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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
I could counter and say that if Dimaga did the proper thing which is sending 3 earlier drones and blocked the supply depot from going down then MKP would have no chance. 6 Pool wins vs CC first on the low ground anything else if the Terran plays it well then 6 Pool is a loss. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 04 2013 03:26 Ephemera wrote: We can sit here theorycrafting forever, I would agree 6 pool is a "bad" build against Terran, but I disagree about it losing to CC first on the low ground. I could counter and say that if Dimaga did the proper thing which is sending 3 earlier drones and blocked the supply depot from going down then MKP would have no chance. 6 Pool wins vs CC first on the low ground anything else if the Terran plays it well then 6 Pool is a loss. Scout sees the 3 drones, cancels the low ground CC and starts a second rax/depot at the wall. I've never dropped a game to a 6 pool with cc first on low ground, though 60-70 minerals lost from an early scout really makes no difference at my level anyways. | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
Anyway the more crucial point is later pools into macro. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
For example I know that on maps like Bel'shir Vestige if I go 11 rax 11 gas reaper FE I can defend all kinds of early pools incredibly easily. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 04 2013 04:41 Ephemera wrote: Watch the replays in the first post, you don't send the three drones all together. You send one ahead of the others to harass then pull all 3 up when the lings get closer. Anyway the more crucial point is later pools into macro. The timing of the harassing drone doesn't matter. It arrives way before the scouting SCV would normally cross paths with the 3 drones or the lings, which is about the time you start building the CC. | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
I just played a game vs a masters terran, a proof of concept build. This build was theory crafted, and has different adaptations depending on what I see. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4162544 I would love for a review of the build, roughly speaking if I saw rax first no gas then I would make a hatchery first then the pool keeping the one drone on gas then make a lair and rush swarmhosts, if I see gas use the 100 gas for speed. If I see CC first do what I did. It is still rough around the edges, but please comment on the concept and what you think I can do better. | ||
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hearters
Singapore224 Posts
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
For enyone saying opponent has to make mistake to lose, even if that was the case low masters for sure will make those mistakes. I dont know if all in early pool will get you master, but probely you can get in with it if you just do it well enough. Macro for sure will get you to master if your good enough. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On October 04 2013 01:37 Ephemera wrote: @NoSoldier I showed pro player examples to prove the viability of early pools and the fact they're build order wins vs most greedy styles of play. You seem to overestimate how strong a player in masters is/are for I have already beaten some with early pools even against "safe" builds. But your point is true players can hold 6/7 pool much more commonly than back when FametoFlames/ActionJesus were 6 Pooling around in GM. Hence why I change the goalposts to pools before overlord, if I asked anyone here if a 12 pool was a all in build I doubt many would say yes. @BuiBui, the opener you showed is pretty much the same as the STLife one except different hatch timings, I've used it and has given me a good position into the mid game. I'm around two weeks in to doing this challenge now, I'm facing mid diamond players on EU and I'm maintaining a 60% win rate so I would say that shows some promise for the early pool. I think I've come up with a good adaptive build that uses an early pool against Zerg vs Terran it's a 100% win rate vs CC first and is "macro" should I see a rax first. I will post the build if requested/after I've played it enough and got into masters. (I want to make sure it's a solid build) The common consensus is to do as late as possible pool like the 11 Pool or 12 Pool put pressure on and macro out of it. Now I would agree that this is perhaps best against Terran due to the defensive nature of Terran, but I feel against Protoss any all in is more likely to succeed. ZvZ comes down to pool timings who gets speed and baneling control. I'm still looking for people of other races to tell me what they do as a response to seeing an early pool. Thanks. The great thing about the early build is it is great vs cheese. There are only a few builds that really hard counter 9/10 pool zvt- reaper expand ---> hellion, You lose map control, they gain it back and are able to cut corners again. where with cc first. they can not mine their natural until they get helions out. gate core expand when protoss puts their 2nd pylon in the main base instead on the low ground for a faster wall off (vs speedling all ins) When they put the pylon on the low ground, you can kill it and then the protoss is in a bad way. If they play safe and keep it the main, you will be behind. vs 13 13 - 15 15 speedling expands you will just die sadly. However vs any hatch first, you can either kill them if they micro poorly. or stay even. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
vs terran, I think a 6 pool is your best bet. Life was doing 10 pools vT for a while but vs anything that isn't a cc first you're screwed. You MIGHT be able to make something happen with a 6 pool vs rax first, if you can micro your drones well. I'll check out the proof of concept build when I've got comp access, sounds intriguing. | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
Currently I'm working on some good all in timings with early pools. When I get into masters as I said earlier, I will post a guide on all the early pools styles and what to look for/do. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
As people have stated, you are moreso relying on builds on your opponents or the poor reactions and controll. I can assure you that vs a decent reaction from all 3 races : You are behind! If there was a decent way to macro out of it, it would be the standard build. Protoss If I forge expand, and you do anything before 8 pool vs FFE, i can build a pylon in my main and cannon, I will end up ahead - especially with the MSC expanding has become much safer. A pool later than that will just be denied with scouting and a wall off before nexus putting you even further behind. Vs gateway expand its even worse. I dont even need to change my build, my zealot will come out to deflect damage from your zerglings and its pretty much GG from there. Terran There is no point in anything between a 7-14 pool, either you win with a 6 pool or you play a normal game. Zerg A decent reaction will keep you ahead, even 15 hatches do OK against the 6 pool. Anything later than that faces a closer arrival of his zerglings, and therefore will be worse. So all in all . Will you win games - sure thing Will you be able to capitalize consistently on an early pool to get yourself ahead for the mid and lategame - no! | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
