Pro Opinions: The Swarm Host Problem (Or Lack Thereof?)
Thanks to Stephano and a few highly visible Swarm Host stalemates, Blizzard is considering acting upon Heart of the Swarm's most controversial unit. At the same time, ZvT at the competitive level appears to be trending in Zerg's favor, which has caught Blizzard's attention as well. After putting forth some ideas, Blizzard finally released a balance test map on May 14th with the following changes:
Zerg
Spore Crawler damage decreased from 15 + 30 vs biological to 15 + 10 vs biological
Hydralisk damage against air increased from 12 to 12 + 4 vs biological
Terran
Removed Transformation Servos upgrade
Changed Hellion/Hellbat transform requirement to Armory
TeamLiquid asked Zerg pros from across all three WCS regions their thoughts on Blizzard's proposed changes.
Note: We talked to the players before the release of the test map, but after Blizzard had released their proposed changes.
Note 2: Maybe there's a Terran questionnaire coming soon.
Do you think there is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvZ?
Liquid`Snute: Yes, players can turtle up on one base to force a draw like we've seen in a few broadcasted matches now. The games last for 2 hours and it doesn't weigh heavily enough if a player is far ahead in economy. The Spore/Viper/SH/Infestor combination is too strong for its cost. Swarm Hosts are not overpowered in the midgame, but in the endgame they're way too strong compared to more expensive-per-supply units such as Brood Lords, Corruptors, Banelings and Infestors.
Liquid`TLO: I haven't played any game yet where it became a problem, usually whenever someone went for Swarm Host he was either so far ahead that he would have won with another strategy as well or died in the transition.
Acer.Nerchio: There is definitely a problem with Swarm Host in ZvZ because there is no counter play to it right now. It's not that hard to get to that composition and it's almost unbeatable because air switch takes too long for the player that is in the economic lead versus the Swarm Host player and he can easily prepare for that (just look at how long it takes to make Brood Lords) with spore+viper. You can try attacking in multiple places but higher amount of queens or spores that kill drops will easily negate that, so if there is a Swarm Host player with experience the games will drag on forever every time.
There should be also a better way to detect burrowed units since overseers die so fast to spores and then there is no way to kill Swarm Hosts. Adding the fact that Swarm Hosts players always make a lot of spores and queens to transfuse makes breaking the camping player almost impossible.
coL.Hendralisk: On NA ladder, which is where I play the vast majority of my games, it's not really an issue. But watching streams, I have noticed people going for a SH style on EU server where the game drags out to a stalemate with obscene numbers of locusts everywhere. Some suggested changes like viper/brood/spore changes will help alleviate this.
[We asked HyuN about the ZvZ stalemates in some foreign tournaments]
Those kind of games don't happen for me. I played Stephano on ladder; when I have the advantage, all I have to do is match his Swarm Hosts with my own Swarm Hosts and overwhelm him with my resource/numbers advantage to win. You can't go Swarm Hosts in an even situation -- without going for mutas first, you can't go for Swarm Hosts. Also, it's possible to just counter them with one big roach-bane attack. I don't understand the problem.
What do you think of Blizzard's proposed change to hydralisks and spore crawlers? Are there any other changes that you would like to see?
Liquid`Snute: This will only change the ZvZ midgame and do nothing to prevent SH stalemates. I don't know why they proposed this change, it's not good for anything related to SH. At best, a game here and there that would've been a 2-hour SH game will be averted because of the more volatile midgame. But that's not a fix to the actual problem. The current Hydralisks and Spores are fine as they are. Attention should be directed towards granting Zerg a way to defeat Spore/Viper/SH/Infestor with a more expensive army. Making the Brood Lord immune to abduct would solve the problem without messing with the other match-ups. I hope the developers will give this option a chance.
Liquid`TLO: I don't like those changes that much, they don't seem that necessary. I'm pretty okay with how ZvZ is at the moment so I can't think of any good changes to be honest. The turtle style we've seen a bunch of time hasn't happened to me yet, so maybe that's why!
Acer.Nerchio: It's a very small change which would probably leave Swarm Hosts in ZvZ close to unaffected. Brood Lords would be more viable but in the late game I still think they would not work against mass spores and vipers + queens for transfuse. You need to push with your Brood Lords so you will get abducted every time anyway and you can't really break the Swarm Host line in a reasonable amount of time with Brood Lords. I think mutas could work much better in ZvZ from this point so we would see Swarm Hosts less but I am not sure it would fix the problem since you can start from infestors or something else and then transition to Swarm Hosts. Mass muta play would be viable but it would be still risky and that's not what you aim for in competitive play. You want to have a consistent way to beat a strategy.
coL.Hendralisk: I think with the changes, mutas might become popular in ZvZ again, since roaches are superior right now and reign supreme. It could be worth testing out to see the effects, seems like an interesting idea.
Roccat_HyuN: Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
CJ_Hydra: In the end, I don't think Blizzard's suggested fixes can change Swarm Host vs Swarm Host. If one player goes SH's and the other player goes SH's in response, having a long, stalemated game is inevitable. It's just like in Brood War TvT, where if one player hunkers down with the intent of going for a long game, then you have no choice in following him along. I don't think a change is needed.
It seems like the fix is aimed at Stephano's recent games. But if you look at Korean leagues where the highest level of competition is at, it's hard to find those kind of SH games because Zerg players play a very tight game and are quick to notice tech switches. If Stephano played Korean players, I don't think he'd be able to play that type of game. I don't think ZvZ needs any kind of patch.
SKT_soO: If you make mutas easier to use, you'll see more Swarm Host use. It seems like where would be less roach vs roach games , and more muta vs muta ,or muta vs Swarm Host games.
AX.Impact: There are barely any games where you see Swarm Host vs. Swarm Host. There's nothing I want changed in particular.
Do you think there is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvT?
Liquid`Snute: They are strong but they have to be, to fight Mech. I don't think I can answer this well.
Liquid`TLO: I don't think so, they're necessary vs mech and not really great vs bio. They can be useful vs bio-mech but I don't see any game breaking problem with them.
Acer.Nerchio: ZvT is probably match up that is affected the least by Swarm Hosts since they are primarily used in situations to fight mech and even then it's usually only a few Swarm Hosts not the amounts you see in other match ups. If you want to balance Swarm Hosts you should probably almost ignore ZvT since it has very little play and any changes will not matter that much here since Terran will always have superior army in the late game with mass air.
coL.Hendralisk: SH are only viable vs mech, and without SH it seems mech is way too tough to handle. It causes for long games but without another change, SH is an effective way to deal with mech.
Do you think there is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvP?
Liquid`Snute: The locusts' range/movement speed off creep might be a bit too strong. But again, the Swarm Host is a necessity.
