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This topic will be moderated VERY severely. Balance whining and effortless posting will be bannable. Keep the discussion constructive, and generally avoid bad posting as well as posting incorrect advice. Thanks. |
On March 22 2014 15:25 Traceback wrote:
Using the reaper to scout is already hit or miss, and it relies on your reaper not dieing. If the Protoss does manage to pick off your reaper, what then? Do you just end up in a lucky scan or you're blind situation?
Being so reliant on a single fragile reaper doesn't seem very solid. Is there a backup plan?
It's not solid, that's why I recommend a scan. Even then it's not foolproof as mentioned before in the thread.
On March 22 2014 15:51 Yurie wrote:
How viable is a double reaper opening?
The upside as I see it is you get scouting and if it is a blink attack there is nothing at home so you can do a lot of economic damage. With one reaper it is easy to block scouting, with two you can take different paths or often just go through the blocking force.
Double reaper has a harder time against oracles, however, kas was doing it a couple weeks back on his stream though into a 1-1-1 and managed to hold oracle harass with mines, marines, and a medivac.
The thing about getting 2-3 reapers against protoss is that it delays your stim, and stim is the critical upgrade for terran. Once terran has stim the roles of the matchup reverse and terran should always be attacking.
I think double reaper is map situational, because on maps like habitation station you can't jump up a cliff into the main, there is only one scouting path so it doesn't matter if you have one or three reapers.
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On March 22 2014 06:56 SupahSang wrote:
The problem is that it's almost impossible to hold a blink all-in without losing at least 6 or 7 SCVs, since you have to repair the bunkers to hold it off. The moment the SCVs start repairing away, you simply target the SCVs repairing, and keep up with your blink micro (note that I'm in gold, so blink micro is rather lack luster when I'm defending).
If you have outstanding micro, it's basically a super safe way to get your opponent to nearly half the worker amount that you have.
You should check your settings, and make sure that Health Bars for "Damaged" units is on. This is helpful because if the Stalkers are shooting at your SCV's and not the bunkers, 1) the units are doing damage to the Stalkers and the Bunker is taking no damage or very little 2) pulling away damaged SCV's and replacing them with full health SCV's is a good way to save them and still repair. The 2nd is a little harder to pull off but you should be able to save a couple.
Also, does anyone know the desired amount of SCV's to use to repair against a certain number of Stalkers? This would be helpful so Terran's aren't over committing too many SCV's for repair, or pulling too little to repair. Also, the number of SCV's should vary depending on the Stalker count of course, so keeping that in mind should be useful. Keeping a spotter or patroling unit like 1 marine in the usual attack paths or reinforcement locations the Protoss use should tip you off pretty reliably to when exactly the enemy Stalkers arrive, or when the reinforcement Pylon is going down. The Protoss shouldn't engage without a reinforcement Pylon relatively close by to warp-in most effectively. So holding off on pulling SCV's to repair in order to squeak out some more resources before committing to them to the defense could be huge.
