phoenix. Back at home building a robo and expanding again. Reasons being. He will not move across the map if he knows you can see the banshee. If he chooses to move then you just kill it. Keep his banshee at his base because then you don't need to have defense at your base. The other thing it helps with is for you to know if he keeps building banshees or stops at 1. If he keeps building them then you need to keep building phoenix (at least 4 or 5). Also usually with these openings, they have forgone power on the ground. You don't need to worry about a frontal attack and therefore can get away with taking an extremely early 3rd. The 3rd also helps to recover in the event. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16030 Posts
On June 07 2016 08:07 Hyper1 wrote: As I understand it, it's not that zealots got worse, but rather that they always sucked. There just wasn't a better option to dump minerals on. Zealots probably aren't bad late game with legs, but still adepts are generally more useful. They have the same health, same armor, slightly less dps even against light units, but they're ranged which more than makes up for it. They can 2 shot all workers except SCV's, which they 3 shot. It was 2 shot but they nerfed it because being able to harass terran is OP, but harassing zerg/toss is fine. Adepts also come with shade, and their upgrade is really good as well. For only 25 gas more than a zealot, they're generally a better choice. That's not even just against terran, but zerg as well. I've even built them to help combat early zealot pressure. This is just my opinion based on what I've seen and played though. in lategame I think zealots are still the better choice as adepts don't scale very well in the lategame. Also their are still players who use zealots midgame sometimes to complement their army, Zest is one of them. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
Also, as protoss, how do we deal with late game tech switches? I've run into it a few times where I'll wipe out his army easily, then he'll remax with an army comp that rolls over mine, and I can't rebuild fast enough to do anything about it. For the most part I'm fine because I got heavy stargate since the immortal nerf. However I lost a game because of a huge tech switch that I couldn't recover from. He was on ling muta, and I was phoenix adept. Both of us were maxed out. I destroyed his army, then he made 24 corruptors, turned 14 into brood lords, and wiped me out. I tried pumping out tempests and stalkers for defense at home, but couldn't build enough quickly enough to defend by the time they got to my base. We were on equal bases the entire game, had identical economies, and even watching afterward wasn't sure what the correct response would have been with such little time. Thanks for the help again all. | ||
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