Early pools are what got me playing zerg, I watched players like Hyvaa and Life using early pools to outright win or dictate the pace of the game. It was exciting to watch and micro intense (the way the game should be)
But it feels early pools have fallen by the wayside, discarded for the next hyper greedy but "safe" build.
I have a deep and ingrained love of the early pool and I wish to learn the further intricacies of the early pool to see whether the collective mind of TL can help me achieve my early pooling goals.
I set myself the challenge recently to get into masters with only pools before overlord, I understand perfectly well that early pools are very "coinflippy" but I after watching some more Life replays I'm more convinced that this could be a viable way of playing.
He loses that game so perhaps not the best example, but he goes on to win the whole tournament with similar ling centric early pools/early agression.
I feel what Life showed in that example is that early pools don't always mean all in, but stop greedy builds and force mistakes/changes in other peoples play style.
Exhibit B; Hyvaa 6 Pool vs Terran
and
We all know and some of us love Hyvaa, he is the epitome of zerg cheese but the most "coinflippy" in playstyle.
Now there's plenty more variation in early pools rather than just 6,7,8 ect pooling, there's gas timings when you transition when you go all in what do you do depending on scouting even down to where you place your pool. What if you can combine the pressure and transition of Lifes playstyle and at the drop of a hat be able to go as all in as Hyvaa?
Here I would like to show Exhibit C Catz.
Catz is very well known for his distinct style of play mainly revolving around proxy hatcheries and other various shenanigans, Catz is forcing a response and setting the tone of the game, whilst allowing the option (should he see a false response) to go all in.
The dilemma for me is that my self imposed challenge requires me to do pools before overlord rather than the more economical style that Catz plays thus disallowing me the happy medium between all in and transitional play.
Another 6 pool but from Losira (Kangho)
As the casters pretty much state, it's a one build wonder if they don't go CC first it's gg, and if they respond well it's usually gg if they go CC first on the high ground.
So I will stop procrastinating and get to the meat of the discussion/my question.
Will it be viable for me to get to masters using pools before overlord exclusively? How would you play under these constraints? Go for more life transitional cheese or go for the more "coinflippy" Hyvaa style? Now this question goes out to the players of Terran and Protoss, how do you respond when you see an early pool? The more information I get upon this the better I can respond and the more likely I can exploit any flaws.
My end goal is to achieve masters and to have created a compendium of early pool builds and go very in-depth with the execution and provide a lot of replays.
maybe. I would guess though, that the lower on the ladder you go, the less likely you are to see cc first from terran. Also you're more likely to see reaper, which will destroy an early pool.
I feel what you are talking about. I kinda play protoss as a main race, but I often find myself zerging around. And the most success I get with zerg is with early pools that reacts correctly after the first few set of lings == whether to macro or ling more (or aim for certain timing push). It is so much nicer to be able to react on something concrete instead of blindly macroing and hoping you did not miss a pylon that warps shitloads of shit into your backyard before proper preparations. Hellions are pain without speedlings, so lings are nice early in the game. And disturbing the basic macro-oriented pace of both protoss and terran helps to adjust your play correctly anyway. Beating master players is reasonable with my poor skill level, so I believe your goal seems quite achievable even without Life-level skills Anyway, this being said, I would be happy to hear about good builds and reactions too.
An early pool dictates a lot of different thing, it dictates that you can't move out of your base for a set period of time (if you hold) because the unit count is higher for the early pooling player. It also dictates certain tech paths (in the case of the Catz hatch block) ie they have to get a siege tank to break out.
It also keeps them on watch because what's the best way to follow up an "all in" with another all in?
The early pooling player also dictates the proportional response (in the case of protoss) for If I keep building lings to a critical mass I can overrun a "secure" cannon in the mineral line.
My question was more looking for tips tricks and responses from other players, rather than someone telling me what I already know (in the case of a 6pool) that early pools are a coinflip.
While sending early lings against Protoss that opens with a forge at their natural might seem like a situation where you are ahead because they can't keep the lings out of the base, what I've found the smart ones do is make a cannon in the center of their main mineral line and they will use their probes to surround the cannon while it is constructing. I have found the best response is too use your first lings to get as many probe kills as possible before the cannon finishes. Then back off and while using your initial lings to clear outskirt buildings and dont forget make a drones after your initial lings and while you wait for the queen. Once your inject pops ull have seven larva to make 14 zerglings. Those 14 lings make 20 counting the initial 6 and you run those 20 lings into the Protoss main mineral line to kill it off. Players usually expect you to be using all your macro on drones to catch up. Even if the Protoss does a good job anticipating your attack and surrounds his cannon pre-emptively to protect it you can still back off and pick off any buildings he has tried to put up like his new forge for example. Anything not in the range of the cannon is fair game
Please for give my scrub league ignorance but, as a Terran player, wouldn't the Terran going 1rax FE be safer than a CC first build if the Zerg is going early pool? It seems you would have the rax down sooner and thus faster marines to fend of lings? Any insight is appreciated!
Uhmmmm. pools before overlord are really really tricky lol and it probably wont be worth it in the majority of the games to go for macro games. If you are planning to find a more macro style of early pools you may want to watch Reketan.
Reketan, a master league player, uses a lot of 11 overpools as a macro style of the early pools. It is very rarely he will go 15pool or 15 hatch, even on large maps. I honestly have no idea how he does it but he does it very well and wins a lot of games from it.
It used to be that the early queen from a fast pool could be used for a macro style, esp since the other player would have to react for an 8 pool timing and cut down on eco.
You can get into masters going 9-10 pool vs every race. assuming you know how to macro out of it. and be able to micro your lings and expand. For example: zvt vs cc/rax rax/cc first
queen 23ov queen 31-32ov 44ov 44 double gas 42third base 52 roach warren/ov 60 evo wall off double ov (make 4 roaches for map control, to allow droning of third vs helions) take 3-4 gas (third should be mostly saturated) get 1/1 macro hatch, 4th base, react.
Well at least you made me lol. I dont see that an early pool only way of playing will get you anywhere. Dont get me wrong, there used to be times, when you could get GM with a nice 6 or 7 pool, but people in higher leagues evolved making this significantly harder to pull off. I do believe though, that in a tournament setting having a good early pool to mix things up with and one or 2 other all ins that are really well planned helps you succeed much more than pure macrostyles alone, no matter how good they are. And why is this? Because people all in soooo much, thats why.
I don't feel like an early pool is bound to dictate anything. We aren't palying on steppes of war. (on 4 player maps 6-9 pooling is downright impossible)
On October 03 2013 22:13 monomo wrote: I don't feel like an early pool is bound to dictate anything. We aren't palying on steppes of war. (on 4 player maps 6-9 pooling is downright impossible)
dunno, but with ol and drone scout you can pretty much early pool on any 4 player map: OL to one base, drone to the other, lings rallied to the middle of the map. once you scout the opponent you direct the lings in the right way. that's how zergs killed legions of nexus first players on whirlwind...
@NoSoldier I showed pro player examples to prove the viability of early pools and the fact they're build order wins vs most greedy styles of play. You seem to overestimate how strong a player in masters is/are for I have already beaten some with early pools even against "safe" builds. But your point is true players can hold 6/7 pool much more commonly than back when FametoFlames/ActionJesus were 6 Pooling around in GM.
Hence why I change the goalposts to pools before overlord, if I asked anyone here if a 12 pool was a all in build I doubt many would say yes.
@BuiBui, the opener you showed is pretty much the same as the STLife one except different hatch timings, I've used it and has given me a good position into the mid game.
I'm around two weeks in to doing this challenge now, I'm facing mid diamond players on EU and I'm maintaining a 60% win rate so I would say that shows some promise for the early pool.
