There's been a new sensational build as of late with the removal of the Transformation Servos upgrade: "Some Kind of Mass Hellbat All-in". Oh noz. Luckily, Effort created a beautiful anti-hellbat build which incorporates overlord speed, roaches, and later on a nydus to scout, deflect the attack, then turn around and crush the Terran player. So, without further ado:
9 overlord 15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool 17 overlord @100% pool -> zerglings x2, queen x2 @100 gas -> zergling speed **pull 2 drones off of gas** 25 overlord 28 queen 32 overlord 42 overlord **overlord poke @6:00** IF DENIED -> @6:00 -> start overlord speed + roach warren Add 2nd gas + put drones back on gas @7:00 -> double overlord scout Add 3rd gas @7:15 -> 3rd hatchery + lair Start queen/roach production
After holding pressure:
Add 4th gas Start nydus network Start overlord drops (optional)
First thing to note, this is simply a variant of standard play. If Effort scouts with his initial overlord and gets a full read, he can simply take a 3rd at the standard time (6:15) and continue to play a normal macro game. Additionally, after holding your opponent's pressure, you can opt to simply saturate your 3rd base and continue with a roach/ling based mid game instead of following up with an all-in. You don't even have to go roach/queen, you can defend with banelings and go into two-base muta instead, etc.. That said, there are a lot of branches to this build, making it very interesting and possibly even a little bit deceptive at times.
In this particular game, Maru goes for an odd marine/hellbat/banshee attack that hits at 9:00. There are some incredibly early pressures that hit at 8:00 (8 hellbats/2 medivacs), but this build can scout and defend them in time as well. The main things that Effort is looking for when he's scouting into the Terran main at 6:00 and 7:00 are:
The presence of a 3rd CC
The configuration of buildings
The add-ons
The first piece of the puzzle is whether or not the Terran has a 3rd CC. Simply put, the presence of a 3rd CC means that there is unlikely to be any pressure before 10:00. However, if there's no CC around, that generally means that the minerals are being spent elsewhere and indicate some kind of 2-base pressure that hits before 10:00. The second piece of scouting info is the configuration of buildings, that is, the number of barracks, factories, and starports. Very often, the configuration is either 3 barracks or a 1-1-1 combination, but there are a few other combinations including double barracks or double factories instead. Knowing the configuration of buildings helps you understand the kind of threat that's on the way, whether it's a CS pressure, standard hellion/banshee, mine drops, 2fact BFH, etc., etc. The final piece of scouting is which add-ons the Terran player has. The most common configuration is 1 reactor and 1 tech lab, which generally powers hellion/banshee or hellions -> fast stim. 2 reactors signifies aggression and typically has to do with hellbat timings; this is the biggest thing we're looking for with these new hellbat builds!
Effort delays his 3rd base in favor of more gas and a slightly faster lair (which is never a bad idea against 2-base aggression). Once he finds out what he's up against, he starts roach/queen production to deflect the attack, which he does quite easily.
NYDUS WORMUHHHHHH!!!!
After the attack, Effort is sitting on 50 drones but has 3 bases up and a lair complete. From here he can either counterattack with his roaches while using queens for defense and droning hard or he can opt for a more aggressive options: the nydus network. In this particular case, Effort felt that he was far enough ahead to make a nydus network work, but he could have just as easily continued on a macro track. This nydus network option makes a lot of sense because Effort just has a bunch of queens and roaches now, lair tech, and the Terran is just now getting his delayed infrastructure up, especially if he opted to go 3rd CC into upgrades AND THEN into extra rax or factories. The optional overlord drops I mentioned in the build can be used to more reliably make your nydus work. It allows you to drop 5-6 overlords full of queens/roaches while simultaneously protecting the nydus worm as it goes up. Again, this makes sense because you already have overlord speed researched and a bunch of queens and roaches out.
All in all, it's a good build that makes a lot of sense. I highly recommend it to anyone who is having a lot of trouble with these types of early hellbat builds (which is mostly everyone). Good luck, have fun! And let me know if there are any questions!
On June 11 2014 05:09 varsovie wrote: So what you say is less greed, more scouting, react to what you see and if can't see, scout more and less greed....