Liquid`TLO: There aren't really any other viable late game compositions for Zerg that can fight cost efficient in any way, especially off creep. High level Protoss players are very good at dealing damage and mass expanding vs Swarm Host, so I don't think there's a problem here necessarily. If Swarm Host were weakened you'd need to address a lot of other units at the same time though.
Acer.Nerchio: There is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvP but there is definitely a counter play to it, so the approach should be different than in ZvZ. Very much the same as ZvT, Protoss has stronger late game army than Zerg with mass air (usually Tempest) and Templars but there is no reason why Protoss player should attack a Swarm Host Zerg that is simply sitting in his base. That doesn't work in his favour and he will gain more by sitting in his base himself which leads to terrible stalemates (Mana vs Firecake come up to mind, Mana tried attacking here and there so he lost eventually but he didn't have to).
coL.Hendralisk: Similarly, long drawn out games where seemingly both sides aren't hard pressed to attack. Sort of like vs mech, I feel vs airtoss going SH is a solid response and it would be hard to deal with it otherwise. I don't really go SH enough myself to comment more on SHs.
Do you think that Zerg currently have an advantage in ZvT?
Liquid`Snute: Yes, on big maps. ZvT is very map dependant and the new maps are quite big and slightly Zerg favored.
Liquid`TLO: The maps are currently very good for Zerg, we went from extremely small maps with many chokes like Yeonsu and Heavy rain to mostly very big open wide maps, so naturally balance shifted towards Zerg. I'd like to see a bit more of a mixed map pool with small medium and big maps.
Acer.Nerchio: I don't think there is a problem in ZvT and even if there is, the advantage for Z is really small. I don't quite understand why Terrans don't use the typical bio mine composition that often anymore because it was really good in the past. I believe people follow patterns a little bit too much so if there is a Korean player in a big tournament that shows something else like bio mech then he changes the meta game for the next few months.
coL.Hendralisk: It feels that way on certain maps, when Zergs defend early harass without much problem and race up to a really high drone count and go into muta ling bane. With a critical mass of mutas, Terran have a hard time dealing with that. But Zerg needs a lot of mechanics to pull that off smoothly, so it's not like camping with infestor Brood Lord or something along those lines.
Roccat_HyuN: It feels like Zerg is a little bit better, but because Terrans keep trying a lot of new things it seems like things are evening out. For instance, starting mech and going into bio-mech, or opening bio and adding in mech units late. I think it would be alright to leave it as is for now and keep and eye on it.
AX.Impact: Most Terrans think that it's good for Zerg, but if you understand the game well there's actually nothing that's especially good for Zerg.
What do you think of Blizzard's proposed change to hellion/hellbats? Are there any other changes that you would like to see?
Liquid`Snute: It's okay don't have too many comments on this one.
Liquid`TLO: I think that could be fun, I'm a bit concerned there could be some too strong hellbat marine medivac timings, especially if Terran does only the slightest early game dmg and retains his hellions but so far the servos are completely useless so it's a good thing to try out in my opinion.
Acer.Nerchio: I think it won't affect almost anything in the game. There might be a few timings in ZvT that might be a little bit stronger like standard hellion opening followed up with 2 medivacs with marines but instead of 6 hellions you will have 6 hellbats.
I would like mothership core to be less relevant in the game because now it is main offensive and defensive unit for Protoss in all match ups along with the sentry and allows for too quick change between defensive and offensive stance. Especially in PvZ you can pressure with very small army that should be defending your base and not attacking and yet you cannot be punished for that.
coL.Hendralisk: It will help out Terrans some, though I am worried about the first push in tvz with medivacs will be a lot stronger. Not really too sure on what other changes atm, I usually like to see how things are after balance changes to judge from there.
Roccat_HyuN: I think it could become very tough for Zerg at the 2-medivac timing.
CJ_Hydra: It would be an alright patch. The other races wouldn't be able to go for greedy play so comfortably because of early-mid game rushes with hellions transformed into hellbats.
SKT_soO: I don't know exactly how it would turn out, but it would definitely help Terran in the match-up.
AX.Impact: I think we'll see a wide variety of strategies. If Terrans can use them well, there will be situations where Zerg will be at a disadvantage even if they stop an attack. Still, I'd have to play it out first to know for sure.
It feels like there is a lot of indifference for these upcoming patches and like article title implies, there doesn't seem to be a huge consensus that the SH (the way it is right now in terms of balance NOT unit design) is a huge problem among these pro players.
I think that the games shown at Lonestar Clash, was a just a kneejerk reaction by us, the community. Also we do have to consider how often the other players like Jaedong or Petraeus played the kind of strategy used by Stephano. The problem may very well be that other zerg players have not figured out how to fight against SH turtle in ZvZ since it is something that has only recently started become "popular" (to talk about at least).
The koreans took about 20 seconds off their practice to answer the questions, then went back to ladder where they don't make swarm hosts like Stephano lol
On May 20 2014 08:58 peanutsfan1995 wrote: soO word count - 71 words.
So concise.
Brevity is the soul of wit. Also, it is pretty cool to see how the Korean zergs don't seem to care about these details and seem to have the "it's fine, I'll figure it out if I can play more" approach.
I guess Koreans tend to be more decisive and are more adept at killing the opponent, rather than let Stephano sit back and get back into the game by making swarmhosts
I think unanimous agreement from them that ZvT is z-favoured is a pretty good indicator something might not be totally OK with the matchup. Normally you'd have to pull teeth to get pro players to admit they're at an advantage....
Well, I'd say that they don't have the largest english vocab in the world so. If it was translated then possibly the translation is a bit off. Either way, their point is clear. They don't think it's a problem and don't really care what blizzard does, they're here to practice w/e game blizzard puts out and they are out to win some tournaments.
Got to agree with the Koreans. Although the foreigners are correct in a lot of their points, and their statements shouldn't be discredited much at all, long SH stalemates are not really a problem in games that I've seen (which are pretty much only WCS, GSL, and PL). SH's aren't REALLY a problem, and Terran isn't REALLY at a disadvantage against Zerg.
This looks like an interesting patch though, and I want to see games be played on it to see how it works out.
I don't play SC2 anymore as I haven't even owned a computer for about 2 years, but I watch frequently and try to actually pay attention to what players are doing and why their strategies work or don't.
I really agree with what TLO said, usually when people transition to SH, they are winning and choose SH as a strategy, but could also choose another strat and still win/kept their lead. When people are losing and switch to SH, usually simple scouting will enable the leading player to crush their transition.
Foreigners emphasize more on style of play over mechanics and decision making. Which is the reason for the different answers between the two. If they were any better they would kill the player before letting them comeback with swarmhosts. Stupid ass topic and this deserves the short answers from the Koreans that knew foreigners were bad, but not THAT bad
Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD
Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too..