I think I've come up with a good adaptive build that uses an early pool against Zerg vs Terran it's a 100% win rate vs CC first and is "macro" should I see a rax first. I will post the build if requested/after I've played it enough and got into masters. (I want to make sure it's a solid build)
The common consensus is to do as late as possible pool like the 11 Pool or 12 Pool put pressure on and macro out of it. Now I would agree that this is perhaps best against Terran due to the defensive nature of Terran, but I feel against Protoss any all in is more likely to succeed.
ZvZ comes down to pool timings who gets speed and baneling control.
I'm still looking for people of other races to tell me what they do as a response to seeing an early pool.
There are safer ways to get to a position where you can win from than early pools. Ofc you beat masters with it, because they are retarded, but you wont downright end it with 6 pool and 1 minute later. You gain economic advantage through forcing repair/getting worker kills, but usually, unless you have an "BO win" you wont win downright with the 6 pool. Therefor early pools are not the general solution as possibly discussed in a brazillion posts before.
You seem rather hostile towards the early pool? I don't understand the stigma attached to cheese and all ins, they're an exciting variable to the game of starcraft. What would you rather watch/play 10 minutes of building things then perhaps another 10 minutes of drops and attacks.
Or attacks right from the start and continuing on?
The game should play as whoever can micro and macro at the same time the best wins, rather than who can macro up to a 200/200 deathball and position it well.
I agree there are safer ways to get to a position where you can win, but nothing is exciting to play/watch than an intense micro battle from the start with the person with the better micro gaining a lead for the mid game.
We're not discussing the 6 pool, I highlighted that out almost from the outset as a build order win possibility and only that, I'm looking for the build that makes both sides micro the best they can to decide who gets either an outright win or a good lead in the mid game.
I'm really looking for non zerg opinions on how they respond, so I can better formulate my builds for various reactions.
On October 04 2013 01:37 Ephemera wrote: @NoSoldier I showed pro player examples to prove the viability of early pools and the fact they're build order wins vs most greedy styles of play.
When you 6 pool you have no control over whether or not you win, only the ability to capitalize on an opponent who executes poorly. Even vs greedy styles of play.
Also, MKP holds two straight 6 pools with CC first on low ground, without scouting. First game Dimaga threw, though.
Why is everyone so hung up on the 6 pool? I'm back after watching the second replay when MKP holds, he held because Dimaga made some huge mistakes with his 6 Pool, firstly he walked his lings close enough to be seen by the SCV constructing the barracks, obviously a big mistake which allows MKP to start building a depot.
Secondly he doesn't do a very good job of allocating what is attacking what, the drones are attacking the depot losing that crucial DPS from the lings. If he had from the start allocated 3 lings to the building depot he would've broken through before the engi bay went down and even if the engi bay went down he would've had enough surface area on the barracks to out DPS its construction.
Dimaga made mistakes in that replay that was not a well played 6 Pool.
Also it's MKP he is playing, if anyone is to hold a 6 Pool with CC on the low ground it would be MKP.
On October 04 2013 02:54 Ephemera wrote: Why is everyone so hung up on the 6 pool? I'm back after watching the second replay when MKP holds, he held because Dimaga made some huge mistakes with his 6 Pool, firstly he walked his lings close enough to be seen by the SCV constructing the barracks, obviously a big mistake which allows MKP to start building a depot.
Secondly he doesn't do a very good job of allocating what is attacking what, the drones are attacking the depot losing that crucial DPS from the lings. If he had from the start allocated 3 lings to the building depot he would've broken through before the engi bay went down and even if the engi bay went down he would've had enough surface area on the barracks to out DPS its construction.
Dimaga made mistakes in that replay that was not a well played 6 Pool.
Also it's MKP he is playing, if anyone is to hold a 6 Pool with CC on the low ground it would be MKP.
And if MKP had sent a scout after depot instead of playing 100% in the dark, there'd be no chance in hell. 60~ minerals to prevent the occasional auto-loss is a pretty good trade.
We can sit here theorycrafting forever, I would agree 6 pool is a "bad" build against Terran, but I disagree about it losing to CC first on the low ground. I could counter and say that if Dimaga did the proper thing which is sending 3 earlier drones and blocked the supply depot from going down then MKP would have no chance.
6 Pool wins vs CC first on the low ground anything else if the Terran plays it well then 6 Pool is a loss.
On October 04 2013 03:26 Ephemera wrote: We can sit here theorycrafting forever, I would agree 6 pool is a "bad" build against Terran, but I disagree about it losing to CC first on the low ground. I could counter and say that if Dimaga did the proper thing which is sending 3 earlier drones and blocked the supply depot from going down then MKP would have no chance.
6 Pool wins vs CC first on the low ground anything else if the Terran plays it well then 6 Pool is a loss.
Scout sees the 3 drones, cancels the low ground CC and starts a second rax/depot at the wall. I've never dropped a game to a 6 pool with cc first on low ground, though 60-70 minerals lost from an early scout really makes no difference at my level anyways.
Watch the replays in the first post, you don't send the three drones all together. You send one ahead of the others to harass then pull all 3 up when the lings get closer.
Anyway the more crucial point is later pools into macro.
I think we're all in agreement that if Terran doesn't go CC first and you early pool, you're super far behind For example I know that on maps like Bel'shir Vestige if I go 11 rax 11 gas reaper FE I can defend all kinds of early pools incredibly easily.
On October 04 2013 04:41 Ephemera wrote: Watch the replays in the first post, you don't send the three drones all together. You send one ahead of the others to harass then pull all 3 up when the lings get closer.
Anyway the more crucial point is later pools into macro.
The timing of the harassing drone doesn't matter. It arrives way before the scouting SCV would normally cross paths with the 3 drones or the lings, which is about the time you start building the CC.
I would love for a review of the build, roughly speaking if I saw rax first no gas then I would make a hatchery first then the pool keeping the one drone on gas then make a lair and rush swarmhosts, if I see gas use the 100 gas for speed. If I see CC first do what I did.
It is still rough around the edges, but please comment on the concept and what you think I can do better.
People overestimate low master players. Just getting into master is not hard with almoust enything if you do it well enough. 10p variation against zerg is actualy lot of zergs go to build. 10p macro against terran has been shown by life to be winnable. early pool against toss if they go forge expand can be used as macro opening as well, not sure about gateway expands.
For enyone saying opponent has to make mistake to lose, even if that was the case low masters for sure will make those mistakes.
I dont know if all in early pool will get you master, but probely you can get in with it if you just do it well enough. Macro for sure will get you to master if your good enough.
On October 04 2013 01:37 Ephemera wrote: @NoSoldier I showed pro player examples to prove the viability of early pools and the fact they're build order wins vs most greedy styles of play. You seem to overestimate how strong a player in masters is/are for I have already beaten some with early pools even against "safe" builds. But your point is true players can hold 6/7 pool much more commonly than back when FametoFlames/ActionJesus were 6 Pooling around in GM.
Hence why I change the goalposts to pools before overlord, if I asked anyone here if a 12 pool was a all in build I doubt many would say yes.
@BuiBui, the opener you showed is pretty much the same as the STLife one except different hatch timings, I've used it and has given me a good position into the mid game.
I'm around two weeks in to doing this challenge now, I'm facing mid diamond players on EU and I'm maintaining a 60% win rate so I would say that shows some promise for the early pool.
I think I've come up with a good adaptive build that uses an early pool against Zerg vs Terran it's a 100% win rate vs CC first and is "macro" should I see a rax first. I will post the build if requested/after I've played it enough and got into masters. (I want to make sure it's a solid build)
The common consensus is to do as late as possible pool like the 11 Pool or 12 Pool put pressure on and macro out of it. Now I would agree that this is perhaps best against Terran due to the defensive nature of Terran, but I feel against Protoss any all in is more likely to succeed.
ZvZ comes down to pool timings who gets speed and baneling control.