Scouting information is a valuable resource, can't have everything for free
9 overlord 15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool 17 overlord @100% pool -> zerglings x2, queen x2 @100 gas -> zergling speed **pull 2 drones off of gas** 25 overlord 28 queen 32 overlord 42 overlord **overlord poke @6:00** IF DENIED -> @6:00 -> start overlord speed + roach warren @7:00 -> double overlord scout Add 3rd gas @7:15 -> 3rd hatchery + lair Start queen/roach production
After holding pressure:
Add 4th gas Start nydus network Start overlord drops (optional)
_
Where is the second gas :o
Oh, I apologize, it's right after his overlord gets denied. He starts overlord speed/roach warren/2nd gas all around the same time. I'll edit that in the OP though!
Granted, in his game against Maru, he actually starts the second gas before his overlord scout, indicating that he was probably planning on some kind of roach pressure or 2-base lair play...but the build works just the same if you do the 2nd gas as a response.
Seriously SC2John, you rock ! I've read a lot of your guides and it really helped me developp my skills as a Non-Cheesy Random Player. Keep up the good work ! It's awesome !
how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
This match was less than 24 hours ago. I'd imagine it would take some testing to get that transition down efficiently.
So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
Nonono. As you see, you do an overlord scout at 6:00, which is a normal scout timing anyway. If it gets denied and you CANNOT get information, it's likely some kind of two-base play which the Terran is actively trying to deny scouting information of, in which case getting overlord speed and a blind roach warren is pretty safe. There is the possibility that your opponent is just hiding a very well-placed 3rd CC and he inefficiently built a few marines in order to deny the overlord, but we can assume you'll have good enough vision coverage and enough scouting info to rule that out most of the time.
If you scout normally at 6:00 and see normal stuff, just continue on with your normal strategy! Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but this build diverges heavily based on this very important timing.
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
Obviously, there aren't very super specific numbers yet, but transitioning into muta/ling/bling should be quite simple: add double evo, a baneling nest, and a spire while saturating your third base and taking a 4th as money allows.
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
To be honest, I actually don't think Zergs need to change their openings too drastically to deal with these new threats. After doing some talking with Jowj, we both agreed that the primary issues are simply: 1) getting a definite scout of a 3rd CC vs. 2-base pressure and 2) not being too greedy with gas. That said, any 2-base pressures that are scouted can easily be deflected with a 6:30 baneling nest/roach warren and necessary static defense (and delayed upgrades). 3-base dedicated pressure all comes after 10:00, and can be deflected easily with either roach/ling or ling/bling. For the latter, you simply need to make sure you have the amount of units necessary RIGHT AT 10:00 or you're going to get steamrolled by some of these new hellbat timings (most people wait until they see units walking across the map or until they see hellions transforming to start making units). It's possible that we MAY see a blind baneling nest before upgrades as kind of a safety net for earlier attacks, but I doubt Zergs will really need to deviate that much as long as they're scouting well.
Jowj believes it's possible to defend all 2-base pressure with earlier spines (~7:30-8:00) and ling/queen, but I'm a little bit skeptical of this one.
If I have not scouted a 3rd CC with my 6:00 ovie scout, I have actually been getting a ~6:40 bane nest alongside my 2 evo's and I continue queen production. The idea is to get up to 5-6 queens and have around 8-10 banes or more depending on his army. You need to get your creep spread to your third however for this otherwise its really hard to get good engagements on the army but most players can get that creep spread going! I have not deviated into roaches as often they bring marauders with or lots of marines and I find the roaches struggle to hold very well but I don't think my roach opener was very optimized but yeah I still think you can hold these pushes with ling/queen/bane just if he has medivacs with, focus fire them with your queens!
However this build looks awesome and I am sure to give it a go!
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
I think people make too big a deal out of being 'slightly behind'. Sure, if you get a little bit behind Polt or Hyun, they will flatten you because they're not going to sacrifice that lead, but especially on ladder, the killer instinct and mechanics aren't nearly as good. I will take being slightly behind with excellent information over blind leads that I'm coinflipping on every single day of the week. This is, after all, a strategy game - information is absolutely key to victory.