Also:
Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then.
Either most of the Swarm Host strats dominate in the European and North American ladders and barely in Korea, or the Koreans just don't give a crap and find their own solutions or accept it.
On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD
Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too..
Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then.
I think you're overestimating Jaedong's ZvZ, I don't think he'd do very well against top zergs in GSL and Proleague.
On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD
Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too..
Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then.
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote: haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious.
On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD
Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too..
Also:
Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then.
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
No it wasn't. That was still a rarity for if it somehow got to a late game. At the end of WoL that happened in like what? Symbol vs RorO? Nestea vs DRG?
For like 95% of the ZvZ games out there it was roach/infestor/hydra with ling/bane and mutas frequently seen in the early stages.
Early HotS ZvZ sucked imo. Same problem we have now but more volatile.
So basically, remove Stephano and Firecake from the game. Koreans think hosts are fine, they aren't used much in NA, and EU uses them as a stale-mate crutch.
Not even all European zergs are saying they're a problem though either. TLO seems pretty fine with the current situation, which is cool. Love all the responses though :D
On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD
Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too..
Also:
Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then.
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
The best ZvZ games of all time just about:
Dimaga vs Nestea Nestea vs Fruitdealer DRG vs Nestea Life vs Leenock (Wol and Hots) Hyun vs Sniper Life vs Freaky Symbol vs Losira Sen vs Zenio DRG vs Effort Violet vs Symbol Symbol vs Soo Yugioh vs Soulkey Leenock vs DRG (Atlantis spaceship)
I'm not certain good ZvZ has to do with the unit comps as much as that essential quality of both players being one sneeze away from death.
On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote: haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious.
On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD
Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too..
Also:
Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then.
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
The best ZvZ games of all time just about:
Dimaga vs Nestea Nestea vs Fruitdealer DRG vs Nestea Life vs Leenock (Wol and Hots) Hyun vs Sniper Life vs Freaky Symbol vs Losira Sen vs Zenio DRG vs Effort Violet vs Symbol Symbol vs Soo Yugioh vs Soulkey Leenock vs DRG (Atlantis spaceship)
I'm not certain good ZvZ has to do with the unit comps as much as that essential quality of both players being one sneeze away from death.
wasn't there a nestea vs symbol game on Atlantis spaceship that was epic? i remember ultras and tons of spines
On May 20 2014 09:04 Bagration wrote: I guess Koreans tend to be more decisive and are more adept at killing the opponent, rather than let Stephano sit back and get back into the game by making swarmhosts
This has always been true. I've always found Koreans are much better at timings than foreigners. On the downside, it can lead to more boring play because players can be very afraid of tech switches to lengthen and make the game more entertaining.
Also, Hyun and Hydra have been around the BW scene for ages. And in BW, there was no Blizzard patch support. If things are against you, they're against you. So I think these old BW players in general are more inclined to try to figure out how to deal with issues instead of complaining. Because complaining didn't work in BW given that there are no patches. Only way to deal with imba is maps.
On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote: haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious.
On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD
Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too..
Also:
Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then.
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
The best ZvZ games of all time just about:
Dimaga vs Nestea Nestea vs Fruitdealer DRG vs Nestea Life vs Leenock (Wol and Hots) Hyun vs Sniper Life vs Freaky Symbol vs Losira Sen vs Zenio DRG vs Effort Violet vs Symbol Symbol vs Soo Yugioh vs Soulkey Leenock vs DRG (Atlantis spaceship)
I'm not certain good ZvZ has to do with the unit comps as much as that essential quality of both players being one sneeze away from death.
wasn't there a nestea vs symbol game on Atlantis spaceship that was epic? i remember ultras and tons of spines
That sounds more like July vs Nestea to be honest.
Stephano is just a genius that could make anything work. He's so much better than most of the EU players that he could infuriate them with multiple strats.
On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote: haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious.
On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD
Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too..
Also:
Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then.
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
The best ZvZ games of all time just about:
Dimaga vs Nestea Nestea vs Fruitdealer DRG vs Nestea Life vs Leenock (Wol and Hots) Hyun vs Sniper Life vs Freaky Symbol vs Losira Sen vs Zenio DRG vs Effort Violet vs Symbol Symbol vs Soo Yugioh vs Soulkey Leenock vs DRG (Atlantis spaceship)
I'm not certain good ZvZ has to do with the unit comps as much as that essential quality of both players being one sneeze away from death.
wasn't there a nestea vs symbol game on Atlantis spaceship that was epic? i remember ultras and tons of spines
Symbol vs NesTea was that final game in the reverse all-kill by Symbol on Metropolis.
Why does Blizzard keep avoiding mentioning mutas in these changes, when they're the obvious problem in ZvT? They need to either slightly nerf the muta ball, or give the terrans a viable solution against mass muta. Something like an upgrade to increase the power of turrets, which wouldn't impact the other matchups.
More and More I think the Swarm Hosts must a completely reworked or be scratched off the game. Sure its flavorful but it doesn't work. A good idea that didn't work out. Sincerely hope they replace or rework it from 0 for LotV
interesting stuff. i guess this answers why i have always been so confused at all these Swarmhost stalemates in ZvZ discussion. i've only seen a single long SH vs SH ZvZ and it was Stephano vs Jaedong, which wasn't even a stalemate. apparently this only happens in EU and i almost only watch Korean starcraft.
On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote: haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious.
Sniper vs HyuN was a good final with lots of back and forth games RorO vs Symbol was the one with brood lord vs brood lord fight mid map on Akilon Flats
SH are not needed in TvZ mech. A roach/hydra ball with vipers accomplishes the same thing while keeping the match dynamic. Problem is, SH are too easy to use and require no micro, which is why so many Zergs resort to using them.
Very instructive. Blizzard's reluctance in addressing swarm hosts despite the outcries of the community, is much more understandable when the Korean scene is considered.
I agree with Hyun, ZvT feels slightly Zerg favored in the moment but we're seeing quite a bit of Terran innovation lately so I'd rather wait to see how it plays out. Definitely disagree with Nerchio about biomine though, I think MMM + Hellbat Thor with a transition more and more into a mech composition looks a lot more solid as a 'standard' playstyle these days.
Interesting to see all the KR Zerg players saying SH isn't a problem in ZvZ. I have to agree with them, if your opponent tries to transition into SH from behind a baneling + anything bust will crush them (baneling ultra is niche but really effective, Hyun says Roaches).
Love this. Just goes to show that Koreans trust in the fact that there will be a counter for everything, even though it might take a while to find and a lot of effort to implement it in their play. I'm on their side with this, I think it's really awesome to see all players of a race working together to define a new meta. Thanks for the interviews.
First time I hear pro agree to a change that put them at disadvantage in one matchup (hellbat/hellion transfo servos) .
