This topic will be moderated VERY severely. Balance whining and effortless posting will be bannable. Keep the discussion constructive, and generally avoid bad posting as well as posting incorrect advice. Thanks.
Special thanks to Thaniri for doing the initial research and writing the body for this thread. He spent a lot of time looking at replays and making sure we had good data to start the discussion with.
First off this thread is meant to be a discussion like the mythical days of old where Protoss players explored how to deal with the fast 200/200 Roach Max. Terran and Protoss players alike should take part in this thread. It is the belief of the SC2 TLStrat team that while strong, blink is not an insta-win in PvT. With effort, research, and understanding, it should be possible to elevate our understanding of Blink builds, and their variants in PvT to the point where execution is the deciding factor in whether one wins or loses.
This being said the goals for this thread are to: examine pro players who seem to win and how they won vs blink stalkers, examine pro players who lose and why they lost (where another player seemed to have won) against the same or similar build. We want to improve our understanding of not only how to engage but where to engage, and how to defend and scout to better prepare for incoming attack. Dealing with a blink into third is going to be very different from a 2 base blink all in and there HAS to be a difference between the two from a game plan perspective. Knowing how much you need to invest to defend the eco-oriented build is key to having either a follow up attack against the protoss to exploit some weakness, or being able to invest just enough to defend that you can choose to play macro yourself as a Terran.
This thread is NOT for balance complaints, it isn't for map complaints, it isn't a place to bitch and moan after your ladder loss. This thread is a DISCUSSION of what a Terran can do, can try to do, and should strive to do to improve your chances of holding a blink attack. Instead of spending a LOT of time researching and releasing a guide, we the TLStrat group are giving the community an opportunity to take part in learning. We are opening what we hope to be a starting point to better understanding the beautiful game of SC2. And just like when we tried to understand the Roach max, or the 1-1-1, there will be a break through.
The recent nerfs to Mothership core vision and buffs to widow mines could for all we know be the same as the Immortal six range buff in WoL against the 1-1-1. Just enough to help you hold if you play it right, but not so simple that the strategy is wiped off the face of the earth. In the end Terran will still need to execute a defense, but knowing what defense and how to do it is eluding us at this moment. Some professional Terrans have begun to see the light and we need to learn from them. That is what we are here for. Learning.
This thread is dedicated to helping Terrans deal with the recent trend of Protoss players going for two base blink stalker attacks. I'm going to throw out every piece of information that could be useful because most strategies tend to be broken by one "key."
Just remember my fellow Terrans, no matter how bad it gets this song is true for all of us. (NSFW)
Personal notes and observations:
The traditional 7:30 scan needs to be changed. Since Protoss is choosing tech at 5-6 minutes, a 6:30 scan can give confirmation of what tech path Protoss is going for if the reaper fails to scout anything.
Seeing the mothership core moving out is almost a guarentee of pressure. If you see the mothership core move out early it is important to delay any attacks by moving out with a small force and killing the probe that comes out as quickly as possible.
Widow mines are potentially good for dealing with stalkers. You only need one for each possible attack route the stalkers can take and they have no way of killing the mines because they have no detection. The flip side of this is that you will cut into your bio production to be able to afford these mines.
Stop using stim to chase stalkers unless they blinked already. They have blink to retreat, don't be silly.
Gateway units in direct engagements are worse than barracks units. One of the reasons blink is so strong early is because Protoss has many mobility advantages over Terran in the form of time warp, blink, and a faster base movement speed. This allows the Protoss player to kite the bio force in open spaces and to catch them completely out of position.
Having just a few marauders is no reason to chase the stalker army. Because concussive shells is delayed the Stalkers are only taking shield damage and can continue to kite the bio force and win the war of attrition. Terran's lower movement speed means that they must be using interception angles and meet the stalkers at their destination and not in transit.
The tech lab researching stim must be in a safe location. Having stim research picked off early is almost a guarenteed loss for Terran because stim and medivacs are the queue for Protoss to end the attack if it's not an all-in.
A scout and scan at 9 minutes can determine what follow up Protoss is planning.
