|
This topic will be moderated VERY severely. Balance whining and effortless posting will be bannable. Keep the discussion constructive, and generally avoid bad posting as well as posting incorrect advice. Thanks. |
Okay, my thoughts on 2-base Blink allins:
It goes without saying you have to scout this coming. You don't scout a Blink allin, you aren't going to hold it. Let's put that question aside and focus on what happens after you identify the most common 2-base blink: 6 Warp Gates, Twilight Council researching and chrono'd, plus you've seen multiple Stalkers push out.
I believe that doing what Polt does is the most consistent way of attempting to respond to a 2-base Blink play. For those of you who maybe don't remember exactly what Polt does, here's an abbreviated build order plus two example VoDs (the Rain game is against a lighter Blink pressure on 2 bases while the Classic game is a full-fledged attack on 2 bases).
Reaper FE (pulling out of gas to get a quicker CC and follow up Barracks)
3 Barracks (1 Reactor, 1 TL)
Get 1 Marauder after Stim and take map control while following normal economy and teching patterns.
If you can, force the Overcharge and back off, hiding the forces on the map.
As soon as the Protoss pushes out for the actual timing, backstab his natural and kill lots of Probes, plus force defensive warp-ins. Defend the allin with the rest of your army plus reinforcements.
Versus Rain, IEM Cologne
Versus Classic, IEM Cologne
The reason I feel like this play is the most consistent is that it relies on the two of you both being very good players for a compromise situation to be reached. Versus a Protoss who does not aggressively try to maintain his map control or who doesn't account for possible counterattacks as he prepares the allin, this build has a high chance of crushing the opponent, because 7 Marines and 1 Marauder showing up with Stim in your natural before you can start your allin when you have no units at home is extremely tough to handle. This is true to such an extent that if the defensive warpins DO happen, and you eventually kill off the backstab force, you will have lost so many Probes as well as blunted the power of your frontal assault with warpins at home that the Terran has a much easier time repairing and holding as a result.
Versus a Protoss who aggressively tries to account for this play, you need to keep constant vigilance on the map, dodging his pokes to try and find your force and attempting to not get caught in the open as the Protoss tries to move across the map with their Stalker pack. We saw this result in Polt's destruction on Polar Night at the hands of CJ_herO during IEM Katowice. If both sides posture in the mid-map and get nothing done, there is a good chance that you have delayed the start of the attack enough to get out Medivacs and enough reinforcements to have a good shot at holding if they ever do reach your side and commit to the attack.
Now, when it comes to scouting if the Protoss is actually committing or not... I really feel we as Terrans underutilize our Scans when facing an allin. It's true that having MULEs to get enough income to support repairing Bunkers is important, but in a situation where you see 6-8 Stalkers poking around the fringes of the base, but they haven't committed to Blinking in, I feel it is compulsory to either use the Reaper to verify a possible third/Templar transition or Scan for the third base. If you sit at home too long versus the fake-out type of pressure, you just let them get sufficient Storms to survive your pressure and then it's really hard to ever come back.
I think the scouting tree should go something like this:
1. SCV scout after Barracks, verify expansion and go home, checking common proxy Pylon spots that are not too far from your way.
2. Standard initial Reaper scout to verify that he has double gas, a relatively quick Stalker and the MSC.
3. Follow up Reaper sometime between 5:15 and 5:45 to check his choice of tech, BUT you have to save the Reaper here, don't just blindly suicide. Count his units at the very least. 3+ Stalkers should be a warning bell for you.
4. If you haven't yet verified, make sure that you GET the safety Marauder after Stim, and then suicide the Reaper to confirm Blink (of course, if you've already confirmed and know it IS Blink, save it for the future).
5. Move out to take some map control with the Marine/Marauder pack, THEN get Bunkers as you are making progress towards the other side.
6. If he doesn't contest mid map, force an Overcharge, pick off a lazy Stalker if possible, then stash them in a place unlikely to be scouted (ideally, pick two and bounce between them for added uncertainty).