I'm still looking for people of other races to tell me what they do as a response to seeing an early pool.
Thanks.
The great thing about the early build is it is great vs cheese.
There are only a few builds that really hard counter 9/10 pool zvt- reaper expand ---> hellion, You lose map control, they gain it back and are able to cut corners again. where with cc first. they can not mine their natural until they get helions out.
gate core expand when protoss puts their 2nd pylon in the main base instead on the low ground for a faster wall off (vs speedling all ins) When they put the pylon on the low ground, you can kill it and then the protoss is in a bad way. If they play safe and keep it the main, you will be behind.
vs 13 13 - 15 15 speedling expands you will just die sadly. However vs any hatch first, you can either kill them if they micro poorly. or stay even.
seems like, for zvp you'd need two different early pool builds vs ffe and gate expand. Vs gate expand, the only viable early pool I've seen is a big speedling all-in that doesn't get scouted. I saw moonglade do this relatively recently on whirlwind. vs ffe you have to get your lings in before the wall-off finishes or you're totally screwed, which puts you somewhere 6-10, depending on the map.
vs terran, I think a 6 pool is your best bet. Life was doing 10 pools vT for a while but vs anything that isn't a cc first you're screwed. You MIGHT be able to make something happen with a 6 pool vs rax first, if you can micro your drones well.
I'll check out the proof of concept build when I've got comp access, sounds intriguing.
I'm going to start adding in 2 Banes to my ZvP builds, I need to isolate the probes from the Zealots (Assuming Gate expo) so I can kill the Zealot and move onto the probes.
Currently I'm working on some good all in timings with early pools. When I get into masters as I said earlier, I will post a guide on all the early pools styles and what to look for/do.
As people have stated, you are moreso relying on builds on your opponents or the poor reactions and controll.
I can assure you that vs a decent reaction from all 3 races : You are behind! If there was a decent way to macro out of it, it would be the standard build.
Protoss If I forge expand, and you do anything before 8 pool vs FFE, i can build a pylon in my main and cannon, I will end up ahead - especially with the MSC expanding has become much safer. A pool later than that will just be denied with scouting and a wall off before nexus putting you even further behind.
Vs gateway expand its even worse. I dont even need to change my build, my zealot will come out to deflect damage from your zerglings and its pretty much GG from there.
Terran There is no point in anything between a 7-14 pool, either you win with a 6 pool or you play a normal game.
Zerg A decent reaction will keep you ahead, even 15 hatches do OK against the 6 pool. Anything later than that faces a closer arrival of his zerglings, and therefore will be worse.
So all in all .
Will you win games - sure thing Will you be able to capitalize consistently on an early pool to get yourself ahead for the mid and lategame - no!
Welkor, I just played a game which disproves your "anything later than a 8 pool" the protoss will have a full wall theory. Against people I think will gate expo, I do a 10 pool with 2 banes included which wins me most games considering I drone pull as well. Alas I don't have a replay against the gate expo but I do have what I do against FFE.
Against Terran I could show the example of Dimaga the founder of the super early baneling bust, also the theory build I posted earlier works vs CC first and has adaptations, against anything but CC first I will be behind slightly but not out of the game. (STLife has shown you can win from a 10 pool macro against top tiered Terrans who do the perfect counter)
Zerg there's so many builds that work, 10 pool macro is a standard build in the meta so in ZvZ where I have a 70% win rate early pooling is fine and macroable.
The goal is to win really, I'm not looking to get ahead into the mid/lategame with a 6 Pool, with a 10/11/12 pool then I'm looking to macro (unless I drone pull)
On October 04 2013 04:44 Whatson wrote: I think we're all in agreement that if Terran doesn't go CC first and you early pool, you're super far behind For example I know that on maps like Bel'shir Vestige if I go 11 rax 11 gas reaper FE I can defend all kinds of early pools incredibly easily.
I thought there was a way for the terran to make it perfectly safe to go CC first even against Pool 6 ? I.e. a specific CC and barrack placement in the entrance to force less zerglings to attack the CC or the rax in order for them to be finished building and then to be repaired ?
CC on the high ground with proper micro should hold a 6 pool, but sometimes it doesn't, it depends on the map how they place the building and how many SCV they pull to repair and when.
It also depends on pure luck with where the SCV constructing the CC or Rax go, if they end up on the side with the lings and they haven't got SCV's ready and waiting to construct then the lings can get in.
On October 06 2013 20:11 Ephemera wrote: Welkor, I just played a game which disproves your "anything later than a 8 pool" the protoss will have a full wall theory. Against people I think will gate expo, I do a 10 pool with 2 banes included which wins me most games considering I drone pull as well. Alas I don't have a replay against the gate expo but I do have what I do against FFE.
Against Terran I could show the example of Dimaga the founder of the super early baneling bust, also the theory build I posted earlier works vs CC first and has adaptations, against anything but CC first I will be behind slightly but not out of the game. (STLife has shown you can win from a 10 pool macro against top tiered Terrans who do the perfect counter)
Zerg there's so many builds that work, 10 pool macro is a standard build in the meta so in ZvZ where I have a 70% win rate early pooling is fine and macroable.
The goal is to win really, I'm not looking to get ahead into the mid/lategame with a 6 Pool, with a 10/11/12 pool then I'm looking to macro (unless I drone pull)
I stopped reading after "drope pull", because really this thread wasn't made to discuss the overall possibilty to win with an early pool, but to discuss the possibility of transitioning out of it while retaining some sort of meaningful advantage (map control, maybe econ after killing workers, ?army size?)
drone pulling makes it all in - Nobody disputes the fact that it can win games, but you cannot transition after drone pulling.
If you don't drone pull until after you scout that they went CC first then it's a totally viable way to play. The point of opening with an early pool is to enable you to punish greedy play, and to react appropriately and dominantly to other forms of play. Of course you can't transition after punishing a CC first...
On October 06 2013 20:11 Ephemera wrote: Welkor, I just played a game which disproves your "anything later than a 8 pool" the protoss will have a full wall theory. Against people I think will gate expo, I do a 10 pool with 2 banes included which wins me most games considering I drone pull as well. Alas I don't have a replay against the gate expo but I do have what I do against FFE.
Against Terran I could show the example of Dimaga the founder of the super early baneling bust, also the theory build I posted earlier works vs CC first and has adaptations, against anything but CC first I will be behind slightly but not out of the game. (STLife has shown you can win from a 10 pool macro against top tiered Terrans who do the perfect counter)
Zerg there's so many builds that work, 10 pool macro is a standard build in the meta so in ZvZ where I have a 70% win rate early pooling is fine and macroable.
The goal is to win really, I'm not looking to get ahead into the mid/lategame with a 6 Pool, with a 10/11/12 pool then I'm looking to macro (unless I drone pull)
The guy you played tried to go for a nexus first, this is an opening that dies to any early pool. The normal opening is forge expand, with a scout on the forge or pylon. after he sees this, he uses the 400 minerals he has saved for the nexus, for a GW / Cannon / Pylon. This will give him a full wall off.
On October 06 2013 21:48 Ephemera wrote: CC on the high ground with proper micro should hold a 6 pool, but sometimes it doesn't, it depends on the map how they place the building and how many SCV they pull to repair and when.
It also depends on pure luck with where the SCV constructing the CC or Rax go, if they end up on the side with the lings and they haven't got SCV's ready and waiting to construct then the lings can get in.
Also drone drilling can catch people off guard.
6 Pool vs CC on high ground is 50/50.
It's more like 5/95. The 5% being the very low odds that your building SCV's move towards the lings -every- single time.
Weikor did you even watch the replay? The guy scouted on 9 and put down a 15 forge, there's a 10 second difference between if he went foge first or what he ended up doing. The cannon would've got 2 seconds of shooting which would not stop my attack in the slightest.