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On March 22 2014 16:05 ArTiFaKs wrote:Something to notice as well is the Pylon positioning when you initially scout the Protoss, since important tech structures have to be placed near/around that pylon (obviously). But lately Protoss' have become really good at the simcity of their initial Pylon + Gateway to wall off 1 scout path of the Reaper (and sometimes CyberCore if necessary) to make it easier to hide the important tech structure since they can just place it behind the Gateway wall and zone out the Reaper w/ the MsC and/or Stalker because the path the Reaper takes is now more predictable. So checking for these pylon locations can make a Scan more successful if necessary to scout the Blink play, or the follow up tech if the Blink was just pressure and not an all-in. Also, like the OP mentioned being diligent around the map checking for pylon(s)/probe(s) is a great way to know pressure is incoming or delaying the pressure successfully by killing the probe or pylon. This can be accomplished by being active with the Reaper if kept alive, or blocked from further scouting in the Protoss main. It seems once the Stalkers are in front of your base with a Pylon set up, it's too late to get any scouting done. But since ~9 mins is the attack timings most associated with 2-base Blink, sneaking out 1 unit (whether it be an SCV or 1 Marine or if the Reaper survived) to scout the Natural Gas Timings, or main base if possible for transition information could be very helpful in being able to transition yourself or identify if the Protoss is fully committed. Just a couple thoughts I wanted to pitch in. The Pylon placements early on are pretty important, and the Protoss tech is almost always in a secure location that is simple to defend or shield from a pesky Reaper since in PvT drops are so prevalent and strong. Getting down these little nuances in the Protoss play could be key in defending/identifying which style of Blink pressure they are going for, or if at all. GL HF! Great job OP and everyone who has compiled information here, it's nice to see the community coming together again to help solve this problem  although I'll be sad because my Protoss skills will be much weaker, I'll be happy thinking/playing the game different in response to what Terran's figure out! Which is why Starcraft is so great in the first place! Edit: Sorry for the wall of text but something else I forgot to mention: I noticed in a game I watched recently (sorry I forget who it was exactly) that early on if the reaper is defended and blocked from scouting fully, poking with just a small group of units at the natural to draw the enemy army out of position while sneaking the reaper up into the main to scout what hasn't been seen yet is something that works and is relatively safe as well. Just making sure the units don't get kited is the hard part though.
I feel so silly for not mentioning the thought process behind scan placement. You want to scan where you reaper hasn't seen, and you know for sure a pylon could power a building.
For me though, a question I want answered is whether to use the reaper as move-out scouting or to suicide for tech scouting.
As it stands I prefer keeping the reaper alive as it's the fastest unit on the map before stim and can scout the edges for pylons effectively.
On March 22 2014 16:26 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 06:56 SupahSang wrote:
The problem is that it's almost impossible to hold a blink all-in without losing at least 6 or 7 SCVs, since you have to repair the bunkers to hold it off. The moment the SCVs start repairing away, you simply target the SCVs repairing, and keep up with your blink micro (note that I'm in gold, so blink micro is rather lack luster when I'm defending).
If you have outstanding micro, it's basically a super safe way to get your opponent to nearly half the worker amount that you have. You should check your settings, and make sure that Health Bars for "Damaged" units is on. This is helpful because if the Stalkers are shooting at your SCV's and not the bunkers, 1) the units are doing damage to the Stalkers and the Bunker is taking no damage or very little 2) pulling away damaged SCV's and replacing them with full health SCV's is a good way to save them and still repair. The 2nd is a little harder to pull off but you should be able to save a couple. Also, does anyone know the desired amount of SCV's to use to repair against a certain number of Stalkers? This would be helpful so Terran's aren't over committing too many SCV's for repair, or pulling too little to repair. Also, the number of SCV's should vary depending on the Stalker count of course, so keeping that in mind should be useful. Keeping a spotter or patroling unit like 1 marine in the usual attack paths or reinforcement locations the Protoss use should tip you off pretty reliably to when exactly the enemy Stalkers arrive, or when the reinforcement Pylon is going down. The Protoss shouldn't engage without a reinforcement Pylon relatively close by to warp-in most effectively. So holding off on pulling SCV's to repair in order to squeak out some more resources before committing to them to the defense could be huge.
I think 3 SCVs per bunker that is most likely to be blinked on is good (6 total), once they have 3 rounds of stalkers though you probably want 2-3 per bunker and simply transfer them from one bunker to another once they stalker location is revealed.
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Italy12246 Posts
Thoughts on Terran scouting the Protosss followup:
Let's assume that you do your 6:30 scan. I feel like on every map, you should designate an area to scout with your reaper where he can easily get out, without covering the entire main. This would probably be natural expansion, as well as the edge of the main. The rest of the main should be covered by a (fast) scan.
If you can do this, you can keep your reaper alive (no need to sac it behind a mineral line while 3 stalkers chase it for example), while at the same time spotting the Toss tech somewhat reliably. Having the reaper alive also allows you to easily identify the followup: take a tower with it, as soon as you see the stalkers move out hide it somewhere, and go back to the natural one-two minutes later. Check for gasses, as well as a third base.