I'm really impressed with this build. Specifically, I wonder why more Zerg players don't leave themselves the option like Effort does of going fast 2-base Lair tech and catching up with a greedy fourth after the late third. Whenever I see a build like that, it always seems like such a difficult read for the Terran to make (is it Mutas? Roach/Bane bust? Nydus? etc.) and when the third does get taken off the back of that pressure, it's nearly always uncontested.
Speaking as a Terran player, I wonder if the best counter move in this scenario is to just ensure it ISN'T two-base Muta, park 2 Medivacs with Hellbats near the natural and building third, and then just take my own third, punishing the Zerg with many roasty Drones if they try to counter. This build from Terran transitions easily into either mech or bio, so you can grab Siege Tanks to defend Roach play while teching up. I'd love to see a longer-form game where there are a bunch of headfakes like that back and forth between the Zerg and Terran players.
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
Nonono. As you see, you do an overlord scout at 6:00, which is a normal scout timing anyway. If it gets denied and you CANNOT get information, it's likely some kind of two-base play which the Terran is actively trying to deny scouting information of, in which case getting overlord speed and a blind roach warren is pretty safe. There is the possibility that your opponent is just hiding a very well-placed 3rd CC and he inefficiently built a few marines in order to deny the overlord, but we can assume you'll have good enough vision coverage and enough scouting info to rule that out most of the time.
If you scout normally at 6:00 and see normal stuff, just continue on with your normal strategy! Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but this build diverges heavily based on this very important timing.
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
Obviously, there aren't very super specific numbers yet, but transitioning into muta/ling/bling should be quite simple: add double evo, a baneling nest, and a spire while saturating your third base and taking a 4th as money allows.
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
To be honest, I actually don't think Zergs need to change their openings too drastically to deal with these new threats. After doing some talking with Jowj, we both agreed that the primary issues are simply: 1) getting a definite scout of a 3rd CC vs. 2-base pressure and 2) not being too greedy with gas. That said, any 2-base pressures that are scouted can easily be deflected with a 6:30 baneling nest/roach warren and necessary static defense (and delayed upgrades). 3-base dedicated pressure all comes after 10:00, and can be deflected easily with either roach/ling or ling/bling. For the latter, you simply need to make sure you have the amount of units necessary RIGHT AT 10:00 or you're going to get steamrolled by some of these new hellbat timings (most people wait until they see units walking across the map or until they see hellions transforming to start making units). It's possible that we MAY see a blind baneling nest before upgrades as kind of a safety net for earlier attacks, but I doubt Zergs will really need to deviate that much as long as they're scouting well.
Jowj believes it's possible to defend all 2-base pressure with earlier spines (~7:30-8:00) and ling/queen, but I'm a little bit skeptical of this one.
the bold is wrong.
http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/537754262 2:19:00 dedicated pressure that is hitting with 8 hellbats and 5 marines a full minute earlier than 10 minutes off of fast 3CC
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
Nonono. As you see, you do an overlord scout at 6:00, which is a normal scout timing anyway. If it gets denied and you CANNOT get information, it's likely some kind of two-base play which the Terran is actively trying to deny scouting information of, in which case getting overlord speed and a blind roach warren is pretty safe. There is the possibility that your opponent is just hiding a very well-placed 3rd CC and he inefficiently built a few marines in order to deny the overlord, but we can assume you'll have good enough vision coverage and enough scouting info to rule that out most of the time.
If you scout normally at 6:00 and see normal stuff, just continue on with your normal strategy! Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but this build diverges heavily based on this very important timing.
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
Obviously, there aren't very super specific numbers yet, but transitioning into muta/ling/bling should be quite simple: add double evo, a baneling nest, and a spire while saturating your third base and taking a 4th as money allows.
