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On July 20 2014 11:43 Mnijykmirl wrote:
I don't see why you insist so much on starting off with reactor Hellion over reactor Widow Mine. I'll start from an assumption: we're going to focus our TvP around armory-upgraded units aka mech and the merits of bio are not important for the rest of the discussion. Our goal is to win games with these mech units.
I agree that the guiding opening to mech is gas first fast reactor factory. Now instead of just jumping straight to hellion, let's consider the range of options: 2xHellion-Hellion, or 2xWidow Mine-Widow Mine, or Hellion-Hellion then Widow Mine-Widow Mine, or Widow Mine-Widow Mine then Hellion-Hellion, or 2x Hellion-Widow Mine or any other combination of.
Building 4 Hellion has potential for tons of econ damage, and can punish greedy Protoss builds with lots of probe cook, I agree. But we're looking to either win or get the maximum amount of the situation, I can see numerous reasons to utilize Widow Mines just as early. Snagging the first couple stalker or zealot out of their gateways can scare early protoss aggression significantly while driving the Protoss towards detection. That could provide a window to expand more aggressively, or hide and set up a surprise timing attack. With a combination of Hellion and Widow Mines, it's possible to eat stalker/MSC shots or kite zealots with Hellion for Widow Mines to burrow in more aggressive positions. Lastly, 2 Widow Mine shots will kill a MSC to prevent a Nexus Overcharge or MSC aggression or even be positioned on probes before Nexus Overcharge and deal economic damage anyway.
I think a more calculated approach on map, map position, general gameplan as Terran in TvP, and scouting of the enemy Protoss should determine the first units out of a factory, rather than a dead-set focus on Hellion.
I have some experience with early mine aggression. But any competent Protoss will just bait shots out of your widow mines with 1 probe. If you kill the first scouting Stalker which happens pretty often since protoss are so used to their first stalker on the map being invincible, then they make sure as hell that your mines dont get to their mineral lines. Ofc you can expand and they'll be scared to go into the map. However i've always felt that having mines and not enough units is like lacking a backbone in your army.
The Hammer build incorporates widow mines and gets them in a nice synergy with Marauders and Concussive Shell. Even if your mines die/do nothing, you still have something beefy to back them up, keep pushing or go back to if defended.
I've had mixed results with Hellion Mine, but i will try pure mines  . I have the feeling that this will turn into a defensive build which i honestly hate. I hate letting Protoss dictate your every move.
I just love this opener because it makes the boring TvP matchup fun! Terran gets to outmicro Protoss super hard on the early game to then kind of amove them with mech.
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Have to agree with the above concerning mines.
as for another topic, replays should be available again.
though there is a problem with adding more, the situation is as following and it has been a recurring one for me since hots.
I don't play a whole lot of games per season relative to other players, usually in the 20-60 range, and often in bursts.
this lets MMR decay grab hold of me, and when I place the next season, tadaa diamond.
then suddenly there is this huge barrier of 100diamond players you have to go through to get respectable games again, most of these games are walkovers, but still incredibly time consuming.
now I find myself lacking in motivation to grind through, and get some master level replays for you guys.
I can however upload a bunch of diamond level opponents, which may look rather onesided, but makes for some filler material to the guide.
so basically I want to ask your opinion on if I should include these or not.
also if you have any replays yourself against master+ level I would like to include those.
+ Show Spoiler [red bull qualifier] +another thing I might include is supernova's game against MC in the red bull qualifier on Sejong, where he made great use of multi pronged harass to build up his infrastructure and eventually win the game by deflecting MC's pushes. (maybe a commentary video even?)
I'm still willing to keep the guide updated, I just lack the motivation to play myself right now.
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Hi all, here are my 2 cents about gas 1st reactor hellion into Mech TvP <3 <3 <3
I am cutting a bit of gas to get an earlier CC. Build is mineral heavy.
very clean replay, master level : gas 1st hellions TvP vs 1g expand into oracle
build order : 10 depot (wall) 12gas 14rax à la lagforce.
15 scout
17 factory asap @100 gas + OC
@44 gas send 2 scvs away from gas (one to the wall, one to mineral) and reactor asap @50gas
I build both 2nd depot (stop @10%) and start 3rd depot aswell to finish WALL (3'30) + shift click scv to build both in a row.
Having 1 scv left mining gas gives you 50 gas at 4'25 when factory and reactor are finished, SO if I scout an early starport or 6 probes mining gas I change my plan and go straight to 2x defensive widow mines as first units then 4 hellions.
But usually I go straight 2x hellions, CC in base to be safe, then 2x more hellions (or 4 hellions then CC)
and back to mining gas.
starport + 2x widow mines as 3rd production cycle.
land CC at natural and take 3rd and 4th gas
then i usually build 2nd factory and 2nd starport both with techlabs. dumping my gas into 2xbanshees production, cloack, raven defensive tanks, armory > +1 and blue flamme. later I build 3rd factory+reactor on rax to switch with one of my starport on it (2x viking).
I aim to some swiss knife composition with banshees raven tanks thors BF hellbat viking and +1 attack
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The Probe issue with Mines can be fixed by manually targeting with the Mines before they go off. If need be, you can repeatedly click the Probe until another unit comes in range or you can simply unburrow it since if you can't target another unit he most likely doesn't have one in range to kill the Mine before it burrows again.
Now, Mines followed up by Hellions is pretty nifty. If you kill a Stalker, you will likely get a few Hellions in. He has to wall off with units unless he wants to kill a Pylon or make Sentries, which means you can either kill the Stalkers with the Mines (tanking hits with your Hellions to allow your Mines to burrow) and then run the Hellions in, or you can delay his natural mining by quite a bit. It's almost like a Terran Baneling bust. If you can sneak a Hammer-style Conc Shells Marauder in, then he has even more trouble walling.
