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300th post yay, Let's celebrate with a guide on my favorite way of playing TvP
Guide is still slightly WiP so please notify me of any errors and feedback or questions are welcome.
Short introduction, I'm Meavis, a master random player and TvP is my best MU with a win rate of nearly 70%, all thanks to mech and not willing to play meta.
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So you like to play mech, but are tired of turtle variants?
Or maybe you're just tired of losing all your bio to masses of storms, colossus and zealots?
so why should you play mech?
- interactive unit composition
- lower apm ceiling
- remember this?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8bkQ7eu.jpg)
- the feeling of beating toss at their own game
- + Show Spoiler +On July 10 2014 21:51 SatedSC2 wrote:
I don't even know how to play against this sort of stuff. At some point you make one small mistake and a whole mineral line disappears. A 100 mineral unit that can be built very early in the game, deals splash damage, is faster than Probes and Stalkers, can essentially ignore Photon Overcharge or a single Cannon, and needs 4+ Cannons to be dealt with is just T_T
- artosis is watching you
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y5NKLEm.png)
concept and general rules of aggressive mech
The concept is quite simple, you make hellions, lots of them, hellions will actually be your key unit, not tanks.
Anything that hellions can't trade against will be taken down by strategical gameplay described in this guide.
Because hellions lack a few things such as flight and their inability to deal with air, we get a starport fairly early to counter out most if not all weaknesses that come with early hellion openers.
Tanks are added later on, while hellions are a nice unit, tanks definitely do better against stalkers and are needed for colossus.
In response to seeing mech, protoss will usually either make immortals or voidrays, which both can be countered by starport tech, vikings can deal with air and banshees burn through immortals fast.
In general you play very much like bio in terms of aggression but differently in macro, defense and general engagements as well as dealing with heavy tech switches bio doesn't make.
Just like bio and terran play in general, you need to do economic damage to slow down the accelerated economy of protoss and you no longer have to rely on a far superior engagement like defensive mech variants.
As for upgrades, it really depends on how long you want to drag the game on, if you see plenty of windows early on you can decide to skip on upgrades and hit fast, especially because against immortals the amount of hits matters more than how much you hit for.
If you decide to drag the game on, I'd recommend to get upgrades somewhat latter than you would normally get for mech for previous reasons.
If you don't see direct options to attack but still want to hit soon, consider fast +1 along with blue flame to make hellions take 2 instead of 3 shots to kill probes, and reduce the amount of hellions to kill probes in a single volley from 3 to 2 as well.
The counter to anything mech can't deal with is countered by being over aggressive with hellions.
Build order
9 rally next scv to ramp
10 build depot at ramp
11 refinery (fill instantly with 3/3 when done)
13 barracks at ramp
If there's a probe being annoying, and you assume hes gonna try to pylon block your reactor swap, get a marine out
17factory
17orbital
Reactor on barracks at 50gas
Depot at 100mins
Another depot at 100mins
Get 2hellions from reactor
Add starport
Continue adding hellions and depots whilst making scvs
Get a medivac from your starport and get a tech lab on it afterwards
Stop making depots when your max supply is 43 (you should have 8hellions a medivac at this point)
Start building a CC at the natural
Add depots and resume production
Add 2 factory's and a 2nd gas (add-ons will be reactionary)
from here on there are to many variables to put into a build order so here are all steps and checks from early to lategame.
Early Game (and the survival of rushes/all-in)
2gate
This one can be troublesome or easy, with a gas first your barracks is slower and you have less time to react but it's far from impossible.
It's very much preferred to use your depots to wall early on, and you should scout your main and common proxy areas at around 2minutes.
In case of a proxy 2gate outside of your base, complete the wall of and get a marine out whilst building your factory so you can transition fast after the hold.
VS an in base variant you want to simcity a bunker near your mineral line where its easy for scvs to hug it but difficult for zealots to get surface area.
2gate stalker
A tough one since its usualy harder to find as this proxy usualy builds further away but still relatively close to you, the best response is an scv pull whilst trying to get a bunker and wall at the ramp up, they may snipe your wall but it should buy enough time to get more of a defense out
cannonrush
Much easier to hold with a gas first than you would expect but the difficulty depends on where the cannonrush is coming from and how close it was, if it starts at your ramp you should have no problem delaying it with scvs/marines until you get your very early tank out thanks to gas first.
If the cannon rush started in your base you should still aim to get a factory out and mine for as long as possible, a lift will probably necessary before the tank is done building, after a tank you can start hellions and bring back the aggression to the protoss as he has little to no tech to deal with this.
How to scout further 1 base aggression
You should always be aggressive with your first 8 hellions to see what the protoss is up to and hurt them accordingly.
The way in which you want to commit is often different, rarely do you want to start roasting workers straight away as 2hellions die fast, 4should be enough but I personally recommend just poking with the initial 2-4 and then wait for your medivac and other 4 hellions to do a pincer drop.
The pincer drop is simply dropping 4hellions in the back whilst 4 others await the fleeing probes at the ramp, if the protoss is not paying attention they could lose everything in a single line of fire.
Elevatoring all 8 hellions is also an option if the protoss is not paying attention to corners of his base, depending on what the protoss is doing you may even just want to back off completely and focus on defending whats coming up next.
proxy stargate
This can easily be scouted through the mobility of your first 2 hellions, the proper response is to get either a viking, turret or mines out, some prefer mines, but not me, it just cuts into hellions.
When the oracle hits, mineral walk to your natural or 3rd as the oracle has problems with continued fire against moving targets, this will reduce SCV losses untill your turret is up.
Keep pumping hellions and go for more probe kills than his oracle could hope for.
3 or 4gate
This one can be surprisingly easy sometimes or game ending depending on your control, your initial hellions should be able to identify it and do serious damage to the protoss economy before warpgate finishes, if you did enough damage you can easily trade with hellions and an scv pull when the eventual push hits, if not you may need to rely on delaying it until your additional production is ready.
since many seem to be struggling against this here are some additional tips.
Make use of a force contain, if he leaves, kill the economy, reducing warp ins to a minimum, or delay him til you have units ready at home.
Make sure you engage them with an scv pull when they're in a choke and can't reach your tech units.
Make use of your ramp or chokes to LINE EM UP.
If possible a few mines on your ramp can be game ending, they build slowly though so don't start what you can't finish.
3gate robo all in
By the time this hits you should have added your 2 factory's, the key is to produce as many banshees and only dump excess gas into tanks as they're easy targets for immortals, any money left should go into mass hellions, when they eventually hit SCV pulls can provide additional protection for your tank and banshees
3gate stargate
Less banshee more viking other than that its pretty much the same as defending a robotics all-in, you do need to kite correctly with your vikings, try not to take any damage as void rays locking on is certain death for a viking
blink all-in
Possibly the toughest of early game aggression, but just like 4gate you should make use of your hellions to indirectly reduce their stalker count by hurting their economy with your hellions, get as many tanks and hellions out at home as you can before they hit.
