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Pro Opinions: Swarm Hosts and Hellbats - Page 8

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
154 CommentsPost a Reply
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Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
May 24 2014 21:44 GMT
#141
On May 22 2014 21:11 Dawg_Snow wrote:
Lol at nerchio biased opinion.

I also find it funny how all this discussion about nerfing swarmhost is ENTIRELY based on a few games by Stephano, man this boy has an impact on the game. If koreans don't see a problem with SH, i don't see any reason to nerf 'em, all i see is a bunch of frustrated players whining about it because they didn't know how to react.

Even if they fix SH finally, it is utterly boring to watch and play.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
May 25 2014 08:00 GMT
#142

Remove enduring locusts upgrade from the game.

Then make locusts a bit faster. Otherwise SH will become completely useless
v0rtex
Profile Joined November 2011
123 Posts
May 25 2014 08:42 GMT
#143
I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore
JD, Snute, TLO, Soulkey, $o$, HerO, Suppy, Hendralisk, MKP, Maru
VArsovskiSC
Profile Joined July 2010
Macedonia563 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-25 13:16:19
May 25 2014 13:06 GMT
#144
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote:
I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore

TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..

Would've preferred an Ultralisk-focused solution instead, though it's hard to pull it off without hindering the SHost or making the Ultra OP in some ways

========================================================================================
But yeah - thought about the following instead: locusts ATM have 12 starting damage and 15 with max upgrades.. I was thinking of reducing Locust starting damage of 5x2 = 10, and then with 2 damage per ups = 16 i.e. - (5+3)x2.. Now - considering that the Ultralisks currently have 6 Armor on max (starting 1 + 3x1-per upgrade + 2-chitinous upgrade) = (5+3-6)x2 = 4 damage..

In other words - hindering the SHosts a bit will make Ultras tank 125 Locust shots EACH, and they have a decent splash to maybe even "chew" through a couple of waves before they finally get down, so it might be just the "change" that's required to break the stalemate.. As a change would require probably to remove the Ultralisk's Neural-Immunity to make somewhat reasonable chance of Infestor-Locust play

Ofcourse = there would be some "minor" side-effects to the other matchups (so it's not just a fix, but a couple of changes as well) --> such as high-armored units will tank a lot more Locust shots (such as Thor for example = would tank Locust damage twice as much - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but think Thors currently have a starting armor of 2 and they can get their armor up to 5), as well as maybe the biggest side-effect would be that the Immortals will die to Locust fire almost twice as fast instead..

Still - kinda prefer that approach overall instead.. Will make ZvZ better, and will make Mech better vs SHost (a bit better), will make Planetaries a bit harder to snipe with Locust fire (especially with Building Armor upgrade), AND will make Immortals harder to "preserve" in PvZ I guess

Think all those changes are kinda "positive" in each own way, whilest everything else mainly remains as currently is done.. The main downside of the change is 0-attack Locusts will do 2 less damage and will lose a lot more dps due to target's armor upgrades, but usually SHosts are never built before at least 1-range-attack upgrade has been researched anyway
Another world, another place, another universe, won the race.. :) ;) :P
Snijjer
Profile Joined September 2011
United States989 Posts
May 25 2014 17:26 GMT
#145
The difference in answers about Swarmhosts in ZvZ is great.

Id like to see what the foreigners would have to say about the Korean answers.
SpawnMoarOverlords
Profile Joined April 2014
400 Posts
May 25 2014 17:37 GMT
#146
On May 25 2014 22:06 VArsovskiSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote:
I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore

TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..



The thing is, you can kill Broodlords with units. Like corrupters, mutalisks...you can't kill SH because static D.
Cassalina
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States65 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-26 02:07:01
May 26 2014 02:05 GMT
#147
as mentioned a few times already here and in various other discussion boards about swarm hosts, not everyone plays the stephano style. not everyone is comfortable or good at that playstyle.

with that said, protoss have quite a few counters to the swarm host style - and that particular counter also stops almost every option zerg has, EXCEPT for swarm host play. Vipers and SH have good synergy, i don't think you could really take that away from the two, no matter what the circumstance or "change". unless vipers lose binding cloud and abduct, they will always work extremely well together, kind of like how immortals and sentries are so good when used together.

