On June 08 2016 04:59 Hyper1 wrote: Does anyone have a good build for a PvZ double gateway opening? I've been trying to send out double adept for early pressure and scouting, but I'm really just winging it the whole time. I checked Spawning Tool but couldn't find it. The closest I found all have nexus first openings, like 17 expand then double gateway behind it. Do those builds allow you to get units out early enough to hold early ling pushes?
I worked with a 2gate PvZ for a while. I would do a opening identical to 2gate PvP, first three pylons in main, nexus after 4 stalkers and 4th pylons for the natural wall. My justification for stalkers is that they can kill overlords and kite slowlings forever. Bring MsC for recall when things get sticky. From there you could aim to do a 5:15 adept push with around 10 adepts, or you could try some other things. I experimented a bit with stalker sentry, but it ended up not working out too well. After any follow up aggression you just go into immortals and counter as appropriately, get 3rd, upgrades, a bunch of gates.
If your stalker micro is decent you can do a lot of dmg to low-mid diamonds who skips speed. You can force a decent amount of lings, and there's a possibility of the zerg doing an all-in. I think doing well relies on you outskilling your opponent from the 'chaotic' situation that you create with your early aggression.
EDIT: Some replays that might be something you could aim for. (Although I lose both games eventually)
On the discussion about Zealots, from a Terran Player's perspective Zealots are great in a straight up fight which you almost never see in this matchup anymore. The main reasons to use Adepts / Blink Stalkers instead of Zealots is because of their ability to effectively be in two places at once, which makes it difficult to be aggressive or even just defend in the early-mid game, and then their ability to navigate around liberators in mid-late game and defend tempests without getting pulled too far away from them. Zealots just aren't as threatening in early-mid game and then get wrecked by liberators in mid-late game. I think they're still quite useful as a mineral dump for runbyes out of a warp prism, or adding in a couple as a meat shield, but that's about it.
I'm a bronzie noob, and I played this game with a friend of mine on Dasan Station to check out the map, it turned out to be a pretty back and forth game (probably the best I have ever played) and it ended up with me losing. Regardless to say, PvP is my worse map up, our composition was pretty familiar, except for me not taking the 6th base, I'm not quite sure what else could I have been doing better
On June 09 2016 06:47 NinjaToss wrote: I'm a bronzie noob, and I played this game with a friend of mine on Dasan Station to check out the map, it turned out to be a pretty back and forth game (probably the best I have ever played) and it ended up with me losing. Regardless to say, PvP is my worse map up, our composition was pretty familiar, except for me not taking the 6th base, I'm not quite sure what else could I have been doing better
Hi, I watched that entire game, and there were a lot of points where you could have just won the game. There's a lot of little things that would have really helped, like dropping your pylon on time, expanding earlier... but I'll just touch on some of the bigger things for now. Scouting, you need to do it. Quite literally had you scouted more, this would have been a drastically different game. You never knew how many bases he was on, didn't know his tech paths, army locations, or army composition until after he attacked. Your spending was great, but you spent WAY too much on production facilities and not nearly enough on making units from them. At one point you were on 4 stargates, 3 robo's, and 11 gateways, but weren't making more than 3 units at a time.
You also need to be A LOT more aggressive. Had you scouted even to just know he had bases and where they were, you could have very easily sent a DT or two to nearly all of his bases, crippled his economy, and possibly even taken his bases out entirely if he didn't respond correctly. He had no observers when you first started getting DT's, and then he only had one for most of the game. He could have only defended at one place at a time, and you could have effectively won right there.
Very few of the engagements went in your favor, mostly do to pushing in when you shouldn't. When he attacked you through the choke point in the middle, you shouldn't have tried pushing back, but rather set up a concave to eat his army as he walks through. Had you scouted his army comp, you would have also noticed that for a large part of the game, he had nearly no units that could shoot up. It was mostly a combination of zealot, immortal, DT, colossus, and at most 9 stalkers. Had you massed void rays from your 4 stargates, in second you would have eaten his entire army. When he attacked your base on the west, I think it was your 4th maybe. It was mined out, and his army had destroyed it all, and you pushed into his army through a choke point. You should have just let it go. You couldn't save it, and couldn't engage against his army.
Sentries would have made a huge difference at many times during that game. Being able to cut his army in half would have allowed yours to easily eat the rest. Disruptors would have also destroyed massive amounts of his army in each volley. After your cybernetics core was destroyed, you build 2 right next to each other, but had researched all but one upgrade from it already, making the second one completely worthless.
What's the goal army composition in pvt? Mine is ht, tempest, immortal, archon, and some gateway units. But I am not sure if I should get disruptors or colossus once T has ghosts. My question is how do you counter ghost nowadays?