Now lets assume he puts down 2 cannons in the mineral lines. I would've just gone for the pylon and I still would've had enough to kill all the probes/unpowered cannons.
Monomo, first off I'm the OP so I made the thread so there's no point in telling me what this thread was made to discuss Secondly there's some (not many in the slightest) pro game examples where a zerg has drone pulled and managed to transition but I'm being pedantic it's not intended to be transitioned from.
rd, it's more likely 33% the SCV has a moving pattern that crosses through the danger zone at some point, now since 33% of the surface area of the CC is exposed to the lings I would assume that 33% is the percentage of times the SCV moves into the danger zone.
Now this is easily countered by the fact that if they pull SCVs you can restart the building straight away.
The goal is to win at the end of the day, so if you can drone pull and get a win there and then why wouldn't you? (Hence why TvP SCV pulls are so common)
I'm starting to feel that the more all in you go the better, unless I'm doing a 12 pool or I'm in ZvZ drone pulls seem to be the way and have boosted my win rate hugely.
My ZvZ build currently can win vs a 15 pool even when they see it coming, I say can because I feel like the other zerg microed this badly and didn't cancel his expo for more minerals.
My ZvT adaptive cheese also has started to bear some fruits. But early pools against Terran are the hardest to pull off I'm starting to wonder whether a roach rush might perhaps be the best answer.
Ephemera, the more i read into your post, the more i am convinced you are just some gold level player (skill wise), who tries to find some simple solution. Low masters players (im only midmasters for that matter, so im not much better either) simply lack the knowledge (not necessary to the pure reaction to an early pool though, but afterwards) to appropriate and im gonna use a word you are probably gonna love "counter" your opening. Neither do they have anything close to refined mechanics, nor do they know how to pull of a macro game of any sort. They win through luck (so do i for the most part), and so do you. He doesnt need 2 cannons in his mineral line, he needs one. A good protoss player will pull his drones to defend and not lose a single one in doing so. That is called micro. Now you say he loses mining time, which in a sense is true, but even if you were to build drones after your initial 3 sets of lings, you will wind up slightly behind. Unfortunately and without ever taking a look at those replays provided he will answer with an all in (which btw doesnt fit into his economical focused opening btw) to try to finish you off. You answer with fast units and now you wind up even. Thats just an answer on how wrong an answer can be. Any early pool against any sort of remotely good player will have to deal damage. This damage wont necessarily be dealt from your initial lings, but from his wrong reaction to it. Work on your macro <.<
On October 03 2013 06:58 Jeka wrote: While sending early lings against Protoss that opens with a forge at their natural might seem like a situation where you are ahead because they can't keep the lings out of the base, what I've found the smart ones do is make a cannon in the center of their main mineral line and they will use their probes to surround the cannon while it is constructing. I have found the best response is too use your first lings to get as many probe kills as possible before the cannon finishes. Then back off and while using your initial lings to clear outskirt buildings and dont forget make a drones after your initial lings and while you wait for the queen. Once your inject pops ull have seven larva to make 14 zerglings. Those 14 lings make 20 counting the initial 6 and you run those 20 lings into the Protoss main mineral line to kill it off. Players usually expect you to be using all your macro on drones to catch up. Even if the Protoss does a good job anticipating your attack and surrounds his cannon pre-emptively to protect it you can still back off and pick off any buildings he has tried to put up like his new forge for example. Anything not in the range of the cannon is fair game
My reaction to a 6 pool today allows me to state that this won't be so easy most of the time. I sim city near my cannon(s) after the lings destroyed my forge and by the time all those lings come I have a Mothership Core and a zealot or 2. Just cover the chokes with a zealot and pick the zerglings off with the MSC. What I love about the MSC is that it helps the toss to establish and expand after being 6 pooled, whereas in WoL it was much harder.
On October 07 2013 06:22 NoSoldier wrote: Ephemera, the more i read into your post, the more i am convinced you are just some gold level player (skill wise), who tries to find some simple solution. Low masters players (im only midmasters for that matter, so im not much better either) simply lack the knowledge (not necessary to the pure reaction to an early pool though, but afterwards) to appropriate and im gonna use a word you are probably gonna love "counter" your opening. Neither do they have anything close to refined mechanics, nor do they know how to pull of a macro game of any sort. They win through luck (so do i for the most part), and so do you. He doesnt need 2 cannons in his mineral line, he needs one. A good protoss player will pull his drones to defend and not lose a single one in doing so. That is called micro. Now you say he loses mining time, which in a sense is true, but even if you were to build drones after your initial 3 sets of lings, you will wind up slightly behind. Unfortunately and without ever taking a look at those replays provided he will answer with an all in (which btw doesnt fit into his economical focused opening btw) to try to finish you off. You answer with fast units and now you wind up even. Thats just an answer on how wrong an answer can be. Any early pool against any sort of remotely good player will have to deal damage. This damage wont necessarily be dealt from your initial lings, but from his wrong reaction to it. Work on your macro <.<
I checked the replay he posted on this page, a ZvZ. He is in fact gold. I can't help but agree with NoSoldier here Ephemera, because "refinements" of these builds are finicky in that they only work in certain, very special situations. They just won't work against a decently skilled player.
On October 06 2013 20:11 Ephemera wrote: Welkor, I just played a game which disproves your "anything later than a 8 pool" the protoss will have a full wall theory. Against people I think will gate expo, I do a 10 pool with 2 banes included which wins me most games considering I drone pull as well. Alas I don't have a replay against the gate expo but I do have what I do against FFE.
Against Terran I could show the example of Dimaga the founder of the super early baneling bust, also the theory build I posted earlier works vs CC first and has adaptations, against anything but CC first I will be behind slightly but not out of the game. (STLife has shown you can win from a 10 pool macro against top tiered Terrans who do the perfect counter)
Zerg there's so many builds that work, 10 pool macro is a standard build in the meta so in ZvZ where I have a 70% win rate early pooling is fine and macroable.
The goal is to win really, I'm not looking to get ahead into the mid/lategame with a 6 Pool, with a 10/11/12 pool then I'm looking to macro (unless I drone pull)
The guy you played tried to go for a nexus first, this is an opening that dies to any early pool. The normal opening is forge expand, with a scout on the forge or pylon. after he sees this, he uses the 400 minerals he has saved for the nexus, for a GW / Cannon / Pylon. This will give him a full wall off.
Forge first is not the normal opening. It's nexus first. And Nexus first isn't going to die to an early pool unless you choose not to scout and throw down the Nexus blindly. Secondly, your wall-off isn't going to be up in time unless you're specifically on a map that allows a 3 building wall-off, which none of the maps in the pool allow this. Even if you were on one of those maps, they'll kill the final building in your wall-off before the cannon finishes. I don't remember which specific pools can do it though.
On October 07 2013 04:19 Ephemera wrote: Weikor did you even watch the replay? The guy scouted on 9 and put down a 15 forge, there's a 10 second difference between if he went foge first or what he ended up doing. The cannon would've got 2 seconds of shooting which would not stop my attack in the slightest.
Now lets assume he puts down 2 cannons in the mineral lines. I would've just gone for the pylon and I still would've had enough to kill all the probes/unpowered cannons.
Hold on for a moment. An FFE walling off before an early pool, and an early pool killing a nexus first (attempt) are two different arguments.
Firstly, an FFE will not wall-off against an early pool (6-8) in time. In contrast to what I said to Weikor however, a nexus first will EASILY wall-off in time versus your 10 pool, with nearly 30 seconds to spare for the cannon to get a head start building if he 9 scouts (and will see the pool way before he has to drop the Nexus). By the time you get there he'll even have enough minerals to drop an extra gateway or two if you somehow manage to kill a building/pylon in the wall.