On June 11 2014 10:57 Waise wrote:
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
To be honest, I actually don't think Zergs need to change their openings too drastically to deal with these new threats. After doing some talking with Jowj, we both agreed that the primary issues are simply: 1) getting a definite scout of a 3rd CC vs. 2-base pressure and 2) not being too greedy with gas. That said, any 2-base pressures that are scouted can easily be deflected with a 6:30 baneling nest/roach warren and necessary static defense (and delayed upgrades). 3-base dedicated pressure all comes after 10:00, and can be deflected easily with either roach/ling or ling/bling. For the latter, you simply need to make sure you have the amount of units necessary RIGHT AT 10:00 or you're going to get steamrolled by some of these new hellbat timings (most people wait until they see units walking across the map or until they see hellions transforming to start making units). It's possible that we MAY see a blind baneling nest before upgrades as kind of a safety net for earlier attacks, but I doubt Zergs will really need to deviate that much as long as they're scouting well.
Jowj believes it's possible to defend all 2-base pressure with earlier spines (~7:30-8:00) and ling/queen, but I'm a little bit skeptical of this one.
the bold is wrong.
http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/537754262 2:19:00 dedicated pressure that is hitting with 8 hellbats and 5 marines a full minute earlier than 10 minutes off of fast 3CC
First of all, that is a sick fucking build by Innovation. The fact that he has 3CCs and still hits at 9:00 with hellbats WITH STIM FINISHED and his upgrades already on the way and his additional barracks finished is...ridiculous.
So, with that, I'm willing to amend that number to 9:00, since that's about when the reaper/hellion/banshee poke hits as well. To be fair, I think pressure like this is easily thwarted if Zerg isn't too careless with their queens and doesn't skip out on a spine crawler (with ling/bling). I think the biggest issue for Life in this game was the fact that he was doing a counter pressure and had just morphed in 13 banelings and was unable to morph in more back at home. But 14 banes at home...yeah, this thing's gonna get shut down hard.
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
Nonono. As you see, you do an overlord scout at 6:00, which is a normal scout timing anyway. If it gets denied and you CANNOT get information, it's likely some kind of two-base play which the Terran is actively trying to deny scouting information of, in which case getting overlord speed and a blind roach warren is pretty safe. There is the possibility that your opponent is just hiding a very well-placed 3rd CC and he inefficiently built a few marines in order to deny the overlord, but we can assume you'll have good enough vision coverage and enough scouting info to rule that out most of the time.
If you scout normally at 6:00 and see normal stuff, just continue on with your normal strategy! Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but this build diverges heavily based on this very important timing.
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
Obviously, there aren't very super specific numbers yet, but transitioning into muta/ling/bling should be quite simple: add double evo, a baneling nest, and a spire while saturating your third base and taking a 4th as money allows.
On June 11 2014 10:57 Waise wrote:
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
To be honest, I actually don't think Zergs need to change their openings too drastically to deal with these new threats. After doing some talking with Jowj, we both agreed that the primary issues are simply: 1) getting a definite scout of a 3rd CC vs. 2-base pressure and 2) not being too greedy with gas. That said, any 2-base pressures that are scouted can easily be deflected with a 6:30 baneling nest/roach warren and necessary static defense (and delayed upgrades). 3-base dedicated pressure all comes after 10:00, and can be deflected easily with either roach/ling or ling/bling. For the latter, you simply need to make sure you have the amount of units necessary RIGHT AT 10:00 or you're going to get steamrolled by some of these new hellbat timings (most people wait until they see units walking across the map or until they see hellions transforming to start making units). It's possible that we MAY see a blind baneling nest before upgrades as kind of a safety net for earlier attacks, but I doubt Zergs will really need to deviate that much as long as they're scouting well.
Jowj believes it's possible to defend all 2-base pressure with earlier spines (~7:30-8:00) and ling/queen, but I'm a little bit skeptical of this one.
the bold is wrong.
http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/537754262 2:19:00 dedicated pressure that is hitting with 8 hellbats and 5 marines a full minute earlier than 10 minutes off of fast 3CC
First of all, that is a sick fucking build by Innovation. The fact that he has 3CCs and still hits at 9:00 with hellbats WITH STIM FINISHED and his upgrades already on the way and his additional barracks finished is...ridiculous.
