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[G] SC2 Notes: 3-Base Blink Attack PvZ - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-10 16:50:20
July 10 2014 16:49 GMT
#21
--- Nuked ---
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
July 10 2014 19:01 GMT
#22
If u ever played Nony's recall build, you will notice that MSC has enough energy for 2nd recall around 9 min. Also, blindly move out with few sentries and no recall available? Good luck with that, zergs only need to make some speedlings and thank for your donations. Luckiest scenario, you can move out and take watch tower, but do u think there is a zerg can spread creap to watch tower before 10 min, even scarlett cannotXD. So there is no such things called "the whole map is my backyard, I can 'shark' around whenever I want".
The core idea of recall strat works like this"protoss move out with some units and MSC with recall available, zerg better be ready, cus if you don't have enough, I will kill you". Simply forcing some units from zerg is good but not good enough.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12248 Posts
July 10 2014 19:09 GMT
#23
On July 11 2014 01:34 OPDream wrote:
An ancient build. Also there is not enough pressure on Zerg in the early game. Would be a much better build if Nony's TRIPLE recall strat can be used in this BO.


This build is probably the last to be developed in hots, after the stargate/fast third builds that go into either colo or void ray/templar. It really isn't "ancient", and in fact Classic used it to great effect in the last GSL finals for example...
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
July 10 2014 19:29 GMT
#24
Actually the oracle into 3rd base strat is used by pro players many months ago. The oracle>3rd>blink is kinda new because cjhero popularizes this build.San actually used it last year, I think I can even find it in his stream vods.
Besides that, the build in OP is not stargate into fast 3rd. It is some kind of gateway units into 3rd with a little pressure with MSC recall ability. It's kinda similar to the WOL FFE 4gate pressure while taking 3rd base and teching to blink and +2 attack.
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
July 10 2014 20:19 GMT
#25
--- Nuked ---
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
July 10 2014 22:22 GMT
#26
This is what u said "People used to "shark" around the map in PvZ all the time and they didn't even have Recall available to them". If you didn't try to imply it's ok to walk around the map with few units and without recall available, forgive me for misunderstanding.
Like I said, there is no "WHENEVER". Nony's recall build can move out after first recall immediately because 1. first recall happens around 8 min, it's close enough to 9min to move out again safely. 2. he constantly makes units from gates, which means he has enough units to make sure he is safe on the map, and is able to do a lot of damage if zerg don't have enough.That's why his timings are powerful.
If you are good enough, you can notice pros only move out to do a TIMING attack. It's quite clearly why they don't blindly move out besides some obvious reasons like it's risky, they don't wanna waste msc's energy for some potential small damage (clearing creep), they aim for bigger damage.
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-10 22:25:24
July 10 2014 22:25 GMT
#27
--- Nuked ---
Xinzoe
Profile Joined January 2014
Korea (South)2373 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-10 22:37:44
July 10 2014 22:31 GMT
#28
Well I think the reason players dont do recall pokes is because they are afraid they can't hold the counterattack after forcing so many units out of Zerg. I've seen Zergs continue to build units after seeing seeing the toss recall and just crush the third with pure roach ling. And with the current map pool, the third and natural is pretty far like in Catellena and Merry Go Round so it is completely understandable.

And also the build mentions that you take third at 8:30. Most Zergs that opened gasless should be saturated or close to saturated on 3 bases so technically u arent really "forcing" units besides the fact that they probably wanted to spend the gas on hydras or mutas instead. But its not like u forced useless units. Roach ling compliments hydras very well, with mutas u can do double prong attacks which is a headache for most toss players that didnt open phoenix
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
July 10 2014 22:41 GMT
#29
Ofc you can make soooooo many sentries if you wanna tech up until 20 min
I think I said quite clearly, they save msc energy to use for a good timing attack.
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-10 22:47:46
July 10 2014 22:47 GMT
#30
--- Nuked ---
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12248 Posts
July 10 2014 22:57 GMT
#31
More importantly it worked because zergs were fucking bad at scouting and reacting, taking a third at a decent time, droning, making units, spreading creep, attacking before the 20 minute mark....
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
SatedSC2
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
England3012 Posts
July 10 2014 22:58 GMT
#32
--- Nuked ---
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12248 Posts
July 10 2014 23:12 GMT
#33
Yeah but imo zergs were particularly bad.

"Muaaah my roach/hydra midgame army can't win against colossus/void ray, muaaaah"
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-10 23:20:42
July 10 2014 23:18 GMT
#34
On July 11 2014 07:31 Xinzoe wrote:
Well I think the reason players dont do recall pokes is because they are afraid they can't hold the counterattack after forcing so many units out of Zerg. I've seen Zergs continue to build units after seeing seeing the toss recall and just crush the third with pure roach ling. And with the current map pool, the third and natural is pretty far like in Catellena and Merry Go Round so it is completely understandable.

And also the build mentions that you take third at 8:30. Most Zergs that opened gasless should be saturated or close to saturated on 3 bases so technically u arent really "forcing" units besides the fact that they probably wanted to spend the gas on hydras or mutas instead. But its not like u forced useless units. Roach ling compliments hydras very well, with mutas u can do double prong attacks which is a headache for most toss players that didnt open phoenix


Well, technically the poke hits at around 7:00-7:30, which IS before saturation. It technically hits with 4 warp gates, so you still have the potential to do damage, especially if the Zerg decided to open gasless.

I honestly think the big difference between this sort of build and the more "Korean" builds that open up stargate and play very passively are that this one is a lot more focused on gateways and gateway units. The scary part of holding the counterattacks is not that you won't have enough units to handle a massive flood of units, but that you won't be able to handle a massive flood of *good* units. That is, if you don't do enough damage or juke your opponent well enough, you'll just straight up die to maxed out roaches or hydra/ling or something of that nature. More often than not, lings are pretty manageable with this build, especially since you're getting such an early +1.

EDIT: Also, time warp is just a really good spell. I think OPDream is correct in saying that it's probably better to save your MSC energy for double time warp for a timing over constant recalls simply because it's such an amazing spell.

That said, it's likely the reason we don't see these types of plays in professional play and especially in Korean play is that it just doesn't do enough damage, directly or indirectly, to make up for the fact that you have no stargate and your robo tech is quite heavily delayed.

Still, for most ladder purposes, I think this is still a great build that allows players to deviate from the more "standard" passive play and play a more aggressive style while still maintaining a clean, solid macro build without any real gimmicks.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
OPDream
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada77 Posts
July 10 2014 23:30 GMT
#35
Lol okay bro, if u r talking about the very beginning of wol. Take ez
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