I haven't seen any Terran trying this method of scouting before, and while extremely multitask-intensive (you have to stay alive vs the blink player in the meantime), i think it really could help in defending blink builds.
Thoughts? The big assumption here is being able to cover a full Protoss base with a scan and a reaper, while keeping the reaper alive. Blink friendly maps are also reaper friendly, so i think it's doable.
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On March 22 2014 19:09 Teoita wrote:
Thoughts on Terran scouting the Protosss followup:
Let's assume that you do your 6:30 scan. I feel like on every map, you should designate an area to scout with your reaper where he can easily get out, without covering the entire main. This would probably be natural expansion, as well as the edge of the main. The rest of the main should be covered by a (fast) scan.
If you can do this, you can keep your reaper alive (no need to sac it behind a mineral line while 3 stalkers chase it for example), while at the same time spotting the Toss tech somewhat reliably. Having the reaper alive also allows you to easily identify the followup: take a tower with it, as soon as you see the stalkers move out hide it somewhere, and go back to the natural one-two minutes later. Check for gasses, as well as a third base.
I haven't seen any Terran trying this method of scouting before, and while extremely multitask-intensive (you have to stay alive vs the blink player in the meantime), i think it really could help in defending blink builds.
Thoughts? The big assumption here is being able to cover a full Protoss base with a scan and a reaper, while keeping the reaper alive. Blink friendly maps are also reaper friendly, so i think it's doable.
I feel this is 100% applicable, though, as you mentioned, multitask-intensive. Maps I can see this being a problem on are Habitation Station due to lower number of Reaper entry points as well as Polar Night, since he can park two Stalkers on the ridge and the MSC/3rd Stalker at the nat and it's really hard to get into the base at all. However, the rest of them should pose no problem. Yeonsu, Frost, Alterzim are easy shift-queue move commands, and Daedalus, while tricky, has such a massive amount of jumpable space in the natural that you should be able to juke him at some point in order to get in, and all you need is the very back line near the mineral line, as a Scan will cover the rest of that protrusion towards the dead airspace (worth noting that you will PROBABLY have to suicide there because you can get it but it's very hard to get back out due to limited space).
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I think when it comes to scouting, it's important to remember things that signal that you're not playing against a blink all-in (or any given build for that matter). Even if you don't see a twillight, it's usually easy to spot other tech structures such as a robo or an early forge. Most protoss players don't actually hide their robo. Gas timings at the natural can also be a big tell. The earliest timing for geysers 3 and 4 is 6:00, while most players will take their gases at 6:30-7:00. Taking them later doesn't even make sense, since you should have both bases saturated by 7:40-7:50 if you went msc expand. By looking for tells like these, you might be able to rule out certain builds.
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idk if this has been said, but on polar night it is possible to b link from the 3rd into the main, just saying
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Reaper/scan is a way to figure out what protoss does.
But i figured out having mines and marauders is a fantastic response to Protoss early game :
early and constant marauder prod counters stalkers;
early and constant mine prod counters oracles and blink play
Rough build :
12 rax>2 marines
12 gas
15 OC
16 supply
@100 gas factory > constant mine prod
@25 gas tech lab on the rax > constant marauder prod + conc
add starport/2nd CC as money flows in
Pros :
Blind counters oracle play and more or less everything without detection
Allows for an early attack with 2 marines/2marauders and 1/2 mines
Gets scouting info by attacking instead of using a scan/a reaper
Constant marauder/mine pumping makes a stalker based attack very hard for the protoss
Cons :
countered by 10 gate, needs probably to use autorepair scvs
initial pressure less effective on bigger maps
you need to be diligent with the first mine : if you don't know 100% there's no oracle, just keep it at home
delays eco
On big maps, you can also go reaper>factory and follow the same pattern while forgetting about the initial push.