The Protoss you fought floated more than 400 minerals, building the pylon in his mineral line nearly one minute slower than he could have, which meant the cannon that followed was a minute slower. It should have been FINISHED before you even arrived, and no amount of lings or drones are breaking that with proper micro. NEVERMIND the fact he could have built three if he wanted. If the odds of you destroying a single finished cannon are unlikely, the idea you'd unpower two cannons is insanity. You'd lose everything before you brought it below half. Your replay only proves you fought a Protoss who executes at a sub-gold level, and that you really have no idea what you're talking about.
Extractor trick 11 overlord 11 spawning pool 14 overlord 14 queen + 2 pairs of zerglings 20 hatchery (transfer 7 when done)
It's actually quite economic since you get the fast queen to make drones with (you have 250 minerals when pool is done). It is obviously safer than hatchery first openings (queen helps a lot vs say reaper openings). The 2 pairs of early lings can punish a lot of builds such as CC first, nexus first, force early units form opponent, make then stay defensive, not to mention the early lings give scouting info. I prefer to do a 3 queen, late gas followup (late speed) so that at 52/52 supply you have exactly 44 drones. A two base roach-speedling timing (like 12 roach 12 pairs of zerglings) while taking a 3rd is a really nice followup.
Forge first is not the normal opening. It's nexus first. And Nexus first isn't going to die to an early pool unless you choose not to scout and throw down the Nexus blindly. Secondly, your wall-off isn't going to be up in time unless you're specifically on a map that allows a 3 building wall-off, which none of the maps in the pool allow this. Even if you were on one of those maps, they'll kill the final building in your wall-off before the cannon finishes. I don't remember which specific pools can do it though
Believe me or not Nexus first, will lose to pool at 9 or below. Forge first is the "safe" opening. You cannot afford a wall and a nexus, even a cancelled nexus will have too few minerals, and a too late forge to hold the front.
I just tested it in a game, the normal 13 forge - scout has a complete wall on ANY ladder map at 3:02, an 8 pool ( the earliest pool i claim to hold with a forge first) arrives at your base at 3:12 - and your cannon (which is not part of the wall) finishes behind the wall 5-10 seconds later.
Now - i agree that, since I havent seen pool first in 50 games, I prefer nexus first. (well.. everyone does hatch first now, and noone really holds a cannonrush properly so i take the easy wins here)
Hello again. This thread has influenced me to do 9-10p vs terran and toss all week. I have won 90% of these games while doing close to zero damage. maybe its my macro. but I was only 20 sec behind or so with timings. Its the map control that really helps the zerg. the toss and terran must place safe fearing an all in I think.;
I am 1400 masters, facing top 8's high masters, and 1-2 gms a day.
On October 07 2013 23:43 BuiBui wrote: Hello again. This thread has influenced me to do 9-10p vs terran and toss all week. I have won 90% of these games while doing close to zero damage. maybe its my macro. but I was only 20 sec behind or so with timings. Its the map control that really helps the zerg. the toss and terran must place safe fearing an all in I think.;
I am 1400 masters, facing top 8's high masters, and 1-2 gms a day.
Hmmm. How many corners do you cut? Seems like they should shut you down as soon as hellions come out/MC pops.
Nethzor and NoSoldier, I'm not a gold level player. That was my EU account which I am levelling because I get better ping than my old server which was NA. My account on EU is now in platinum and the MMR means I'm constantly facing diamonds and masters. (With a win rate of 70% in all MU except Terran which is at 50%)
I've beaten masters with macro based games so this thread wasn't created because I'm looking for easy ways to get into masters. I made this thread because the concept of early pools intrigues me and they're what got me into playing zerg in the first place.
BuiBui, first off happy birthday secondly it's great to hear someone else doing early pools and doing so at a high level with a good win rate. I would be interested to hear how you transition/hold onto that map control if they went for a reaper expand.
@ Qwyn if they go for rax ---> cc or cc ---> rax. (assuming zer0 damage done because they played safe with cc on high ground for full wall off)
Your 6 lings prevent the terran from putting down their bunker, and cc. They need to make 5-6 rines, or wait for helions to pop out before they can take their natural. This means that they must mule in their main base. making them run out at their main base faster (which will affect the game around the 15-20 min mark)
If you play "standard" with your gas, third, ov, and RW timings, from the 9-10p. your roaches pop right when their helions get to your base, preventing you from being punished. From here it is a normal game.
Honestly it seems that you both are even'ish, the only benefit is you are safe from any proxy two rax, and are called a hacker lol.
@Ephemera. 10p vs reaper into hellion is more tricky. You will be a bit behind because of how fast helions pop. as far as I can tell you have two real options. The reapers prevent you from getting map control. But the fast queen prevents any damage done to you. However their helions pop out faster, and most terrans will do a 2 reaper 6 hellion timing which is tough to hold. In fact, you must use your third queen to block your choke, giving you just enough time for roaches. This is the problem. Because of the earlier timing. You must skip your upgrades to get roaches out in time to save your third. This is crappy because the terran upgrades will be faster then yours. gross. so I would suggest an all in such as roach, mass ling, mass bane all in (8-9 min timing) or a 1/1 all in of some kind.
OR
I think this is a better answer, you can skip your third base for very fast upgrades, a wall with one spine, and do a timing while saturating your third. kinda like zvz. I like a 1/1 speed roach burrow timing, while saturating my third. into 2/2 roach hydra max. But any 2 base timing into third base is fine. 1/1 ling bling into muta for example.
Now clearly. standard hatch first play is much better vs reaper opening. and 10p is very good vs cc first. and even vs rax first.
Just a roll the dice decision
EDIT. build order:
10p 12ext trick 12/10 ov 17 hatch 16queen 18ov queen 23ov queen at nat. 31ov 40-44 ov, third base (vs cc/rax or rax/cc) 40-44 double gas (around 6min) 40-44 roach warren make 4 roaches when it pops 60 evo wall.
next gas double grades lings speed lair bane nest. (note, if they only have 2 cc, and will do a 10 min timing, you should make units before fully suturing your third) when all 3 bases are saturated (all gas) and then macro hatch around 10 min 4th base, (make units around 9 :30 for a 3 cc build)
EDIT EDIT:
one more thing to add. Mechanics and macro get you into masters, any build you use to get there. I would suggest less all ins and more macro play.
A 9 / 10 pool opening vs a command center first on highground followed by macro.
Honestly it seems that you both are even'ish
I would like to list how a game goes vs an equally skilled oponent you would otherwise have won against.
The game starts, you 9 pool, the terran has walled off his highground. You drone behind this, but the terran lost only his scouting scv. The terran then proceeds to, forced by the lings, to stay on the highground, behind this he has double mule and SCV production, allowing him to saturate his main quicker than usual and take his gasses.
The big problem with failed early pools, isnt so much the drone saturation, its the fact that your tech will be extremely delayed, since you need every drone to mine as many minerals to mine for more drones / units.
An extractor cutting 25% of your mineral income is just horrible when you have 1.5 base saturation, so now you end up beeing on the back foot.
The terran scouts your natural and sees you are trying to play economically therefore triggering the greedy terran play.
Macroing from slightly behind, it closes many timing windows, allowing the terran to play just a little greedier than he could otherwise. He gets his ebays up earlier than he wanted to, or more rax, or he moves out or even another expansion. the 2 base zerg early pool zerg is no real threat against his widowmine marine combo.
Nethzor and NoSoldier, I'm not a gold level player. That was my EU account which I am levelling because I get better ping than my old server which was NA. My account on EU is now in platinum and the MMR means I'm constantly facing diamonds and masters. (With a win rate of 70% in all MU except Terran which is at 50%)
Sorry, where was the difference again? When i was in bronce i was facing masters at a constant rate too!... I am though interested in seeing some of BuiBui's replays and have a look at how things went. It is though not imaginable for me, how still people cant react properly and simply be ahead economywise and give it all away. What comes to mind is burrow, mutas, multipronged aggression and all in or just "overplay" plays out of you to follow things up to get back in the game. Seemeths just a little ... too retarded for me to believe that winrate. On the other hand players (including myself) are really retarded.. might as well be true.