7. As he moves out (about 8:15-8:35 or so if the build is tight - I would love Protoss confirmation on my math here), backstab the natural, the goal being to force defensive warpins, kill Probes, and kill the warping units (in that order, if my analysis of Polt is correct).
8. Prepare to defend the main push at your base with SCV/bio forces, teching to Medivacs.
9. Assuming he has somewhat defended the backstab but you haven't seen any Blinking in or a vast amount of Stalkers, use the saved Reaper or Scans to check for a possible third. If there is a third, transition to bio-mine (?) and apply Maru-style pressure; if not and it's just a delayed all-in (i.e. mass Gateway/Archon with DTs?) defend appropriately.
This is based entirely on watching Polt and Maru play TvP and trying to figure out what you can do to make the Protoss have to guess what's coming (thus the hidden backstab and attempts to take map control), as well as what might force the allin to be neutered in strength.
|
Now has any look been given to the game Illusion played against Minigun, I beleive in a WCS qualifier match? From what I could tell it was a 4 rax (I dont know if it was blind or reactionary, perhaps he suspected blink play based on the map) before factory, but I could be wrong about that. All I know was that by the time minigun tried to move out and establish his forward pylon, Illusion had enough marauders off of 4 barracks to destroy the forward force and push Minigun back.
I dont know if this was committed blink play as I cant remember the details of the game. If anybody can comment on this game specifically or the overall viability of a 4 rax strat against blink play, that would be great.
Edit: the map was Yeonsu, if that helps anybody pinpoint the game im referring to
|
I think the graphics on a couple of the maps aren't showing all blink stalker attack paths and areas that have to be defended.
Not necessarily as common of paths, but Terran can die if they aren't ready for them too.
Habitation station:
+ Show Spoiler +
Polar Night:
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On March 22 2014 05:47 Jazzman88 wrote:
Okay, my thoughts on 2-base Blink allins:
...
Excellent post.
What are your thoughts on being ahead/even/behind when you've defended or taken no damage from a low-committal Blink pressure build? Does Terran come out ahead, or should we consider ourselves even?
How do you go about pressuring or potentially doing damage to a Protoss who has transitioned off a Blink pressure build? I'm wondering if there are windows for Terran to exploit once Protoss has pulled back, or if the Protoss can hold you off as long as he doesn't make any major mistakes.
|
On March 22 2014 05:58 dday0123 wrote:I think the graphics on a couple of the maps aren't showing all blink stalker attack paths and areas that have to be defended. Not necessarily as common of paths, but Terran can die if they aren't ready for them too. Habitation station: + Show Spoiler +Polar Night: + Show Spoiler +
Yeah, the Yeonsu map is also missing a second way to blink into the natural.
|
On March 22 2014 06:01 DSong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 05:47 Jazzman88 wrote:
Okay, my thoughts on 2-base Blink allins:
...
Excellent post. What are your thoughts on being ahead/even/behind when you've defended or taken no damage from a low-committal Blink pressure build? Does Terran come out ahead, or should we consider ourselves even? How do you go about pressuring or potentially doing damage to a Protoss who has transitioned off a Blink pressure build? I'm wondering if there are windows for Terran to exploit once Protoss has pulled back, or if the Protoss can hold you off as long as he doesn't make any major mistakes.
Terran should come out ahead if you take almost no damage (i.e. minimal SCV losses) if you didn't slack on your Medivac production and have 2 Medivacs worth of units to go pressure with. If you took too many SCV losses and your Medivacs aren't hitting until 11:30, you're going to have a bad time.
If you identify it early enough and he's doing the typical Templar transition, I believe bio-mine pressure at the third is very strong, because he has no detection by going Blink pressure into Templar. However, if he chooses the more time-consuming Colossi transition, obviously Widow Mines are not ideal. However, he might be open to an SCV pull timing.
I think it boils down to the initial hold. Minimize your SCV losses, and do your damnedest to get those Medivacs out on time, while not abusing your Stim unless necessary. Even if you're forced to delay until four Medivacs to really start hitting, those four Medivacs of bio can really lay the punishment down on vanilla Gateway units. AoE tech is the obvious worry, so you just have to respond accordingly.