This change is seriously good for the game as it allows terran to mix up some strategies . Being very mobile with hellion in early mid game and still have core unit for the mid game is very cool as it allows terran to go for more aggressive build. This could be seen in both TvP and TvZ. Also it could bring back some hellbat drop love.
I like how Hydra said that the problem is Stephano's SH and when he plays against other koreans he doesn't stand a chance. I recall that Stephano almost beat Jaedong though. Also, I'm sure I'm making some kind of horrible miscalcutation, but what if locusts cooldown was longer? Maybe they could even buff SH but give them a very long down time, so the zerg would be forced to unborrow and pull back much more.
On May 20 2014 16:15 Anacreor wrote: Love this. Just goes to show that Koreans trust in the fact that there will be a counter for everything, even though it might take a while to find and a lot of effort to implement it in their play. I'm on their side with this, I think it's really awesome to see all players of a race working together to define a new meta. Thanks for the interviews.
Because they interviewed zergs, most of which don't go late game swarm hosts. If they interviewed terran about ZvT, they'd probably get different answers. They simply don't face the situation these changes are planning to address.
These are the same responses that happened during infestor broodlord times. If they fix swarmhosts by the time legacy of the void comes out people aren't going to look back say that swarmhosts weren't completely breaking the game...
It is weird that nobody mention that ZvZ stalemate appeared because of the last patch.
Since the questions are mostly about SH why not asking these questions to SH players or people who frequently face these players (mech players for example) ? It seems that Blizzard decided to patch the game because of some games from Stephano, would be nice to hear what he has to say about SH.
On May 20 2014 20:00 FireCake wrote: It is weird that nobody mention that ZvZ stalemate appeared because of the last patch.
Since the questions are mostly about SH why not asking these questions to SH players or people who frequently face these players (mech players for example) ? It seems that Blizzard decided to patch the game because of some games from Stephano, would be nice to hear what he has to say about SH.
Actual problem is the spore buff, as the queen buff was in BL/infestor time. just my opinion.
weird to ask these players about this topic imo. non of the koreans sticks out as a good swarm hosts player to me(at least not in the turtle/mass static defense kind of way). nerchio never uses them, tlo only recently started playing with them and hendralisk doesnt seem to use them much either.
I mean it is still interesting to read what they think about it but I think there are better players to ask about this subject.
On May 20 2014 20:00 FireCake wrote: It is weird that nobody mention that ZvZ stalemate appeared because of the last patch.
Since the questions are mostly about SH why not asking these questions to SH players or people who frequently face these players (mech players for example) ? It seems that Blizzard decided to patch the game because of some games from Stephano, would be nice to hear what he has to say about SH.
Actual problem is the spore buff, as the queen buff was in BL/infestor time. just my opinion.
I was talking about the last patch, not the beginning of HoTs ^^
Even without the spore buff, the SH army is the best composition in ZvZ late game. Look how many times a broodlord need to kill a spore. Big mutas switch could become a little harder to defend for the SH player but if he keeps some infestor/hydra he is completly safe.
On May 20 2014 21:03 iHirO wrote: Would making massive units immune to abduct break the game?
This would make the abduct spell as useful as the neural parasite.
[image loading] Acer.Nerchio: I don't think there is a problem in ZvT and even if there is, the advantage for Z is really small. I don't quite understand why Terrans don't use the typical bio mine composition that often anymore because it was really good in the past. I believe people follow patterns a little bit too much so if there is a Korean player in a big tournament that shows something else like bio mech then he changes the meta game for the next few months.
Lol what Nerchio doesn't seem to be taking into account is that Widow Mines used to be stronger the past and the meta game hasn't been that figured out, yet.
But overall good read and quite objective opinions not often seen by pros.
Yeah, now ask 10 terran pro gamers that play mech about TvZ mech and let's see if they agree on swarmhosts being fine. I agree that they are necessary ,but i disagree that they're fine as they are right now. Even a small nerf would keep them very viable versus mech and we won't have to see mech into bio or fast double upgrade bio styles only. It's very map specific that we get to see full on mech nowadays. In my opinion right now swarmhosts are like tanks in siege mode but with longer range. You make enough of them and you lock terran on 3-4 , maybe on very few maps 5 bases and then you take the whole map, get to 10k10k and win. The only way to play mech now is to go all in on 3 base with 2 attack and to turtle to mass raven viking which you can do with bio anyways.
On May 20 2014 14:28 Videoboysayscube wrote: SH are not needed in TvZ mech. A roach/hydra ball with vipers accomplishes the same thing while keeping the match dynamic. Problem is, SH are too easy to use and require no micro, which is why so many Zergs resort to using them.
if roach/hydra is "harder to use" then it does not accomplish the same thing. if your army is easier to control then you have more apm/multitasking etc. to focus on other aspects of the game, your macro, etc. saying a more difficult strategy "accomplishes the same thing" is ridiculous, the whole point of playing is to win as quickly and/or efficiently as you feel you're able to
also swarm hosts are a lategame army which makes them more stable if you have to transition and fail to kill your opponent. hitting a timing requires that you do x amount of damage, creating a macro army means you can stabilize throughout the game. it's the same exact reason mechers turtle to raven/viking, and it's funny because mech players do that compulsively much more reliably than zergs tend to go for swarm hosts. we make swarm hosts if we feel like we have to in order to not die against protoss or mech deathballs.
The dichotomy of Korean and Foreign answers is really interesting. It's easy to see why Blizzard is hesitant to make any changes, as the players who play the most have almost no complaints.
On May 20 2014 22:23 purakushi wrote: Balance aside, the swarm host, as it is currently, is a boring unit. That should be the thing that is addressed first.
That depends on the play style and not on the unit itself. Ravens and Tanks aren't really a boring units, especially Tanks that you have to position perfectly for them to be useful, but we still see those Ravens, Tanks and Planetary Fortress turtle mech games that are boring as hell.
Very interesting. Almost every pro seem to agree the proposed anti-stalemate changes miss the point. I think they should do as they say : leave everything untouched for the time being, maybe decrease slightly spore +damage vs bio, and test Snute's idea (broodlords rule the sky and can't be abducted).
Everybody seems to agree as well that the hellbat patch should be a good idea to help T in the mu they struggle the most with atm.
On May 20 2014 22:23 purakushi wrote: Balance aside, the swarm host, as it is currently, is a boring unit. That should be the thing that is addressed first.
That depends on the play style and not on the unit itself. Ravens and Tanks aren't really a boring units, especially Tanks that you have to position perfectly for them to be useful, but we still see those Ravens, Tanks and Planetary Fortress turtle mech games that are boring as hell.
Link us a game where Swarm Host is not used as a boring stalemate unit to start.