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3 pages and only one ban so far; color me surprised.
User was warned for this post
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I think most players realise the true strengths of the blink build as described in the OP are not overpowered or imba. Its the not knowing that terran has the problems with and hence the percieved imbalance. Basically I am saying people realise its not a huge balance issue and this thread seeks to find a way for terran to see the followups of the blink build and hence the terran can react and play the game on an even footing.
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Haven't even finished with the case studies and already LOVE LOVE LOVE it. Hate defending this build, now I can't wait to try some new takes.
Okay minor note.
Not so minor for me personally, but maybe some others in the future will benefit.
ZeromuS Please put a **NSFW** tag on that song. I was in a public setting checking out the thread, other people gathering interest on a sing-songy feel good song (first girl had said how it reminded her of Don't Worry Be Happy). Then I TAKE A LOOK AT MY ENORMOUS PENIS ... to not so fun results (the unfunny prudes I'm tellin ya). The profane lyrics weren't appreciated in that setting.
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 23 2014 02:43 TwiggyWan wrote:
Reaper/scan is a way to figure out what protoss does.
But i figured out having mines and marauders is a fantastic response to Protoss early game :
early and constant marauder prod counters stalkers;
early and constant mine prod counters oracles and blink play
Rough build :
12 rax>2 marines
12 gas
15 OC
16 supply
@100 gas factory > constant mine prod
@25 gas tech lab on the rax > constant marauder prod + conc
add starport/2nd CC as money flows in
Pros :
Blind counters oracle play and more or less everything without detection
Allows for an early attack with 2 marines/2marauders and 1/2 mines
Gets scouting info by attacking instead of using a scan/a reaper
Constant marauder/mine pumping makes a stalker based attack very hard for the protoss
Cons :
countered by 10 gate, needs probably to use autorepair scvs
initial pressure less effective on bigger maps
you need to be diligent with the first mine : if you don't know 100% there's no oracle, just keep it at home
delays eco
On big maps, you can also go reaper>factory and follow the same pattern while forgetting about the initial push.
You are horribly far behind against a passive protoss player. 2 marauders, 2 mines and 2 marines do absolutely nothing against overcharge and any kind of detection (so basically, both oracle and robo builds).
The point isn't to find a terran build that blind counters a particular kind of protoss bullshit. The hard part is to find a combination of build order(s), scouting patterns, sets of reactions and possible transitions that can account for every protoss option.
@poster above me: lol will do.
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I rather see the problem in "terran vision". They just dont know where Stalkers are. A Sensor tower without gas-cost might solve this problem easily.
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Italy12246 Posts
The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss balance changes, but rather to figure out how to properly understand and react to blink builds in the current game.
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Hm, I thought my post was like a "thought provoking" how to improve terran vision outside their base. I really think this is the biggest problem for terran if stalkers are 10meter away. I often see terran army stand at natural and blink stalkers are at mainbase.
Protoss can see everytime where terran army stand because of MSC or observer. Terran doesnt have this ability.
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On March 23 2014 19:59 Dingodile wrote:
I rather see the problem in "terran vision". They just dont know where Stalkers are. A Sensor tower without gas-cost might solve this problem easily.
but the sensor power already is a very powerfull tool for the terrans, so if you not plan to max it to 1 sensor tower, this would be a very dangerous change for every matchup
just because its not often used doesnt mean it isnt strong, making it no gas cost can be to strong
i personaly think its not enough time after the msc change, if after lets say 2 ? 3 ? months its still the same, its time to take the next step, but without enough time its hard to judge what is the correct step. lile the thread says, immortal range +1 fixed the 1-1-1 and that was small as well
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United States4883 Posts
On March 23 2014 22:19 Drake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 19:59 Dingodile wrote:
I rather see the problem in "terran vision". They just dont know where Stalkers are. A Sensor tower without gas-cost might solve this problem easily. but the sensor power already is a very powerfull tool for the terrans, so if you not plan to max it to 1 sensor tower, this would be a very dangerous change for every matchup just because its not often used doesnt mean it isnt strong, making it no gas cost can be to strong i personaly think its not enough time after the msc change, if after lets say 2 ? 3 ? months its still the same, its time to take the next step, but without enough time its hard to judge what is the correct step. lile the thread says, immortal range +1 fixed the 1-1-1 and that was small as well
And +1 queen range broke the game 
Yeah, the point of this thread is not really to touch on ways Blizzard can fix the game, but rather how we, as players, can use the tools given to us to solve a problem. Already there's been a lot of discussion on how to defend, and I think everyone can more or less agree that it's possible to hold the blink all-in with fair success with a solid build and good scouting. The main issues we've been discussing otherwise is:
1) How can Terran get the information that their opponent is going blink earlier?