It's still brutally hard to judge, because these windows where he doesn't have access to detection or the appropriate AoE are small ones, especially if he NEVER intends to fully allin and takes a much faster third transition behind the Blink. Gateway count would probably be the best indicator there. For example, if you scout/Scan at 8:45 and he only has 3-4 Gates on two bases, I wouldn't worry about him going Duckdeok on your ass.
Edit: if someone who gets Blink all-inned with transition as opposed to straight up allin more often than I do can confirm my suppositions based on Polt/Maru that I'm working with here, I'd be grateful.
|
The problem is that it's almost impossible to hold a blink all-in without losing at least 6 or 7 SCVs, since you have to repair the bunkers to hold it off. The moment the SCVs start repairing away, you simply target the SCVs repairing, and keep up with your blink micro (note that I'm in gold, so blink micro is rather lack luster when I'm defending).
If you have outstanding micro, it's basically a super safe way to get your opponent to nearly half the worker amount that you have.
|
Periodically sending an scv into stalker ball can give you an idea on how much he is committing to stalkers, as in all in or not.
Or if his stalkers arent there and pressuring you send it around the map to his base, this of course won't always happen so the stalker count can help. Energy being used for time warp is a clear indicator of all in for me I feel. If it isn't all in the protoss wants to keep energy for nexus cannon to defend later.
Then again unless its high level of play a protoss just might never time warp or use it with a pressure build anyway.
|
Hello, I'm not in a very high league but I thought that maybe that could provide an 'out of the box' point of view
First, I wondered how viable a CC 1st opening was right now in TvP and which pros and cons it would have in the case of blink all ins, or which reactions it would force or encline on the Protoss that might lead to situations that would be easier to defend than a blink all in.
Second, about transitionning, I recently saw a Day9 daily about TvP Mine aggression with the focus on Maru. The key point Day9 talked about that would enable this style to be efficient was that the Protoss shoudln't have Colossi (which is the case here) and another advantage in this case, as stated above by someone else, is that the Protoss wouldn't have detection.
If needed, I will delete this post.
|
Canada13389 Posts
On March 22 2014 08:21 Ayrkrane wrote:Hello, I'm not in a very high league but I thought that maybe that could provide an 'out of the box' point of view First, I wondered how viable a CC 1st opening was right now in TvP and which pros and cons it would have in the case of blink all ins, or which reactions it would force or encline on the Protoss that might lead to situations that would be easier to defend than a blink all in. Second, about transitionning, I recently saw a Day9 daily about TvP Mine aggression with the focus on Maru. The key point Day9 talked about that would enable this style to be efficient was that the Protoss shoudln't have Colossi (which is the case here) and another advantage in this case, as stated above by someone else, is that the Protoss wouldn't have detection. If needed, I will delete this post.
Don't worry about deleting. The discussion seems to be moving well so I'm happy with that fact. Honestly there is nothing wrong with your comments! Questions are just as good if not more important than answers in discussion threads because it forces people to think about their answers even more 
|
On March 22 2014 04:12 DSong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 03:44 Shalashaka wrote:
The problem isn't the blink all in for terrans now as much as the "2 base blink contain."
If you're overly defensive and can't move out, a Protoss can go up to 3 bases and chrono out storm in ~ 60 seconds, transitioning very smoothly into a strong macro game.
I don't like these kinds of statements, simply because they are vague and unspecific. In addition, you're exaggerating the ability of Protoss to transition out of 2-base Blink pressure. It sounds like you're saying that they can drop a Nexus, a Templar Archives, and chronoboost out storm in sixty seconds, while still threatening to kill you. I may not know Protoss builds, but it just seems implausible that they can invest so much into tech and economy while still being able to kill you, especially if you are playing defensive. As I see it, the core issue you're getting at is: Against a 2-base pressure build, how does Terran walk the fine line between being too greedy and being too defensive (both of which are punished by the build)? The OP suggests that it begins with first identifying you're facing a pressure (as opposed to all-in) build, then identifying when the Protoss is beginning their transition out of the pressure. You suggest that we could modify our current build orders to better defend the pressure and put us in a stronger position after the pressure is over. For both of these approaches, we need to analyze and dissect the way Protoss is playing, rather than make blanket statements about what it seems that Protoss is able to do.