On May 20 2014 22:23 purakushi wrote: Balance aside, the swarm host, as it is currently, is a boring unit. That should be the thing that is addressed first.
That depends on the play style and not on the unit itself. Ravens and Tanks aren't really a boring units, especially Tanks that you have to position perfectly for them to be useful, but we still see those Ravens, Tanks and Planetary Fortress turtle mech games that are boring as hell.
Link us a game where Swarm Host is not used as a boring stalemate unit to start.
The state of the ZvT matchup must be really lopsided when even zerg pros, whose livelihood hinges on their performance, are unanimously willing to admit to having an advantage. I wonder what terran pros would have said had they been asked the same question.
Why can't they revert the mine changes and give it back its original strength? Soulkey beat Innovation during that time. Last year the game was very exciting to watch, and the outcome of zvt matches not as predictable.
On May 20 2014 22:23 purakushi wrote: Balance aside, the swarm host, as it is currently, is a boring unit. That should be the thing that is addressed first.
That depends on the play style and not on the unit itself. Ravens and Tanks aren't really a boring units, especially Tanks that you have to position perfectly for them to be useful, but we still see those Ravens, Tanks and Planetary Fortress turtle mech games that are boring as hell.
Link us a game where Swarm Host is not used as a boring stalemate unit to start.
On May 21 2014 00:13 diverzee wrote: The state of the ZvT matchup must be really lopsided when even zerg pros, whose livelihood hinges on their performance, are unanimously willing to admit to having an advantage. I wonder what terran pros would have said had they been asked the same question.
Why can't they revert the mine changes and give it back its original strength? Soulkey beat Innovation during that time. Last year the game was very exciting to watch, and the outcome of zvt matches not as predictable.
Huh? Pros are usually pretty honest about this stuff. When you say their livelihood depends on it, it's a truth with some modification. Their livelihood fundamentally depends on people watching the game, and if it becomes heavily imbalanced or boring, people will stop watching and their careers will cease to exist. Sc2 has already taken more beatings than Stalingrad in this respect, I think most pros are perfectly aware of the fact that unless people tune in, winning or losing makes no difference.
Stephano always said straight up that zerg was OP vs toss in WoL, even as he was running roughshod over Code S protosses.
On May 21 2014 00:13 diverzee wrote: The state of the ZvT matchup must be really lopsided when even zerg pros, whose livelihood hinges on their performance, are unanimously willing to admit to having an advantage. I wonder what terran pros would have said had they been asked the same question.
Why can't they revert the mine changes and give it back its original strength? Soulkey beat Innovation during that time. Last year the game was very exciting to watch, and the outcome of zvt matches not as predictable.
they can´t revert the mine changes because mines were far too strong compared to the the rest of your factory units and taking away strategic diversity in the matchup.
if anything the current problem with tvz derives from a lack of mobility on the terran side of things. let me illustrate:
back in the wol days balance was doing ok, yes the infestor was op but that was fine as far as balance goes since the Mutalisk wasn´t a problem. So basically Terrans army was slower (tanks slowed you down a lot medivacs had no speed boosters) but Zerg had even less mobility ( infestors instead of mutas ).
when hots came around maps got bigger and zerg armys became faster, even to a point where all their units(muta ling bling) have a mobility advantage over stimmed bio and thus puttting Terrans into a defensive position in the meta. This wasn´t a major problem at first because Terran still had the advantage in raw costefficiency due to 4m. Maps like neo planet s where the most important spaces on the map where narrow ramps that even gave highground advantage made up for Terrans disadvantage in mobility and alllowed for drilling plays. But when Neo planet etc where exchanged for frost and co and the widowmine was nerfed, drilling became an ineffecient option and left Terrans drop play as the only solution to playing the matchup. Unfortunately though, Mutas not only answered drop play but were discovered as a tool to elevator Zergs army Value and cost efficiency in harrasment plays resulting in nearly unbeatable 40+ muta flocks that could only be stopped by a combination of marine thor that offered little to no agressive potential for Terrans.
So now we are at a point where Terrans are struggling at all fronts. They have lesser agressive potential in the early game while at the same time their early late game (16-20 minutes) suffers from an army value disadvantage due to the way Zerg economy management functions. This basically left Terran with two options either a) try to end the game with a 3-3 bio timing. Or b) out value the Zerg army and economy with mech/air play. But both of these are easily read and countered by a Zerg player of equal skill. a) just requires good creepspread and a ton of muta ling bane while b) has a hard time against starving-, counterattack- and timing oriented play.
Possible solutions to the problem can be: a) Terran adapts and creates a new lategame oriented style that retains its cost efficiency even in the face of an overwhelming Zerg macro advantage. we have seen the beginnings of this in the rise of Mech and Bio-Mech compositions but they have yet to become a convincing way to play the meta. b) Beef up Terrans midgame potential by either buffing Terran in some way, nerfing Zergs midgame (e.g. slow down creep spread, smaller maps, increase Thor damage vs mutas etc) speed up Terrans growth in some sort of way (e.g: Cheaper infrastructur, faster unit production, increased efficiency of Mules, enable Production facilitties to produce units while creating addons, introduce a +1 range upgrade for marines, etc) c) strengthen Terrans defenses (buff Siegetanks further, enable building armor without the upgrade, strenghen Bunkers, cheapen Planetary fortresses, reduce widowmine cooldown and increase its activation range (this one could be counted under b* aswell)
thats about it. oh and @ op what kind of shitty biased train are you riding mate... why the hell would you call this thread pro opinions and only let Zerg pros have a say!??!?
I think the only reason koreans don't cry about swarmhosts in ZvZ is because they don't want to get them nerfed for the other match ups where they are most important. Foreigners seem want their cake and then eat it too. I'm not sure if they're being naive to want them nerfed only for ZvZ and be completely ignorant about how overpowered they are against mech or protoss( before they get every unit ). I'm pretty sure this post is pointless since the topic is already pretty much dead but whatever.
Do we have stats on ZvT? If any balance change happens, it should first be the maps, then reverting some of the mine splash nerf (the last balance change) and then maybe changing hellion/hellbat servos. I don't think jumping in to balance servos now is a great idea...
Link us a game where Swarm Host is not used as a boring stalemate unit to start.
Jaedong vs Alive on Heavy Rain (a month ago or sth, might've been on Katowice IEM tournament actually, anyway - if anyone has a link - hopefully could "help" this )
On May 20 2014 21:03 iHirO wrote: Would making massive units immune to abduct break the game?
Unfortunately yes. Abduct is necessary for zerg to be able to deal with protoss air units like the tempest, carrier, or mothership. Without abduct, beating a toss air army would be pretty much impossible.
Great idea to ask the opinion of only Zerg progamers. You know, the people who actually play the game with swarm hosts and their wins equal their salary.