2) How can Terran know if it's a serious commitment to blink or just a blink pressure into macro?
3) How can Terrans reliably stop or slow down the blink pressure without drastically changing their build?
4) How can Terran scout the followup of the Protoss player while simultaneously defending blink harassment?
Personally, I think the best discussion follows Polt's counterattack style and QXC's guide about it. Being active on the map between 6:30-7:30 with a small pack of units really makes any kind of blink pressure much weaker and difficult while also achieving the goal of taking the pressure off the Terran player while they tech to medivacs. It also forces pylons and warpin points back much further. Terrans need to start doing this more often after they scout blink.
OH, one other point I wanted to bring up was Thaniri's comment on intelligent scanning. Terran players really need to note the placement of the first 3 pylons in the Protoss base. There really is no guessing with your scan as long as you know where the pylons are; whatever you miss with the reaper, you can intelligently scan so that you catch the last pylon or two. Very smart.
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On March 23 2014 22:33 SC2John wrote:
OH, one other point I wanted to bring up was Thaniri's comment on intelligent scanning. Terran players really need to note the placement of the first 3 pylons in the Protoss base. There really is no guessing with your scan as long as you know where the pylons are; whatever you miss with the reaper, you can intelligently scan so that you catch the last pylon or two. Very smart.
Hell, if you use an SCV scout after Barracks (which you should all be doing and if you aren't I will weep tears of blood and rage), you are easily able to spot the locations of all his in-base Pylons just with your SCV, and if they're close enough together and you're already going to be committed to scanning anyways (looking at you, Habitation Station), you won't even need the Reaper to verify. I mean, in most cases you will, but the Reaper isn't even necessary most of the time to verify Pylon locations, simply to have a less-expensive way to see Blink or Stargate or whatever.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 24 2014 00:33 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2014 22:33 SC2John wrote:
OH, one other point I wanted to bring up was Thaniri's comment on intelligent scanning. Terran players really need to note the placement of the first 3 pylons in the Protoss base. There really is no guessing with your scan as long as you know where the pylons are; whatever you miss with the reaper, you can intelligently scan so that you catch the last pylon or two. Very smart. Hell, if you use an SCV scout after Barracks ( which you should all be doing and if you aren't I will weep tears of blood and rage), you are easily able to spot the locations of all his in-base Pylons just with your SCV, and if they're close enough together and you're already going to be committed to scanning anyways (looking at you, Habitation Station), you won't even need the Reaper to verify. I mean, in most cases you will, but the Reaper isn't even necessary most of the time to verify Pylon locations, simply to have a less-expensive way to see Blink or Stargate or whatever.
Hehe yeah. Most of the time there are two pylons near each other in the main (to prevent any kind of 2rax or some kind of cheese from killing you instantly) and then one hidden near the outskirts of the base somewhere. 90% of the time the twilight council is hidden behind the main mineral line, other times it's off to the side on the "hidden" pylon. Very rarely, players will hide their 2nd or 3rd pylon behind the minerals at their natural expansion. Like vhapter said earlier, robos are almost never hidden; so if you can't find any tech, it's probably either stargate or twilight (or some kind of wonky proxied gate allin lol).
From a Protoss perspective, I hope that helps .
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EPT