Well i as well for fun played 2 games against terran with 10p. 1st game i went for muta ling bling after it and just barely lost in 25+ min game because i lost 20+ mutas to 4-5 mine hits. 2th game opponent goes reaper expand and i kill 1 worker and reaper and nothing else then i went 1/1 roach baneling from 3 base and it was not even close as opponent say lol and left game.
Cant say i felt i was behind at all, and the 1st game i lost because of my bad muta control and was ahead before that.
NoSoldier, seems legitimate that a bronze player would face masters consistently, I think someone is telling porkies or was playing in ladder lock.
BuiBui, my goal isn't to get to masters as fast as possible it's to do it whilst having fun and gaining better early game knowledge and decision making.
STLife 10 Pool macro vs Terran seems to be the only way to beat a Terran with an early pool (Other than 6 pool vs CC first) the follow up STLife does after it was a 1/1 SBling SLing timing with around 30 banelings.
My adaptation of this would be to add in overlord speed and make more overseers, serve up a dimaga special and tank all the widowmines which did the crucial damage to stop this attack which is not an all in but a strong timing.
If anything going for early pools will force mistakes out of your opponents. That is basically what early pools are trying to achieve.
You wont learn very much about "early decisionmaking" with 6 pooling either because of the above. Your opponents learn more from your play than you from their reactions. If you want to improve your decisionmaking you should switch to macrooriented plays and scout for gasses. If you are trying to get the "kill switch" enabled, so you know when to kill an opponent you wanna just try to be aggressive as you can or feel like you can do it. Even attacking when you dont feel like you should succeed with that attack you will be suprised at how weak strong looking builds are at times. Early game decisionmaking comes with your awareness to what you can scout, but it wont win the games for you. You need lategame decisionmaking in order to win games, which also is something you wont learn with early aggression wins at all.
Btw that video has no early pool in it whatsoever.
Early decision making comes from macroing out of a 10 pool opener (I had not mentioned the 6 Pool anywhere) due to the wide variety of responses your opponent will throw your way you have to be on top of your scouting injects and pressure all at the same time.
The video was to highlight the possible transition out of this build rather than showing off an early pool.
Before you jump to have a go at me for not being dreary and standard playing actually read my post.
STLife 10 Pool macro vs Terran seems to be the only way to beat a Terran with an early pool (Other than 6 pool vs CC first) the follow up STLife does after it was a 1/1 SBling SLing timing with around 30 banelings.
Into video. Enough said.
How will your early game decisionmaking develop from 10 pooling? I have no idea to be honest. Its not like i never all in or never put down an early pool. Its just not going to help you improve as much as regular macrogames will help you out.
I tried to help, though my overall tone was aggressive, which is maybe unnecessary. I admit that. This is just the wrong way going about learning how to play this game properly and im sure that 99% of good players will agree here. I made my point, nothing to add. Fare well in Starcraft 2.
Flash, the god of BW for the majority of his early career used "cheese" for victories and became the most solid macro player, Marineking used cheese and still does, considered the god of micro. Hyvaa the best sniper for Soul and has a very good record and he consistently uses cheese yet almost beat Innovation in a macro game.
Macro may be the best way to learn for some, others early pools/cheese are a better way. It's person to person at the end of the day, I find learning from early pools/cheese better than learning through macro.
My early decisionmaking would develop for 10 pool macro because the variety of choices your opponent can make after and the various all ins they come out with after.
I didn't phrase that talk about the video very well, sorry. In other games in the tournament he used that build from a 10 pool but I couldn't find the VODS. Nevermind.
There are always people on these forums and on SC2 forums in general that take offence when nonstandard play is discussed, even when it's play that is sometimes used in high-level games. I don't actually understand why that is. Maybe it's just an extension of the ladder rage commonly encountered if you dare make your third not the first second it's possible. Or it is just a thing between Zerg players, I don't know.
Keep going, Ephemera. Although I don't think there are early variations that have really gone by people, it's still interesting to reconsider some of them. Especially in ZvZ there are quite a number of them that can work if the opponent hasn't played against it in a while and doesn't react correctly. I find it useful to know them if you want to concentrate on ZvP and ZvT ladder practice ...
Thank you for kind words of encouragement velvex, I'm currently watching all the replays of TvZ openers I can find and probing them for a weak spot against early pools or transitions that are possible from early pools. I was watching a Day9 daily about forcing certain tech paths and certain choices and I think I may have hit onto a possible build that might work.
I don't understand why there's such a deep and ingrained hatred of non macro play. It just is disapproved as if you're worse at the game and you don't deserve the league you're in.
Cheesing in higher leagues takes a lot of skill it's picking the right build for the situation and then picking the right transition assuming it is transitional.
I am going to post my last two replays vs terran both 30 min ago. they will be up in a few hours. I did not cherry pick them. they are simply my last two games
On October 09 2013 05:42 Ephemera wrote: Thank you for kind words of encouragement velvex, I'm currently watching all the replays of TvZ openers I can find and probing them for a weak spot against early pools or transitions that are possible from early pools. I was watching a Day9 daily about forcing certain tech paths and certain choices and I think I may have hit onto a possible build that might work.
I don't understand why there's such a deep and ingrained hatred of non macro play. It just is disapproved as if you're worse at the game and you don't deserve the league you're in.
Cheesing in higher leagues takes a lot of skill it's picking the right build for the situation and then picking the right transition assuming it is transitional.
I'd blame iloveoov and Nal-RA for starting the trend of Macro > All
You don't get the nickname of "cheater terran" for nothing.
FYI Boxer won an OSL by doing 3 bunker rushes in a row to the roar of thousands of fans.
JulyZerg also 6pooled like a champion many times.
Its not that cheesy play has always been despised, its that at some point Macro play (In BW) became the epitome of skill in the game. That was transferred over to SC2.
I still miss the PvP matches of old where it was a 4gate every game. That was when MC had an almost 90% winrate since he was the only one with the micro to actually win PvP consistently. It was an intense micro war that sometimes only ended when players ran out of minerals at the main.
However, since it was not a 3base push, it was ridiculed as "bad."
Saying that, fuck BW ZvZ and its Ling/Muta/Scouurge
These are my last two games I played today. I did not cherry pick the "best" ones" In fact, I have not even watched the replays yet. Both are vs terrans with 1300 - 1400 points I believe.
This is a 10p vs a cc first play. I will note that I messed up and got melee and range grades. oops. but still won. http://drop.sc/361760
This is vs reaper first. I catch the first reaper, very lucky. But I dont feel like it would have mattered that much. http://drop.sc/361761
EDIT: Note I still think hatch first is better. But I would def do this in a b03 situation
For the record: I think i never just disagreed an "early pool"/"earlier attack than usual that has to deal some damage to be equal" CAN NOT work or has no viable use in some situations, be that certain builds you are most likely to encounter, or BO-(X*2)-1 situations. If i remember correctly i even said that early pools are very good for tournament games, when you are trying to win and do dem mindgames.
I do however believe, that "early game knowledge" dependant on early pool openings will not help you as much improving your play and moving up in skill, than e.g. macrooriented styles would. Reason behind this being, that idealy these attacks are bound to not outright murder your opponent with the first attack. Therefor you will be relying on more than this one attack to end the game and since through that early uneconomic opening you are at least "slightly behind" in terms of income, or in general your development you will most likely not be able to pull off an immediate followup "all in", e.g. banelingbusts/roachallin from the position you are at after that early pool and win straight away.
