|
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PODpT5Z.jpg)
Haven't see many people using this but I'm finding it very strong. Swarm Host drops seem viable in almost all match ups if you adjust the build according to the opponents build.
The biggest thing I've noticed is that having overlord speed and drops with the Swarm host makes them easier to use because you're able to escape and come back and attack at many angles over and over.
I urge zerg players to try this out and follow the unit control steps:
1. Release swarm host from overlords and drop some creep (if time applies)
2. Release locust and pick up swarm hosts quick as possible (use que cmd)
3. drop in another location and repeat over and over.
4. mix it up a bit and leave 1 swarm host while picking up one and moving on. (this will force more attention on your opponents side)
Pros:
- cost efficient as time goes on
- very distracting
- cant be ignored because of the quick DPS of locast
- can sometimes play hands off when there isn't detection
- seems to buy a lot of time and contains well
- leads in to hive quickly
- can play it safely due to range of locust
Cons:
- can be difficult to control sometimes (if they have quick detection or are aware early)
- high risk high reward applies here
- lossing anything early on is pretty big deal and more so with swarm hosts because they kind of need to be massed in most cases
- still difficult to defend home against drops/warp ins/harass
- air obviously
- very long build times (upgrades and unit itself)
There is massive amount of room to improve on this. For example if I played a little faster I could focus buildings and workers but keeping track of 2 drops and one frontal attack is already pretty taxing on attention.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/346762 (recommended)
http://drop.sc/346718
http://drop.sc/346717
http://drop.sc/346716
Banner by SVivum (overlord) and Existor (swarm host lover)
|
I normally hate this being asked on threads like this, but what league are you in atm? I feel as if this would be a strong gimmick against people who haven't seen it before and don't have good crisis management/multitasking, but at a high level I think that most opponents would correctly react by counterattacking and would take much less damage from the drops than lower-lever players due to better reaction times. I know that obviously people on ladder aren't Innovation, but I remember a proleague game vs Hitman, where hitman used a gimmicky swarmhost build, and Innovation probably hadn't encountered this much if at all, and still crushed it because he knew how to react to things, and I feel that more experienced players will be able to deal with things like swarmhost drops in the same way, by simply knowing what to do. A similar idea can be found in the counter to CatZ' CC first hatch block, it works because people panic, but it's actually easy to stop.
Furthermore overlords aren't nearly as good as medivacs or warp prisms in my opinion. And swarm hosts need to burrow before they can attack, so by having a few units and a detector ready when the drops comes, the drop I feel will accomplish very little. Basically the investment/supply needed to defend the drops is less than the drops actually take.
However, the sheer power of these drops is very high due to the insane DPS of locust, and the biggest weakness of the swarmhost, the immobility, is somewhat remedied with this idea of dropping, although Nydus would be even better as they can come back to defend as well, although this idea suffers even more from how easily a Nydus can be denied. If the drops are executed successfully, and your opponent decides not to counter attack, I can see these being very strong.
It is interesting though and I'm intrigued enough to watch all the replays and to hope I see it in pro games.
|
He's midmasters zerg if you look at the replay files.
Also it is nice to move around swarm hosts for attack purposes, no? It's like if terran had super fast/mobile siege tanks with medivacs... wait. This also applies to terran then.
Mobile Swarm hosts > Mobile widow Mines > Mobile Tanks?
|
On June 30 2013 00:21 Shaoer wrote:
He's midmasters zerg if you look at the replay files.
Also it is nice to move around swarm hosts for attack purposes, no? It's like if terran had super fast/mobile siege tanks with medivacs... wait. This also applies to terran then.
Mobile Swarm hosts > Mobile widow Mines > Mobile Tanks?
But then Terrans don't really tank drop do they, because it's too much investment to lose if the drop fails.
|
On June 30 2013 00:55 LardMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 00:21 Shaoer wrote:
He's midmasters zerg if you look at the replay files.
Also it is nice to move around swarm hosts for attack purposes, no? It's like if terran had super fast/mobile siege tanks with medivacs... wait. This also applies to terran then.
Mobile Swarm hosts > Mobile widow Mines > Mobile Tanks? But then Terrans don't really tank drop do they, because it's too much investment to lose if the drop fails.
No, because dropping 2 tanks is useless.