On May 21 2014 08:23 Psychobabas wrote: Great idea to ask the opinion of only Zerg progamers. You know, the people who actually play the game with swarm hosts and their wins equal their salary.
wtf... this article... lol
blizzard most recently released a patch note announcement discussing the issue of zvz swarm host vs swarm host play as illustrated by stephano and specifically said that they are not looking to make an immediate change to swarm hosts in zvp as they're essential to the matchup and it would create a chain reaction of necessary changes and design issues. zvt is not really relevant to swarm hosts in the slightest as mech has never been fully standard and bio vs ling bling muta is what's broken for terran, and if you're going to start messing with swarm host turtle vs mech then there's no reason not to look at nerfing skyterran turtle vs zerg as well
so yeah, the reason the article is this way is because zvz swarm hosts are what people have been talking about. asking about swarm hosts in the other matchups was an afterthought, the swarm host vs p/mech meta hasn't really changed in the past couple of months nor have the design issues. if anything, the only change has been that protoss has gotten very very effective at shutting swarm hosts down with mass tempest transitions
I like how Nerchio still manage to complain about protoss in a discussion about sh and ZvT ^^
I know my opinion as a spectator doesn't have much value, but I feel like there is no problem with swarm host. As a wooden league player, I almost insta lose to them but it's mostly because you have to move arund constantly to avoid them, with require too much apm for me ^^ My assumption is that in the ZvZ matchup, it should be the same, mobility is the key counter, and even the most turtly style can be cracked by multipronged harass since sh can't move fast(regardless of static d). Btw, I always wondered why don't the zergs EVER use drops? One last thing, I read in the thread people calling the swarm host a no micro unit. From watching stephano stream I can assure you it is not true. The player must always babysit his swarm hosts, micro his locusts, position them according to the movement of his opponent etc. It looks very hard to do this strategy well honestly, and I don't think anyone can call it a no micro unit.
Swarm Hosts are like tanks. They're positional units. They give you space to operate because they can cover a certain portion of the map. And like tanks they can be re-positioned depending on where you need the space. So the way you want to control them is different from most units in the game.
Personally I'm okay with them. But I've also always liked tank plays in general, even back to BW days. A lot of times during SH games, I just look at the mini-map and see where the player's re-positioning and re-directing the SHs. But let's face it, most people hated the mech v. mech TvTs of the old GomTvT days and for the same reason they hate SHs now. Action is always more fun than inaction.
On May 21 2014 13:30 Elitios wrote: I like how Nerchio still manage to complain about protoss in a discussion about sh and ZvT ^^
I know my opinion as a spectator doesn't have much value, but I feel like there is no problem with swarm host. As a wooden league player, I almost insta lose to them but it's mostly because you have to move arund constantly to avoid them, with require too much apm for me ^^ My assumption is that in the ZvZ matchup, it should be the same, mobility is the key counter, and even the most turtly style can be cracked by multipronged harass since sh can't move fast(regardless of static d). Btw, I always wondered why don't the zergs EVER use drops? One last thing, I read in the thread people calling the swarm host a no micro unit. From watching stephano stream I can assure you it is not true. The player must always babysit his swarm hosts, micro his locusts, position them according to the movement of his opponent etc. It looks very hard to do this strategy well honestly, and I don't think anyone can call it a no micro unit.
Drops might be easier to pull of with the spore probably being nerfed against bio-air.
If the game were balanced, lots of Zergs would call Terran imba, and lots of Terrans would call Zerg imba. Since Zerg stopped calling Terran imba a long time ago, you can guess that they have an advantage in this mu.
Now considering Zergs in this interview went as far as admitting they had "a slight advantage", be sure that the ZvT balance at pro level has largely shifted towards Zerg.
On May 21 2014 17:25 SiroKO wrote: If the game were balanced, lots of Zergs would call Terran imba, and lots of Terrans would call Zerg imba. Since Zerg stopped calling Terran imba a long time ago, you can guess that they have an advantage in this mu.
Now considering Zergs in this interview went as far as admitting they had "a slight advantage", be sure that the ZvT balance at pro level has largely shifted towards Zerg.
On May 21 2014 15:40 baubo wrote: Swarm Hosts are like tanks. They're positional units. They give you space to operate because they can cover a certain portion of the map. And like tanks they can be re-positioned depending on where you need the space. So the way you want to control them is different from most units in the game.
Personally I'm okay with them. But I've also always liked tank plays in general, even back to BW days. A lot of times during SH games, I just look at the mini-map and see where the player's re-positioning and re-directing the SHs. But let's face it, most people hated the mech v. mech TvTs of the old GomTvT days and for the same reason they hate SHs now. Action is always more fun than inaction.
Swarmhost function in no way like tanks, there's a hundred times more mobility in them.
Swarm Hosts are invisible, pretty fast, always behind a layer of vision (Creep Tumors/Locust) and have a massive range, Siege Tanks are only powerful presieged, worthless when moving, slower, squishy, no stealth, no vision defense. Their only advantage is Splash.
Swam Host cover so much more space and so much more effectively. There's a reason we never see Tanks and Swarm Host appear ever other game.
On May 21 2014 02:45 Lobotomist wrote: Do we have stats on ZvT? If any balance change happens, it should first be the maps, then reverting some of the mine splash nerf (the last balance change) and then maybe changing hellion/hellbat servos. I don't think jumping in to balance servos now is a great idea...
Blizzard never reverts nerfs unfortunately, so that's not going to happen.
Also this article (like the proposed changes) is focused on zvz, of course we only asked zergs -.-
On May 21 2014 02:45 Lobotomist wrote: Do we have stats on ZvT? If any balance change happens, it should first be the maps, then reverting some of the mine splash nerf (the last balance change) and then maybe changing hellion/hellbat servos. I don't think jumping in to balance servos now is a great idea...
Blizzard never reverts nerfs unfortunately, so that's not going to happen.
Also this article (like the proposed changes) is focused on zvz, of course we only asked zergs -.-
I'd love to see transformation servos removed because I'd love to see hellions actually transform. Nobody does it. It's cool. Fix it. Ditto I'd like to see greater map pool variety so we don't see protoss dominate for a few months, then zerg, then terran, etc. like has been happening for the past year or so.
The changes to zerg units on the other hand (spore vs hydra thing) I don't think is at all necessary. If swarm hosts were so good that they were frequently the optimal choice in ZvZ, fine. I don't think that's even remotely the case, so whatever. If you choose to go swarm hosts, or to not bust a swarm-hosting player aggressively, that's your problem.
On May 22 2014 04:14 404AlphaSquad wrote: Yay let us ask only Zerg players on the changes. Noone cares for the opinion of those players representing the rest of the playerbase ^^
It's a ZvZ issue. Should they interview terran players about ZvP issues, too?