Pertaining to zealots, they aren't used in the early to early mid-game anymore because without charge they have to be on top of the unit in order to do damage. On the other hand, an adept to take it's place can still act as a tanking unit (just like the zealot) but it also can deal damage (due to it's ranged attack). Adepts fall off in the late game however, because they only do bonus damage vs. light whereas zealots always do 16 damage (without weapons upgrades).
On June 11 2016 03:50 OPDream wrote: What's the goal army composition in pvt? Mine is ht, tempest, immortal, archon, and some gateway units. But I am not sure if I should get disruptors or colossus once T has ghosts. My question is how do you counter ghost nowadays?
disruptors are the best counter to ghosts but quite hard to control in combination with tempests and hts so you can skip them and instead just spread your templar so they don't get hit all by emp. tempest + revalation can snipe ghosts from a distance. Generally in pvt lategame the easiest answer to most things is build more tempests.
On June 12 2016 01:20 OPDream wrote: After Protoss has ht tech in pvt, do you transition to zealot archon immortal composition or stay on adept stalker immortal composition?
It really depends on their army comp, at least for me. In general my end game tech ends up being HT/Tempest. I pretty much never use immortals later in the game against terran, I generally don't side toward archons because of the short range of their attacks. Zealots I rarely use because I face a lot of tank/liberator play and my zealots just melt charging into that. To fill my army I go adept if they have a heavy ground army, and stalker if they have a stronger flying army to protect my Tempests. It's been working pretty well for me.
Seriously, WTF? I just faced a diamond player somehow, who did a proxy Thor rush. I scouted for a proxy but he didn't put the proxy down unit after my probe scouted. It was Dusk Towers and he completely walled off before I got there so I couldn't scout that it was a one base play. Plus I've never seen a Thor rush. I didn't even know you could have Thors at your base at the 4 min mark. What was I supposed to do to hold that push? He was attacking with T3 units before warp gate was even done. I wasn't playing exceptionally greedy, I did a standard gateway expand. Droped another Gate and stargate and went to take my third as I've seen protoss trying to take an early third lately against terran. Unless I completely change my build to open preparing for a Thor push, and leaving me vulnerable to basically everything else terran can do early game, I'm not sure what else I can do. I feel there should be a way to hold this, but I'm just not seeing it. Thanks for the help.
On June 12 2016 03:06 Hyper1 wrote: Seriously, WTF? I just faced a diamond player somehow, who did a proxy Thor rush. I scouted for a proxy but he didn't put the proxy down unit after my probe scouted. It was Dusk Towers and he completely walled off before I got there so I couldn't scout that it was a one base play. Plus I've never seen a Thor rush. I didn't even know you could have Thors at your base at the 4 min mark. What was I supposed to do to hold that push? He was attacking with T3 units before warp gate was even done. I wasn't playing exceptionally greedy, I did a standard gateway expand. Droped another Gate and stargate and went to take my third as I've seen protoss trying to take an early third lately against terran. Unless I completely change my build to open preparing for a Thor push, and leaving me vulnerable to basically everything else terran can do early game, I'm not sure what else I can do. I feel there should be a way to hold this, but I'm just not seeing it. Thanks for the help.
At the start you stop making probes, no no, you keep making probes and build a gateway and gas in between when you get the minerals.
You make the second pylon before the cybercore, that doesn't exist in any build, you get expo, core then pylon and gas. You don't make a second gate before teching, unless you scout a proxy rax or something, you make adept, research, mothership then robo/stargate (I recommend robo, it's easier).
After you see no reaper, you can send the first adept scouting, you would have seen the armory, and you should have had a robo, thus making immortals.
That push was still bad you could have easily held if you didn't sac the first 3 adepts and pulled all the probes in your main.
Hey guys before i start with a question i would like to thank everyone i just got promoted so you guys were great with the tips and stuff but as we all know the grind never ends.
For PvT i open with the standard gate expand. i would just like to ask for your consensus what do you guys follow up with DT opening, Blink stalkers, or attack speed for adept. i personally go dts but i find it to risky when Terran gets liberators and i dont have ample amount of stalkers for defense. If i go for blink i might lose the harass potential. Lastly i noticed that i only harass in the early stages of the game but tend to fall back and turtle. what are the other ways to harass mid game when they have turrets all over the place.
For PvZ would you guys happen to have a link on how to sim city in maps. also how many gates do you get in early game
For PvP when do you attack and whats the best response to gas steal
best strategy in PVP is to open with a couple of stalkers so u can defends adeptsand oracles, and get a fast stargate and pump out fenix, when u have 5 or 6 stop fenix production and go charge inmortal, then at the 8 or 9 minutes drop a templar archvies and make as many archos as possible and atack, when atacking lift inmortal and sentrys and distruptors with fenix and let the charge zelots and archos do their job .... dont need armor or wepons upgrades, ive won with 0/0 upgrades against 2/2 easily
On June 13 2016 09:45 ThreeLilpigs wrote: Hey guys before i start with a question i would like to thank everyone i just got promoted so you guys were great with the tips and stuff but as we all know the grind never ends.
