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On April 30 2016 00:00 InTheCenter wrote:
In PvT, is it good to place 1 canon in the expo and in the main to be safe from the drop and have peace of mind? Is it efficient or I should just make some unit and let them in the base?
+ Should I bring my MSC with me in battle or let it in the base to defend from drop?!
Thank you!
Personally I can't find a place in my build orders to build the cannon early game. Unlike HoTS you're looking to take a third very early, that's 400 minerals you need to dump, also the lower mineral count means you're builds have to be much more precise with your builds. Assuming you opening something like with 2 base, 3 gates, robo, twilight, forge, 2xupgrades (say blink and +1). I can't see how you can afford a cannon let alone 2 cannons.
Late game I think it's worth have some cannons/HT to defend certain areas.
Re MSC - for me depends what I'm doing. If I'm doing a timing attack then I take it with me, or else I leave it to defend drops. The reason is, if I'm doing a timing attack I want as much dps and help as I can get. Also sometimes terrans try to base trade and doom drop you in response. You have the option of recalling to defend the drop.
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I've noticed that in the recent Dreamhack tournament, a lot of players were opening their pvz with a fast resonating glaives upgrade into stargate into a 3rd and double robo. how do y'all feel about it? I have liked the general opener of going stargate first, but i do feel that this play has been figured out by most zerg and is countered really hard with the fast hydra/lurker comp.
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1.How to defend proxy 4 rax while doing a 1 gate expand?
2. I saw a lot of players make msc very late in pvz, usually after the first tech building like stargate. What if zerg speedling drop rush or roach rush? Isn't it a build order loss?
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On May 11 2016 04:23 OPDream wrote:
1.How to defend proxy 4 rax while doing a 1 gate expand?
2. I saw a lot of players make msc very late in pvz, usually after the first tech building like stargate. What if zerg speedling drop rush or roach rush? Isn't it a build order loss?
1) msc + adept/stalker -> pylon wall the front. Overcharge + continue to chrono units, preferably stalkers. Sentries are needed after a while when the marine count gets too high. Continue adding gateways and making units. Continue to wall. The important part is you make a wall so the marines can't run past the overcharge and you don't have to kite for a bit. Pull probes if you have to. It's best to keep him on the other side of the ramp so you have the ability to completely prevent him from engaging with the PO once you get energy.
2) standard 3rd hatch at 2:20-2:40 depending on when they get their queens. If you don't see a third hatchery by about 2:50/3:00 you should get a msc asap and possibly chrono warp gate/units. There isn't much risk from a speedling drop because if you drop a stargate instantly when you have 150gas before a msc then your phoenix can kill the overlord pretty quickly and since they're so committed and the overlord is quite expensive for that stage in the game, you basically only have to do deal with a handful of lings. Fighting with probes and losing a few isn't a big deal at all and you should be way ahead if you micro properly. It's definitely risky vs other all ins though which is why you scout for the third timing.
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On May 11 2016 01:04 mentalmath wrote:
I've noticed that in the recent Dreamhack tournament, a lot of players were opening their pvz with a fast resonating glaives upgrade into stargate into a 3rd and double robo. how do y'all feel about it? I have liked the general opener of going stargate first, but i do feel that this play has been figured out by most zerg and is countered really hard with the fast hydra/lurker comp.
I used to use this style a lot. This style is supposed to counter hydra heavy compositions. Phoenix will harass and scout. If you see them taking shortcuts like rushing lurker, you put down a few gates and kill them.
I stopped using this style because zergs started going hydra -> roach -> lurker. The roach stops the potential of an adept timing attack and makes the upgrade a waste.
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1. how to counter broodlord, ultra, ling composition?
2. What is the standard PvP opening
3. When do you get a forge in PvP
4. Who is the best PvP player at the moment that i can observe to be as good as you guys
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On May 17 2016 10:50 ThreeLilpigs wrote:
1. how to counter broodlord, ultra, ling composition?