However, dropping 5-6 swarmhosts against a mech terran can be really usefull.
|
On June 30 2013 00:16 LardMaster wrote:
I normally hate this being asked on threads like this, but what league are you in atm?
Currently mid masters on Korea but I'm struggling right now to even stay mid these days.
|
Russian Federation4282 Posts
|
On June 30 2013 00:55 LardMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 00:21 Shaoer wrote:
He's midmasters zerg if you look at the replay files.
Also it is nice to move around swarm hosts for attack purposes, no? It's like if terran had super fast/mobile siege tanks with medivacs... wait. This also applies to terran then.
Mobile Swarm hosts > Mobile widow Mines > Mobile Tanks? But then Terrans don't really tank drop do they, because it's too much investment to lose if the drop fails.
What about just being more mobile with Swarm Hosts, currently you strike (say third) and then move your hosts away. Imagine if you could release locusts, lift, run to somewhere farther, release, repeat. Protoss/ Terran would be wayyy too busy fighting locusts off in like all locations, and then you can transport the Swarm Hosts back home for defense if they base trade. Obviously this won't work well vs air toss, but its an option vs meching terran and toss without much AA
|
To the first comment about good players:
Really good players anything seems to fail lets just say that. I have managed to take a few games of pretty high master players (on KR) on occasions so I think this is a strategy you can use sometimes at least.
One thing I've noticed is that it isn't that expensive as the game goes on. 100 gas is like a muta and in my eyes the swarm hosts are more cost efficient (not that muta suck, i like them) I think its important to draw comparisons to other units that cost near 100 gas.
So taking in to account the cost I would dare say it can be a rather standard build also considering it opens up a lot of tech unlike say mutas which is imo feels like a dead end at times.
Could be it doesnt at the pro level and thats why we havent seen but when i use this it feels pretty decent and someone at a pro level could get way more out of it then i can.
|
Yeah I read in your posts that TLO does it. It is still pretty rare to see it.
|
|
|
Russian Federation4282 Posts
On June 30 2013 00:55 LardMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 00:21 Shaoer wrote:
He's midmasters zerg if you look at the replay files.
Also it is nice to move around swarm hosts for attack purposes, no? It's like if terran had super fast/mobile siege tanks with medivacs... wait. This also applies to terran then.
Mobile Swarm hosts > Mobile widow Mines > Mobile Tanks? But then Terrans don't really tank drop do they, because it's too much investment to lose if the drop fails.
Swarm Hosts drops are similar to Broodlords in some way.
Sh can deal damage through Locusts while they are flying into other location. Release locusts and drop at other place.
|
This is one of those things I've always thought about, but been to lazy to try on my own. Swarm host drops have a massive advantage over, say, tanks drops. Tank drops have a myriad of problems. Unsieged, they're essentially a marauder drop, just riskier and lacking the heal support from the medivac. If you siege up to try and hit a mineral line, the opponent has a few seconds to run their workers away, at which point you can only really attack their structures, and sieged tanks have poor single-target DPS. Plus, you have to unsiege in order to retreat, and that delay usually means it ends up being a suicide run.
Swarm Hosts, on the other hand, are very strong because, while they too have a "siege" mechanic, they don't have to stay that way. Drops in general can be suicide runs to do as much damage as possible, but it's superior in the long run to have a single drop continually doing chipping damage. Zerg drops have been traditionally weak in this regard because of their difficulty disengaging the drops; even with speed, retreating overlords are slow enough to be picked off by vikings, phoenix, stimmed marines, blink stalkers, etc., leading to a prevalence of doom drops rather than harassment drops. However, with swarm hosts, even though you have the setup time, you can immediately unburrow and be out before forces even arrive to defend the drop, much less snipe the overlords. Plus, locusts pack a significant punch (higher DPS than hydras) and even though they don't last long, that's enough time to rip apart any workers who don't run, and focus down key structures if your opponent doesn't respond as they would to any other drop force.
|
On June 30 2013 02:24 salehonasi wrote:
This is one of those things I've always thought about, but been to lazy to try on my own. Swarm host drops have a massive advantage over, say, tanks drops. Tank drops have a myriad of problems. Unsieged, they're essentially a marauder drop, just riskier and lacking the heal support from the medivac. If you siege up to try and hit a mineral line, the opponent has a few seconds to run their workers away, at which point you can only really attack their structures, and sieged tanks have poor single-target DPS. Plus, you have to unsiege in order to retreat, and that delay usually means it ends up being a suicide run.