Beautifully put!
I like your way of approaching the problem
GG
|
United States4883 Posts
As always, Jazzman, your response is amazingly well-detailed and includes a lot of really solid information.
On March 22 2014 04:12 DSong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 03:44 Shalashaka wrote:
The problem isn't the blink all in for terrans now as much as the "2 base blink contain."
If you're overly defensive and can't move out, a Protoss can go up to 3 bases and chrono out storm in ~ 60 seconds, transitioning very smoothly into a strong macro game.
I don't like these kinds of statements, simply because they are vague and unspecific. In addition, you're exaggerating the ability of Protoss to transition out of 2-base Blink pressure. It sounds like you're saying that they can drop a Nexus, a Templar Archives, and chronoboost out storm in sixty seconds, while still threatening to kill you. I may not know Protoss builds, but it just seems implausible that they can invest so much into tech and economy while still being able to kill you, especially if you are playing defensive. As I see it, the core issue you're getting at is: Against a 2-base pressure build, how does Terran walk the fine line between being too greedy and being too defensive (both of which are punished by the build)? The OP suggests that it begins with first identifying you're facing a pressure (as opposed to all-in) build, then identifying when the Protoss is beginning their transition out of the pressure. You suggest that we could modify our current build orders to better defend the pressure and put us in a stronger position after the pressure is over. For both of these approaches, we need to analyze and dissect the way Protoss is playing, rather than make blanket statements about what it seems that Protoss is able to do.
The way I look I at it, the solution to figuring out the fine line between greed and defense is to find out what Protoss is doing sooner. The key issues plaguing Terran are not that Terran has no way of holding or that if they overreact they can be outmacroed. The issue is that Terran can't seem to know reliably what to do until ~7:30-8:30 and therefore have to set up their tech structure and everything accordingly at 5:30-6:30 (i.e. whether you go 2 rax, 3 rax, fast factory, etc., etc.). The mere threat of Protoss doing a blink allin, a proxy oracle, or a gateway timing is enough to force Terran into a little box where they cannot react until it's too late.
Thaniri's suggestion to change the scan timing to 6:30 is a good one to me. By 6:30, you've ruled out proxy oracle and early gateway attacks, leaving only blink, in-base oracle, DTs, or some kind of robo play left. Distinguishing between the blink and DTs is very easy because blink will already be started at this time and halfway finished. 6:30 is quite literally a conjunction period for Protoss where almost every build branches out from. Additionally, this further supports the goal of figuring out what Protoss is doing as early as possible, allowing the Terran player to react more immediately (i.e. starting marauder production, starting mine production, or adding an extra barracks, etc., etc.).
The question of how to reliably scout the tech reliably is a different one. I like the idea of actively scouting the map with a pack of units. I also think it's pretty much mandatory for Terrans to sweep the edges of the maps and the most common proxy locations with an early marine or two (after ~8). Much like how Zergs sweep their side of the map against Protoss, this will help Terrans more reliably slow down the blink pressure. In my opinion, Terrans have been much too scared to lose units and neglect a lot of scouting around the map early in the game. Protoss pressure is almost always frontal and straight across the map with a probes sneaking around the sides. Again, being able to identify a proxied building or a very suspicious pylon gives Terran the ability to know definitively what's going on a lot earlier = a lot more flexibility on how to react.
|
On March 22 2014 09:05 SC2John wrote:As always, Jazzman, your response is amazingly well-detailed and includes a lot of really solid information. Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 04:12 DSong wrote:On March 22 2014 03:44 Shalashaka wrote:
The problem isn't the blink all in for terrans now as much as the "2 base blink contain."
If you're overly defensive and can't move out, a Protoss can go up to 3 bases and chrono out storm in ~ 60 seconds, transitioning very smoothly into a strong macro game.
