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Top diamond : 3 times : 3 loss.
• Protoss always scout the incoming hellions
• They build 2 cannons per base instantly + stalker + msc and they're safe very very quickly (before 7 min with expand)
• Even if I kill 33% of this probes, I stay behind because it's one base vs 2 fast nexus
Oracles are easy to defend with fast viking but it means you have less medivacs to be agressive.
Basically once there is two cannons per mineral lines it's fucked, you have to micro really hard to focus fire your drop (otherwise they shoot cannons / nexus), avoid losing drops to stalker & mothership core, find holes in defense, etc… While he's just camping at home, doing whatever he wants. and defending two mineral lines with a few stalker & cannons & msc.
I don't see how this style is viable at all.
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Thank you for this great effort Meavis! I've been looking for some other options that were exciting for quite some time. The more "slow" mech style isn't really me and I get impatient. Looking forward to these replays!
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Nice. This is the style of play I've been using for a long time, glad to see someone put up a guide on it 
Hellion based mech vs P is so much fun, hope others feel inspired to try it. It adds a lot of beauty to the "stagnant" matchup of TvP.
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As of now the replay links don't work. Is the site just down temporarily?
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How you deal with the zealot stalker MSC early push? It strikes at the moment you pop out the 1st 2 hellions out of your reactor factory. I just lost a game to it.
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if you get your first hellions in time you should scout it with a slight ammount of time to react, it can be shut down rather easily but delays your aggresion a bit, simply wait for the zealot and stalker to walk up the ramp and then give them an SCV hug by mineral walking and then surrounding, hellions should focus zealot first as it kills scvs pretty fast.
to deal with the mscore simply make a viking.
replays are probs down temporary, as for new replays it might take a while because MMR decay keeps giving walkovers and I don't have a whole lot of time to play games.
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I don't see why you insist so much on starting off with reactor Hellion over reactor Widow Mine. I'll start from an assumption: we're going to focus our TvP around armory-upgraded units aka mech and the merits of bio are not important for the rest of the discussion. Our goal is to win games with these mech units.
I agree that the guiding opening to mech is gas first fast reactor factory. Now instead of just jumping straight to hellion, let's consider the range of options: 2xHellion-Hellion, or 2xWidow Mine-Widow Mine, or Hellion-Hellion then Widow Mine-Widow Mine, or Widow Mine-Widow Mine then Hellion-Hellion, or 2x Hellion-Widow Mine or any other combination of.
Building 4 Hellion has potential for tons of econ damage, and can punish greedy Protoss builds with lots of probe cook, I agree. But we're looking to either win or get the maximum amount of the situation, I can see numerous reasons to utilize Widow Mines just as early. Snagging the first couple stalker or zealot out of their gateways can scare early protoss aggression significantly while driving the Protoss towards detection. That could provide a window to expand more aggressively, or hide and set up a surprise timing attack. With a combination of Hellion and Widow Mines, it's possible to eat stalker/MSC shots or kite zealots with Hellion for Widow Mines to burrow in more aggressive positions. Lastly, 2 Widow Mine shots will kill a MSC to prevent a Nexus Overcharge or MSC aggression or even be positioned on probes before Nexus Overcharge and deal economic damage anyway.
I think a more calculated approach on map, map position, general gameplan as Terran in TvP, and scouting of the enemy Protoss should determine the first units out of a factory, rather than a dead-set focus on Hellion.
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late depot to start with, your first geyser was pretty damn late at 12, your scv production was inconsistant, you built an ebay for no reason leading to inconsistant hellion production, and after that you just throw away your first 2 hellions.
what I said earlier can deal with this super easily.
don't expect to start winning games right of the bat when you're completely unfamiliar with the build.
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On July 20 2014 06:36 WrathSCII wrote:
How you deal with the zealot stalker MSC early push? It strikes at the moment you pop out the 1st 2 hellions out of your reactor factory. I just lost a game to it.
If it's a 2 player map, you have to consider putting your depots at the ramp. This way, if he's doing that push, you can delay him by repairing the wall with SCVs (pull lots and pull back the hurt ones, or sacrifice some is fine too if your micro is not that good) until your 2 WMs come out. Then just burrow them at the ramp so he can't run up except maybe his MSC, but you can repair to deal with that damage with 3SCVs while getting more WMs out and marines.
Or consider scouting early enough to be able to see such push and just rush WMs or wall off, etc.
Usually, against a random opponent, it seems more worth it than not to bet on him not doing a push like that and not walling of you ramp (which allows you to get hellions out slightly faster). But if you want to play 100% safe you will have to do one of the two things I mentioned.
Your first two hellions will be killing all his probes at home so you will be at an advantage, or even 4 hellions if his push is late.