On May 21 2014 08:23 Psychobabas wrote: Great idea to ask the opinion of only Zerg progamers. You know, the people who actually play the game with swarm hosts and their wins equal their salary.
wtf... this article... lol
On May 21 2014 16:36 Xiphias wrote: - "Let's ask all the zerg players of what they think of a unit that helps them win the game!"
Zerg players: "It's OK!"
How about asking some protoss and terran players as well?
On May 22 2014 04:14 404AlphaSquad wrote: Yay let us ask only Zerg players on the changes. Noone cares for the opinion of those players representing the rest of the playerbase ^^
Did you guys all attend the same smart alec conference call or something*?
Or is this just what happens when people run out of things to talk about in a thread.
Not like they lied. You try playing vs mech without SH and see the opponent just not giving a fuck and camping hard with spread tanks. They aren't good looking but vs mech they are necessary (unless they put something new). Note that this isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
On May 22 2014 17:51 Xiphias wrote: "Do you think there is a problem with Swarm Hosts in ZvT?"
Did you read this article?
... Opinion on Hellbats and swarmhost, based on the suggested balance change. It's to ask about what they think about the patch and the patch direction if it's correct or not. Notice how everything is based on the suggested patch?
I also find it funny how all this discussion about nerfing swarmhost is ENTIRELY based on a few games by Stephano, man this boy has an impact on the game. If koreans don't see a problem with SH, i don't see any reason to nerf 'em, all i see is a bunch of frustrated players whining about it because they didn't know how to react.
They can add ability to blinding cloud that slowly kills locusts (also it can have effect on infested terrans or even broodlings? :D ) a bit of plaguetechy thing = so that player with SHs must backup SH army with roaches hydras etc = not only mass SHs = more fun to watch 2nd option
Swarm hosts affected by blinding cloud cant spawn locusts ( because locusts dont like the smog while hatchin :-) ) = player using them must relocate them = more micro intensive thing = shorter games but funnier!
3rd option (more micro intensive thing in every matchup)
Add SHs degeneration while burrowed and regeneration while unburrowed
4th option
Ultras immune vs locusts - tech switch to ultras almost game ending vs mass SHs 5th option
Infestors Fungal growth insta kill locusts .. or add to them some ability to fight with locusts since they are less and less used in ZvZ because i like them :-) 6th option
For option 1 i don't think there's a category of units that can be targeted since it's biological light, it would affect marines, lings, blings, hydras etc...
I like option 2. Make sense.
3rd option : I don't know about this. I don't like it but i have no argument to back this up.
4th option : Ultra immune vs locust ? So Massive biological units couldn't be targeted ? That's feasable. I don't think there is other bio massive unit.
5th : You would need locust to be a special type of unit to get killed like that.
6th option : Chuck Norris kills player with criters so there's no need for that, also overlords shoot locusts when Chuck norris plays
From the GSL games I've watched recently I see no problem at all, I'd say relying on SH actually makes it harder to win than easier. IMO the reason we see them less in Korea and more in NA and EU is because it takes less multitasking skill to be good with SH than with a heavy tech switch style of play but the latter strat will be better if you have the multitask and apm to pull it off.
For ZvZ, I think blinding clouds should stop loccust from spawning. In this case you can reach a timming when he moves his SH or not. And could become harder for positionning.
On May 24 2014 00:34 knOxStarcraft wrote: From the GSL games I've watched recently I see no problem at all, I'd say relying on SH actually makes it harder to win than easier. IMO the reason we see them less in Korea and more in NA and EU is because it takes less multitasking skill to be good with SH than with a heavy tech switch style of play but the latter strat will be better if you have the multitask and apm to pull it off.
Haha, something rofled about when I read this - you know - that precious moment when a single person "gets" it ages after everyone else, and then describing a thing that's like forever there for ages as if it's a "new miracle" or something..
Where I live - we call "Columbus" those guys - they basically re-discovered America (reinventing the wheel, or - reinventing the steel - is the right phrase in English for that kind of a "doing" I guess)
On May 24 2014 00:34 knOxStarcraft wrote: From the GSL games I've watched recently I see no problem at all, I'd say relying on SH actually makes it harder to win than easier. IMO the reason we see them less in Korea and more in NA and EU is because it takes less multitasking skill to be good with SH than with a heavy tech switch style of play but the latter strat will be better if you have the multitask and apm to pull it off.
There is no balance problem with them. Though I disagree with what you are saying. SHs are better. The reason why in the GSL they are not as popular is probably the same as when it took Terrans ages to develop Mech TvZ in WoL and HotS and ages until BL/Infeator took over Korea: Koreans play styles where you can slap an opponent around because as long as you build up momentum you cant die yourself. And defensive styles just require a much more fleshed out game plan to allow for that. Until the Koreans are absolutly certain that everything is defendable and their opponents have to take risks themselves against defensive play that the defensive player then can punish, they dont play defensive.
I think it's just a great way to emphasize on your own skill how they play, but ultimately worse if they play an equally strong opponent.
European tldr; Swarmhost too strong, but it's necessary.
Korean tldr; No problem, play with us on Korean server, we will show you how to play SC2 correctly.
And yeah, if pro players are saying that a matchup is slightly favored to one side, that means the matchup is more than just a little favored. Remember the days when everyone who got interviewed said their race was the weakest?
On May 24 2014 00:34 knOxStarcraft wrote: From the GSL games I've watched recently I see no problem at all, I'd say relying on SH actually makes it harder to win than easier. IMO the reason we see them less in Korea and more in NA and EU is because it takes less multitasking skill to be good with SH than with a heavy tech switch style of play but the latter strat will be better if you have the multitask and apm to pull it off.
Koreans use mobility of units a lot better than foreigners, that is the only one reason. Remember about Stephano era in WoL. He said that vs koreans is playing with Ultras alot easier to win than with Broodlords.
On May 24 2014 00:34 knOxStarcraft wrote: From the GSL games I've watched recently I see no problem at all, I'd say relying on SH actually makes it harder to win than easier. IMO the reason we see them less in Korea and more in NA and EU is because it takes less multitasking skill to be good with SH than with a heavy tech switch style of play but the latter strat will be better if you have the multitask and apm to pull it off.
Haha, something rofled about when I read this - you know - that precious moment when a single person "gets" it ages after everyone else, and then describing a thing that's like forever there for ages as if it's a "new miracle" or something..
Where I live - we call "Columbus" those guys - they basically re-discovered America (reinventing the wheel, or - reinventing the steel - is the right phrase in English for that kind of a "doing" I guess)
Something rofled about when I read this - why is everyone still bitching about it if everyone "gets it".
On May 22 2014 21:11 Dawg_Snow wrote: Lol at nerchio biased opinion.