These pushes however are able to put your opponent in an uncomfortable position, in which their usual "timings" arent of any value anymore, as everything gets delayed by a significant enough amount of time, for them to feel "off rhythm", which as i think beautifully illustrated with the games provided from BuiBui. Yet wins like this are not possible without the mechanics to pull them off (to an certain extend basic understanding of the opposing race and possibilities). I do believe that the required mechanics (Injects, Multitasking units + Macro) overweighs that "early game knowledge" gained in these type of games, because at the end of the day people are either gonna be aggressive or outright passive in several ways. I feel like im missing my point, but im too tired to nail it, even though this time i feel calm and dont have the urge to be agressive for no reason at all. :D Go with this!
On October 09 2013 12:41 NoSoldier wrote: For the record: I think i never just disagreed an "early pool"/"earlier attack than usual that has to deal some damage to be equal" CAN NOT work or has no viable use in some situations, be that certain builds you are most likely to encounter, or BO-(X*2)-1 situations. If i remember correctly i even said that early pools are very good for tournament games, when you are trying to win and do dem mindgames.
I do however believe, that "early game knowledge" dependant on early pool openings will not help you as much improving your play and moving up in skill, than e.g. macrooriented styles would. Reason behind this being, that idealy these attacks are bound to not outright murder your opponent with the first attack. Therefor you will be relying on more than this one attack to end the game and since through that early uneconomic opening you are at least "slightly behind" in terms of income, or in general your development you will most likely not be able to pull off an immediate followup "all in", e.g. banelingbusts/roachallin from the position you are at after that early pool and win straight away.
These pushes however are able to put your opponent in an uncomfortable position, in which their usual "timings" arent of any value anymore, as everything gets delayed by a significant enough amount of time, for them to feel "off rhythm", which as i think beautifully illustrated with the games provided from BuiBui. Yet wins like this are not possible without the mechanics to pull them off (to an certain extend basic understanding of the opposing race and possibilities). I do believe that the required mechanics (Injects, Multitasking units + Macro) overweighs that "early game knowledge" gained in these type of games, because at the end of the day people are either gonna be aggressive or outright passive in several ways. I feel like im missing my point, but im too tired to nail it, even though this time i feel calm and dont have the urge to be agressive for no reason at all. :D Go with this!
EDIT.
thanks mate. I agree with you 100%. when you know basics and the standard meta game builds/strats. You can make something that looks like cheese. into a fake out and do a standard game. Because I know my hatch first, gasless 4 queen build very well. I was able to bridge the gap between 10p and 4queen build. because I know the timings so well. E.G. the best Ov, gas, and inject timings. in addition, I can only afford 3 queens, or I would not be larve efficient and not be able to get my third base and gas in time. and finally, getting the hatch before my first queen actually gives better eco by the 6 min range, even tho going 15queen after 10p is better in the early game. (useful info if you are being proxy 2 raxed)
EDIT EDIT Summery: I think we both agree that early pool is viable if you know the game very well. all the builds. strats. plays.
Yes it may delay your opponents timings, but i think that is good at its own way because you should have timing feeling more on the moment than just x time like at 11 min my opponent will attack.
Still i can't see how hatch first against 10p makes it any better for learning mechanics. 10p will most likely not kill your opponent so you will have to macro after that and i would argue its even better for learning mechanics as you have to compensate for being possibly being behind with better mechanics or knowledge. In this case your most likely being active with lings and macroing at same time.
Other thing i could argue with is that if you just get easy win with it that may mean that you will get better opponents that will get you better training.
Its just that there is nothing magical about hatch first that makes you better player. If you open 10p and go for macro game after it is by no mean worse for learning than opening hatch first.
Just to give an example for this macro oriented way of playing: Myself... im currently around 1300ish points masters on NA Ladder with about 90 Games played with Zerg. I dont really have any build except for hatch first or pool first. In ZvZ this goes up to baneling nest, but its like first 100 gas speed next 50 baneling nest, switch around if aggression early. From here i go totally intuitive how i feel i should answer to my opponents ability to have stuff.
Should i get speed? Do i want lings or roaches? (usually lings :D) And im just droning like an idiot all the time, keeping my injects and my creepspread up and running trying to find out what my opponents goals are, how he expands and thinking of how i can abuse this with the high amount of money i have.
I am also in a certain extent abuseing the scouting information i give them e.g. showing tech and not using it, making them in the best case scenario overbuilding e.g. turrets, or vikings. And i try to play a mapawareness oriented multipronged aggression style by just sending some units at different places at once, buying me time to get whatever i want or need and slowly chipping away the economic strength my opponent has. I rarely ever do "all in ish" plays, even though i have that on my to do list. I am still developing my average game understanding, trying to be judging the correct "long term" answer every single time. Im not even using swarmhosts and rarely vipers and infestors, because i just feel uncomfortable using them. (Another thing on my to do list :D)
On October 09 2013 13:28 NoSoldier wrote: Just to give an example for this macro oriented way of playing: Myself... im currently around 1300ish points masters on NA Ladder with about 90 Games played with Zerg. I dont really have any build except for hatch first or pool first. In ZvZ this goes up to baneling nest, but its like first 100 gas speed next 50 baneling nest, switch around if aggression early. From here i go totally intuitive how i feel i should answer to my opponents ability to have stuff.
Should i get speed? Do i want lings or roaches? (usually lings :D) And im just droning like an idiot all the time, keeping my injects and my creepspread up and running trying to find out what my opponents goals are, how he expands and thinking of how i can abuse this with the high amount of money i have.
I am also in a certain extent abuseing the scouting information i give them e.g. showing tech and not using it, making them in the best case scenario overbuilding e.g. turrets, or vikings. And i try to play a mapawareness oriented multipronged aggression style by just sending some units at different places at once, buying me time to get whatever i want or need and slowly chipping away the economic strength my opponent has. I rarely ever do "all in ish" plays, even though i have that on my to do list. I am still developing my average game understanding, trying to be judging the correct "long term" answer every single time. Im not even using swarmhosts and rarely vipers and infestors, because i just feel uncomfortable using them. (Another thing on my to do list :D)
If that is of any help. :D
You mostly list tactical good aggro plays that you can pretty much do with every build including 10 pool. 10 pool may limit some of options you have with hatch first, but you can't get everything. In lot of pros games you see them opening differently or doing some difference in the build just to get back to same end goal. You can do just the same with 10 pool, but the road changes (some times not even that much).
If your good with 10 pool into macro game, you will be good with hatch first. You just have to train it as well, but the basics are same so its not that hard. If your just playing ladder it does not matter which one you use, if you just keep refining your play you will win games. In the ladder there are reasons to use 10 pool 1. you get easy fast wins so you get better opponents faster 2. For some people it may be more fun.
Then on CW or tournament if your good with 10 pool it can be realy great morale boost. Even if you lose you can blame it on disadvantage you got from opening.
That is what i said with "i think i am not nailing my point here". The simple reason behind my statement a later pool > 10 pool is that people just dont build drones at a constant rate whatsoever. They lack the very basics, if they even know, that it is mostly about economy in this game. So opening with 10 pool will make it much harder to move up in the ladder and at the same time develop your macro skill aequivalently.Just look at those protoss all ins. :o Sure you win games, but thats not what improving is about, is it? People will be too confused to macro properly behind a 10 pool. Hell even i that i practised that jazz am at times really horrible at executing that. I love pulling this card anyway: Which league are you in Coconut?
I would say mid master. i have only played 45 ranked games this season and have 600 points and 600 bonus pool. ZvT is my best match up with at moment 11-2 record and in hots all time 61% (1st season i had only around 40% win rate). I don't 10 pool but the couple times i used it it seemed ok.
I'm am not saying 10 pool is better, but just saying its clearly inferior in learning in my opinion is just wrong. We may have to agree to disagree on the matter, but i think it does not matter that much what you do as long as you make sure your doing it "perfectly".