Mines don't have to be defensive as some might say. Of course, if the Protoss is being very aggressive and you have no Hellions, it might be better to let the Protoss have to attack into your Mines, but if you can get just a handful of Hellions out, then you can force the Protoss to commit at least some units into defense. If you can get Drilling Claws and some Vikings out, it's very easy to be aggressive vs Protoss since you can scan-kill Observers and burrow before your Mines die. It's not quite as mobile as mass Hellions and you might have to leapfrog your Mines sometimes (though this is more important vs enemy Bio and LBM than it is vs Protoss), but it's much more mobile than traditional Mech.
Mine/Tank with some air support can leapfrog forward aggressively as well and it's more synergistic than pure Mines. It is less mobile, falling between pure Mines and traditional Mech, but it can still be aggressive (see: Mario).
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I've taken this aggressive mech to heart and I have a dominating win rate in TvP.
+ Show Spoiler +Refinery #1 @ 11
Barracks @ 13
[A]SCV Scout
Orbital Command @ 16
Factory #1
Reactor on Barracks, Swap with Factory #1 when complete -> Hellions x4
Pull SCVs out of gas @ 26 gas remaining
[B]4x Hellions can kill first Zealot, Stalker, run by to mineral lines, Scout for T2 tech building
Expand #1
Widow Mine x1 -> Hellions/Widow Mines
SCVs in gas
Factory #2 -> Widow Mines/Hellions
Expand #2
Refinery #2
Starport -> Vikings
Refinery #3
Tech lab on Factory #2 -> Siege Tanks
Ghost Academy
Tech Lab on Barracks -> Ghosts
Refinery #4
Factory #3, Tech lab on Factory #3 -> Siege Tanks
Refinery #5
Factory #4, Tech lab on Factory #4 -> Siege Tanks
Refinery #6
Factory #5, Tech lab on Factory #5 -> Siege Tanks
Armory -> Weapon Upgrades
Research Pre-Igniters
[C] Scan or Scout for additional expansions, Fleet Beacon, multiple Stargates
*Get Engineering Bay + Turrets any time detection for Dark Templar is needed
@~177 total supply available
Stop all SCV production
Build 3 more Orbital Commands
Build at least 2 more Factory with Reactor and Tech lab, 1 more Starport w/ Reactor
The reactive part of the build:
+ Show Spoiler +If [A]SCV Scout scouts:
Protoss natural expansion - > continue to double expand.
If Protoss does not expand -> cut second expand, cut build order from Factory #4 through Factory #5
If [B] Hellion scouts Twilight
Do not suicide Hellions, walk Widow Mines and Hellions into Protoss base, scout for hidden Pylons on the map to deny warp-ins.
If [B]Hellion scouts does not scout Robotics or Twilight, or scouts Stargate
Place 1st Widow Mine in main mineral line for Oracle, then do as below as if scouted Robotics
If [B] Hellion scouts Robotics
Position Hellions + Widow Mine + Viking outside their natural. Keep 1 scan available. Scan and snipe Observers, walking Widow Mines and Hellions forward/backwards for time.
If [C] Protoss expands to 3 base
Push down 3rd once Armory completes for Hellbat transform.
If [C] Protoss is using Stargate units
Build additional Starport, Reactor on both Starports, cut back Siege Tank production for Hellions/Widow Mines instead as needed.
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This was my favorite TvT build when people called it the iEchoic build. It was also my favorite TvP build in WoL. I'm glad it still works.
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another thing I might include is supernova's game against MC in the red bull qualifier on Sejong, where he made great use of multi pronged harass to build up his infrastructure and eventually win the game by deflecting MC's pushes. (maybe a commentary video even?)
Is there a replay somewhere ?
Would be very helpfull for a newbe in mec style!I
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Technically speaking, it only takes 3 hellions to one shot probes. Is there merit to going 2 hellions => 1 hellion 1widow mine => full hellion production as a way to stay safe from wonky play?
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On September 14 2014 01:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Technically speaking, it only takes 3 hellions to one shot probes. Is there merit to going 2 hellions => 1 hellion 1widow mine => full hellion production as a way to stay safe from wonky play?
I've worked on this a lot. You can produce 4 Hellions, then a widow mine, and be safe from oracles. 4 Hellions can kill a Zealot and a Stalker just fine. While 3 one-shot probes, I think you'll always get better results from 4 because you can lose one Hellion to MSC or Stalker and still have 3. 2 Hellions -> 1 Hellion 1 Widow Mine might be still very good though, I'm not sure.
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I'm a 4 hellion man myself ever since I used the iechoic build in WoL. But my mechanics are bad and my game sense is off, so I was curious if there was a "safer" sequence for us lowbies lol.
So for I've won 5/5 games with it, but I'm too low a rank to count since all my wins have been killing 10-20+ workers with the first 4 hellions. Not exactly the best statistic to glean information from.
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Been using this build in tvt and TvZ as well as TvP. Very very promising for low leaguers like me. Will post my detailed thoughts on this tomorrow once I've written it up.
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Hm, suprised to hear so, while my TvT opener is somewhat similar but more flexible as terran counter aggression is a bit easier to stop, I have poor success with gas first hellions in TvZ.
it might catch the occasional zerg off-guard but it's hard to make it work inconstantly.
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http://drop.sc/387411
http://drop.sc/387412
gas 1st hellion TvP vs oracle play, deflected thx to mine
into 2 port banshee raven marines hellions/hellbats à la iEchoic !
love my transition to finish the game rapidly <3
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Could you repost the replays? I'm having trouble downloading them and I wanna do something different in TvP thx?
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EPT