I don't like these kinds of statements, simply because they are vague and unspecific. In addition, you're exaggerating the ability of Protoss to transition out of 2-base Blink pressure. It sounds like you're saying that they can drop a Nexus, a Templar Archives, and chronoboost out storm in sixty seconds, while still threatening to kill you. I may not know Protoss builds, but it just seems implausible that they can invest so much into tech and economy while still being able to kill you, especially if you are playing defensive. As I see it, the core issue you're getting at is: Against a 2-base pressure build, how does Terran walk the fine line between being too greedy and being too defensive (both of which are punished by the build)? The OP suggests that it begins with first identifying you're facing a pressure (as opposed to all-in) build, then identifying when the Protoss is beginning their transition out of the pressure. You suggest that we could modify our current build orders to better defend the pressure and put us in a stronger position after the pressure is over. For both of these approaches, we need to analyze and dissect the way Protoss is playing, rather than make blanket statements about what it seems that Protoss is able to do. The way I look I at it, the solution to figuring out the fine line between greed and defense is to find out what Protoss is doing sooner. The key issues plaguing Terran are not that Terran has no way of holding or that if they overreact they can be outmacroed. The issue is that Terran can't seem to know reliably what to do until ~7:30-8:30 and therefore have to set up their tech structure and everything accordingly at 5:30-6:30 (i.e. whether you go 2 rax, 3 rax, fast factory, etc., etc.). The mere threat of Protoss doing a blink allin, a proxy oracle, or a gateway timing is enough to force Terran into a little box where they cannot react until it's too late. Thaniri's suggestion to change the scan timing to 6:30 is a good one to me. By 6:30, you've ruled out proxy oracle and early gateway attacks, leaving only blink, in-base oracle, DTs, or some kind of robo play left. Distinguishing between the blink and DTs is very easy because blink will already be started at this time and halfway finished. 6:30 is quite literally a conjunction period for Protoss where almost every build branches out from. Additionally, this further supports the goal of figuring out what Protoss is doing as early as possible, allowing the Terran player to react more immediately (i.e. starting marauder production, starting mine production, or adding an extra barracks, etc., etc.). The question of how to reliably scout the tech reliably is a different one. I like the idea of actively scouting the map with a pack of units. I also think it's pretty much mandatory for Terrans to sweep the edges of the maps and the most common proxy locations with an early marine or two (after ~8). Much like how Zergs sweep their side of the map against Protoss, this will help Terrans more reliably slow down the blink pressure. In my opinion, Terrans have been much too scared to lose units and neglect a lot of scouting around the map early in the game. Protoss pressure is almost always frontal and straight across the map with a probes sneaking around the sides. Again, being able to identify a proxied building or a very suspicious pylon gives Terran the ability to know definitively what's going on a lot earlier = a lot more flexibility on how to react.
Agreed in that finding out sooner is better. I actually just played versus a Blink pressure build off two bases (not allin). It actually worked out as a testing ground for the ideas we're bandying around here.
I opened in the style of Polt and was aggressive with the Reaper scout. After scouting the fast Twilight Council, I darted back in again about 1:30 later to see if it was 4-6 Gates or DTs. He blocked the Reaper scout with a Photon Overcharge which killed it before it saw more than 3 Gates. While I sent in the Reaper, I checked for early Pylons near my base, and found none. As a result I ruled out super fast DT play and moved cross map with about 8 Marines 1 Marauder. I caught 1 Stalker, and forced the three he warped in to back up the ramp and wait for MSC reinforcements. While that happens, I killed 12 Probes and brought the MSC down to red health. I figure at this point he's already behind so I prepare for a heavy Blink allin with double highground Bunker, prepulled SCVs at the natural, and a safety Turret for emergency DTs. I hold the pressure easily, getting an MSC kill as a result.
It turns out he was just going 3 Gate pressure with Blink, and transitioned into superfast Storm behind that. After spotting the Templar with a Scan, he forced me back across map and I enacted the Mines follow-up mentioned earlier. Worked like a charm. With no upgrades for his units, eventually the bio-mine parade and decent splits carried the day.