2. What is the standard PvP opening
3. When do you get a forge in PvP
4. Who is the best PvP player at the moment that i can observe to be as good as you guys
And it would be great to hear how viable are double forge builds and why. Thanks in advance
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On May 17 2016 10:50 ThreeLilpigs wrote:
1. how to counter broodlord, ultra, ling composition?
2. What is the standard PvP opening
3. When do you get a forge in PvP
4. Who is the best PvP player at the moment that i can observe to be as good as you guys
Watch neeb for all PvP needs. His series vs lilbow at dreamhack showed good openers. (On both sides for the most part)
Immortal Tempest Archon is my PvZ composition for dealing with hive tech. Essentially Immortal Archon beats everything on the ground, while tempest target fire the broodlords. If they add lots of corruptors you need storm.
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Hey guys, been away on the forums for a bit, found a website called CSNStarcraft that's helped me figure out a lot of little things in my game play. I had a few questions that I couldn't find answers to.
When do you scout for ninja bases? I watch pro replays and they never seen to scout for ninja bases, however I've lost a couple games today because they ninja expanded so when I scouted I got bad info. I thought it was a 2 base attack so I prepared for that, then on the replay saw the ninja. Also, against terran is stargate just required? I ran into a player who build all planetary fortresses, and if I attacked in to him, just repaired them. I understand they're not as good as pylon overcharge, but I pretty much lost because I couldn't push into him without just losing. He also turtled on 2 bases, and made 3 ninja expands all PF's. Even had I knows about them, without air, I'm not sure what I could have done about them without losing my entire army to it.
How do you scout a terran one base all in on Dusk Towers? I probe scouted after my gateway, but he walled off the ramp before my probe got there. I played standard, expanded after the gateway, and got destroyed by the army that came after me. The attack came before my observer made it to the terrans base, so I'm not sure what else to do.
How do you deal with oracle harass? I scouted it, and spread my stalkers across my 2 mineral lines, but his oracle was still able to kill a ton of probes before it died. I made as many stalkers as I could after scouting the stargate, but it still was only about 2 in each mineral line. Do I delay my tech to get out more stalkers?
I've heard the 'counter' to liberators are Tempests or blink stalkers, but even using them I'm still struggling. I tried going tempest to tickle them to death, but terran just pushed moved the siege line forward and killed me anyway. I've tried blink stalkers, but when I do blink under them, by the time I'm able to get all the liberators, my army is gone. I've tried to find replays of protoss dealing with liberators, but I can't find any video's that show them winning against more than 2 libs, and even then they seem to do it with amazing micro and still take heavy losses. I'm working on it, but my micro still isn't exactly masters level yet, so how do I deal with that in a high gold/low plat level without losing too much to a sieged army? My worry is that I'll have to micro so much against units that are just sitting there, that I'll lose in macro and it'll be fruitless anyway.
What's the correct way to deal with a hydra/lurker/overseer comp? I lost a couple of games today where I had the massively superior army, better econ, but my observers were sniped down and I got crushed. I've seen pro's deal with them with disruptor shows, and I know that 2 shots kills one. If I don't see them burrow, I can't figure out where they're at. I'm sure there's a way to know anyway, because I can see widow mines easily enough. I'm just not seeing it. So how do I spot them, and are there any options to deal with that comp other than disruptor? I'm really worried about going robo, getting disruptor, then losing to the max out on muta's if I win that battle.
Sorry for the long post, I just finished playing 12 hours and those were the common issues I ran into and couldn't figure out what to do. Overall I'm getting better, as long as my scouting information is correct anyway. Thanks for the help.
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How have you all been playing PVZ against Zergs who only 2 base, and then go full aggro: drops, ling rushes, ling runbys, nydus, roaches?
I haven't been able to deal damage back either. I holding the initial push, then sometimes get pushed again and start losing probes. Then attack with adepts... which don't seem to be that good anymore, as a lot of these players are rushing into roaches ,and then doing a 3 base attack off that.