Swarm Hosts, on the other hand, are very strong because, while they too have a "siege" mechanic, they don't have to stay that way. Drops in general can be suicide runs to do as much damage as possible, but it's superior in the long run to have a single drop continually doing chipping damage. Zerg drops have been traditionally weak in this regard because of their difficulty disengaging the drops; even with speed, retreating overlords are slow enough to be picked off by vikings, phoenix, stimmed marines, blink stalkers, etc., leading to a prevalence of doom drops rather than harassment drops. However, with swarm hosts, even though you have the setup time, you can immediately unburrow and be out before forces even arrive to defend the drop, much less snipe the overlords. Plus, locusts pack a significant punch (higher DPS than hydras) and even though they don't last long, that's enough time to rip apart any workers who don't run, and focus down key structures if your opponent doesn't respond as they would to any other drop force.
This is exactly what I'm finding also.
It is not like I just spent a day doing this strategy I have used it for the past week. loss some won some. It is a rewarding type of play that isnt too hard or easy. it rewards good play and its open to risky or safe types of play.
Swarm Hosts are the only units that can do damage while not even being in the location anymore. locust with 25 seconds in a prime locations without travel time, its hard to put a price on this.
|
Russian Federation4282 Posts
Chrono000
Swarm Host drops require a lot multitask, and probably more, than standard terran drops. But it's still very good and dangerous strategy
Also, check your PM
|
I don't mean to disregard your ideas too much here, but I think it may be a good idea while we're discussing Zerg drops to discuss 4 hydra drops. Not as a build or anything but especially ZvP if you open Hydra or Z (roach/hydra/viper ) v T (mech); Hydras do ludicrous amounts of damage quickly, especially if upgraded. If you're remaxing or just building some units and can spare the money and have overlord speed (as you should anyway in my humble opinion) and have had the notion in your head to get ventral sacs anyway, it's totally possible to pull off without too much worry.
I won't couch it, I'm bad; but dropping at two locations with hydras (main/nat) while attacking the third or main/ 3rd while attacking the natural will invariably result in damage, even if the attack is a feint simply to make dropping possible.
I did this in one of my games the other day (don't have the replay unfortunately as I reset my comp to factory settings due to some issues beyond my control) but what I found repeatedly was that hydras can do a lot of damage but zergling drops, even like 16 zerglings in the drop, rarely do much damage at least against Protoss.
I wonder, to go back to the idea of dropping swarm hosts and having some experience with it myself, if dropping swarm hosts in one location and hydras in another would be a decent idea?
Because I'm feeling verbose, and given that I like to burrow shit everywhere, I wonder now if burrowed banelings should make a comeback now with widow mines being so prevalent ZvT? I saw someone take out a bunch of sentries with just a couple the other day. I think early overlord speed and early burrow give a lot of options that aren't being used presently.
|
On June 30 2013 09:36 Hossinaut wrote:
I don't mean to disregard your ideas too much here, but I think it may be a good idea while we're discussing Zerg drops to discuss 4 hydra drops. Not as a build or anything but especially ZvP if you open Hydra or Z (roach/hydra/viper ) v T (mech); Hydras do ludicrous amounts of damage quickly, especially if upgraded. If you're remaxing or just building some units and can spare the money and have overlord speed (as you should anyway in my humble opinion) and have had the notion in your head to get ventral sacs anyway, it's totally possible to pull off without too much worry.
I won't couch it, I'm bad; but dropping at two locations with hydras (main/nat) while attacking the third or main/ 3rd while attacking the natural will invariably result in damage, even if the attack is a feint simply to make dropping possible.
I did this in one of my games the other day (don't have the replay unfortunately as I reset my comp to factory settings due to some issues beyond my control) but what I found repeatedly was that hydras can do a lot of damage but zergling drops, even like 16 zerglings in the drop, rarely do much damage at least against Protoss.
I wonder, to go back to the idea of dropping swarm hosts and having some experience with it myself, if dropping swarm hosts in one location and hydras in another would be a decent idea?