Supernova on his stream actually makes tanks against 2 base blink stalker attacks regularly. I don't think that tanks are a great idea against all-ins however as the stalkers will be able to pick off the tank in one or two shots and overwhelm the Terran.
Picking off the mothership core early is amazing, that means that the stalkers can ONLY attack your natural and can be easily held off.
Looking at the map, the walk around outside the main to the natural is lengthy for the blink stalkers so they will most likely be attacking into the main. This does not mean however that you don't have to defend the natural.
Time warp is used as a zoning tool in the main base, almost as a gigantic forcefield. The stalkers can do quite a bit of damage while the Terran army struggles to get into a position to defend from.
Protoss as a rule of thumb is deciding on first tech between 5-6 minutes, which is useful for scouting.
Zest's attack begins at 9 minutes, Maru's bunkers are up in time for this.
The mothership core's placement makes aggression easy to predict, if Terran can easily track the location of the mothership core they will always be in position to defend a blink in.
Stimming to chase stalkers doesn't seem to work, it's not worth wasting the medivac energy.
It’s critical to sneak out a scout to check and stay at third base at 9 minutes. This will help determine what is coming after the attack.
After 2 base blink stalker pressure, your opponent has a weak composition because stalkers are weak against bio in general.
Once the attack is over it's important to quickly secure a third, this I think is more important than denying their third.
Protoss can follow up with either an expand, tech, or second timing. In each case they have a stalker heavy composition until about 13 minutes. (The decision looks like it’s made at 8:30) Seeing Protoss take gasses 3 and 4 can be followup timing or tech.
A second timing attack can be held by bunkers and mines because Protoss is still on gateway tech. Also useful to note is that if on equal upgrades, 4 medivacs outheal the dps of a zealot ball in the early midgame. Expand or tech means army size is too small to threaten your third.
A scan at 9 minutes would be good in this game, he’s got gas #3 and #4 at 8:41 so he is already planning out his followup to the blink attack.
This game is more of a note on scouting than anything. Since Dear did go for a Twilight Council it might be confusing for some to figure out if blink or DTs are coming. The tip is that if you scout the same gas timing as Dear had and a nexus halfway done at 6:30, it's a DT build.
Notice the good bunker placement used by both Maru and Bbyong. All potential attack paths Protoss can take are blocked.
Just like in the previous game, the Protoss player is making his followup decision at around the 9 minute mark.
Terrans need to be be less cheap with scans, and more careful withh their reapers. Once the mothership core and stalker are both out you have to respect your opponent and assume that he will block all attempts to scout with the reaper.
In this case I don't like how Bbyong decides to go 5 rax before expand. Here he can't possibly expect to do damage this early so he might as well develop his economy.
Terrans need to be more diligent with scouting the map for proxy pylons and probes.
Artosis mentions that you can just fake out this attack and start a third nexus behind it. The answer is to SCOUT, and SCAN. If your 9 minute scan sees no gates, and no gas at the natural, Protoss probably took a third base.
GuMiho's answer to Classic's blink play was to go for a quick single medivac drop and incite a sort of base race.
At home GuMiho defended with tanks. This worked because Classic chose not to go all-in with his blink stalkers and only meant to use them as pressure. Since there weren't enough stalkers to quickly dispose of the tank by blinking directly on top of it, GuMiho held on with repairs and built up a bio force large enough to eventually win with overwhelming numbers.
Maps:
The green circles are where Terran should think about defending with bunkers, mines, or positioning of his bio force. Red circles are where the Protoss army tends to fall back to. Green arrows defence paths, and red arrows are attack paths. Thin red arrows are rare but possible attack paths.
This map is just bad for blink, the travel distance to defend is significantly shorter than to attack and Protoss can only attack two points. It's far too easy for Terran to position properly to defend an attack.
This map has the widest open natural of all of them, this gives Protoss a lot of different angles to attack from and is difficult for Terran to defend.
They MIGHT walk past the leftmost spot to defend and mothership core recall once they’ve done some damage, but it’s not likely.
There are two main “launching points” for a protoss attack, and that is the ramp to the natural and the high cliff to the main.
The main launching point for Protoss attack is outside of Terran's natural.