So, with that, I'm willing to amend that number to 9:00, since that's about when the reaper/hellion/banshee poke hits as well. To be fair, I think pressure like this is easily thwarted if Zerg isn't too careless with their queens and doesn't skip out on a spine crawler (with ling/bling). I think the biggest issue for Life in this game was the fact that he was doing a counter pressure and had just morphed in 13 banelings and was unable to morph in more back at home. But 14 banes at home...yeah, this thing's gonna get shut down hard.
well, i just posted it as i was watching, innovation ends up doing these hellbat timings the following 2 games as well. THe biggest problem seems to be differentiating when hellbats are coming and when its just hellino pressure, because he doesn't add an armory until right before he moves out, a nd the difference between defending 8 hellions vs 8 hellbats + marine poke out is pretty huge
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
Nonono. As you see, you do an overlord scout at 6:00, which is a normal scout timing anyway. If it gets denied and you CANNOT get information, it's likely some kind of two-base play which the Terran is actively trying to deny scouting information of, in which case getting overlord speed and a blind roach warren is pretty safe. There is the possibility that your opponent is just hiding a very well-placed 3rd CC and he inefficiently built a few marines in order to deny the overlord, but we can assume you'll have good enough vision coverage and enough scouting info to rule that out most of the time.
If you scout normally at 6:00 and see normal stuff, just continue on with your normal strategy! Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but this build diverges heavily based on this very important timing.
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
Obviously, there aren't very super specific numbers yet, but transitioning into muta/ling/bling should be quite simple: add double evo, a baneling nest, and a spire while saturating your third base and taking a 4th as money allows.
On June 11 2014 10:57 Waise wrote:
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
To be honest, I actually don't think Zergs need to change their openings too drastically to deal with these new threats. After doing some talking with Jowj, we both agreed that the primary issues are simply: 1) getting a definite scout of a 3rd CC vs. 2-base pressure and 2) not being too greedy with gas. That said, any 2-base pressures that are scouted can easily be deflected with a 6:30 baneling nest/roach warren and necessary static defense (and delayed upgrades). 3-base dedicated pressure all comes after 10:00, and can be deflected easily with either roach/ling or ling/bling. For the latter, you simply need to make sure you have the amount of units necessary RIGHT AT 10:00 or you're going to get steamrolled by some of these new hellbat timings (most people wait until they see units walking across the map or until they see hellions transforming to start making units). It's possible that we MAY see a blind baneling nest before upgrades as kind of a safety net for earlier attacks, but I doubt Zergs will really need to deviate that much as long as they're scouting well.
Jowj believes it's possible to defend all 2-base pressure with earlier spines (~7:30-8:00) and ling/queen, but I'm a little bit skeptical of this one.
the bold is wrong.
http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/537754262 2:19:00 dedicated pressure that is hitting with 8 hellbats and 5 marines a full minute earlier than 10 minutes off of fast 3CC
First of all, that is a sick fucking build by Innovation. The fact that he has 3CCs and still hits at 9:00 with hellbats WITH STIM FINISHED and his upgrades already on the way and his additional barracks finished is...ridiculous.
So, with that, I'm willing to amend that number to 9:00, since that's about when the reaper/hellion/banshee poke hits as well. To be fair, I think pressure like this is easily thwarted if Zerg isn't too careless with their queens and doesn't skip out on a spine crawler (with ling/bling). I think the biggest issue for Life in this game was the fact that he was doing a counter pressure and had just morphed in 13 banelings and was unable to morph in more back at home. But 14 banes at home...yeah, this thing's gonna get shut down hard.
well, i just posted it as i was watching, innovation ends up doing these hellbat timings the following 2 games as well. THe biggest problem seems to be differentiating when hellbats are coming and when its just hellino pressure, because he doesn't add an armory until right before he moves out, a nd the difference between defending 8 hellions vs 8 hellbats + marine poke out is pretty huge
That's a good point. Part I of "Fuck Me, Hellbats are Strong" is over and now we're settling into the second part of it, which is "What is Difference Between Hellions and Hellbats? One Fucks With You While The Other One Fucks You Over".
Not entirely sure what can be done scouting wise...maybe we'll just have to start having a couple of roaches or banes ready just in case.
