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Conclusion: koreans dont give fucks
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So basically, remove Stephano and Firecake from the game. Koreans think hosts are fine, they aren't used much in NA, and EU uses them as a stale-mate crutch.
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Not even all European zergs are saying they're a problem though either. TLO seems pretty fine with the current situation, which is cool. Love all the responses though :D
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I love this.
Pretty clear indication that ZvT is favoured towards Z right now when even the Z players admit it.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too.. Also: Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then. haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp. zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D
The best ZvZ games of all time just about:
Dimaga vs Nestea
Nestea vs Fruitdealer
DRG vs Nestea
Life vs Leenock (Wol and Hots)
Hyun vs Sniper
Life vs Freaky
Symbol vs Losira
Sen vs Zenio
DRG vs Effort
Violet vs Symbol
Symbol vs Soo
Yugioh vs Soulkey
Leenock vs DRG (Atlantis spaceship)
I'm not certain good ZvZ has to do with the unit comps as much as that essential quality of both players being one sneeze away from death.
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Canada16217 Posts
On May 20 2014 10:35 [Erasmus] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote:
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious. 
it was Sniper vs HyuN but yeah 
On May 20 2014 11:23 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote:On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too.. Also: Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then. haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp. zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D The best ZvZ games of all time just about: Dimaga vs Nestea Nestea vs Fruitdealer DRG vs Nestea Life vs Leenock (Wol and Hots) Hyun vs Sniper Life vs Freaky Symbol vs Losira Sen vs Zenio DRG vs Effort Violet vs Symbol Symbol vs Soo Yugioh vs Soulkey Leenock vs DRG (Atlantis spaceship) I'm not certain good ZvZ has to do with the unit comps as much as that essential quality of both players being one sneeze away from death.
wasn't there a nestea vs symbol game on Atlantis spaceship that was epic? i remember ultras and tons of spines
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On May 20 2014 09:04 Bagration wrote:
I guess Koreans tend to be more decisive and are more adept at killing the opponent, rather than let Stephano sit back and get back into the game by making swarmhosts
This has always been true. I've always found Koreans are much better at timings than foreigners. On the downside, it can lead to more boring play because players can be very afraid of tech switches to lengthen and make the game more entertaining.
Also, Hyun and Hydra have been around the BW scene for ages. And in BW, there was no Blizzard patch support. If things are against you, they're against you. So I think these old BW players in general are more inclined to try to figure out how to deal with issues instead of complaining. Because complaining didn't work in BW given that there are no patches. Only way to deal with imba is maps.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On May 20 2014 11:24 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 10:35 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote:
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious. it was Sniper vs HyuN but yeah Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 11:23 stuchiu wrote:On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote:On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too.. Also: Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then. haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp. zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D The best ZvZ games of all time just about: Dimaga vs Nestea Nestea vs Fruitdealer DRG vs Nestea Life vs Leenock (Wol and Hots) Hyun vs Sniper Life vs Freaky Symbol vs Losira Sen vs Zenio DRG vs Effort Violet vs Symbol Symbol vs Soo Yugioh vs Soulkey Leenock vs DRG (Atlantis spaceship) I'm not certain good ZvZ has to do with the unit comps as much as that essential quality of both players being one sneeze away from death. wasn't there a nestea vs symbol game on Atlantis spaceship that was epic? i remember ultras and tons of spines
That sounds more like July vs Nestea to be honest.
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Stephano is just a genius that could make anything work. He's so much better than most of the EU players that he could infuriate them with multiple strats.
If its not in KR, its not a real issue.
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Very cool to see the pro korean reactions to it and how they think if Stephano did it against Koreans it wouldn't work.
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On May 20 2014 08:44 tauon wrote:
It's interesting that the Koreans tend to favour the status-quo but the foreigners want change.
Huh? Most of the koreans said that zerg was favored in ZvT, thats not asking to keep the status quo
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On May 20 2014 11:24 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 10:35 [Erasmus] wrote:On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote:
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious. it was Sniper vs HyuN but yeah Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 11:23 stuchiu wrote:On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote:On May 20 2014 09:50 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Glad to see the zergs aren't as shameful as the Protoss players in admitting ZvT is slightly in favor of the zergs xD Dunno if I'd agree that it's just a foreigner thing. I could see this spreading to Korea. The EU zergs were ahead of the curve in SH-turtle ZvP as well. iirc didn't Stephano attempt his SH style against Jaedong and almost beat him? He's like one of the best ZvZ players in the world too.. Also: Rather than looking at Swarm Hosts, I think it would be better if they tweaked Infestors. Right now the range on fungal growth is 10, but I think it would be okay to decrease the range a little and give back its bonus damage vs. armor. Fungal becoming weak is the reason that all we're seeing in ZvZ nowadays is all-roach fights.
Hyun nailed it. The infestor may have ruined ZvP and ZvT in WoL, but ZvZ was way better back then. haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp. zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D The best ZvZ games of all time just about: Dimaga vs Nestea Nestea vs Fruitdealer DRG vs Nestea Life vs Leenock (Wol and Hots) Hyun vs Sniper Life vs Freaky Symbol vs Losira Sen vs Zenio DRG vs Effort Violet vs Symbol Symbol vs Soo Yugioh vs Soulkey Leenock vs DRG (Atlantis spaceship) I'm not certain good ZvZ has to do with the unit comps as much as that essential quality of both players being one sneeze away from death. wasn't there a nestea vs symbol game on Atlantis spaceship that was epic? i remember ultras and tons of spines
Symbol vs NesTea was that final game in the reverse all-kill by Symbol on Metropolis.
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Why does Blizzard keep avoiding mentioning mutas in these changes, when they're the obvious problem in ZvT? They need to either slightly nerf the muta ball, or give the terrans a viable solution against mass muta. Something like an upgrade to increase the power of turrets, which wouldn't impact the other matchups.
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More and More I think the Swarm Hosts must a completely reworked or be scratched off the game.
Sure its flavorful but it doesn't work. A good idea that didn't work out.
Sincerely hope they replace or rework it from 0 for LotV
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Austria11528 Posts
interesting stuff. i guess this answers why i have always been so confused at all these Swarmhost stalemates in ZvZ discussion. i've only seen a single long SH vs SH ZvZ and it was Stephano vs Jaedong, which wasn't even a stalemate. apparently this only happens in EU and i almost only watch Korean starcraft.
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they should rework swarmhosts, nerchio @pvz and zvz...
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United States97276 Posts
On May 20 2014 10:35 [Erasmus] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2014 10:30 blade55555 wrote:
haha do you not remember how zvz was going at the end? It was turning into bl/hydra/infestor and was going just as bad as zvp.
zvz was terrible in wol, early hots zvz was amazing with only muta wars :D Oh man, that Sniper vs. whoever GSL final... with the game with two groups of mass broodlord just facing off mid map. How was that not glorious.
Sniper vs HyuN was a good final with lots of back and forth games
RorO vs Symbol was the one with brood lord vs brood lord fight mid map on Akilon Flats
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SH are not needed in TvZ mech. A roach/hydra ball with vipers accomplishes the same thing while keeping the match dynamic. Problem is, SH are too easy to use and require no micro, which is why so many Zergs resort to using them.
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Very instructive. Blizzard's reluctance in addressing swarm hosts despite the outcries of the community, is much more understandable when the Korean scene is considered.
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"Also, it's possible to just counter them with one big roach-bane attack."
Such Hyun.
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EPT