The attacking distance between the high ground and low ground is longer than the defending distance, however the ramp is vulnerable to time warp.
Protoss CAN go all the way to the third and blink up the high cliff, but you do not need to worry because that distance is just absurd to walk and it is easy to defend in time.
This map is pretty bad for blink, the main launching point for attack is down the ramp at the natural and can only really attack two very close points at the natural.
In general, the stalkers will bounce back and forth from outside the natural to the third base.
There are a lot of points on the high ground that can be taken advantage of by stalkers, so bunkers should probably be positioned closer to the command center to reduce the area you are trying to defend. [*Tthe ramp is less vulnerable to time warp on this map because there is a lot of "Terran owned" space to cross for the mothership to get into position to cast it.
The main base is absolutely huge, the stalkers have a lot of opportunity to kite around because of it, because of that chasing is almost always a bad idea.
The natural only has one path into it, so bunkers with repair should be enough to hold that.
The ramp is very vulnerable to time warp as it is easy for Protoss to move their mothership core into position uncontested.
The two main attack paths are obvious, and the third one around the back has a ludicrously long walking distance and is very easy to prepare for.
The attacking and defending distances from the natural to the nearby high ground are identical, so bunkers are needed because of how difficult it is so keep up with the speediness of the stalker army.
Mod note: this thread will be moderated -extremely- severely. Balance whinning will be bannable, no effort posts will be warned.
Additionally, you should know what you are talking about before posting. Do not recommend incorrect/bad things like one base siege expand for instance.
I'll start off a bit of discussion with my perspective on the way maps impact Blink.
While some maps are stupid good for blink, I'm not sure what kind of architecture we want from new maps. While Yeonsu and Daedelus are very good for blink I really dont want to see blink leave the metagame entirely due to making blink literally impossible on all maps. Its nice to know that Protoss has an option of aggressive play that isn't Stargate based for example - from the perspective of a protoss player anyway.
I think what is really hard for a Terran from what I've seen/discussed with others isn't just the fact that Blink is strong, its that its difficult to tell if its a 2 base all in or a pressure into expand build. I don't do blink a lot myself but there must be a difference and Thaniri points out the gas count in the natural and scout timings. Knowing how to react to an all in variant can lead to a stronger defence without overcommitting which makes an expansion to a third follow up stronger. Hopefully someone has some good insight into the difference between an all in and a pressure into third as well as how to transition beyond the initial defense as a Terran into the mid game.
This is looking excellent. As a Terran player who hates playing against Blink and figuring out whether or not it's an all-in, I'm very interested to see what comes from this discussion.
I would like to point out that on Polar Night, it is possible for Protoss to go to the third base location and blink up into the main. Although the walking distance is relatively long, I thought you might want to include it just for thoroughness.
Edit: Would also be interested in seeing discussion about when you should or should not pull SCVs to help defend. I have seen some good defense where an SCV pull seemed necessary to tank for a small bio force that would have died without the help.
The problem isn't the blink all in for terrans now as much as the "2 base blink contain."
If you're overly defensive and can't move out, a Protoss can go up to 3 bases and chrono out storm in ~ 60 seconds, transitioning very smoothly into a strong macro game.
In addition, on some maps it is almost impossible to hold onto two bases vs 2 base blink, such as on Daedalus Point, where travel distance between nat and main is relatively long, meaning we put ourselves even further behind.
So I guess the key problems right now for us as Terran is:
a) Keep up economically (minimum 2 mining bases vs his 2 or 3 mining bases)
b) Don't die to the blink pressure
Those two do not seem to be simultaneously viable on certain maps at the moment.
Perhaps the builds we use are to fault. Right now the two most common builds in TvP (for standard macro play) is either 3 rax, popularized by Polt, or 1-1-1, which has the capacity to harass.
Unfortunately, neither really solve the problem.
Polt's way of dealing with 2 base blink was sending a small bio force to attack the enemy nat while there was no Stalkers or MSC at home. Really, really smart, but seeing CJ Entus's herO intercept the force with stalkers and simply attack to win shows that it's not a foolproof strategy.