Make sure to engage in areas where there is not much of an area for blink stalkers to flee too and are easy pick offs for focus fire.
Planetary nexus rush
Pull SCV's, kill the probe, and kill the nexus ASAP, rush starport out for a viking behind this as MScore will be incoming.
after this you can continue on with your meching life.
As an additional comment, you will often come across protoss that are fully unprepared for super early hellion aggression and will flat out die to it, this can result into some hilarious moments and something terrans can very much relate to (hint oracle hint)
Midgame
Huray you got into the midgame with mech, here are some basic pointers for the midgame.
At all times you should have hellions near the protoss base as well as a loaded medivac waiting to jump in the moment protoss leaves or doesn't pay attention, this will force contain protoss as when they push they are forced to leave something behind or take severe economical damage and will have to do without reinforcements.
At this point you should be having 2 bases and a developed tech tree, your job is now to identify what protoss is doing through hellion pokes and scans and react accordingly.
The majority of your games should end in the midgame, to do so you need to properly identify opportunity windows, they can be something as simple as being a step ahead in countering their composition, or having done critical damage to economy, successfully deflecting an attack, or your opponent simply being out of position.
Identifying these windows and knowing when you're ahead can be difficult, but don't feel afraid to go out there and poke, at worst you will lose your tank count as the majority of your composition (hellion/banshee) out speeds the protoss deathball.
Immortal heavy play
This is an easy one, whilst you still want to include some tanks for severe splash damage vs armoured targets, the majority of your units should be hellions and banshees, hellions deal extremely well with zealots and take reduced damage from stalkers and immortals thanks to their light tag, which will help banshees and tanks survive.
Against immortal heavy play aggression is an option and you can try to kill them when a window arises such as a tech transition, the protoss expanding, or having done damage through a runby or drops.
If the protoss continues to be immortal heavy and you see no opportunity to break them, a transition to mass battlecruiser is not out of place, they deal very well with just about anything protoss, just make sure to have a few tanks or ghosts nearby to prevent feedback on them.
Colossus play
Hellion banshee doesnt fare as well vs colossus as it does vs other options, this is definitly something you want to go heavier on tanks against, with their superior range you should be able to peel at colossus.
Keep your hellions nearby ready to tank damage from immortal shots and banshees to focus fire down immortal shields.
Zealot archon
Straight up dies against masses of hellions and tanklines, also very incapable of dealing with driveby's, if you lose to this you simply didn't build enough stuff.
Void ray heavy
Massing vikings is an easy solution with this, you can also abuse the fact that void rays do not that much damage against hellions, and runbys can often be really effective and hurt the void ray count indirectly.
Mines are also of great effect vs voidrays as they don't kill them all to fast before at least a few detonate.
Phoenix
This can be an absolute nightmare as you will have to be very precise in timings, you can no longer rely on small runbys as phoenix can easily lift them up or kill drops, if you want to take a risk and damage protoss anyway, you should always hit with multiple groups as one of them is not gonna do anything when phoenix picks them up.
you should always make a few turrets to guard your economy and production from getting instantly picked off, 1 or 2 thors may help but never overcommit as thors are not all to effective against other tech options such as immortals and void rays
after stabilizing and trying to get a 3rd base up you should start massing vikings, while they're ineffective directly against phoenix they're still your best shot, thors can help a lot against phoenix clouds.
while vikings may not to be to effective in fighting phoenix, an opportunity arises to win a different fight, the economical war, in any occasion where phoenix are busy there are windows for harass and setting the toss back a bit.
you can also include some widow mines and burrow them in areas phoenix are likely to fly past when the protoss isn't looking, this can do game ending damage but is very hit or miss, but also very stresfull for phoenix players.
lategame transition from phoenix
phoenix will often transition into skytoss against which you should consider adding a few thors according to their phoenix count, battlecruisers with yamato to make fast work of tempest and carriers (yes battlecruisers actualy do well against tempest despite their damage vs massive air, mostly thanks to their ability to yamato down single targets, the denial of shots by PDD, and the added reach of vikings)
again just like in the early game, some drops or runbys can do so much damage a protoss will leave out of frustration or the realization that coming back from this is going to be incredibly hard, yay for terran'ing.
lategame
lategame is quite rare but very exciting to play, mostly because you get to use units you would normally never use, your primary unit, and one you should be able to afford in a lategame scenario is the battlecruiser, complementary units are required to prevent them from being easy targets, you will need ravens and their point defense drone against tempests, tanks for high ammounts of blink stalkers and also against templar
hellions and banshees along with defensive tanks/PF's on maps where protoss will try to maneuver around you with stalkers, and a couple vikings to extend your reach against air units.
slowly crawl towards your opponent with tanks and PDD's and your fleet nearby, slowly pushing them back untill eventually you can destroy their base or force an engagement, yamatos should be used on any target as in the case of protoss units there is not a single unit excluding the observer that isn't worth the charge time of yamato, just remember to use it on the most important targets as yamato's are limited, seekers will in general perform well against any clump of units.
just make sure to focus fire down templars with tanks whilst all of this and you should be just fine.
List of newbie mistakes that you shouldn't make
-Making marines for no good reason
-Being inactive with hellions
-Being to heavy on X unit against Y composition, despite having scouted whats going on.
General unit counters
protoss makes - you make
probes - hellions
zealots - hellions
stalker - hellion/tank mix
sentry - hellions
HT - hellions/tanks + cloak/uncloak flickering to drain banshee energy
immortal - banshee
colossus - tanks
oracle - turret + hellions
phoenix - expand + turrets + thor/viking
void ray - viking/turrets
carrier - BC/viking
tempest - BC/raven/viking
wall off - medivac
basetrade - mines
VoD's
Gloob covering the build
+ Show Spoiler +
replays:
http://drop.sc/384197 vs stalker colo on overgrowth
http://drop.sc/384205 vs robo/phoenix on frost
http://drop.sc/384206 vs 2base blink allin that never happend because of a probe slaughter
http://drop.sc/384207 vs blink contain into immortal/templar
http://drop.sc/384208 vs immortal/void ray
http://drop.sc/384209 vs 1gate FE into DT
will add more replays later, GL on ladder.
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Just for initial thoughts. Are you trying to hit a mid game timing or just get to the late game while constantly harassing and only attack in the mid game if you see an opportunity such as a tech switch or greedy play. Is there any specific mid game timing like 140 supply? X amount of tanks etc
Also when protoss makes cannons in their mineral line do you just use your hellions in the drop and turn them into hellbats instead?
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you want to hit a midgame timing anywhere you see an opportunity window, in general as long you are leading in army value and can produce enough reinforcements you can hit as early as 100 supply.
you can also transition to lategame but I don't like to give protoss as much breathing room as the lategame is harder on the terran end whilst in the midgame it's relatively even.
as for cannons, it depends somewhat on the ammount of cannons and what upgrades you have, if theres 5 or less cannons but you still have the upgrades to 2 shot probes, you can easily drive in to tank shots for a few seconds as thats all you need to burn the probes, hellbats have lesser range and speed so it's far more difficult for them to chase probes.