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
Nonono. As you see, you do an overlord scout at 6:00, which is a normal scout timing anyway. If it gets denied and you CANNOT get information, it's likely some kind of two-base play which the Terran is actively trying to deny scouting information of, in which case getting overlord speed and a blind roach warren is pretty safe. There is the possibility that your opponent is just hiding a very well-placed 3rd CC and he inefficiently built a few marines in order to deny the overlord, but we can assume you'll have good enough vision coverage and enough scouting info to rule that out most of the time.
If you scout normally at 6:00 and see normal stuff, just continue on with your normal strategy! Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough, but this build diverges heavily based on this very important timing.
On June 11 2014 07:48 mooseman1710 wrote: how can i transition this to ling bling muta if there is a bio followup? i guess evo chamber/bane nest timing would be the info needed. how many defensive roaches can we make before we are behind if he doesnt commit to a push?
Obviously, there aren't very super specific numbers yet, but transitioning into muta/ling/bling should be quite simple: add double evo, a baneling nest, and a spire while saturating your third base and taking a 4th as money allows.
On June 11 2014 10:57 Waise wrote:
On June 11 2014 08:54 LarDonG wrote: So nice job John !! But we have to keep in mind that Effort expected this kind of strategy, if we do this blindly on ladder we will be slightly behind economicly...
opening with defensive roaches has been seen at pro level before to defend hellion harass / be safe against blue flame / mindgame terran into expecting aggression. yes, it's less optimal economically, but that's the point of the patch. zerg has to invest more now to be safe. as a zerg player i think it's quite fair and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
To be honest, I actually don't think Zergs need to change their openings too drastically to deal with these new threats. After doing some talking with Jowj, we both agreed that the primary issues are simply: 1) getting a definite scout of a 3rd CC vs. 2-base pressure and 2) not being too greedy with gas. That said, any 2-base pressures that are scouted can easily be deflected with a 6:30 baneling nest/roach warren and necessary static defense (and delayed upgrades). 3-base dedicated pressure all comes after 10:00, and can be deflected easily with either roach/ling or ling/bling. For the latter, you simply need to make sure you have the amount of units necessary RIGHT AT 10:00 or you're going to get steamrolled by some of these new hellbat timings (most people wait until they see units walking across the map or until they see hellions transforming to start making units). It's possible that we MAY see a blind baneling nest before upgrades as kind of a safety net for earlier attacks, but I doubt Zergs will really need to deviate that much as long as they're scouting well.
Jowj believes it's possible to defend all 2-base pressure with earlier spines (~7:30-8:00) and ling/queen, but I'm a little bit skeptical of this one.
the bold is wrong.
http://www.twitch.tv/dragon/b/537754262 2:19:00 dedicated pressure that is hitting with 8 hellbats and 5 marines a full minute earlier than 10 minutes off of fast 3CC
First of all, that is a sick fucking build by Innovation. The fact that he has 3CCs and still hits at 9:00 with hellbats WITH STIM FINISHED and his upgrades already on the way and his additional barracks finished is...ridiculous.
So, with that, I'm willing to amend that number to 9:00, since that's about when the reaper/hellion/banshee poke hits as well. To be fair, I think pressure like this is easily thwarted if Zerg isn't too careless with their queens and doesn't skip out on a spine crawler (with ling/bling). I think the biggest issue for Life in this game was the fact that he was doing a counter pressure and had just morphed in 13 banelings and was unable to morph in more back at home. But 14 banes at home...yeah, this thing's gonna get shut down hard.
well, i just posted it as i was watching, innovation ends up doing these hellbat timings the following 2 games as well. THe biggest problem seems to be differentiating when hellbats are coming and when its just hellino pressure, because he doesn't add an armory until right before he moves out, a nd the difference between defending 8 hellions vs 8 hellbats + marine poke out is pretty huge
That's a good point. Part I of "Fuck Me, Hellbats are Strong" is over and now we're settling into the second part of it, which is "What is Difference Between Hellions and Hellbats? One Fucks With You While The Other One Fucks You Over".
Not entirely sure what can be done scouting wise...maybe we'll just have to start having a couple of roaches or banes ready just in case.