Second: how the heck do you even stop a nydus ?? I had a stalker a MSC and a pylon targeting it down and it didnt go down.
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On May 17 2016 15:21 Hyper1 wrote:
What's the correct way to deal with a hydra/lurker/overseer comp? I lost a couple of games today where I had the massively superior army, better econ, but my observers were sniped down and I got crushed. I've seen pro's deal with them with disruptor shows, and I know that 2 shots kills one. If I don't see them burrow, I can't figure out where they're at. I'm sure there's a way to know anyway, because I can see widow mines easily enough. I'm just not seeing it. So how do I spot them, and are there any options to deal with that comp other than disruptor? I'm really worried about going robo, getting disruptor, then losing to the max out on muta's if I win that battle.
as a zerg I start laughing if the protoss brings his observers to the battle when lurkers are in my composition. on the other hand the oracle's "revelation"-spell (which reveals cloaked or burrowed units)... arrrrrghhh!
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There's a trick with observers that you can do. You can remove them from your control group and have them follow one of your immortals, instead of having them in the group a-moving. This will keep them away from Hydralisks while in range to detect lurkers that you can shoot at. Zerg players who are specifically trying to snipe the observer might still kill it, but in most cases the observer dies because it strays too far ahead and hydralisks who have nothing else in range will target it. If you follow an immortal, then a-moved hydralisks will always prioritize your ground units instead of the observer.
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On May 17 2016 15:21 Hyper1 wrote:
Hey guys, been away on the forums for a bit, found a website called CSNStarcraft that's helped me figure out a lot of little things in my game play. I had a few questions that I couldn't find answers to.
When do you scout for ninja bases? I watch pro replays and they never seen to scout for ninja bases, however I've lost a couple games today because they ninja expanded so when I scouted I got bad info. I thought it was a 2 base attack so I prepared for that, then on the replay saw the ninja. Also, against terran is stargate just required? I ran into a player who build all planetary fortresses, and if I attacked in to him, just repaired them. I understand they're not as good as pylon overcharge, but I pretty much lost because I couldn't push into him without just losing. He also turtled on 2 bases, and made 3 ninja expands all PF's. Even had I knows about them, without air, I'm not sure what I could have done about them without losing my entire army to it.
How do you scout a terran one base all in on Dusk Towers? I probe scouted after my gateway, but he walled off the ramp before my probe got there. I played standard, expanded after the gateway, and got destroyed by the army that came after me. The attack came before my observer made it to the terrans base, so I'm not sure what else to do.
How do you deal with oracle harass? I scouted it, and spread my stalkers across my 2 mineral lines, but his oracle was still able to kill a ton of probes before it died. I made as many stalkers as I could after scouting the stargate, but it still was only about 2 in each mineral line. Do I delay my tech to get out more stalkers?
I've heard the 'counter' to liberators are Tempests or blink stalkers, but even using them I'm still struggling. I tried going tempest to tickle them to death, but terran just pushed moved the siege line forward and killed me anyway. I've tried blink stalkers, but when I do blink under them, by the time I'm able to get all the liberators, my army is gone. I've tried to find replays of protoss dealing with liberators, but I can't find any video's that show them winning against more than 2 libs, and even then they seem to do it with amazing micro and still take heavy losses. I'm working on it, but my micro still isn't exactly masters level yet, so how do I deal with that in a high gold/low plat level without losing too much to a sieged army? My worry is that I'll have to micro so much against units that are just sitting there, that I'll lose in macro and it'll be fruitless anyway.
What's the correct way to deal with a hydra/lurker/overseer comp? I lost a couple of games today where I had the massively superior army, better econ, but my observers were sniped down and I got crushed. I've seen pro's deal with them with disruptor shows, and I know that 2 shots kills one. If I don't see them burrow, I can't figure out where they're at. I'm sure there's a way to know anyway, because I can see widow mines easily enough. I'm just not seeing it. So how do I spot them, and are there any options to deal with that comp other than disruptor? I'm really worried about going robo, getting disruptor, then losing to the max out on muta's if I win that battle.