Observations from this game as related to your post SC2John:
1. The earliest possible detection of his plans is a huge boon. As you noted, by 6:30, he HAS to have committed to his follow-up tech unless he is stuck in 2011. Spotting the Twilight as it finished and began researching gave me lots of time to make sure I was building Marauders and hitting his natural with a poke.
2. There actually isn't a lot you can do to adjust with a 3 Rax build aside from build more Marauders. The only adjustment you need make in that case is to get gas #2 slightly earlier so you can still get Factory tech in good time. I think this is another point in its favour: you aren't going to be veering way off course, because anything you face will be responded to with just another ton of bio units.
3. Sweeping Pylon locations is a must. Even if you don't get them all in the end, a concerted effort on his part to try to get them down should tell you something, and it is NEVER bad to force him to warp in further away than he wants to. Also, Protoss do not get many early units as a rule, and he therefore can't contest all possible Pylon locations at once.
Carry on the discussion!
|
Canada13389 Posts
Im so glad this seems to be fruitful. To be honest a lot of us were worried the discussion would be way less "discussion" and much more shitposting.
This being said, I'm glad the earlier scouting is working out for you Jazzman. I hope some sort of reliable way to check for tech around 6:30 is figured out beyond the hope my reaper doesnt die or my scan hits the right spot coin flip 
|
I think the timing of the post contributed to why the quality of posts is better than we expected.
I'm sorry that I missed some of the possible attack routes on my map diagrams. My reasoning for omitting some of them was that the walking distance was just too long for Protoss and Terran should be able to position in time to receive the blink.
Since I open reaper expo into 1-1-1 in TvP I'm going to try banshees and mines against blink. I'll also try the qxc build someone linked. This weekend hopefully I have played against some blink players on ladder and can try it.
The immediate weaknesses I can see coming from it are no and stim, no medivacs. However, I will have plenty of minerals to make bunkers and fill them with marines because banshee cloak tech is probably 2 minutes later than a mine drop would come. My theory is that I can hold out for those two minutes with one reactor rax, mines, and 3-4 bunkers.
edit: I watched the qxc video, his point on making two battles that protoss can't pay attention to both that you WILL win at least one.
|
On March 22 2014 09:57 Thaniri wrote:
I think the timing of the post contributed to why the quality of posts is better than we expected.
I'm sorry that I missed some of the possible attack routes on my map diagrams. My reasoning for omitting some of them was that the walking distance was just too long for Protoss and Terran should be able to position in time to receive the blink.
Since I open reaper expo into 1-1-1 in TvP I'm going to try banshees and mines against blink. I'll also try the qxc build someone linked. This weekend hopefully I have played against some blink players on ladder and can try it.
The immediate weaknesses I can see coming from it are no and stim, no medivacs. However, I will have plenty of minerals to make bunkers and fill them with marines because banshee cloak tech is probably 2 minutes later than a mine drop would come. My theory is that I can hold out for those two minutes with one reactor rax, mines, and 3-4 bunkers.
edit: I watched the qxc video, his point on making two battles that protoss can't pay attention to both that you WILL win at least one.
How are you currently doing versus Blink with your structure? I have completed abandoned 1-1-1 openings because I have a 100% loss rate with them versus any sort of Blink build this season. I just don't feel I can get both the quality and amount of units fast enough and still be safe in a macro game.
|
On March 22 2014 10:56 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2014 09:57 Thaniri wrote:
I think the timing of the post contributed to why the quality of posts is better than we expected.
I'm sorry that I missed some of the possible attack routes on my map diagrams. My reasoning for omitting some of them was that the walking distance was just too long for Protoss and Terran should be able to position in time to receive the blink.
Since I open reaper expo into 1-1-1 in TvP I'm going to try banshees and mines against blink. I'll also try the qxc build someone linked. This weekend hopefully I have played against some blink players on ladder and can try it.