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Really cool ! I'll wait to see more replays though vs various Protoss openings before I formulate my opinion. But at first glance it's interesting. I wonder what Lyyna would think of this
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yesyesyesyes this is the best thing ever. okay so i'm starting a youtube meching series cuz i think it'll be fun and hopefully helpful for some people. would you mind me featuring this at some point? cuz i really really really wanna try it and hopefully help show other people what it looks like in a video-educatey-funny kind of way? pleeeaaaase? i'll give you the credit you deserve (>9000%)! let me know! thanks!
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hehe np, anything to see more variety from terrans on ladder so people can stop crying all terran does is bio, added another replay, will dig throught files for more.
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The formatting is a tad difficult for ease of processing here. Correct capitalization and better paragraph spacing would go a long way towards ensuring everyone gets maximum value out of the work you've put in here. I would enjoy seeing perhaps annotations on the example games to illustrate key points, and more fleshing out on the methods of combating specific styles.
Also, it was worth it to read the entire guide just for the purpose of seeing that Paint image again. Seriously, the Slayers Hellions mentality was exactly that derpy and ten times as fun to pull off.
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On July 10 2014 04:38 Universum wrote:
Really cool ! I'll wait to see more replays though vs various Protoss openings before I formulate my opinion. But at first glance it's interesting. I wonder what Lyyna would think of this
Hard to say. Not quite experienced with these agressive styles
The opening can be good, but it is kinda.. gamble-ish. Some things (like "not scouting the exact spot where a proxy is") can be devastating (devastating like "no way to prevent death from happening"), and it shares some similarity with the hellion-based midgame, the main one being, in my opinion, that the result is dictated more by the protoss' ability to block your harass / handle your agression rather than the terran's skills.
I might just be quite pessimistic (considering how bad this season started for me , i'm just mad and sad at the game currently --' )
But obviously, if it works for you, just give it a shot and enjoy it. This is the main reason i played mech and made my style, and this is of course something everyone can and should do if they can create something that fit their skills and needs
It could be interesting (in order to improve it) to look at WoL TvP mech pro games, which relied a lot on mass hellions. Liquid'Sea, MKP(,Byun?) did some. Dayshi's hellions games can also be interesting
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On July 10 2014 17:04 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2014 04:38 Universum wrote:
Really cool ! I'll wait to see more replays though vs various Protoss openings before I formulate my opinion. But at first glance it's interesting. I wonder what Lyyna would think of this Hard to say. Not quite experienced with these agressive styles The opening can be good, but it is kinda.. gamble-ish. Some things (like "not scouting the exact spot where a proxy is") can be devastating (devastating like "no way to prevent death from happening"), and it shares some similarity with the hellion-based midgame, the main one being, in my opinion, that the result is dictated more by the protoss' ability to block your harass / handle your agression rather than the terran's skills. I might just be quite pessimistic (considering how bad this season started for me , i'm just mad and sad at the game currently --' ) But obviously, if it works for you, just give it a shot and enjoy it. This is the main reason i played mech and made my style, and this is of course something everyone can and should do if they can create something that fit their skills and needs It could be interesting (in order to improve it) to look at WoL TvP mech pro games, which relied a lot on mass hellions. Liquid'Sea, MKP(,Byun?) did some. Dayshi's hellions games can also be interesting
Yes, this is definitely much like bio when it comes to being in the hands of toss to deny your harass, it's harder for protoss though as hellions are pretty much bio with splash and even more chasing potential for running probes.
what it shares with mech though is that when it doesn't succeed you have much more control in stopping the protoss deathball.
Sea's Mech also definitely contributed to the development to this style of mech, I'd say Dayshi's mass hellion games are somewhat similar but unrefined in their opening and transition to midgame pushes.
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Looks interesting but how does it deal with a Mothership Core heading straight for the mineral line as well as Proxy Oracle?
Even if you scout the Stargate, the faster Proxy Oracles will be done before your Turret finishes.
Mines are an option but they would have to be in position beforehand or the Oracle can just dodge/kill them.
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against early mothership core and oracle, you will just have to accept that you are going to take some damage, making a viking will kill the mothership/oracle after taking some losses or atleast buy time to get a turret and prevent later harass.
these types of things also open up a window for you to deal far more damage than they will ever do to you, lack of a mothersip core or less units at home allows your hellions for deadly results.
The best example of this is I think the robo/phoenix game on frost if I'm not confusing it with another game.
Whilst taking some damage from an early mothershipcore and oracle you can easily return the favor.
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so for this Ladder, I've decided to start playing around with mech more seriously, and I have to say this was the matchup I was most intimidated to try it against, but I've had decent results with it so far. Thanks for putting this guide together!
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 10 2014 17:43 19Meavis93 wrote:
against early mothership core and oracle, you will just have to accept that you are going to take some damage, making a viking will kill the mothership/oracle after taking some losses or atleast buy time to get a turret and prevent later harass.
these types of things also open up a window for you to deal far more damage than they will ever do to you, lack of a mothersip core or less units at home allows your hellions for deadly results.
The best example of this is I think the robo/phoenix game on frost if I'm not confusing it with another game.
Whilst taking some damage from an early mothershipcore and oracle you can easily return the favor.
If you have no built-in safety Ebay against a proxy oracle, and are cutting marines as well, you will always outright die to it.
Also, i feel like the only reliable way for Mech to beat immortal/archon/templar type armies (with zealot reinforcements) is by mixing in a lot ghosts, nut just mixing in a few. Banshees are cute and all but between archon shots, feedback and storm they just don't cut it. Same for hellions.
Interesting thread though  i like the idea of being insanely aggressive with hellions when going mech, if the Protoss screws up defending them no amount of immortal op-ness can save you.
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Nice guide! I really like gas first openings too I wanted to make a gas first opening guide but didn't really have the time. Thanks for getting the word out!
On July 10 2014 19:32 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2014 17:43 19Meavis93 wrote:
against early mothership core and oracle, you will just have to accept that you are going to take some damage, making a viking will kill the mothership/oracle after taking some losses or atleast buy time to get a turret and prevent later harass.
these types of things also open up a window for you to deal far more damage than they will ever do to you, lack of a mothersip core or less units at home allows your hellions for deadly results.
The best example of this is I think the robo/phoenix game on frost if I'm not confusing it with another game.
Whilst taking some damage from an early mothershipcore and oracle you can easily return the favor. If you have no built-in safety Ebay against a proxy oracle, and are cutting marines as well, you will always outright die to it. Also, i feel like the only reliable way for Mech to beat immortal/archon/templar type armies (with zealot reinforcements) is by mixing in a lot ghosts, nut just mixing in a few. Banshees are cute and all but between archon shots, feedback and storm they just don't cut it. Same for hellions. Interesting thread though i like the idea of being insanely aggressive with hellions when going mech, if the Protoss screws up defending them no amount of immortal op-ness can save you.