Coming Soon: Hellbats Part III "When We Don't Build Hellbats, It Fucks With Your Mind, So When We Build Hellbats, You Go Fuck Me All Over Again"
I am pretty sure that in the Group Stage 3 of DH, the final game between JD and Bunny for Group F. JD did this build (or something similar) in games 1 and 3! Will post vods when they are up!
On June 16 2014 00:54 v0rtex wrote: I am pretty sure that in the Group Stage 3 of DH, the final game between JD and Bunny for Group F. JD did this build (or something similar) in games 1 and 3! Will post vods when they are up!
I had thought that was basically a roach opening on 3 bases, but I'll check to make sure. Jaedong has been doing a lot of these roach openers with a lot of counterattacks to force the Hellions to stay home, so maybe that's a potential way to deal with these attacks.
I thought so too but it just seemed like he got his 3rd at around the same time as this build (~7:15) instead of the normal 6:10-6:30 and also the RW/Evo chamber and in game 3 he also got the ovie speed when denied scouting but I could definitely be wrong. Will look at the vods when they are released!
Sorry for being plat but is scouting @6:00 and seeing a barrack+tech lab upgrading something with a factory+reactor producing hellions considered standard play?
I'm having difficulty deciding to effort build or not to effort build @ the 6min mark because I'm completely paranoid now then I would usually end up behind economically. Seeing the building config that I just said, should I go effort build if my overlord poke @6:00 got denied halfway and was not able to spot a 3rd CC?
On June 19 2014 11:09 Reki wrote: Sorry for being plat but is scouting @6:00 and seeing a barrack+tech lab upgrading something with a factory+reactor producing hellions considered standard play?
I'm having difficulty deciding to effort build or not to effort build @ the 6min mark because I'm completely paranoid now then I would usually end up behind economically. Seeing the building config that I just said, should I go effort build if my overlord poke @6:00 got denied halfway and was not able to spot a 3rd CC?
That's a pretty standard setup (reactor/techlab + fact/reactor), sometimes with a starport. In general, the only time you should really be doing the Effort build is if you really feel like something is up, and, in particular, if there isn't a 3rd CC. Effort's build delays the 3rd hatchery in favor of faster tech, which, in general helps you out A LOT for dealing with 2-base pressure builds like CS timings, BFH hellion timings, early hellbat timings, widow mine drops, etc. If you're finding yourself falling behind a lot in most of your games, just fall back to normal 3-hatch play. If you find yourself dying a lot to 2-base pressures, go back into the replays and see if there's some kind of tell ~6:00 that could have alerted you.
As a terran player having lot of easy wins in plat league with the hellbat lately, there are a few things I would like to point out :
1 - what Maru did (hellbat+banshee) is counterred by roaches but do roaches really counter the hellbat+medivacs variation ?. See Flash vs Rogue merry go round. In this particular case, it seems that banelings are a better counter cause when you have 3 medivacs above your hellbats roaches can't do anything....
2 - when you do this build as a terran you are very delayed cause a lot of your minerals goes into hellions instead of scv. Flash has 30 scv at 9'30 which is very low when you started with reaper expand... so a zerg shouldn't be afraid of getting a late B3...
3 - Don't worry about your transition cause if you deflect this attack, the terran will be behind both economically and technologically
4 - about scouting : ofc seeing no B3 is important, but you may have a tell already is you see only one reaper (compare to the usual 2-3 reaper into facto reactor) or an early second gaz
In conclusion, to me, the hellbat build is the equivalent of your roach baneling all-in, Zergs have to allways scout and adapt to this build just as terrans have to always scout and adapt for roach baneling.
The funny part being that from now on when you'll see your zerg opponent on 2 base with a roach warren you won't know if he wants to all in or if he's scarred of hellbats
hope this isn't too clueless, as I said I m just a plat terran...
On June 19 2014 17:24 Gwavajuice wrote: As a terran player having lot of easy wins in plat league with the hellbat lately, there are a few things I would like to point out :
1 - what Maru did (hellbat+banshee) is counterred by roaches but do roaches really counter the hellbat+medivacs variation ?. See Flash vs Rogue merry go round. In this particular case, it seems that banelings are a better counter cause when you have 3 medivacs above your hellbats roaches can't do anything....