If you sit at home and defend with 3 rax, we all know what happens; you will be wittled down; your bio count will shrink from 30 to 20 to 10, until when medivacs finally come out, he can be on a third base with storm almost finished, and you will not even have a third started. Obviously, this is not viable.
If we look at 1-1-1, it is similarly at an impasse. 1-1-1 attacks generally involve a fast medivac and either widow mines or hellions. Gimmick attacks designed to reduce enemy worker count, not end the game. To defend, you will have no marauders most likely, and no way to easily transition. Stim is late, marauders are late, upgrades are late, and you more often than not will have to make a tank to survive, and tanks are such gas hogs that they will hurt every transition you make.
The first promising new build I saw was qxc's 2-1-1 Build. Although he lost with the build, the concept is very interesting: qxc gets 2 rax for fast stim and marauder incorporation, but also gets a fast Factory so he can defend with mines. In the event of blink all in, I'd imagine you just hot swap the barracks and the factory to make more mines than marines, and just push out once you have medivacs. And with the build, you can get medivacs out on time (10 min) for standard pressure against protoss anyways.
Additionally, with the new mines, you have a decent transition against templar players if they go for templars (and almost all 2 base blink transitions into templars).
I am glad someone made a thread to discuss this all in seriously. I've been a GM protoss for several seasons, in both WoL and Hots. One thing I noticed the OP didn't mention is a sensor tower. This isn't needed on all maps but on a map like yeonsu I would heavily recommend it. The reason is that if toss draws you to the blink spot by your main CC (below the 1 on the map the OP drew). They can then run to your main and normally kill off all your bunkers with the help of a FF on your ramp.
Also if you find yourself always being incorrectly positioned against this blink all in I would just start making a sensor tower on maps where you don't need it until you get better at stopping the all in.
On March 22 2014 03:44 Shalashaka wrote: The problem isn't the blink all in for terrans now as much as the "2 base blink contain."
If you're overly defensive and can't move out, a Protoss can go up to 3 bases and chrono out storm in ~ 60 seconds, transitioning very smoothly into a strong macro game.
I don't like these kinds of statements, simply because they are vague and unspecific. In addition, you're exaggerating the ability of Protoss to transition out of 2-base Blink pressure. It sounds like you're saying that they can drop a Nexus, a Templar Archives, and chronoboost out storm in sixty seconds, while still threatening to kill you. I may not know Protoss builds, but it just seems implausible that they can invest so much into tech and economy while still being able to kill you, especially if you are playing defensive.
As I see it, the core issue you're getting at is: Against a 2-base pressure build, how does Terran walk the fine line between being too greedy and being too defensive (both of which are punished by the build)?
The OP suggests that it begins with first identifying you're facing a pressure (as opposed to all-in) build, then identifying when the Protoss is beginning their transition out of the pressure. You suggest that we could modify our current build orders to better defend the pressure and put us in a stronger position after the pressure is over. For both of these approaches, we need to analyze and dissect the way Protoss is playing, rather than make blanket statements about what it seems that Protoss is able to do.
In addition, you're exaggerating the ability of Protoss to transition out of 2-base Blink pressure. Suddenly they can drop a Nexus, a Templar Archives, and chronoboost out storm in sixty seconds, while still threatening to kill you?
I'll put it this way; once a Terran scouts blink certain precautions must be taken: we have to get bunkers, regardless of build, we can't start a 3rd CC, regardless of build, once the Stalkers into blink range we have to pull scvs to repair the bunkers, and leave them there, else we could be overwhelmed.
At any point, Protoss can skip a production cycle of Stalkers and throw down a Nexus. Skip another and throw down a Templar Archives.
The Terran simply has no way of knowing when the pressure is still continuing or when Protoss is merely posturing and going full greed behind the attack.
That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying the tech magically appears, but I'm saying the reactions Terran has to do, regardless whether it's just 6 stalkers or 20 will put them behind any Protoss who plays greedy.
What other option does the Terran have? Not build the bunkers? Not pre pull scvs to defend? Start the third CC early? The protoss can very easily just keep producing stalkers and punish the weakness in the Terran's defense.