Actually with a gas first build, you can make 2 widow mines as late as after the first 4 hellions and be ahead. Just pull workers fast once you spot the oracle (you should have depots for vision as well so you can see it coming) and run them away. You lose mining time but you kill all of protoss's probes or force him to cut a lot of things to get a 3 pylon block at his ramp to make up for you losing mining time. Supernova does this all the time!
On July 10 2014 17:24 Thezzy wrote:
Looks interesting but how does it deal with a Mothership Core heading straight for the mineral line as well as Proxy Oracle?
Even if you scout the Stargate, the faster Proxy Oracles will be done before your Turret finishes.
Mines are an option but they would have to be in position beforehand or the Oracle can just dodge/kill them.
Another option is to simply scout with a SCV before the hellions. If you reach his base early enough and he doesn't have a zealot or early probe patrolling his natural (almost never) you can ebay block him and let the ebay finish. It's unreliable if the protoss is good but most won't be scouting their natural until right when they want to put the nexus down, and if they're going oracles that means the nexus won't be down so early and the ebay can finish. If you are successful you'll be super ahead as you can turret up at home and force protoss in an ugly situation. He can show his units and kill the ebay to get his nexus up fast and thus reveal everything he has, or he can hide things and take forever to take his natural. It's really easy to read if he's going to all-in or not.
Another another option is to only do the build on 3-4 player maps, where proxy oracles and such are naturally not as strong.
If you're talking about MSC coming to poke SCVs (or were you saying MSC + oracle together?) it can be an instant gg, especially if he doesn't scout well or in time before his MSC arrives; you can run your hellions right into his mineral line and kill all his probes and force him to recall. He can pylon block but he'll have to cut a lot and some times they simply won't be able to afford 300 minerals (or 200 + stalker) by the time they realize hellions are coming.
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On July 10 2014 19:28 elborrador wrote:
so for this Ladder, I've decided to start playing around with mech more seriously, and I have to say this was the matchup I was most intimidated to try it against, but I've had decent results with it so far. Thanks for putting this guide together!
yeah I was kinda suprised to see TvP becoming my best MU with mostly playing mech as terran aswell, protoss somehow feels a lot easier than dealing with speedvacs or muta/SH
On July 10 2014 19:32 Teoita wrote:If you have no built-in safety Ebay against a proxy oracle, and are cutting marines as well, you will always outright die to it. Also, i feel like the only reliable way for Mech to beat immortal/archon/templar type armies (with zealot reinforcements) is by mixing in a lot ghosts, nut just mixing in a few. Banshees are cute and all but between archon shots, feedback and storm they just don't cut it. Same for hellions. Interesting thread though i like the idea of being insanely aggressive with hellions when going mech, if the Protoss screws up defending them no amount of immortal op-ness can save you.
what I found to be most optimal is just send scvs to the natural or 3rd base, the oracle constantly has to pause in between shots to accelerate and you lose about 5-6 workers, after that you have a viking or a turret, this may sound bad but on the other side of the map hellions are laughing at those numbers.
edit: looks like yoshi allready explained this while I was typing my wall of text.
as for immortal/archon/templar, part of the reason why you are so aggresive is to bait out units that aren't these, feedback has a very simlpe counter, researching cloak and spamming cloak and uncloak to drain your energy makes feedback feel like tickling.
archons are also a reason why I prefer hellions even in combat as they can drive between your tanks, kiting zealots and archons, keeping them alive also buys more tanking HP to deal with the immortal.
it still remains a scary composition, but with enough experience in this style it becomes a lot easier to deal with, even without ghosts.
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Since HotS I haven't been using many hellions/banshees, but now that you mention them I can't wait to practice it again!
Good point about being aggressive to "bait" out weak units. Do you remember Sea's tvp mech in wol?
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True as that may be, Hellions are complete crap in any straight up engagement.
Killing 20 probes is worthless if the 7g Blink all-in just kills you before you can get any defense up.
Hellbats far better but Stalkers can kite those all day long.
My main worry with this kind of play remains the Air component.
Phoenixes run circles around Vikings and can be chrono boosted out very quickly.
I suppose going for a high Widow Mine count (with fast drilling claws) would help but I'd be very afraid of a few Phoenixes and 2-3 Void Rays just melting everything from above.
Without a Goliath like Mech unit, the only real air defense is the Thor which is way too slow and bulky for the AA job.
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2base blink all-ins are rarely a threat as your tank count should be sufficient to hold by then, this is assuming you got a read off in time and started tank production accordingly, 1base blink is somewhat scary with aggro mech as it delays vs armoured units, but still very possible to hold with scv pulls.
the air component is indeed the biggest threat you will be facing, the things is that phoenixes can't lift turrets which you should be able to make plenty of as your other mineral dump (hellions) does very little against phoenix, adding a thor or two under your vikings allows you to go out on the map to take bases and place turrets around.
that was the easy part, the hard part is the tempest followup, ground vs air has little options against the range of tempest so depending on when he hits you should get atleast a few more thors to clear the sky for your vikings, which should delay the protoss long enough to get ravens and PDD out.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2014 21:51 SatedSC2 wrote:
Hellions...
If there was some way of knowing my win-rate vs. people who go for early/constant Hellion harass, it would show you that I have a very low win-rate against this kind of stuff. I don't even know how to play against this sort of stuff. At some point you make one small mistake and a whole mineral line disappears. A 100 mineral unit that can be built very early in the game, deals splash damage, is faster than Probes and Stalkers, can essentially ignore Photon Overcharge or a single Cannon, and needs 4+ Cannons to be dealt with is just T_T
this is going in the OP if you don't mind
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nice guide, i'll check replays, thanks!
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okay, so your first mistake happens at about 5minutes in, you're pooling hellions when you can easily go out on the map and poke to see what hes doing.
at 6:40 you've dealt a lot of damage, you also spotted 3gate so chances are hes going to try and all-in you, like he did.
knowing the previous you should've played more safely, added 2nd gas and go up to 3fact producing 2tanks and 2 hells at a time.
at 7minutes you lose 2 hellions that were rallied into your opponents base
8:20 you couldve lifted the factory and made a tank instead of a marauder, mass repairing it could've helped clear the stalkers.
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Once I identified 3 gate/no expansion should I have cancelled my CC? I considered doing it but thought I could hold :/
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On July 10 2014 23:30 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2014 23:19 19Meavis93 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 10 2014 21:51 SatedSC2 wrote:
Hellions...
If there was some way of knowing my win-rate vs. people who go for early/constant Hellion harass, it would show you that I have a very low win-rate against this kind of stuff. I don't even know how to play against this sort of stuff. At some point you make one small mistake and a whole mineral line disappears. A 100 mineral unit that can be built very early in the game, deals splash damage, is faster than Probes and Stalkers, can essentially ignore Photon Overcharge or a single Cannon, and needs 4+ Cannons to be dealt with is just T_T this is going in the OP if you don't mind I don't mind. I've been saying for ages that Terrans should make more Hellions. There was a time when pro Terrans would go proxy Factory/Starport -> 4 Hellion drop on maps like Daybreak and it was stupidly effective, but then they seemed to stop doing it and I could never understand why. Hellions do so much damage so quickly that it seems far more effective than other forms of early harassment. You can run Probes away from a Mine drop, but not from a Hellion drop.
