On May 22 2014 21:11 Dawg_Snow wrote: Lol at nerchio biased opinion.
I also find it funny how all this discussion about nerfing swarmhost is ENTIRELY based on a few games by Stephano, man this boy has an impact on the game. If koreans don't see a problem with SH, i don't see any reason to nerf 'em, all i see is a bunch of frustrated players whining about it because they didn't know how to react.
Even if they fix SH finally, it is utterly boring to watch and play.
I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote: I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..
Would've preferred an Ultralisk-focused solution instead, though it's hard to pull it off without hindering the SHost or making the Ultra OP in some ways
======================================================================================== But yeah - thought about the following instead: locusts ATM have 12 starting damage and 15 with max upgrades.. I was thinking of reducing Locust starting damage of 5x2 = 10, and then with 2 damage per ups = 16 i.e. - (5+3)x2.. Now - considering that the Ultralisks currently have 6 Armor on max (starting 1 + 3x1-per upgrade + 2-chitinous upgrade) = (5+3-6)x2 = 4 damage..
In other words - hindering the SHosts a bit will make Ultras tank 125 Locust shots EACH, and they have a decent splash to maybe even "chew" through a couple of waves before they finally get down, so it might be just the "change" that's required to break the stalemate.. As a change would require probably to remove the Ultralisk's Neural-Immunity to make somewhat reasonable chance of Infestor-Locust play
Ofcourse = there would be some "minor" side-effects to the other matchups (so it's not just a fix, but a couple of changes as well) --> such as high-armored units will tank a lot more Locust shots (such as Thor for example = would tank Locust damage twice as much - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but think Thors currently have a starting armor of 2 and they can get their armor up to 5), as well as maybe the biggest side-effect would be that the Immortals will die to Locust fire almost twice as fast instead..
Still - kinda prefer that approach overall instead.. Will make ZvZ better, and will make Mech better vs SHost (a bit better), will make Planetaries a bit harder to snipe with Locust fire (especially with Building Armor upgrade), AND will make Immortals harder to "preserve" in PvZ I guess
Think all those changes are kinda "positive" in each own way, whilest everything else mainly remains as currently is done.. The main downside of the change is 0-attack Locusts will do 2 less damage and will lose a lot more dps due to target's armor upgrades, but usually SHosts are never built before at least 1-range-attack upgrade has been researched anyway
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote: I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..
The thing is, you can kill Broodlords with units. Like corrupters, mutalisks...you can't kill SH because static D.
as mentioned a few times already here and in various other discussion boards about swarm hosts, not everyone plays the stephano style. not everyone is comfortable or good at that playstyle.
with that said, protoss have quite a few counters to the swarm host style - and that particular counter also stops almost every option zerg has, EXCEPT for swarm host play. Vipers and SH have good synergy, i don't think you could really take that away from the two, no matter what the circumstance or "change". unless vipers lose binding cloud and abduct, they will always work extremely well together, kind of like how immortals and sentries are so good when used together.
i don't see many games play out "stephano-style", so if it's a nerf to his particular playstyle, it will only affect the very very tiny minority that use that playstyle. in ladder it doesn't happen often, and the most common way i see swarm hosts use are with vipers and hydra cover. sometimes it's not even SH in mass (look at how rekatan uses them); some just use a very strategic way of hit and run with locusts, and i think that was the most effective way to play since beta.
personally, on an unrelated note, i wish some variation of the lurker was implemented into the game instead of the SH, and the "free unit" concept...but David Kim is standing his ground on trying to create his own game and well this is what we get.
sh is a unique unit and definately my favorite in this expansion, but i really hope they dont' change them in ZvP...without buffing other avenues that can stop deathballs more efficiently. hydra/roach is not the win-all way to go, even with vipers. sh do such a good job at splitting enemy armies (protoss) and forcing hit and run type games in Toss vs Zerg, rather than stupid dull deathball vs deathball, that i kind of hope it remains the same.
ZvZ...well...no matter what you do, or what you change....this matchup will always be such a volatile cluster you-know-what. i'm kind of happy brood lords will be significant in the matchup again though...should be an interesting change in meta.
Korean answers are awsome. Hyun... is like "I think its fine" ...."I dont have a problem" ... shows that Koreans adapt to the game pretty well and dont cry OP or IMBA... they "Uhh... uhhhh ......Find a way....."
I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?
Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote: I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?
Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
Equally, if I can get opinions based from only GMs and grandmasters, why do I care if you think it's not an issue?
That said, I think everyone's come to the conclusion that there isn't any problems, just that it was a very unfamiliar playstyle, and Blizzard reacted a little bit too strongly to it.
I think Stephano did it just to prove it could be done, but like the Korean players it's not really an issue, because if you have some advantage that forces them to turtle into SH you should be making other stuff that can kill them.
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote: I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..
Any "who has more of" game revolves around other aspects of the game itself, so I don't really see it as an issue. If you want to have more BLs, fight for the economy to have more BLs. if you want him to have less, cripple his economy.
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote: I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?
Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote: I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?
Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
hey but I didn't even say they were a problem..?
Pretty sure most of us care a lot more about what Hendralisk thinks that what SixStrings (who the hell is that?!) thinks
EPT