If Terran defends perfectly, then Protoss simply expands and continues transitioning vs a Terran who's no where near a 3rd base, and more often than not has surrendered their natural.
In addition, you're exaggerating the ability of Protoss to transition out of 2-base Blink pressure. Suddenly they can drop a Nexus, a Templar Archives, and chronoboost out storm in sixty seconds, while still threatening to kill you?
I'll put it this way; once a Terran scouts blink certain precautions must be taken: we have to get bunkers, regardless of build, we can't start a 3rd CC, regardless of build, once the Stalkers into blink range we have to pull scvs to repair the bunkers, and leave them there, else we could be overwhelmed.
At any point, Protoss can skip a production cycle of Stalkers and throw down a Nexus. Skip another and throw down a Templar Archives.
The Terran simply has no way of knowing when the pressure is still continuing or when Protoss is merely posturing and going full greed behind the attack.
That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying the tech magically appears, but I'm saying the reactions Terran has to do, regardless whether it's just 6 stalkers or 20 will put them behind any Protoss who plays greedy.
What other option does the Terran have? Not build the bunkers? Not pre pull scvs to defend? Start the third CC early? The protoss can very easily just keep producing stalkers and punish the weakness in the Terran's defense.
If Terran defends perfectly, then Protoss simply expands and continues transitioning vs a Terran who's no where near a 3rd base, and more often than not has surrendered their natural.
Well to be fair if protoss has 6 stalkers and then skips two waves of stalkers that means they have only 6 stalkers. To get a nexus down and then a templar archives right away they need to have the natural gasses, and they need to be skipping upgrades. So in the midgame their army is going to be quite small (6 stalkers) and their map presence fairly weak.
If they make 12 or 18 stalkers then all their tech is severly delayed and its not really a pressure build anymore, its a fairly dedicated attack. So these two things can I am sure be scouted for in some way. Not necessarily through a direct scout but through reads for example.
Learning the Protoss natural gas timings can help in these scenarios as well. Since we cant get templar if we are on 2 gas, we need at least 4. And defending against 18 stalkers is VERY different than defending against 6 stalker pressure into expansion.
That's the distinction we are trying to make here. Instead of jumping to conclusions of I NEED ALL THIS STUFF TO DEFEND - you can instead look at I need this bare minimum to defend X and if they are doing Y I can adjust. Rather than just defending Y and hoping they don't do X. If they are playing greedy behind a pressure, the pressure likely won't kill you. If they are super ahead after the pressure, you over reacted to it and played too safely. Its a fine line and its an important part of StarCraft.
Since protoss players leave pretty much nothing at home while doing a build like this if it's an all in, having a reaper out on the map should be really helpful. That means you can scout and see if they're taking a third or teching to templar and getting upgrades behind the actual push. I suppose it's easier to do that if you do a reactor into 2 reaper opening, so that you can use your "spare" reaper to do the job later.
An scv scout can probably accomplish the same thing though if there are no units at home for the protoss. But if they're indeed not going all in, there may be units at home, so that's also a sign.
On March 22 2014 04:45 vhapter wrote: Since protoss players leave pretty much nothing at home while doing a build like this if it's an all in, having a reaper out on the map should be really helpful. That means you can scout and see if they're taking a third or teching to templar and getting upgrades behind the actual push. I suppose it's easier to do that if you do a reactor into 2 reaper opening, so that you can use your "spare" reaper to do the job later.
Unfortunately, you usually have to sacrifice the Reaper to identify that it's two base blink, as scanning is unreliable on maps with very big mains, such as D point or Heavy Rain.
So in your point of view, do you think it's more important to keep the Reaper alive at the 8 min mark to determine whether it's safe to break out or not, vs determining whether it's blink or not to begin with?
On March 22 2014 04:45 vhapter wrote: Since protoss players leave pretty much nothing at home while doing a build like this if it's an all in, having a reaper out on the map should be really helpful. That means you can scout and see if they're taking a third or teching to templar and getting upgrades behind the actual push. I suppose it's easier to do that if you do a reactor into 2 reaper opening, so that you can use your "spare" reaper to do the job later.