Yeah, well as iEchoic said, "there is a unit that you can load 2 of them in a medivac and they kill entire mineral lines". Blue-flame hellions make Brood-War reaver drops look like a joke.
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Thank you for the post. I'm a former GM and play mech against all three races. One criticism I have is your opening paragraph describing why to go mech: In this analysis you compare mech to "low apm" and more of a toss "1a" type of style. This is a common misconception. The reason for going mech, in my opinion, is to use positional skill and map awareness to outclass your opponent. Mech is a very unforgiving type of style, but I also find it very fun too. Unlike bio, if you are caught out of position once, you can easily lose the game. If you look at common mech players: Strelok, HTOMario, Avilo, even Major (who has been known to mech versus Protoss on occassion) all have over 160 APM while playing. The only exception to this is GoOdy who, if you look at his replays, has low APM (110-120) but very high EPM, similar to other Progamers.
If your guide is meant for low diamond and below then it works well. But you need APM to constantly harass your opponent. This means typically opening something like WM drop/Helbat drop/Banshee/Helion run-by etc to keep your opponents economy in check. You do NOT want your opponent to reach late game with a Tempest/Carrier/HT ball; therefore, this requires constant harass while macroing at home. An extreme example of this is the mass helion Dayshi build versus Grubby.
EDIT: BTW I used to play the Dayshi style, but the more I played it, the less consistent I found the build. I think it is a good build for perhaps a BO5 tournament play to throw your opponent off, but for consistency winning on ladder, I found early immortal/stalker pokes were too detrimental to my economy. And, even with one or two tanks, immortals can target and take them out.
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On July 11 2014 07:01 TheGloob wrote:
Once I identified 3 gate/no expansion should I have cancelled my CC? I considered doing it but thought I could hold :/
Cancelling the CC isn't that good a move untill you can confirm hes fully all-in, which was in your case when he showed up at your natural ramp with a bunch of stalkers.
What I think cost you the game is the late 2nd gas and no tank production, ideally you want to get the 2nd gas asap after expanding so you have gas ready when you need it.
On July 11 2014 09:47 SirPinky wrote:
Thank you for the post. I'm a former GM and play mech against all three races. One criticism I have is your opening paragraph describing why to go mech: In this analysis you compare mech to "low apm" and more of a toss "1a" type of style. This is a common misconception. The reason for going mech, in my opinion, is to use positional skill and map awareness to outclass your opponent. Mech is a very unforgiving type of style, but I also find it very fun too. Unlike bio, if you are caught out of position once, you can easily lose the game. If you look at common mech players: Strelok, HTOMario, Avilo, even Major (who has been known to mech versus Protoss on occassion) all have over 160 APM while playing. The only exception to this is GoOdy who, if you look at his replays, has low APM (110-120) but very high EPM, similar to other Progamers.
If your guide is meant for low diamond and below then it works well. But you need APM to constantly harass your opponent. This means typically opening something like WM drop/Helbat drop/Banshee/Helion run-by etc to keep your opponents economy in check. You do NOT want your opponent to reach late game with a Tempest/Carrier/HT ball; therefore, this requires constant harass while macroing at home. An extreme example of this is the mass helion Dayshi build versus Grubby.
EDIT: BTW I used to play the Dayshi style, but the more I played it, the less consistent I found the build. I think it is a good build for perhaps a BO5 tournament play to throw your opponent off, but for consistency winning on ladder, I found early immortal/stalker pokes were too detrimental to my economy. And, even with one or two tanks, immortals can target and take them out.
As anything in starcraft nothing is really low apm, it's only relative to bio styles and all the micro bio has to do during fights where mech only has to worry about position and focus fire.
1a was more part of the image, 1a doesn't split and siege up tanks =p
I'd say the guide is relevant anywhere from diamond to top foreign level play, aggresive mech requires as you mentioned very good sense of whats going on and anticipation skills so theres definitely a minimum level required for this to be playable.
As for the consistency with this build, it's a lot harder when your opponent can counter anticipate moves and fight you head on in a battle of tech switches, surprise factor definitely helps this style, but doesn't have to make this build invalid.
Personally I would still do better using this build 5 times in a row than switching it up with bio as I'm far more experienced in this style relative to bio, along with that I'm rather slow on reaction so always eat to much damage from storms for my bio to be viable.
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I don't understand.. how are you not dying to Oracle and Stalkers?
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On July 11 2014 19:22 Slashiepie wrote:
I don't understand.. how are you not dying to Oracle and Stalkers?
Hellions deals with early stalkers via over agressivity (basically, if he attacks you with stalkers, nothing can stop you from burning his probes, and you'll do so faster than him)
Oracles are trickier with this kind of opening, the ideal thing being having mines ready...
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Yep. If you decide to build your depots at the wall you can wall it off, kill all his probes (and force him to recall if he brought his MSC too) and just repair wall (if needed) while you get a couple WMs out to defend the ramp. Or just put your 1 marine into a bunker.
If you decided not to wall with depots but keep the depots at your mineral line, you can just kill all his probes and then chase his stalker while buying time for WMs/marines
For oracles, you'll have WMs. If you decide to ebay block his natural you can make a turret. If you get a successful ebay block he's in a really really bad spot.
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Very good! Glad to see players using the hellions as well.
When you scout some sort of gateway allin, did you try spamming mines against it with your reactored factory?
I dont really think you'd have time to wait for your 2 other factories to complete AND produce tanks by the time it hits :/
When i do mech openings factories 2 and 3 are usually ready somewhere around 9 min..
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vs gateway all ins you really need to make use of the force contain, if he leaves, kill his eco, if he has units at home you should be fine.
without eco a gateway all in burns out fast and all you have to do is stretch time a bit.
as for mines, they're really good vs a no tech gateway all in, the problem is they take quite some time to build and are hit or miss.
my preferred way of delaying until I have tanks is to LINE EM UP by blocking them off with an scv pull at your ramp and then making use of hellion splash.
I'll probably expand on gateway all in and oracles later, though I think what most really struggle with is inexperience with the build and smoothness and fast responses.
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update: i've been more and more successful as i refine this style and learn to deal with certain protoss responses. got accused of maphacking yesterday because as soon as his stalker left the ledge my medivac with hellions dropped in and he was not happy  good times
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Glad you're enjoying it, updated the guide a bit, specificly vs early gateway and proxy oracle.
also updated the readability a bit.
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Currently looking to add more into the guide as well as improve it, if anyone has suggestions or requests, please say so.
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Nice guide, one question, though: Have you tried using Widow Mines vs Phoenix play yet? Some Mech users use Widow Mines vs Stargate with pretty good success. They're also easier to produce than Thors.