Sorry for the long post, I just finished playing 12 hours and those were the common issues I ran into and couldn't figure out what to do. Overall I'm getting better, as long as my scouting information is correct anyway. Thanks for the help.
1) as for ninja bases, they happen quite a large amount less in the higher leagues unless the situation is dire and it is proving very difficult to expand. the itch to scout a ninja expo should come from the apparent lack of something there. Assuming you both play with similar macro and they have much less cards to show, then something might be up.
2) when a terran walls off their main (and backdoor on dusk) you have to resort to using an obs/WP/oracle/Phoenix/hallucination to see what is going down. If none of those are possible and you still suspect pressure, just make sure that your building placement is tight (imagine it acting as a giant FF, so that marines cant kite u all day), you have some form of detect, and have overcharges and stalker/sentries handy. stalkers and sentries do great in the early game when it comes to this sort of play and you can transition into blink nicely.
3) oracle harass is tough. my current opener revolves around rushing into phoenix tech and getting an obs asap if i scout DT play. the early phoenix will shut down oracle play so unbelievably hard and will give you a big advantage going into the midgame. it is a very tough style to pull off and i am currently getting wrecked by proxy gate/robo play, but once my micro and scouting improve it will prove to hold up a little better. I usually scout after throwing down a 16 gate to see if there is double gate before core play, in which case ill pump out an MSC and a stalker or 2 before making my phoenixes.
4) in small numbers, blink does great against libs which is why blink openers are commonplace in pvt. i typically try to get to storm/tempest as soon as i can. pop a revelation on the libs, and tickle with your tempest mass, then when the vikings and/or bio get close to snipe your tempests, hit em with a storm, once you get this down libs will be much easier to play against.
5) although the PVZ meta is evolving and zergs are beginning to figure out how to beat our PICA build (phoenix/immo/chargelot/archon), it is still the most handy comp towards handling any annoyances provided by the zerg. the advice mentioned above is really nice in handling this comp. revelation is your best friend, and the obs follow trick on an immortal sounds so legit (have yet to use it), the immortals and archons will plow through the lurkers with minimal damage take, and the hydras simply cannot keep up with the army once lurker support is gone. if you choose to go disruptor, and you lose detection, it will simply take a great eye unfortunately. notice where the spines are coming from. the radius on the disruptor shot is good enough to hit em and force the Z to unseige. in light of corruptors and potential BLs, tempests/storm are your best friend. a revelation and tickling will force them to attack you, and storm will murder hydras and force back corruptors.
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On May 17 2016 21:02 TokO wrote:
There's a trick with observers that you can do. You can remove them from your control group and have them follow one of your immortals, instead of having them in the group a-moving. This will keep them away from Hydralisks while in range to detect lurkers that you can shoot at. Zerg players who are specifically trying to snipe the observer might still kill it, but in most cases the observer dies because it strays too far ahead and hydralisks who have nothing else in range will target it. If you follow an immortal, then a-moved hydralisks will always prioritize your ground units instead of the observer.
I really don't understand how players lose their observers so often, making it follow a unit is often worse because if it dies you keep fighting without realizing your observer is lagging behind and end up having your army running on top of thelurkers, i had a friend losing a game that way.
With chargelot-archon-immo i keep my observer in my army control group and when i attack the chargelots force the hydra to kite so they can't reach the obs anyway.
If your chargelots are dead theres nothing else to micro than pulling the obs back if its going to far or if the hydras look like they could go for it (sometimes you get some free shots from your immos on the hydras because of it)
You really shouldn't lose obs with that composition although it might be harder when you're defending.
As for disruptors and lurkers burrowed you generally just poke to see where the attack comes from and throw balls there without the need of detection anyway, its hard to miss really.