2 - when you do this build as a terran you are very delayed cause a lot of your minerals goes into hellions instead of scv. Flash has 30 scv at 9'30 which is very low when you started with reaper expand... so a zerg shouldn't be afraid of getting a late B3...
3 - Don't worry about your transition cause if you deflect this attack, the terran will be behind both economically and technologically
4 - about scouting : ofc seeing no B3 is important, but you may have a tell already is you see only one reaper (compare to the usual 2-3 reaper into facto reactor) or an early second gaz
In conclusion, to me, the hellbat build is the equivalent of your roach baneling all-in, Zergs have to allways scout and adapt to this build just as terrans have to always scout and adapt for roach baneling.
The funny part being that from now on when you'll see your zerg opponent on 2 base with a roach warren you won't know if he wants to all in or if he's scarred of hellbats
hope this isn't too clueless, as I said I m just a plat terran...
you point out flash's worker count, but you fail to compare it to maru's. when maru's attack hit he had ~35 workers, flash cut at 23 and was more all-in with his build than maru. rogue's micro was also very bad in the fight, he engaged with queens before roaches and walked them into hellbat fire for no reason. he needed to kite and spread better. a forward spore near the natural hatch to zone medivacs wouldn't have been a bad idea either
there are some big problems with baneling defense. one of them is that they're fragile suicide units and if they get focused down by marines or there's a bad detonation you lose a unit for absolutely nothing. a roach will always put up a fight and has more micro potential, you can transfuse them, etc. etc.
as for not being sure whether roaches indicate an allin, the hellbat patch doesn't change anything about that. roaches for defense and mindgames existed before hellbats and always required active hellion scouting to verify the amount of pressure coming
as for not being sure whether roaches indicate an allin, the hellbat patch doesn't change anything about that. roaches for defense and mindgames existed before hellbats and always required active hellion scouting to verify the amount of pressure coming
I love Mindgame roaches . My favorite thing in the world is for a Terran to freak out and build 3 bunkers and pull there scvs on seeing a few roaches.
as for not being sure whether roaches indicate an allin, the hellbat patch doesn't change anything about that. roaches for defense and mindgames existed before hellbats and always required active hellion scouting to verify the amount of pressure coming
I love Mindgame roaches . My favorite thing in the world is for a Terran to freak out and build 3 bunkers and pull there scvs on seeing a few roaches.
Eh, if you're going to do mindgame Roaches, it's probably much more efficacious in terms of effort versus reward to go Hyun-style 1-1 Roach timing into 3 base Roach-Hydra 2-2 timing into Roach-Hydra-Viper-Swarmhost. The Hyun timing is lethal if not prepared for with Tanks and Bunkers, and the follow-up 2-2 timing absolutely wrecks a 3rd base that is too greedy on the map. Adequate defense against drop play puts you in a really nice situation. Plus, there's the fact that a dedicated Roach allin already wrecks most Hellbat plays, and this 1-1 timing is less allin with a similar power level thanks to the upgrades.
as for not being sure whether roaches indicate an allin, the hellbat patch doesn't change anything about that. roaches for defense and mindgames existed before hellbats and always required active hellion scouting to verify the amount of pressure coming
I love Mindgame roaches . My favorite thing in the world is for a Terran to freak out and build 3 bunkers and pull there scvs on seeing a few roaches.
Eh, if you're going to do mindgame Roaches, it's probably much more efficacious in terms of effort versus reward to go Hyun-style 1-1 Roach timing into 3 base Roach-Hydra 2-2 timing into Roach-Hydra-Viper-Swarmhost. The Hyun timing is lethal if not prepared for with Tanks and Bunkers, and the follow-up 2-2 timing absolutely wrecks a 3rd base that is too greedy on the map. Adequate defense against drop play puts you in a really nice situation. Plus, there's the fact that a dedicated Roach allin already wrecks most Hellbat plays, and this 1-1 timing is less allin with a similar power level thanks to the upgrades.
But You don't get the smug feeling that you tricked your opponent when you do the hyun build.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KlRORFu.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/n2kgxnF.png)
and i think roach openers can be quite standard now rather than being considered "behind". moonglade was saying the same on the proleague cast