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mines are great units, esp vs clumped phoenix, I hate relying on them though as they're very hit or miss units. I'll throw it in to the guide as I kinda forget about that option, I rarely use it for previous reasons.
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Added this video by Gloob covering the build under the new VoD section
+ Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkOFuf41KpQ
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Top diamond : 3 times : 3 loss.
• Protoss always scout the incoming hellions
• They build 2 cannons per base instantly + stalker + msc and they're safe very very quickly (before 7 min with expand)
• Even if I kill 33% of this probes, I stay behind because it's one base vs 2 fast nexus
Oracles are easy to defend with fast viking but it means you have less medivacs to be agressive.
Basically once there is two cannons per mineral lines it's fucked, you have to micro really hard to focus fire your drop (otherwise they shoot cannons / nexus), avoid losing drops to stalker & mothership core, find holes in defense, etc… While he's just camping at home, doing whatever he wants. and defending two mineral lines with a few stalker & cannons & msc.
I don't see how this style is viable at all.
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Thank you for this great effort Meavis! I've been looking for some other options that were exciting for quite some time. The more "slow" mech style isn't really me and I get impatient. Looking forward to these replays!
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Nice. This is the style of play I've been using for a long time, glad to see someone put up a guide on it
Hellion based mech vs P is so much fun, hope others feel inspired to try it. It adds a lot of beauty to the "stagnant" matchup of TvP.
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As of now the replay links don't work. Is the site just down temporarily?
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How you deal with the zealot stalker MSC early push? It strikes at the moment you pop out the 1st 2 hellions out of your reactor factory. I just lost a game to it.
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if you get your first hellions in time you should scout it with a slight ammount of time to react, it can be shut down rather easily but delays your aggresion a bit, simply wait for the zealot and stalker to walk up the ramp and then give them an SCV hug by mineral walking and then surrounding, hellions should focus zealot first as it kills scvs pretty fast.
to deal with the mscore simply make a viking.
replays are probs down temporary, as for new replays it might take a while because MMR decay keeps giving walkovers and I don't have a whole lot of time to play games.
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I don't see why you insist so much on starting off with reactor Hellion over reactor Widow Mine. I'll start from an assumption: we're going to focus our TvP around armory-upgraded units aka mech and the merits of bio are not important for the rest of the discussion. Our goal is to win games with these mech units.
I agree that the guiding opening to mech is gas first fast reactor factory. Now instead of just jumping straight to hellion, let's consider the range of options: 2xHellion-Hellion, or 2xWidow Mine-Widow Mine, or Hellion-Hellion then Widow Mine-Widow Mine, or Widow Mine-Widow Mine then Hellion-Hellion, or 2x Hellion-Widow Mine or any other combination of.
Building 4 Hellion has potential for tons of econ damage, and can punish greedy Protoss builds with lots of probe cook, I agree. But we're looking to either win or get the maximum amount of the situation, I can see numerous reasons to utilize Widow Mines just as early. Snagging the first couple stalker or zealot out of their gateways can scare early protoss aggression significantly while driving the Protoss towards detection. That could provide a window to expand more aggressively, or hide and set up a surprise timing attack. With a combination of Hellion and Widow Mines, it's possible to eat stalker/MSC shots or kite zealots with Hellion for Widow Mines to burrow in more aggressive positions. Lastly, 2 Widow Mine shots will kill a MSC to prevent a Nexus Overcharge or MSC aggression or even be positioned on probes before Nexus Overcharge and deal economic damage anyway.
I think a more calculated approach on map, map position, general gameplan as Terran in TvP, and scouting of the enemy Protoss should determine the first units out of a factory, rather than a dead-set focus on Hellion.
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late depot to start with, your first geyser was pretty damn late at 12, your scv production was inconsistant, you built an ebay for no reason leading to inconsistant hellion production, and after that you just throw away your first 2 hellions.
what I said earlier can deal with this super easily.
don't expect to start winning games right of the bat when you're completely unfamiliar with the build.
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On July 20 2014 06:36 WrathSCII wrote:
How you deal with the zealot stalker MSC early push? It strikes at the moment you pop out the 1st 2 hellions out of your reactor factory. I just lost a game to it.
If it's a 2 player map, you have to consider putting your depots at the ramp. This way, if he's doing that push, you can delay him by repairing the wall with SCVs (pull lots and pull back the hurt ones, or sacrifice some is fine too if your micro is not that good) until your 2 WMs come out. Then just burrow them at the ramp so he can't run up except maybe his MSC, but you can repair to deal with that damage with 3SCVs while getting more WMs out and marines.
Or consider scouting early enough to be able to see such push and just rush WMs or wall off, etc.
Usually, against a random opponent, it seems more worth it than not to bet on him not doing a push like that and not walling of you ramp (which allows you to get hellions out slightly faster). But if you want to play 100% safe you will have to do one of the two things I mentioned.
Your first two hellions will be killing all his probes at home so you will be at an advantage, or even 4 hellions if his push is late.
On July 19 2014 22:05 pimsc2 wrote:
Top diamond : 3 times : 3 loss.
• Protoss always scout the incoming hellions
• They build 2 cannons per base instantly + stalker + msc and they're safe very very quickly (before 7 min with expand)
• Even if I kill 33% of this probes, I stay behind because it's one base vs 2 fast nexus
Oracles are easy to defend with fast viking but it means you have less medivacs to be agressive.
Basically once there is two cannons per mineral lines it's fucked, you have to micro really hard to focus fire your drop (otherwise they shoot cannons / nexus), avoid losing drops to stalker & mothership core, find holes in defense, etc… While he's just camping at home, doing whatever he wants. and defending two mineral lines with a few stalker & cannons & msc.
I don't see how this style is viable at all.
If he's investing 600 minerals and not 300 minerals into canons (extra 150 if you include forge) then just say "you can have your defense, I'm going to make another Orbital so that your canons are completely wasted". You don't have to kill probes, just save the hellions for harass or map control later, or save them for a 2 base hellbat tank push (to deny his third so you will eventually have more econ even if you have a later 3rd base, or possibly even kill him) since he just delayed himself 750 minerals.
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The replays in the OP are still broken. Can somebody post some reps of them trying this out? The OP was great and gives me a good idea but I'd love to see it in action. Thanks!
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Ok it makes sense now. This cannot be stressed enough: BE AGGRESSIVE with your HELLIONS.
The First 2 Hellions should immediately head towards the Protoss base. The next 2 join them. If your harass is denied keep attempting damage, try running by, try droping them and running by, just keep the aggression up.
KEEP roasting and flaming those tasty probes.
If it gets to the late game you can always use hellions to reach unprotected bases when the protoss is out of position and transform them into hellbats.. Blue Flame Hellbats will kill Nexi pretty fast.
This style is fun to play.
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On July 22 2014 15:54 Slashiepie wrote:
Ok it makes sense now. This cannot be stressed enough: BE AGGRESSIVE with your HELLIONS.
The First 2 Hellions should immediately head towards the Protoss base. The next 2 join them. If your harass is denied keep attempting damage, try running by, try droping them and running by, just keep the aggression up.