Being scared of muta switches is what makes most pros open stargate/double stargate in PvZ, so you can do this to avoid being surprised by it later on.
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On May 17 2016 15:21 Hyper1 wrote:
Also, against terran is stargate just required?
i am trying my hardest to open stargate in pvt, i love oracles and an early oracle can be a game winner in pvt, phoenix do so well for map control/drop denial/tank pickup, a single void will absolutely deny an early lib from harassing you. competant terran still own me when i use this style so i would definitely try it to your own discretion. in the lategame, you need tempest and storm to deal with libs
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Thanks for all the great info! As far as the observer issue, I actually always have my observer following my army because I lose it if I ever add it to the control group. Zerg just keep sniping it off. I could try going oracle to reveal them, I just normally don't go stargate much because it seems to be very micro intensive and mine isn't that great yet. Which is the same issue I face using disruptors with them, I'm still working on micro control, plus if I didn't see them burrow, I can't figure out where they are by just the spines yet.
As far as recognizing by his comp if he's only 2 base or not, I've been able to tell sometimes when he seems just too strong, but it's when he's turtling massively is when it catches me off guard. So is it just game sense to know when he's doing it? If so, while I'm getting that game sense, when is a good time to scout for a ninja expand so I know if I should prepare for a 2 base push or not? Should I send a probe, or like a zealot out to scout them?
As far as scouting terran on Dusk Tower who fully wall off, I build a robo and pumped out an observer first and sent it straight to his base, but the attack hit before I it got there, and I had already expanded and couldn't deal with the army. When you say to build my buildings tight, do you mean like close to my nexus, or like around my ramp like I would against zerg?
Against Oracle, I can rush to phoenix's, but I'm still not very good at them, and not completely sure how to use them effectively. Is there a video guide for them? I checked but can't seem to find one. Are there any other good ways to deal with oracle harass, or do I just need to open stargate every game just in case?
As far as the liberator play, are tempest still good even if they're not going mass liberator? If not, how do I scout for it other than just finding the liberators?
I have noticed a trend, is the 'go-to' build against zerg and terran phoenix/blink stalker into tempest/storm? If so does anyone have a good build order for it? Thank you all again for all the help, I'll try to incorporate it more, but it will take some adjusting as I need to get my micro a lot better for most of the tips here.
Update: I took my first crack at HT/Tempest play and it worked great. When he attacked I stormed, when he ran tempest bombarded him from a distance. Even before that it went great. He doom dropped me, and between PO, my army coming from the other side, and just a couple phoenix picking him off on the retreat, I crushed him. I really appreciate the help!
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If you incorporate some sentries into your play, you can very often send out hallucinated phoenixes and that's kinda how you stay informed. For the observer thing, if you get to maxed out compositions it's not unusual to have several observers in your army, as well as a couple spread out around the map that you can just grab in a pinch.
Not sure about your other questions.
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how will protoss counter lurkers if immortal nerf pass?
any tip/idea?
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Please help me.
I'm in a state of total angry because of pvz.
I simply can't go over 4 min mark. I loose almost every game to ling drops, speedlings, busts, this is getting me frustrated at max level.
here some replays, they are all the same.
http://drop.sc/replay/2898081
http://drop.sc/replay/2898080
I manage to scout early aggression too, still i cannot defend from lings of bust off 1 gate expand. If I go 2 gate expand, they do lings, kill my adepts, and i fall back in eco for late expansion and tech. What should I do? pvz is the only problematic matchup for me, where i do not see any way to improve...
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On May 18 2016 16:07 Weltall wrote:
how will protoss counter lurkers if immortal nerf pass?
any tip/idea?
I don't think the immortal nerf is going to be thaaaaaat huge for dealing with lurkers. Most of the time the barrier runs out before absorbing the damage anyway. Immortals still coupled with chargelots and archons should still be fine.
Immortals versus hydras might be weaker though.
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EPT