The immediate weaknesses I can see coming from it are no and stim, no medivacs. However, I will have plenty of minerals to make bunkers and fill them with marines because banshee cloak tech is probably 2 minutes later than a mine drop would come. My theory is that I can hold out for those two minutes with one reactor rax, mines, and 3-4 bunkers.
edit: I watched the qxc video, his point on making two battles that protoss can't pay attention to both that you WILL win at least one. How are you currently doing versus Blink with your structure? I have completed abandoned 1-1-1 openings because I have a 100% loss rate with them versus any sort of Blink build this season. I just don't feel I can get both the quality and amount of units fast enough and still be safe in a macro game.
I'll be honest, I don't play against blink nearly as much as the community would make you think it's happening.
The games either go into a silly base race or me defending successfully with mines and bunkers. The mines take out stalker shields completely and put mothership core HP into the red, so if the Protoss army takes a mine hit they have to blink back 4 stalkers immediately or if the MSC gets hit it will get focused down.
There's an interesting dynamic where Protoss is "against the clock" as it were because mines do damage every X seconds and medivacs are obviously paying for themselves by healing more over time. As the mine count builds up Protoss simply can't attack in any more because too many stalkers are shieldless.
I'm actually embarassed to draw from my own games though because I am just not mechanically where I used to be in starcraft and need some time to practice. I very rarely lose in the early or midgame against protoss but when it comes to 200/200 army micro battles my skill is just not there anymore.
|
Using the reaper to scout is already hit or miss, and it relies on your reaper not dieing. If the Protoss does manage to pick off your reaper, what then? Do you just end up in a lucky scan or you're blind situation?
Being so reliant on a single fragile reaper doesn't seem very solid. Is there a backup plan?
|
How viable is a double reaper opening?
The upside as I see it is you get scouting and if it is a blink attack there is nothing at home so you can do a lot of economic damage. With one reaper it is easy to block scouting, with two you can take different paths or often just go through the blocking force.
|
Something to notice as well is the Pylon positioning when you initially scout the Protoss, since important tech structures have to be placed near/around that pylon (obviously). But lately Protoss' have become really good at the simcity of their initial Pylon + Gateway to wall off 1 scout path of the Reaper (and sometimes CyberCore if necessary) to make it easier to hide the important tech structure since they can just place it behind the Gateway wall and zone out the Reaper w/ the MsC and/or Stalker because the path the Reaper takes is now more predictable. So checking for these pylon locations can make a Scan more successful if necessary to scout the Blink play, or the follow up tech if the Blink was just pressure and not an all-in.
Also, like the OP mentioned being diligent around the map checking for pylon(s)/probe(s) is a great way to know pressure is incoming or delaying the pressure successfully by killing the probe or pylon. This can be accomplished by being active with the Reaper if kept alive, or blocked from further scouting in the Protoss main.
It seems once the Stalkers are in front of your base with a Pylon set up, it's too late to get any scouting done. But since ~9 mins is the attack timings most associated with 2-base Blink, sneaking out 1 unit (whether it be an SCV or 1 Marine or if the Reaper survived) to scout the Natural Gas Timings, or main base if possible for transition information could be very helpful in being able to transition yourself or identify if the Protoss is fully committed.
Just a couple thoughts I wanted to pitch in. The Pylon placements early on are pretty important, and the Protoss tech is almost always in a secure location that is simple to defend or shield from a pesky Reaper since in PvT drops are so prevalent and strong. Getting down these little nuances in the Protoss play could be key in defending/identifying which style of Blink pressure they are going for, or if at all. GL HF!
Great job OP and everyone who has compiled information here, it's nice to see the community coming together again to help solve this problem  although I'll be sad because my Protoss skills will be much weaker, I'll be happy thinking/playing the game different in response to what Terran's figure out! Which is why Starcraft is so great in the first place!
Edit: Sorry for the wall of text but something else I forgot to mention: I noticed in a game I watched recently (sorry I forget who it was exactly) that early on if the reaper is defended and blocked from scouting fully, poking with just a small group of units at the natural to draw the enemy army out of position while sneaking the reaper up into the main to scout what hasn't been seen yet is something that works and is relatively safe as well. Just making sure the units don't get kited is the hard part though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6ut8Uds.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/elnGEyP.jpg)