Because I'm feeling verbose, and given that I like to burrow shit everywhere, I wonder now if burrowed banelings should make a comeback now with widow mines being so prevalent ZvT? I saw someone take out a bunch of sentries with just a couple the other day. I think early overlord speed and early burrow give a lot of options that aren't being used presently.
You have a lot of good points and I mostly agree.
Hydra drops are great and I use them as well. The difference between the swarm host drop and hydra drop is that you can potentially drop more safely with the swarm hosts in the corner of the map/base and attack from afar than move away and do it in another location. If you vs terran they will waste a scan and if u vs zerg or protoss they often send there whole army and detections to the corner of the map buying u time.
I'm having a hell of a time against mines and I'm feeling like its much harder for zerg to actually play against them than it is to actually use them. Nothing seems to work for me consistently against them. Maybe using overlord speed set of mines and burrow banlings might help. ill have to try.
|
On June 30 2013 18:45 Chrono000 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 09:36 Hossinaut wrote:
I don't mean to disregard your ideas too much here, but I think it may be a good idea while we're discussing Zerg drops to discuss 4 hydra drops. Not as a build or anything but especially ZvP if you open Hydra or Z (roach/hydra/viper ) v T (mech); Hydras do ludicrous amounts of damage quickly, especially if upgraded. If you're remaxing or just building some units and can spare the money and have overlord speed (as you should anyway in my humble opinion) and have had the notion in your head to get ventral sacs anyway, it's totally possible to pull off without too much worry.
I won't couch it, I'm bad; but dropping at two locations with hydras (main/nat) while attacking the third or main/ 3rd while attacking the natural will invariably result in damage, even if the attack is a feint simply to make dropping possible.
I did this in one of my games the other day (don't have the replay unfortunately as I reset my comp to factory settings due to some issues beyond my control) but what I found repeatedly was that hydras can do a lot of damage but zergling drops, even like 16 zerglings in the drop, rarely do much damage at least against Protoss.
I wonder, to go back to the idea of dropping swarm hosts and having some experience with it myself, if dropping swarm hosts in one location and hydras in another would be a decent idea?
Because I'm feeling verbose, and given that I like to burrow shit everywhere, I wonder now if burrowed banelings should make a comeback now with widow mines being so prevalent ZvT? I saw someone take out a bunch of sentries with just a couple the other day. I think early overlord speed and early burrow give a lot of options that aren't being used presently. You have a lot of good points and I mostly agree. Hydra drops are great and I use them as well. The difference between the swarm host drop and hydra drop is that you can potentially drop more safely with the swarm hosts in the corner of the map/base and attack from afar than move away and do it in another location. If you vs terran they will waste a scan and if u vs zerg or protoss they often send there whole army and detections to the corner of the map buying u time. I'm having a hell of a time against mines and I'm feeling like its much harder for zerg to actually play against them than it is to actually use them. Nothing seems to work for me consistently against them. Maybe using overlord speed set of mines and burrow banlings might help. ill have to try.
I'm gonna watch some of those replays you put up here in a sec, but I would be interested in further findings you have with dropping and burrowing stuff.
I just remembered this, but every once in a while I accidentally get overlord drop just because I hit the button on my keyboard and don't catch it before it finishes, and I've made a small habit of using speed overlords to actually move my swarmhosts around. On some maps and with good creep spread it may not matter so much, but it's really helpful to get them into position more quickly for flanks and stuff. I love trying to have ~4 SH attacking some of their farther flung bases and maneuvering with the rest of my army, but as soon as they go down (the bases) or if I need to reinforce or retreat that using overlords is really really effective. They can just fly over cliffs and out into the edges of the map etc. etc.
I guess I'm just wondering if using this type of overlord drop with swarm hosts needs to be to drop bases or if it can just be used to position an army more quickly or in a more-difficult-to-assault-into position?
EDIT: So I watched some of those and I was sort of blown away with how effective the SH drops were, and how cost efficient and safe they ended up being. I wonder how that is variable by the map, but I feel like it wouldn't make much of a difference.