On July 19 2014 22:05 pimsc2 wrote:
Top diamond : 3 times : 3 loss.
• Protoss always scout the incoming hellions
• They build 2 cannons per base instantly + stalker + msc and they're safe very very quickly (before 7 min with expand)
• Even if I kill 33% of this probes, I stay behind because it's one base vs 2 fast nexus
Oracles are easy to defend with fast viking but it means you have less medivacs to be agressive.
Basically once there is two cannons per mineral lines it's fucked, you have to micro really hard to focus fire your drop (otherwise they shoot cannons / nexus), avoid losing drops to stalker & mothership core, find holes in defense, etc… While he's just camping at home, doing whatever he wants. and defending two mineral lines with a few stalker & cannons & msc.
I don't see how this style is viable at all.
If he's investing 600 minerals and not 300 minerals into canons (extra 150 if you include forge) then just say "you can have your defense, I'm going to make another Orbital so that your canons are completely wasted". You don't have to kill probes, just save the hellions for harass or map control later, or save them for a 2 base hellbat tank push (to deny his third so you will eventually have more econ even if you have a later 3rd base, or possibly even kill him) since he just delayed himself 750 minerals.
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The replays in the OP are still broken. Can somebody post some reps of them trying this out? The OP was great and gives me a good idea but I'd love to see it in action. Thanks!
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Ok it makes sense now. This cannot be stressed enough: BE AGGRESSIVE with your HELLIONS.
The First 2 Hellions should immediately head towards the Protoss base. The next 2 join them. If your harass is denied keep attempting damage, try running by, try droping them and running by, just keep the aggression up.
KEEP roasting and flaming those tasty probes.
If it gets to the late game you can always use hellions to reach unprotected bases when the protoss is out of position and transform them into hellbats.. Blue Flame Hellbats will kill Nexi pretty fast.
This style is fun to play.
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On July 22 2014 15:54 Slashiepie wrote:
Ok it makes sense now. This cannot be stressed enough: BE AGGRESSIVE with your HELLIONS.
The First 2 Hellions should immediately head towards the Protoss base. The next 2 join them. If your harass is denied keep attempting damage, try running by, try droping them and running by, just keep the aggression up.
KEEP roasting and flaming those tasty probes.
If it gets to the late game you can always use hellions to reach unprotected bases when the protoss is out of position and transform them into hellbats.. Blue Flame Hellbats will kill Nexi pretty fast.
This style is fun to play.
while you want to be very aggressive, I found there to be a single exception and that is going straight for damage with the first 2 hellions, more often than not protoss will have produced enough to deal with 2 as you had to tech up to factory, but with the production capability's of your reactored factory you will catch up fast.
most of the time the first 2 hellions won't trade super effectively, but can give you lots of intel thank to their mobility, when you reach 4 hellions you can lose one and still 1 hit probes, making it far better than sending them in pairs of 2.
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I have found that a super early Thor against an all in 1 base play from protoss can be extremely difficult for them to deal with. They suck late game though.
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How do you guys all open up? 1/1/1?
I'm lookong for a stable, scouting based opener with a fast transition to mech. Gonna try that shot out :D!
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On July 23 2014 17:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
How do you guys all open up? 1/1/1?
I'm lookong for a stable, scouting based opener with a fast transition to mech. Gonna try that shot out :D!
I do a reaper opener with WM drop while expanding if they get stalker and/or MSC before expand.
switch up factory with rax and start a viking if I do/can't scout a stargate or just straight up to a tech lab.
I've been getting ravens out if they don't get a port. (actually not bad harass if there is good air space behind mineral lines)
Then the usual 3 facts while getting the 3rd CC. and starting the 4,5th right after the OC finishes.
However, I love the gasless 1/1/1 into hellion/marine/medvac elevatoring up to the main in TvT. It transitions well into mech if you start your natural as you are moving out with 8 marines/3 hellions/medvac.
Get super greedy and go reactor before the 1st marine (the hellion comes out by the time reaper gets in your base unless proxied)
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Gasless 1/1/1?? Gas first I assume?
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On July 24 2014 09:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
Gasless 1/1/1?? Gas first I assume?
Yes. Sorry for miss type.
I honestly don't see the point of going anything but gas first in TvT unless you are opening reapers. Even against reaper openings FE can be severely punished with good control while gas first times out perfectly to push back reaper opening TvT play.
Plus you hit the earliest banshee/medvac timing possible.
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Awesome thread 19Meavis93!
This is the direction mech has to go IMO to be fun for everyone including spectators. Aggressive with lots of harass, and not super turtle Thor/ Raven, etc.
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With this build I killed 73 probes in just one game. Thank you Meavis and keep up this work and the mapmaking.
Can you reupload those replays?
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EPT