i don't see many games play out "stephano-style", so if it's a nerf to his particular playstyle, it will only affect the very very tiny minority that use that playstyle. in ladder it doesn't happen often, and the most common way i see swarm hosts use are with vipers and hydra cover. sometimes it's not even SH in mass (look at how rekatan uses them); some just use a very strategic way of hit and run with locusts, and i think that was the most effective way to play since beta.

personally, on an unrelated note, i wish some variation of the lurker was implemented into the game instead of the SH, and the "free unit" concept...but David Kim is standing his ground on trying to create his own game and well this is what we get.

sh is a unique unit and definately my favorite in this expansion, but i really hope they dont' change them in ZvP...without buffing other avenues that can stop deathballs more efficiently. hydra/roach is not the win-all way to go, even with vipers. sh do such a good job at splitting enemy armies (protoss) and forcing hit and run type games in Toss vs Zerg, rather than stupid dull deathball vs deathball, that i kind of hope it remains the same.

ZvZ...well...no matter what you do, or what you change....this matchup will always be such a volatile cluster you-know-what. i'm kind of happy brood lords will be significant in the matchup again though...should be an interesting change in meta.

my 2 cents.
"advance solidly, fight solidly"
Roboroadkill
Profile Joined August 2013
United States16 Posts
May 28 2014 02:56 GMT
#148
Pretty much agree with Snute and TLO on the majority of this.
Hey guys its roboroadkill
Jornada
Profile Joined February 2012
United States223 Posts
May 28 2014 19:28 GMT
#149
Korean answers are awsome. Hyun... is like "I think its fine" ...."I dont have a problem" ... shows that Koreans adapt to the game pretty well and dont cry OP or IMBA... they "Uhh... uhhhh ......Find a way....."

NA and EU players take note
www.twitch.tv/jornada28 Master Protoss. Follow me on Twitter for SC2 Updates https://twitter.com/#!/elelvlent
SixStrings
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Germany2046 Posts
June 09 2014 22:40 GMT
#150
I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?

Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
June 09 2014 22:57 GMT
#151
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote:
I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?

Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?


Equally, if I can get opinions based from only GMs and grandmasters, why do I care if you think it's not an issue?

That said, I think everyone's come to the conclusion that there isn't any problems, just that it was a very unfamiliar playstyle, and Blizzard reacted a little bit too strongly to it.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Socup
Profile Joined June 2014
190 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-09 23:17:41
June 09 2014 23:02 GMT
#152
I think Stephano did it just to prove it could be done, but like the Korean players it's not really an issue, because if you have some advantage that forces them to turtle into SH you should be making other stuff that can kill them.

On May 25 2014 22:06 VArsovskiSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2014 17:42 v0rtex wrote:
I think the change to broodlords so that vipers cannot pull them is exactly what was needed. Hopefully we won't be seeing any 3 hour long ZvZ's anymore

TBH I don't like that change.. Right now the ZvZ might be about who has more SHosts and better Viper-control, but it will be who has the more Broodlords instead.. It might open up some "counter-attacking-avenues", still - the matchup will still be a lot of stale..



Any "who has more of" game revolves around other aspects of the game itself, so I don't really see it as an issue. If you want to have more BLs, fight for the economy to have more BLs. if you want him to have less, cripple his economy.
There's no reason blizzard can't release new units or fixes to a game without creating another costly "expansion" you've already paid 100$ for, unless they want to treadmill the gambler with future promises of "it gets better"
sudete
Profile Joined December 2012
Singapore3054 Posts
June 11 2014 05:21 GMT
#153
Hyun's answers are all pretty much spot on imo.
Year of MaxPax
coL.hendralisk
Profile Joined September 2009
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
June 11 2014 19:02 GMT
#154
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote:
I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?

Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?


hey but I didn't even say they were a problem..?
imJealous
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1382 Posts
June 11 2014 19:10 GMT
#155
On June 12 2014 04:02 coL.hendralisk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2014 07:40 SixStrings wrote:
I don't know, if a couple of well respected and undeniably successful Koreans say it's not a problem, why should I care again what a 'pro' like Hendralisk (who the hell is that?!) thinks?

Is it so far fetched that there just isn't any problem?


hey but I didn't even say they were a problem..?

Pretty sure most of us care a lot more about what Hendralisk thinks that what SixStrings (who the hell is that?!) thinks
... In life very little goes right. "Right" meaning the way one expected and the way one wanted it. One has no right to want or expect anything.
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