Against people I think will gate expo, I do a 10 pool with 2 banes included which wins me most games considering I drone pull as well. Alas I don't have a replay against the gate expo but I do have what I do against FFE. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4176433 Against Terran I could show the example of Dimaga the founder of the super early baneling bust, also the theory build I posted earlier works vs CC first and has adaptations, against anything but CC first I will be behind slightly but not out of the game. (STLife has shown you can win from a 10 pool macro against top tiered Terrans who do the perfect counter) Zerg there's so many builds that work, 10 pool macro is a standard build in the meta so in ZvZ where I have a 70% win rate early pooling is fine and macroable. The goal is to win really, I'm not looking to get ahead into the mid/lategame with a 6 Pool, with a 10/11/12 pool then I'm looking to macro (unless I drone pull) | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On October 04 2013 04:44 Whatson wrote: I think we're all in agreement that if Terran doesn't go CC first and you early pool, you're super far behind For example I know that on maps like Bel'shir Vestige if I go 11 rax 11 gas reaper FE I can defend all kinds of early pools incredibly easily. I thought there was a way for the terran to make it perfectly safe to go CC first even against Pool 6 ? I.e. a specific CC and barrack placement in the entrance to force less zerglings to attack the CC or the rax in order for them to be finished building and then to be repaired ? | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
It also depends on pure luck with where the SCV constructing the CC or Rax go, if they end up on the side with the lings and they haven't got SCV's ready and waiting to construct then the lings can get in. Also drone drilling can catch people off guard. 6 Pool vs CC on high ground is 50/50. | ||
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monomo
Germany150 Posts
On October 06 2013 20:11 Ephemera wrote: Welkor, I just played a game which disproves your "anything later than a 8 pool" the protoss will have a full wall theory. Against people I think will gate expo, I do a 10 pool with 2 banes included which wins me most games considering I drone pull as well. Alas I don't have a replay against the gate expo but I do have what I do against FFE. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4176433 Against Terran I could show the example of Dimaga the founder of the super early baneling bust, also the theory build I posted earlier works vs CC first and has adaptations, against anything but CC first I will be behind slightly but not out of the game. (STLife has shown you can win from a 10 pool macro against top tiered Terrans who do the perfect counter) Zerg there's so many builds that work, 10 pool macro is a standard build in the meta so in ZvZ where I have a 70% win rate early pooling is fine and macroable. The goal is to win really, I'm not looking to get ahead into the mid/lategame with a 6 Pool, with a 10/11/12 pool then I'm looking to macro (unless I drone pull) I stopped reading after "drope pull", because really this thread wasn't made to discuss the overall possibilty to win with an early pool, but to discuss the possibility of transitioning out of it while retaining some sort of meaningful advantage (map control, maybe econ after killing workers, ?army size?) drone pulling makes it all in - Nobody disputes the fact that it can win games, but you cannot transition after drone pulling. | ||
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RFDaemoniac
United States544 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
On October 06 2013 20:11 Ephemera wrote: Welkor, I just played a game which disproves your "anything later than a 8 pool" the protoss will have a full wall theory. Against people I think will gate expo, I do a 10 pool with 2 banes included which wins me most games considering I drone pull as well. Alas I don't have a replay against the gate expo but I do have what I do against FFE. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4176433 Against Terran I could show the example of Dimaga the founder of the super early baneling bust, also the theory build I posted earlier works vs CC first and has adaptations, against anything but CC first I will be behind slightly but not out of the game. (STLife has shown you can win from a 10 pool macro against top tiered Terrans who do the perfect counter) Zerg there's so many builds that work, 10 pool macro is a standard build in the meta so in ZvZ where I have a 70% win rate early pooling is fine and macroable. The goal is to win really, I'm not looking to get ahead into the mid/lategame with a 6 Pool, with a 10/11/12 pool then I'm looking to macro (unless I drone pull) The guy you played tried to go for a nexus first, this is an opening that dies to any early pool. The normal opening is forge expand, with a scout on the forge or pylon. after he sees this, he uses the 400 minerals he has saved for the nexus, for a GW / Cannon / Pylon. This will give him a full wall off. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 06 2013 21:48 Ephemera wrote: CC on the high ground with proper micro should hold a 6 pool, but sometimes it doesn't, it depends on the map how they place the building and how many SCV they pull to repair and when. It also depends on pure luck with where the SCV constructing the CC or Rax go, if they end up on the side with the lings and they haven't got SCV's ready and waiting to construct then the lings can get in. Also drone drilling can catch people off guard. 6 Pool vs CC on high ground is 50/50. It's more like 5/95. The 5% being the very low odds that your building SCV's move towards the lings -every- single time. | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
The guy scouted on 9 and put down a 15 forge, there's a 10 second difference between if he went foge first or what he ended up doing. The cannon would've got 2 seconds of shooting which would not stop my attack in the slightest. Now lets assume he puts down 2 cannons in the mineral lines. I would've just gone for the pylon and I still would've had enough to kill all the probes/unpowered cannons. Monomo, first off I'm the OP so I made the thread so there's no point in telling me what this thread was made to discuss  Secondly there's some (not many in the slightest) pro game examples where a zerg has drone pulled and managed to transition but I'm being pedantic it's not intended to be transitioned from. rd, it's more likely 33% the SCV has a moving pattern that crosses through the danger zone at some point, now since 33% of the surface area of the CC is exposed to the lings I would assume that 33% is the percentage of times the SCV moves into the danger zone. Now this is easily countered by the fact that if they pull SCVs you can restart the building straight away. The goal is to win at the end of the day, so if you can drone pull and get a win there and then why wouldn't you? (Hence why TvP SCV pulls are so common) | ||
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