For PvT i open with the standard gate expand. i would just like to ask for your consensus what do you guys follow up with DT opening, Blink stalkers, or attack speed for adept. i personally go dts but i find it to risky when Terran gets liberators and i dont have ample amount of stalkers for defense. If i go for blink i might lose the harass potential. Lastly i noticed that i only harass in the early stages of the game but tend to fall back and turtle. what are the other ways to harass mid game when they have turrets all over the place.
For PvZ would you guys happen to have a link on how to sim city in maps. also how many gates do you get in early game
For PvP when do you attack and whats the best response to gas steal
PvT midgame harass is about finding a sweet spot between the turrets to fly in. If there is no place to fly in there is no need to harass. (Making so many missle turrets is a big investment.)
PvP: Attack when you have some advantage that you can use to win the game (more upgrades, better composition, bigger army). Don't let your opponent to steal both your gasses. If that happens you lost. If one of your gasses got stolen you might want to invest into a zealot to kill the geyser faster. Otherwise play safe since you are behind in either units or tech cause you had less gas.
is it too soon to update the original post? I know the meta is still changing but I think we collectively have a pretty centralized game plan for all three MUs at this point.
On June 18 2016 08:16 mentalmath wrote: is it too soon to update the original post? I know the meta is still changing but I think we collectively have a pretty centralized game plan for all three MUs at this point.
The problem is we currently have none on staff with the time/commitment to maintain the OP. It's actually a lot of work.
Gold player here, need some help PvZ. For starters, I'm terrible with disruptors. Really, really bad with them. If I micro them I forget to macro so I'm wondering just how bad colossi are? I know they got nerfed from HOTS, but they would still be a dps upgrade from gate units right?
And at what point should I take my third? I don't think this happens at pro level, but at my level a very common thing is for zergs to go all-in roach/ravager on 2 bases. Even if I'm building specifically for that build it's still hard to stop. I usually open gate/cyber/expand/stargate and use a couple phoenixs for scouting and harass. Once I see the zerg go for his third base I usually take mine also, but I have trouble holding it.
On June 13 2016 23:22 public_entity wrote: best strategy in PVP is to open with a couple of stalkers so u can defends adeptsand oracles, and get a fast stargate and pump out fenix, when u have 5 or 6 stop fenix production and go charge inmortal, then at the 8 or 9 minutes drop a templar archvies and make as many archos as possible and atack, when atacking lift inmortal and sentrys and distruptors with fenix and let the charge zelots and archos do their job .... dont need armor or wepons upgrades, ive won with 0/0 upgrades against 2/2 easily
This is misleading. Upgrades are always super useful in a mirror match, especially in an army composition that doesn't rely on Disruptors or Colossi. With that being said. You don't need get upgrades to make it work, but don't think they are bad.
On June 22 2016 07:19 HeyJude wrote: Gold player here, need some help PvZ. For starters, I'm terrible with disruptors. Really, really bad with them. If I micro them I forget to macro so I'm wondering just how bad colossi are? I know they got nerfed from HOTS, but they would still be a dps upgrade from gate units right?
And at what point should I take my third? I don't think this happens at pro level, but at my level a very common thing is for zergs to go all-in roach/ravager on 2 bases. Even if I'm building specifically for that build it's still hard to stop. I usually open gate/cyber/expand/stargate and use a couple phoenixs for scouting and harass. Once I see the zerg go for his third base I usually take mine also, but I have trouble holding it.
Yes, you can go Colossus. You should be pretty safe, versus everything Zerg can throw at you with double robo and 5+ Phoenixes. Then it just comes down to making the right units to counter his. Try to not get too much AoE though. i.e 4 Disruptors / 4 HTs / 4 Colossus are all you need AoE wise. After that, your Hts are better used to make Archons and the Robo to make Immortals
Here are some units to get depending on what Zerg has:
Sentires (Forcefield)/Colossus/HTs (Storm)/Archons vs Banelings Phoenix/Chargelots/Blink Stalkers vs Ravagers Immortals/Sentries(Forcefield)/Disruptor vs Roach Immortal/Chargelots/Oracle (Revelation) vs Lurkers Colossus/HTs (Storm)/Chargelots/Disruptors vs Hydras Phoenix/ Blink Stalkers vs Mutas Tempest/Void Ray/Oracle (Revelation) vs Broodlord/Corruptor Void Ray/Immortal vs Ultras HTs (Feedback) vs Infestors or Vipers
EPT