Unfortunately, you usually have to sacrifice the Reaper to identify that it's two base blink, as scanning is unreliable on maps with very big mains, such as D point or Heavy Rain.
So in your point of view, do you think it's more important to keep the Reaper alive at the 8 min mark to determine whether it's safe to break out or not, vs determining whether it's blink or not to begin with?
And thats something I hope to figure out. Particular players like polt and maru are very good at holding blink in TvP and what is it about how they play that gives them a leg up? I mean Polt and Maru are two very different players but they both deal with blink relative to other terrans very well and pretty consistently. Maru has great unit control but polt doesn't (not anywhere near close Maru skill) but Polt does have very good game plan decision making and understanding. So how do they confirm the blink build and how do they check for a third base or transition?
Its something Terran players can learn from. Maybe there is a way to scout for the twilight that keeps the reaper alive with good control for a future poke at the third, or if you sneak an scv out on the map before stalkers take control of it and use the reaper and accept its death to try and find the tech path?
These are viable options worth exploring from the perspective of trying to understand the builds and how to react.
On March 22 2014 04:45 vhapter wrote: Since protoss players leave pretty much nothing at home while doing a build like this if it's an all in, having a reaper out on the map should be really helpful. That means you can scout and see if they're taking a third or teching to templar and getting upgrades behind the actual push. I suppose it's easier to do that if you do a reactor into 2 reaper opening, so that you can use your "spare" reaper to do the job later.
Unfortunately, you usually have to sacrifice the Reaper to identify that it's two base blink, as scanning is unreliable on maps with very big mains, such as D point or Heavy Rain.
So in your point of view, do you think it's more important to keep the Reaper alive at the 8 min mark to determine whether it's safe to break out or not, vs determining whether it's blink or not to begin with?
Of course not. It's easier to scout later to determine whether it's an all in if you have (a) another reaper out, (b) an scv out, or (c) your initial reaper survives. Sending a single scv to look for tech buildings at a key time or spotting a third behind the push should allow players to adapt more adequately.
In addition, you're exaggerating the ability of Protoss to transition out of 2-base Blink pressure. Suddenly they can drop a Nexus, a Templar Archives, and chronoboost out storm in sixty seconds, while still threatening to kill you?
I'll put it this way; once a Terran scouts blink certain precautions must be taken: we have to get bunkers, regardless of build, we can't start a 3rd CC, regardless of build, once the Stalkers into blink range we have to pull scvs to repair the bunkers, and leave them there, else we could be overwhelmed.
At any point, Protoss can skip a production cycle of Stalkers and throw down a Nexus. Skip another and throw down a Templar Archives.
The Terran simply has no way of knowing when the pressure is still continuing or when Protoss is merely posturing and going full greed behind the attack.
I believe the first thing to do, as the thread starter actively encourages, is to abandon the mindset that Terran has no way of identifying whether Protoss has stopped the attack and started to transition, or if he is going to continue the attack.
You're correct in saying that once Terran sees the Protoss is going Blink, he has to take precautions in case it's an all in. However, I have to question your assertion that the Protoss can transition at any time. Can Protoss actually transition anytime they want? If not, when is the usual time to start cutting army production, and how many Stalkers must be sacrificed to transition? If yes, what stops Terran from transitioning themselves, assuming they can scout the transition from Protoss?
Because if Protoss cuts stalker production to transition, the army will naturally become weaker, in turn taking pressure off the Terran. It then becomes the Terran's job to sniff out that Protoss is transitioning, and then begin his own transition. The OP suggests timings and methods in which to do so.
On March 22 2014 04:20 Shalashaka wrote: That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying the tech magically appears, but I'm saying the reactions Terran has to do, regardless whether it's just 6 stalkers or 20 will put them behind any Protoss who plays greedy.
You assume that the Terran response to a Blink pressure build will always put the Terran behind (i.e. you overreacted on defense). But, again, you're not being specific. If you're going to make that assertion, it would be helpful if you could concretely define when you've played so defensively that you're behind. That's not easy, but that's one of the things we're actively discussing in this thread.