KEEP roasting and flaming those tasty probes.
If it gets to the late game you can always use hellions to reach unprotected bases when the protoss is out of position and transform them into hellbats.. Blue Flame Hellbats will kill Nexi pretty fast.
This style is fun to play.
while you want to be very aggressive, I found there to be a single exception and that is going straight for damage with the first 2 hellions, more often than not protoss will have produced enough to deal with 2 as you had to tech up to factory, but with the production capability's of your reactored factory you will catch up fast.
most of the time the first 2 hellions won't trade super effectively, but can give you lots of intel thank to their mobility, when you reach 4 hellions you can lose one and still 1 hit probes, making it far better than sending them in pairs of 2.
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I have found that a super early Thor against an all in 1 base play from protoss can be extremely difficult for them to deal with. They suck late game though.
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How do you guys all open up? 1/1/1?
I'm lookong for a stable, scouting based opener with a fast transition to mech. Gonna try that shot out :D!
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On July 23 2014 17:13 SC2Toastie wrote:
How do you guys all open up? 1/1/1?
I'm lookong for a stable, scouting based opener with a fast transition to mech. Gonna try that shot out :D!
I do a reaper opener with WM drop while expanding if they get stalker and/or MSC before expand.
switch up factory with rax and start a viking if I do/can't scout a stargate or just straight up to a tech lab.
I've been getting ravens out if they don't get a port. (actually not bad harass if there is good air space behind mineral lines)
Then the usual 3 facts while getting the 3rd CC. and starting the 4,5th right after the OC finishes.
However, I love the gasless 1/1/1 into hellion/marine/medvac elevatoring up to the main in TvT. It transitions well into mech if you start your natural as you are moving out with 8 marines/3 hellions/medvac.
Get super greedy and go reactor before the 1st marine (the hellion comes out by the time reaper gets in your base unless proxied)
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Gasless 1/1/1?? Gas first I assume?
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On July 24 2014 09:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
Gasless 1/1/1?? Gas first I assume?
Yes. Sorry for miss type.
I honestly don't see the point of going anything but gas first in TvT unless you are opening reapers. Even against reaper openings FE can be severely punished with good control while gas first times out perfectly to push back reaper opening TvT play.
Plus you hit the earliest banshee/medvac timing possible.
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Awesome thread 19Meavis93!
This is the direction mech has to go IMO to be fun for everyone including spectators. Aggressive with lots of harass, and not super turtle Thor/ Raven, etc.
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With this build I killed 73 probes in just one game. Thank you Meavis and keep up this work and the mapmaking.
Can you reupload those replays?
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On July 20 2014 11:43 Mnijykmirl wrote:
I don't see why you insist so much on starting off with reactor Hellion over reactor Widow Mine. I'll start from an assumption: we're going to focus our TvP around armory-upgraded units aka mech and the merits of bio are not important for the rest of the discussion. Our goal is to win games with these mech units.
I agree that the guiding opening to mech is gas first fast reactor factory. Now instead of just jumping straight to hellion, let's consider the range of options: 2xHellion-Hellion, or 2xWidow Mine-Widow Mine, or Hellion-Hellion then Widow Mine-Widow Mine, or Widow Mine-Widow Mine then Hellion-Hellion, or 2x Hellion-Widow Mine or any other combination of.
Building 4 Hellion has potential for tons of econ damage, and can punish greedy Protoss builds with lots of probe cook, I agree. But we're looking to either win or get the maximum amount of the situation, I can see numerous reasons to utilize Widow Mines just as early. Snagging the first couple stalker or zealot out of their gateways can scare early protoss aggression significantly while driving the Protoss towards detection. That could provide a window to expand more aggressively, or hide and set up a surprise timing attack. With a combination of Hellion and Widow Mines, it's possible to eat stalker/MSC shots or kite zealots with Hellion for Widow Mines to burrow in more aggressive positions. Lastly, 2 Widow Mine shots will kill a MSC to prevent a Nexus Overcharge or MSC aggression or even be positioned on probes before Nexus Overcharge and deal economic damage anyway.
I think a more calculated approach on map, map position, general gameplan as Terran in TvP, and scouting of the enemy Protoss should determine the first units out of a factory, rather than a dead-set focus on Hellion.
I have some experience with early mine aggression. But any competent Protoss will just bait shots out of your widow mines with 1 probe. If you kill the first scouting Stalker which happens pretty often since protoss are so used to their first stalker on the map being invincible, then they make sure as hell that your mines dont get to their mineral lines. Ofc you can expand and they'll be scared to go into the map. However i've always felt that having mines and not enough units is like lacking a backbone in your army.
The Hammer build incorporates widow mines and gets them in a nice synergy with Marauders and Concussive Shell. Even if your mines die/do nothing, you still have something beefy to back them up, keep pushing or go back to if defended.
I've had mixed results with Hellion Mine, but i will try pure mines . I have the feeling that this will turn into a defensive build which i honestly hate. I hate letting Protoss dictate your every move.
I just love this opener because it makes the boring TvP matchup fun! Terran gets to outmicro Protoss super hard on the early game to then kind of amove them with mech.
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Have to agree with the above concerning mines.
as for another topic, replays should be available again.
though there is a problem with adding more, the situation is as following and it has been a recurring one for me since hots.
I don't play a whole lot of games per season relative to other players, usually in the 20-60 range, and often in bursts.
this lets MMR decay grab hold of me, and when I place the next season, tadaa diamond.
then suddenly there is this huge barrier of 100diamond players you have to go through to get respectable games again, most of these games are walkovers, but still incredibly time consuming.
now I find myself lacking in motivation to grind through, and get some master level replays for you guys.
I can however upload a bunch of diamond level opponents, which may look rather onesided, but makes for some filler material to the guide.
so basically I want to ask your opinion on if I should include these or not.
also if you have any replays yourself against master+ level I would like to include those.
+ Show Spoiler [red bull qualifier] +another thing I might include is supernova's game against MC in the red bull qualifier on Sejong, where he made great use of multi pronged harass to build up his infrastructure and eventually win the game by deflecting MC's pushes. (maybe a commentary video even?)
I'm still willing to keep the guide updated, I just lack the motivation to play myself right now.
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Hi all, here are my 2 cents about gas 1st reactor hellion into Mech TvP <3 <3 <3
I am cutting a bit of gas to get an earlier CC. Build is mineral heavy.
very clean replay, master level : gas 1st hellions TvP vs 1g expand into oracle
build order : 10 depot (wall) 12gas 14rax à la lagforce.
15 scout
17 factory asap @100 gas + OC
@44 gas send 2 scvs away from gas (one to the wall, one to mineral) and reactor asap @50gas
I build both 2nd depot (stop @10%) and start 3rd depot aswell to finish WALL (3'30) + shift click scv to build both in a row.
Having 1 scv left mining gas gives you 50 gas at 4'25 when factory and reactor are finished, SO if I scout an early starport or 6 probes mining gas I change my plan and go straight to 2x defensive widow mines as first units then 4 hellions.
