EPTPro Opinions: Swarm Hosts and Hellbats - Page 5
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iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
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FireCake
151 Posts
On May 20 2014 20:48 boxerfred wrote: Actual problem is the spore buff, as the queen buff was in BL/infestor time. just my opinion. I was talking about the last patch, not the beginning of HoTs ^^ Even without the spore buff, the SH army is the best composition in ZvZ late game. Look how many times a broodlord need to kill a spore. Big mutas switch could become a little harder to defend for the SH player but if he keeps some infestor/hydra he is completly safe. On May 20 2014 21:03 iHirO wrote: Would making massive units immune to abduct break the game? This would make the abduct spell as useful as the neural parasite. | ||
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Creager
Germany1900 Posts
[image loading] Acer.Nerchio: I don't think there is a problem in ZvT and even if there is, the advantage for Z is really small. I don't quite understand why Terrans don't use the typical bio mine composition that often anymore because it was really good in the past. I believe people follow patterns a little bit too much so if there is a Korean player in a big tournament that shows something else like bio mech then he changes the meta game for the next few months. Lol what Nerchio doesn't seem to be taking into account is that Widow Mines used to be stronger the past and the meta game hasn't been that figured out, yet. But overall good read and quite objective opinions not often seen by pros. | ||
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glaresc
31 Posts
I agree that they are necessary ,but i disagree that they're fine as they are right now. Even a small nerf would keep them very viable versus mech and we won't have to see mech into bio or fast double upgrade bio styles only. It's very map specific that we get to see full on mech nowadays. In my opinion right now swarmhosts are like tanks in siege mode but with longer range. You make enough of them and you lock terran on 3-4 , maybe on very few maps 5 bases and then you take the whole map, get to 10k10k and win. The only way to play mech now is to go all in on 3 base with 2 attack and to turtle to mass raven viking which you can do with bio anyways. | ||
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Tosster
Poland299 Posts
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Waise
3165 Posts
On May 20 2014 14:28 Videoboysayscube wrote: SH are not needed in TvZ mech. A roach/hydra ball with vipers accomplishes the same thing while keeping the match dynamic. Problem is, SH are too easy to use and require no micro, which is why so many Zergs resort to using them. if roach/hydra is "harder to use" then it does not accomplish the same thing. if your army is easier to control then you have more apm/multitasking etc. to focus on other aspects of the game, your macro, etc. saying a more difficult strategy "accomplishes the same thing" is ridiculous, the whole point of playing is to win as quickly and/or efficiently as you feel you're able to also swarm hosts are a lategame army which makes them more stable if you have to transition and fail to kill your opponent. hitting a timing requires that you do x amount of damage, creating a macro army means you can stabilize throughout the game. it's the same exact reason mechers turtle to raven/viking, and it's funny because mech players do that compulsively much more reliably than zergs tend to go for swarm hosts. we make swarm hosts if we feel like we have to in order to not die against protoss or mech deathballs. | ||
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
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DrMadmaN
Russian Federation6 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On May 20 2014 22:23 purakushi wrote: Balance aside, the swarm host, as it is currently, is a boring unit. That should be the thing that is addressed first. That depends on the play style and not on the unit itself. Ravens and Tanks aren't really a boring units, especially Tanks that you have to position perfectly for them to be useful, but we still see those Ravens, Tanks and Planetary Fortress turtle mech games that are boring as hell. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24209 Posts
Everybody seems to agree as well that the hellbat patch should be a good idea to help T in the mu they struggle the most with atm. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
On May 20 2014 22:38 Ramiz1989 wrote: That depends on the play style and not on the unit itself. Ravens and Tanks aren't really a boring units, especially Tanks that you have to position perfectly for them to be useful, but we still see those Ravens, Tanks and Planetary Fortress turtle mech games that are boring as hell. Link us a game where Swarm Host is not used as a boring stalemate unit to start. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On May 20 2014 23:24 klup wrote: Link us a game where Swarm Host is not used as a boring stalemate unit to start. You're welcome | ||
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diverzee
Sweden992 Posts