It's really cool to see this work. I like the idea that we as zerg don't have to let the Terran or Protoss be the primary aggressor and we just sit there and macro and hope we manage to get the right composition and the right engages, but that we can force errors without mutalisks.
|
On June 30 2013 23:31 Hossinaut wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2013 18:45 Chrono000 wrote:On June 30 2013 09:36 Hossinaut wrote:
I don't mean to disregard your ideas too much here, but I think it may be a good idea while we're discussing Zerg drops to discuss 4 hydra drops. Not as a build or anything but especially ZvP if you open Hydra or Z (roach/hydra/viper ) v T (mech); Hydras do ludicrous amounts of damage quickly, especially if upgraded. If you're remaxing or just building some units and can spare the money and have overlord speed (as you should anyway in my humble opinion) and have had the notion in your head to get ventral sacs anyway, it's totally possible to pull off without too much worry.
I won't couch it, I'm bad; but dropping at two locations with hydras (main/nat) while attacking the third or main/ 3rd while attacking the natural will invariably result in damage, even if the attack is a feint simply to make dropping possible.
I did this in one of my games the other day (don't have the replay unfortunately as I reset my comp to factory settings due to some issues beyond my control) but what I found repeatedly was that hydras can do a lot of damage but zergling drops, even like 16 zerglings in the drop, rarely do much damage at least against Protoss.
I wonder, to go back to the idea of dropping swarm hosts and having some experience with it myself, if dropping swarm hosts in one location and hydras in another would be a decent idea?
Because I'm feeling verbose, and given that I like to burrow shit everywhere, I wonder now if burrowed banelings should make a comeback now with widow mines being so prevalent ZvT? I saw someone take out a bunch of sentries with just a couple the other day. I think early overlord speed and early burrow give a lot of options that aren't being used presently. You have a lot of good points and I mostly agree. Hydra drops are great and I use them as well. The difference between the swarm host drop and hydra drop is that you can potentially drop more safely with the swarm hosts in the corner of the map/base and attack from afar than move away and do it in another location. If you vs terran they will waste a scan and if u vs zerg or protoss they often send there whole army and detections to the corner of the map buying u time. I'm having a hell of a time against mines and I'm feeling like its much harder for zerg to actually play against them than it is to actually use them. Nothing seems to work for me consistently against them. Maybe using overlord speed set of mines and burrow banlings might help. ill have to try. I'm gonna watch some of those replays you put up here in a sec, but I would be interested in further findings you have with dropping and burrowing stuff. I just remembered this, but every once in a while I accidentally get overlord drop just because I hit the button on my keyboard and don't catch it before it finishes, and I've made a small habit of using speed overlords to actually move my swarmhosts around. On some maps and with good creep spread it may not matter so much, but it's really helpful to get them into position more quickly for flanks and stuff. I love trying to have ~4 SH attacking some of their farther flung bases and maneuvering with the rest of my army, but as soon as they go down (the bases) or if I need to reinforce or retreat that using overlords is really really effective. They can just fly over cliffs and out into the edges of the map etc. etc.
I guess I'm just wondering if using this type of overlord drop with swarm hosts needs to be to drop bases or if it can just be used to position an army more quickly or in a more-difficult-to-assault-into position? EDIT: So I watched some of those and I was sort of blown away with how effective the SH drops were, and how cost efficient and safe they ended up being. I wonder how that is variable by the map, but I feel like it wouldn't make much of a difference. It's really cool to see this work. I like the idea that we as zerg don't have to let the Terran or Protoss be the primary aggressor and we just sit there and macro and hope we manage to get the right composition and the right engages, but that we can force errors without mutalisks.
Actually the crossed out section of your post gives me an idea and reminded me of how I used to use swarm hosts, that is using overlord speed for creep. It is very useful but a neglected style of play for me these days.
It is a nice reminder and it is something I'm going to play around with. The overlord speed upgrade I'm personally finding more and more useful these days so its almost an integral part of every game (thats why its so easy for me to use drops)
But by using only overlord creep to extend the usefulness of the swarm host I have an idea that this could be used as a more efficient tech stepping stone. Swarm Host often cause the opponent to react strongly due to the massing nature of the swarm host. Diverting your opponents plans would be the most desired and favored scenario.
What I propose is use overlord speed to place creep (for esc and for offense) to give the swarm host that much needed early utility without the big price tag. Instead using the infestation pit for other things.
It is pretty clear now the biggest problem with swarm host drops is the upgrading time needed, set up time placing them/moving them and the unit itself is a very very long build time.
|
Russian Federation4282 Posts
Well, but you can still use Swarm Hosts without upgrade. Maybe that will allow you to do a bit earlier attacks with them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
WCS