And your response as Terran will change depending on what Protoss is doing. You wouldn't play the same way against someone you knew was going to pressure with 6 stalkers while going full greed behind it, as you would against someone who is warping in 20 stalkers before transitioning. In both cases, what constitutes an under/over-reaction (and, of course, a correct reaction) will be different. It depends on Protoss' commitment.
So this ultimately becomes a question of: When do we know that Protoss has stopped committing to their pressure? That's one thing the OP is trying to find out with this thread.
So this ultimately becomes a question of: When do we know that Protoss has stopped committing to their pressure? That's one thing the OP is trying to find out with this thread.
The most obvious one (but difficult to check without a Reaper) is a 3rd Nexus coming down.
After that, counting Stalkers. If the count isn't getting any bigger (blink stalkers almost never split up) then start a 3rd CC maybe?
After that, what's toss's transitions? Some can use the Blink Stalkers to snipe turrets and follow up with a DT drop. Others can go Oracle, some can go Collo, others will do Templar. Identifying all of those without wasting too many scans is also key.
And finally, we have to remember Terran will almost have certainly taken some damage from the pressure, especially on a map like Heavy Rain or Daedalus Point, where blinking into the main, then blinking out and pressuring the nat with a timewarp on the ramp is very very dangerous for the Terran player.
Trying to use a lot of scans to check for all the above when you're already economically behind is less than ideal.
I think way too much of the above hinges on just not losing the Reaper, so maybe be extremely conservative with it? That's all I can come with atm.
So this ultimately becomes a question of: When do we know that Protoss has stopped committing to their pressure? That's one thing the OP is trying to find out with this thread.
The most obvious one (but difficult to check without a Reaper) is a 3rd Nexus coming down.
After that, counting Stalkers. If the count isn't getting any bigger (blink stalkers almost never split up) then start a 3rd CC maybe?
After that, what's toss's transitions? Some can use the Blink Stalkers to snipe turrets and follow up with a DT drop. Others can go Oracle, some can go Collo, others will do Templar. Identifying all of those without wasting too many scans is also key.
And finally, we have to remember Terran will almost have certainly taken some damage from the pressure, especially on a map like Heavy Rain or Daedalus Point, where blinking into the main, then blinking out and pressuring the nat with a timewarp on the ramp is very very dangerous for the Terran player.
Trying to use a lot of scans to check for all the above when you're already economically behind is less than ideal.
I think way too much of the above hinges on just not losing the Reaper, so maybe be extremely conservative with it? That's all I can come with atm.
It might not seem like a lot but its good. Try it on ladder and see if it helps you, also try to incorporate the bunker positioning from OP stolen primarily from Maru.
On March 22 2014 02:59 ZeromuS wrote: I'll start off a bit of discussion with my perspective on the way maps impact Blink.
While some maps are stupid good for blink, I'm not sure what kind of architecture we want from new maps. While Yeonsu and Daedelus are very good for blink I really dont want to see blink leave the metagame entirely due to making blink literally impossible on all maps. Its nice to know that Protoss has an option of aggressive play that isn't Stargate based for example - from the perspective of a protoss player anyway.
I think what is really hard for a Terran from what I've seen/discussed with others isn't just the fact that Blink is strong, its that its difficult to tell if its a 2 base all in or a pressure into expand build. I don't do blink a lot myself but there must be a difference and Thaniri points out the gas count in the natural and scout timings. Knowing how to react to an all in variant can lead to a stronger defence without overcommitting which makes an expansion to a third follow up stronger. Hopefully someone has some good insight into the difference between an all in and a pressure into third as well as how to transition beyond the initial defense as a Terran into the mid game.
Yeah, this is really more the problem than actually holding the build off. Most Terrans I know / practice with can hold a comitted 2 base blink all-in with relatively high consistency, it's just figuring out exactly what variation is coming and how much you have to commit to defense that throws us off.
There really isn't much of a difference from what I've seen between pressure and comitted attack (in fact it usually seems like they can plan to commit to attack, see the Terran has adequate defense and just not warp in and transition from there), and even if they commit to attack (i.e. more than 1 round of warp ins) they don't need to do an incredible amount of damage to transition out (delay stim or medivacs and kill some army and/or scvs is usually enough to safely take a third). They can also transition into either HT or Collosi from Blink Stalkers and either works really well, so it's important you scout out what tech they're going for asap.