Why can't they revert the mine changes and give it back its original strength? Soulkey beat Innovation during that time. Last year the game was very exciting to watch, and the outcome of zvt matches not as predictable. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On May 20 2014 23:24 klup wrote: Link us a game where Swarm Host is not used as a boring stalemate unit to start. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On May 21 2014 00:13 diverzee wrote: The state of the ZvT matchup must be really lopsided when even zerg pros, whose livelihood hinges on their performance, are unanimously willing to admit to having an advantage. I wonder what terran pros would have said had they been asked the same question. Why can't they revert the mine changes and give it back its original strength? Soulkey beat Innovation during that time. Last year the game was very exciting to watch, and the outcome of zvt matches not as predictable. Huh? Pros are usually pretty honest about this stuff. When you say their livelihood depends on it, it's a truth with some modification. Their livelihood fundamentally depends on people watching the game, and if it becomes heavily imbalanced or boring, people will stop watching and their careers will cease to exist. Sc2 has already taken more beatings than Stalingrad in this respect, I think most pros are perfectly aware of the fact that unless people tune in, winning or losing makes no difference. Stephano always said straight up that zerg was OP vs toss in WoL, even as he was running roughshod over Code S protosses. | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany628 Posts
On May 21 2014 00:13 diverzee wrote: The state of the ZvT matchup must be really lopsided when even zerg pros, whose livelihood hinges on their performance, are unanimously willing to admit to having an advantage. I wonder what terran pros would have said had they been asked the same question. Why can't they revert the mine changes and give it back its original strength? Soulkey beat Innovation during that time. Last year the game was very exciting to watch, and the outcome of zvt matches not as predictable. they can´t revert the mine changes because mines were far too strong compared to the the rest of your factory units and taking away strategic diversity in the matchup. if anything the current problem with tvz derives from a lack of mobility on the terran side of things. let me illustrate: back in the wol days balance was doing ok, yes the infestor was op but that was fine as far as balance goes since the Mutalisk wasn´t a problem. So basically Terrans army was slower (tanks slowed you down a lot medivacs had no speed boosters) but Zerg had even less mobility ( infestors instead of mutas ). when hots came around maps got bigger and zerg armys became faster, even to a point where all their units(muta ling bling) have a mobility advantage over stimmed bio and thus puttting Terrans into a defensive position in the meta. This wasn´t a major problem at first because Terran still had the advantage in raw costefficiency due to 4m. Maps like neo planet s where the most important spaces on the map where narrow ramps that even gave highground advantage made up for Terrans disadvantage in mobility and alllowed for drilling plays. But when Neo planet etc where exchanged for frost and co and the widowmine was nerfed, drilling became an ineffecient option and left Terrans drop play as the only solution to playing the matchup. Unfortunately though, Mutas not only answered drop play but were discovered as a tool to elevator Zergs army Value and cost efficiency in harrasment plays resulting in nearly unbeatable 40+ muta flocks that could only be stopped by a combination of marine thor that offered little to no agressive potential for Terrans. So now we are at a point where Terrans are struggling at all fronts. They have lesser agressive potential in the early game while at the same time their early late game (16-20 minutes) suffers from an army value disadvantage due to the way Zerg economy management functions. This basically left Terran with two options either a) try to end the game with a 3-3 bio timing. Or b) out value the Zerg army and economy with mech/air play. But both of these are easily read and countered by a Zerg player of equal skill. a) just requires good creepspread and a ton of muta ling bane while b) has a hard time against starving-, counterattack- and timing oriented play. Possible solutions to the problem can be: a) Terran adapts and creates a new lategame oriented style that retains its cost efficiency even in the face of an overwhelming Zerg macro advantage. we have seen the beginnings of this in the rise of Mech and Bio-Mech compositions but they have yet to become a convincing way to play the meta. b) Beef up Terrans midgame potential by either buffing Terran in some way, nerfing Zergs midgame (e.g. slow down creep spread, smaller maps, increase Thor damage vs mutas etc) speed up Terrans growth in some sort of way (e.g: Cheaper infrastructur, faster unit production, increased efficiency of Mules, enable Production facilitties to produce units while creating addons, introduce a +1 range upgrade for marines, etc) c) strengthen Terrans defenses (buff Siegetanks further, enable building armor without the upgrade, strenghen Bunkers, cheapen Planetary fortresses, reduce widowmine cooldown and increase its activation range (this one could be counted under b* aswell) thats about it. oh and @ op what kind of shitty biased train are you riding mate... why the hell would you call this thread pro opinions and only let Zerg pros have a say!??!? | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On May 20 2014 23:24 klup wrote: Link us a game where Swarm Host is not used as a boring stalemate unit to start. Tons of games  http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_europe/c/2284189 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/419352-swarm-host-drops http://www.twitch.tv/rekatan/b/358311304 - 45th minute http://ru.twitch.tv/rekatan/b/358311304?t=195m30s - 195th minute 30 sec ^ 21th minute 32 sec http://ru.twitch.tv/rekatan/b/357387943?t=92m20s - 92th minute 20s http://ru.twitch.tv/rekatan/b/358311304?t=152m - 152th minute http://ru.twitch.tv/rekatan/b/357387943 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/398321-2-base-swarm-host-spore-zvp http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/420293664?t=8h32m55s - go to 8 hour 32 minute 55 second mark - 35th minute till the end of game - watch from 1:19:00 | ||
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glaresc
31 Posts
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