I also find it funny how all this discussion about nerfing swarmhost is ENTIRELY based on a few games by Stephano, man this boy has an impact on the game. If koreans don't see a problem with SH, i don't see any reason to nerf 'em, all i see is a bunch of frustrated players whining about it because they didn't know how to react.
I wouldn't be so sure that it's just "players not knowing what to do". Stephano has a knack for finding the most abuseable thing possible (AKA the thing that works the best) and he exploits it to its fullest potential. Stephano is single-handedly responsible for a lot of the meta changes in WoL. For instance, Stephano kind of invented the 4-queen opening into fast third (as we know it today), while Koreans were still stuck in the meta of early gas and 2-base tech plays; at the time, Koreans didn't think much of his play, but it ended up shining through as the standard because it was just A BETTER WAY TO PLAY.
Anyways, my point is: Obviously, there are ways to beat SHs in ZvZ. But don't just pretend that Stephano is just a silly gimmicky player that gets the occasional win; this guy sees the future, and has historically shown that he can change the meta by finding something that works better.
On May 22 2014 21:11 Dawg_Snow wrote: Lol at nerchio biased opinion.
I also find it funny how all this discussion about nerfing swarmhost is ENTIRELY based on a few games by Stephano, man this boy has an impact on the game. If koreans don't see a problem with SH, i don't see any reason to nerf 'em, all i see is a bunch of frustrated players whining about it because they didn't know how to react.
Even if they fix SH finally, it is utterly boring to watch and play.
I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote: I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..
Would've preferred an Ultralisk-focused solution instead, though it's hard to pull it off without hindering the SHost or making the Ultra OP in some ways
======================================================================================== But yeah - thought about the following instead: locusts ATM have 12 starting damage and 15 with max upgrades.. I was thinking of reducing Locust starting damage of 5x2 = 10, and then with 2 damage per ups = 16 i.e. - (5+3)x2.. Now - considering that the Ultralisks currently have 6 Armor on max (starting 1 + 3x1-per upgrade + 2-chitinous upgrade) = (5+3-6)x2 = 4 damage..
In other words - hindering the SHosts a bit will make Ultras tank 125 Locust shots EACH, and they have a decent splash to maybe even "chew" through a couple of waves before they finally get down, so it might be just the "change" that's required to break the stalemate.. As a change would require probably to remove the Ultralisk's Neural-Immunity to make somewhat reasonable chance of Infestor-Locust play
Ofcourse = there would be some "minor" side-effects to the other matchups (so it's not just a fix, but a couple of changes as well) --> such as high-armored units will tank a lot more Locust shots (such as Thor for example = would tank Locust damage twice as much - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but think Thors currently have a starting armor of 2 and they can get their armor up to 5), as well as maybe the biggest side-effect would be that the Immortals will die to Locust fire almost twice as fast instead..
Still - kinda prefer that approach overall instead.. Will make ZvZ better, and will make Mech better vs SHost (a bit better), will make Planetaries a bit harder to snipe with Locust fire (especially with Building Armor upgrade), AND will make Immortals harder to "preserve" in PvZ I guess
Think all those changes are kinda "positive" in each own way, whilest everything else mainly remains as currently is done.. The main downside of the change is 0-attack Locusts will do 2 less damage and will lose a lot more dps due to target's armor upgrades, but usually SHosts are never built before at least 1-range-attack upgrade has been researched anyway
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote: I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..
The thing is, you can kill Broodlords with units. Like corrupters, mutalisks...you can't kill SH because static D.
as mentioned a few times already here and in various other discussion boards about swarm hosts, not everyone plays the stephano style. not everyone is comfortable or good at that playstyle.
with that said, protoss have quite a few counters to the swarm host style - and that particular counter also stops almost every option zerg has, EXCEPT for swarm host play. Vipers and SH have good synergy, i don't think you could really take that away from the two, no matter what the circumstance or "change". unless vipers lose binding cloud and abduct, they will always work extremely well together, kind of like how immortals and sentries are so good when used together.
i don't see many games play out "stephano-style", so if it's a nerf to his particular playstyle, it will only affect the very very tiny minority that use that playstyle. in ladder it doesn't happen often, and the most common way i see swarm hosts use are with vipers and hydra cover. sometimes it's not even SH in mass (look at how rekatan uses them); some just use a very strategic way of hit and run with locusts, and i think that was the most effective way to play since beta.
personally, on an unrelated note, i wish some variation of the lurker was implemented into the game instead of the SH, and the "free unit" concept...but David Kim is standing his ground on trying to create his own game and well this is what we get.
sh is a unique unit and definately my favorite in this expansion, but i really hope they dont' change them in ZvP...without buffing other avenues that can stop deathballs more efficiently. hydra/roach is not the win-all way to go, even with vipers. sh do such a good job at splitting enemy armies (protoss) and forcing hit and run type games in Toss vs Zerg, rather than stupid dull deathball vs deathball, that i kind of hope it remains the same.
ZvZ...well...no matter what you do, or what you change....this matchup will always be such a volatile cluster you-know-what. i'm kind of happy brood lords will be significant in the matchup again though...should be an interesting change in meta.
Korean answers are awsome. Hyun... is like "I think its fine" ...."I dont have a problem" ... shows that Koreans adapt to the game pretty well and dont cry OP or IMBA... they "Uhh... uhhhh ......Find a way....."
I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?
Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote: I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?
Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
Equally, if I can get opinions based from only GMs and grandmasters, why do I care if you think it's not an issue?
That said, I think everyone's come to the conclusion that there isn't any problems, just that it was a very unfamiliar playstyle, and Blizzard reacted a little bit too strongly to it.
I think Stephano did it just to prove it could be done, but like the Korean players it's not really an issue, because if you have some advantage that forces them to turtle into SH you should be making other stuff that can kill them.
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote: I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..
Any "who has more of" game revolves around other aspects of the game itself, so I don't really see it as an issue. If you want to have more BLs, fight for the economy to have more BLs. if you want him to have less, cripple his economy.
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote: I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?
Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote: I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?
Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
hey but I didn't even say they were a problem..?
Pretty sure most of us care a lot more about what Hendralisk thinks that what SixStrings (who the hell is that?!) thinks
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/images/race/SC2Z10.png)
Liquid`Snute: Yes, players can turtle up on one base to force a draw like we've seen in a few broadcasted matches now. The games last for 2 hours and it doesn't weigh heavily enough if a player is far ahead in economy. The Spore/Viper/SH/Infestor combination is too strong for its cost. Swarm Hosts are not overpowered in the midgame, but in the endgame they're way too strong compared to more expensive-per-supply units such as Brood Lords, Corruptors, Banelings and Infestors.
don't have too many comments on this one.
"