I've had the most success vs blink all-ins when I keep a reaper alive after confirming blink after expand and being able to poke in and see if Protoss is adding tech / a third, but it seems really unreliable to keep the reaper alive after blink is out (a blink stalker can chase down / kill a reaper, 2 is pretty much garunteed to). You can't really afford to be scanning constantly vs Protoss either, you can barely afford 3 rax production + tech as it is, a counter medivac drop can be okay but its hits pretty late (typically after you know whether or not Protoss is transitioning) and takes away vital defensive units.
Killing the stalkers seems really important too, if you kill your opponent's stalkers and they try to transition out you can usually pick them apart with drops (and often kill / deny the third) while securing your own economy. I don't know of any way to consistently do this though, really just hoping to catch them out of position / hoping they overcommit.
I've been experimenting a bit recently with a faster 3rd CC vs 2 base blink (in an attempt to mitigate SCV losses with MULES and recover more quickly vs a fast tranition), but I haven't figured out a good way to do it without cutting too much into tech or defense. If you do have 3CC vs this build though, I've come back from some pretty big deficits in worker count and been fine once I stabilized because the SCV's really improved my army retention and the triple MULEs + CC's meant I could recover my economy fairly quickly. Sometimes I just die outright to an early / aggressive commital though.
From personal experience (and watching games like Polt vs Classic G1 from IEM Cologne, Jjakji vs sOs from IEM Katowice ect) opening 1/1/1 vs a 2 base blink is only defendable on Habitation or Polar Night, all other maps it's too easy for Protoss to get around the immobility of tanks. Widow Mines typically aren't worth it when opening 1/1/1 because your bio count is going to be a lot lower, so even if you kill one Stalker and soften up the rest the Stalkers will still be present in enough force to kill your remaining bio whereas Tanks will constantly rain down heavy damage (forcing the Stalkers to commit to rush in or retreat), and Tanks are better at zoning them out because of the greater range as well. OFC if you've already made widow mines placing them ~6 range away from the cliff is ideal and moving them after every blink in so that you can pick off / soften stalkers consistently.
I personally can't get it to work, but Polt's ~15 supply counterattack seems to be really strong vs this build too as long as you can avoid the blink stalkers with it, since Protoss leaves too little back at home to defend with just one warp in (and by the time they get a second you've already done enough damage).
Also a little trick on Heavy Rain, build your production in the corner of the map between you expansions, Protoss wont be able to pick off add-ons making it really difficult for them to delay stim / medivacs.
So this ultimately becomes a question of: When do we know that Protoss has stopped committing to their pressure? That's one thing the OP is trying to find out with this thread.
The most obvious one (but difficult to check without a Reaper) is a 3rd Nexus coming down.
After that, counting Stalkers. If the count isn't getting any bigger (blink stalkers almost never split up) then start a 3rd CC maybe?
After that, what's toss's transitions? Some can use the Blink Stalkers to snipe turrets and follow up with a DT drop. Others can go Oracle, some can go Collo, others will do Templar. Identifying all of those without wasting too many scans is also key.
And finally, we have to remember Terran will almost have certainly taken some damage from the pressure, especially on a map like Heavy Rain or Daedalus Point, where blinking into the main, then blinking out and pressuring the nat with a timewarp on the ramp is very very dangerous for the Terran player.
Trying to use a lot of scans to check for all the above when you're already economically behind is less than ideal.
I think way too much of the above hinges on just not losing the Reaper, so maybe be extremely conservative with it? That's all I can come with atm.
I think what you've gone into is a little besides the point. What you're describing is identifying specifically what toss is transitioning into. You're asking, "What is Protoss transitioning into?" while what we want to know first, during the Blink pressure, is simply, "Is Protoss transitioning?"
But yes, once a transition is confirmed, it's definitely important to figure out exactly what it will be (Macro with Colo/Templar or weird cheese like oracles and DTs).
EPT
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