But usually I go straight 2x hellions, CC in base to be safe, then 2x more hellions (or 4 hellions then CC)
and back to mining gas.
starport + 2x widow mines as 3rd production cycle.
land CC at natural and take 3rd and 4th gas
then i usually build 2nd factory and 2nd starport both with techlabs. dumping my gas into 2xbanshees production, cloack, raven defensive tanks, armory > +1 and blue flamme. later I build 3rd factory+reactor on rax to switch with one of my starport on it (2x viking).
I aim to some swiss knife composition with banshees raven tanks thors BF hellbat viking and +1 attack
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The Probe issue with Mines can be fixed by manually targeting with the Mines before they go off. If need be, you can repeatedly click the Probe until another unit comes in range or you can simply unburrow it since if you can't target another unit he most likely doesn't have one in range to kill the Mine before it burrows again.
Now, Mines followed up by Hellions is pretty nifty. If you kill a Stalker, you will likely get a few Hellions in. He has to wall off with units unless he wants to kill a Pylon or make Sentries, which means you can either kill the Stalkers with the Mines (tanking hits with your Hellions to allow your Mines to burrow) and then run the Hellions in, or you can delay his natural mining by quite a bit. It's almost like a Terran Baneling bust. If you can sneak a Hammer-style Conc Shells Marauder in, then he has even more trouble walling.
Mines don't have to be defensive as some might say. Of course, if the Protoss is being very aggressive and you have no Hellions, it might be better to let the Protoss have to attack into your Mines, but if you can get just a handful of Hellions out, then you can force the Protoss to commit at least some units into defense. If you can get Drilling Claws and some Vikings out, it's very easy to be aggressive vs Protoss since you can scan-kill Observers and burrow before your Mines die. It's not quite as mobile as mass Hellions and you might have to leapfrog your Mines sometimes (though this is more important vs enemy Bio and LBM than it is vs Protoss), but it's much more mobile than traditional Mech.
Mine/Tank with some air support can leapfrog forward aggressively as well and it's more synergistic than pure Mines. It is less mobile, falling between pure Mines and traditional Mech, but it can still be aggressive (see: Mario).
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I've taken this aggressive mech to heart and I have a dominating win rate in TvP.
+ Show Spoiler +Refinery #1 @ 11
Barracks @ 13
[A]SCV Scout
Orbital Command @ 16
Factory #1
Reactor on Barracks, Swap with Factory #1 when complete -> Hellions x4
Pull SCVs out of gas @ 26 gas remaining
[B]4x Hellions can kill first Zealot, Stalker, run by to mineral lines, Scout for T2 tech building
Expand #1
Widow Mine x1 -> Hellions/Widow Mines
SCVs in gas
Factory #2 -> Widow Mines/Hellions
Expand #2
Refinery #2
Starport -> Vikings
Refinery #3
Tech lab on Factory #2 -> Siege Tanks
Ghost Academy
Tech Lab on Barracks -> Ghosts
Refinery #4
Factory #3, Tech lab on Factory #3 -> Siege Tanks
Refinery #5
Factory #4, Tech lab on Factory #4 -> Siege Tanks
Refinery #6
Factory #5, Tech lab on Factory #5 -> Siege Tanks
Armory -> Weapon Upgrades
Research Pre-Igniters
[C] Scan or Scout for additional expansions, Fleet Beacon, multiple Stargates
*Get Engineering Bay + Turrets any time detection for Dark Templar is needed
@~177 total supply available
Stop all SCV production
Build 3 more Orbital Commands
Build at least 2 more Factory with Reactor and Tech lab, 1 more Starport w/ Reactor
The reactive part of the build:
+ Show Spoiler +If [A]SCV Scout scouts:
Protoss natural expansion - > continue to double expand.
If Protoss does not expand -> cut second expand, cut build order from Factory #4 through Factory #5
If [B] Hellion scouts Twilight
Do not suicide Hellions, walk Widow Mines and Hellions into Protoss base, scout for hidden Pylons on the map to deny warp-ins.
If [B]Hellion scouts does not scout Robotics or Twilight, or scouts Stargate
Place 1st Widow Mine in main mineral line for Oracle, then do as below as if scouted Robotics
If [B] Hellion scouts Robotics
Position Hellions + Widow Mine + Viking outside their natural. Keep 1 scan available. Scan and snipe Observers, walking Widow Mines and Hellions forward/backwards for time.
If [C] Protoss expands to 3 base
Push down 3rd once Armory completes for Hellbat transform.
If [C] Protoss is using Stargate units
Build additional Starport, Reactor on both Starports, cut back Siege Tank production for Hellions/Widow Mines instead as needed.
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This was my favorite TvT build when people called it the iEchoic build. It was also my favorite TvP build in WoL. I'm glad it still works.
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another thing I might include is supernova's game against MC in the red bull qualifier on Sejong, where he made great use of multi pronged harass to build up his infrastructure and eventually win the game by deflecting MC's pushes. (maybe a commentary video even?)
Is there a replay somewhere ?
Would be very helpfull for a newbe in mec style!I
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Technically speaking, it only takes 3 hellions to one shot probes. Is there merit to going 2 hellions => 1 hellion 1widow mine => full hellion production as a way to stay safe from wonky play?
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On September 14 2014 01:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Technically speaking, it only takes 3 hellions to one shot probes. Is there merit to going 2 hellions => 1 hellion 1widow mine => full hellion production as a way to stay safe from wonky play?
I've worked on this a lot. You can produce 4 Hellions, then a widow mine, and be safe from oracles. 4 Hellions can kill a Zealot and a Stalker just fine. While 3 one-shot probes, I think you'll always get better results from 4 because you can lose one Hellion to MSC or Stalker and still have 3. 2 Hellions -> 1 Hellion 1 Widow Mine might be still very good though, I'm not sure.
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I'm a 4 hellion man myself ever since I used the iechoic build in WoL. But my mechanics are bad and my game sense is off, so I was curious if there was a "safer" sequence for us lowbies lol.
So for I've won 5/5 games with it, but I'm too low a rank to count since all my wins have been killing 10-20+ workers with the first 4 hellions. Not exactly the best statistic to glean information from.
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Been using this build in tvt and TvZ as well as TvP. Very very promising for low leaguers like me. Will post my detailed thoughts on this tomorrow once I've written it up.
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Hm, suprised to hear so, while my TvT opener is somewhat similar but more flexible as terran counter aggression is a bit easier to stop, I have poor success with gas first hellions in TvZ.
it might catch the occasional zerg off-guard but it's hard to make it work inconstantly.
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http://drop.sc/387411
http://drop.sc/387412
gas 1st hellion TvP vs oracle play, deflected thx to mine
into 2 port banshee raven marines hellions/hellbats à la iEchoic !
love my transition to finish the game rapidly <3
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Could you repost the replays? I'm having trouble downloading them and I wanna do something different in TvP thx?
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EPT