There is lot of ways of improving. There is nothing wrong with just learning 1 all in "perfectly" then learning another all in "perfectly" and so on. Now we have player that can beat gm players ones in while and take series with some luck, later we may have new MVP who just seems to have build for everything. This is by no means less valid than being mechanical beast like innovation, its just different way of reaching same goal that is winning.
Low masters terran and use high ground cc first only larger/4spawn maps and 12/12 reaper on the more reaper friendly maps. I view early pools (<=10p) as more or less a free win for me -- so by all means, keep doing them. ^_^
I think we are losing the focus of this thread. the topic was, are early pool's viable. and If you watch these games I posted earlier, you can clearly see that they can be. I am sorry that I said "Even tho I even said hatch first is better." because that is a separate topic
On October 09 2013 10:48 BuiBui wrote: These are my last two games I played today. I did not cherry pick the "best" ones" In fact, I have not even watched the replays yet. Both are vs terrans with 1300 - 1400 points I believe.
This is a 10p vs a cc first play. I will note that I messed up and got melee and range grades. oops. but still won. http://drop.sc/361760
This is vs reaper first. I catch the first reaper, very lucky. But I dont feel like it would have mattered that much. http://drop.sc/361761
EDIT: Note I still think hatch first is better. But I would def do this in a b03 situation
Hatch first is better in the ZvT match up and against random players but as you say that's another discussion thread. I have currently been theorycrafting a build and have used it in some games to decent success.
ZvT from my point of view is a match up I dread, it limits the options I have and almost always forces me to 10 Pool macro, unless I wish to roll the dice and 6 Pool or go for the Dimaga fast 6 Banelings and hope they don't scout for ages/make one bunker or rewall. So naturally I've been focused on working out a viable way to early pool and get things done.
Some facts, it takes 7 Marines to kill one spine crawler and 12 Marines for two and 16 Marines for three. (All with Target fire)
With the build I theorise you can have 3 Spines at the enemy base by 4mins. If the opponent has done CC first they will have 1 Marine at this point.
Due to the time it takes for the marine count to take the spine crawlers on there's only 2 options for stopping the attack, tanks or air units. With a barrack first and a quick gas the fastest a tank can be out is around the 5:15 mark. That's a whole minute of time when they can't contest or stop your attack.
So that gives a nice attack window. Assuming the perfect and fastest counter to this build they will have 5 marines 22 SCV and 1 Siege Tank by 5:30. Another counter is the reaper for obvious reasons. In a standard reaper build they will put down gas around 2:00 meaning a 1:15 Drone scout timing to be able to abort this build and go into 10 Pool macro.
The key part is that the spine crawlers will break down a wall the only thing that stands in the way of an early pool. It takes 4 Spine crawlers to out DPS 3-4 SCVs repairing, but due to the positioning of the spine crawlers SCVs can be killed by the spines. During this 1min time window 42 SCVs can be killed if they are in range of the spine crawlers making repairing out of the question and a 4th spine crawler not necessary.
So now we have established that you will crack the wall what is the best unit composition to be able to make best use of that? Ideally you'd want roaches with burrow or mutalisks since the spine crawlers are there to crack the wall rather than participate in the fight.
A banshee is possible by around 6:30 so Mutalisks may not be needed if you can effectively exploit the timing.
So far the build involves: 10 Extractor 10 Pool Extractor trick 11 Overlord @100% Pool Lair.
The finer points of when I can drone are still being worked out since this is only just been even partly thought out. I will have lings out in time to defend from and barracks first marine trying to stop my overlord dropping creep.
As I said I think I want to add a scout into this build for the simple fact of being able to abort this build if I see gas early because reapers would ruin my drone ling and would stop the spines from going up since the lings can't catch them.
Anyway please tell me what you think of the theory.
Well that's fabulous for you, but please enlighten me as to how that helps this thread in anyway? Even so there's a fast speed into baneling bust build which uses a fast baneling build, which could still beat your build.
I don't think you understand what I just said, it would not be after my "failed" X pool it would be part of that pool. If you made 2 reapers and you didn't spot me on the first spot in a 4 player map then it would be game over with that build of yours. But yes in theory your build should set you up fine vs early pools but 10 pool macro will only put the zerg at a slight disadvantage rather than a game ending one.
1 Reaper can't deal with the amount of speedlings that will flood in after the baneling bust the wall but never mind because that's not the point of this thread.
On October 11 2013 04:30 Ephemera wrote: Hatch first is better in the ZvT match up and against random players but as you say that's another discussion thread. I have currently been theorycrafting a build and have used it in some games to decent success.
ZvT from my point of view is a match up I dread, it limits the options I have and almost always forces me to 10 Pool macro, unless I wish to roll the dice and 6 Pool or go for the Dimaga fast 6 Banelings and hope they don't scout for ages/make one bunker or rewall. So naturally I've been focused on working out a viable way to early pool and get things done.
Some facts, it takes 7 Marines to kill one spine crawler and 12 Marines for two and 16 Marines for three. (All with Target fire)
With the build I theorise you can have 3 Spines at the enemy base by 4mins. If the opponent has done CC first they will have 1 Marine at this point.
Due to the time it takes for the marine count to take the spine crawlers on there's only 2 options for stopping the attack, tanks or air units. With a barrack first and a quick gas the fastest a tank can be out is around the 5:15 mark. That's a whole minute of time when they can't contest or stop your attack.
So that gives a nice attack window. Assuming the perfect and fastest counter to this build they will have 5 marines 22 SCV and 1 Siege Tank by 5:30. Another counter is the reaper for obvious reasons. In a standard reaper build they will put down gas around 2:00 meaning a 1:15 Drone scout timing to be able to abort this build and go into 10 Pool macro.
The key part is that the spine crawlers will break down a wall the only thing that stands in the way of an early pool. It takes 4 Spine crawlers to out DPS 3-4 SCVs repairing, but due to the positioning of the spine crawlers SCVs can be killed by the spines. During this 1min time window 42 SCVs can be killed if they are in range of the spine crawlers making repairing out of the question and a 4th spine crawler not necessary.
So now we have established that you will crack the wall what is the best unit composition to be able to make best use of that? Ideally you'd want roaches with burrow or mutalisks since the spine crawlers are there to crack the wall rather than participate in the fight.
A banshee is possible by around 6:30 so Mutalisks may not be needed if you can effectively exploit the timing.
So far the build involves: 10 Extractor 10 Pool Extractor trick 11 Overlord @100% Pool Lair.
The finer points of when I can drone are still being worked out since this is only just been even partly thought out. I will have lings out in time to defend from and barracks first marine trying to stop my overlord dropping creep.
As I said I think I want to add a scout into this build for the simple fact of being able to abort this build if I see gas early because reapers would ruin my drone ling and would stop the spines from going up since the lings can't catch them.
Anyway please tell me what you think of the theory.
Even though it is possible to kill the terran with a build like this. It is only going to work vs the current terran meta game. Any other old school build will put you way behind. Such as, the 1/1/1 build where they can do banshee or hellion drops. Honestly I have tried every possible build you can do from 10p. and the best one is gasless into "standard" game.
I'm starting to agree with that statement, my win rate currently with the 10 pool macro into two queens then expo is 100%. The two queens stops any counter all in which I struggled to defend with your build with getting that faster hatch.
Admittedly I just played someone and did a 6 Pool drone pull and he defended flawlessly but still lost because he let me macro. (He walled off so I sent the drones back)
Early pools are a really good tool for taking map control from the word go it is the transition that I'm looking at. I think as I get closer to masters early pools will get easier, which sounds counter productive but it's true. At masters they play greedier than in and around diamond level, all though the macro of the player is stronger the more liable they are to the early pool will work in my favour (Or at least I hope so)
early pools (before 10) are almost always viable to some extent in zvp, because you force 1base play for a very long time and are mostly on equal footing when you expand the first 6-8 lings.
Currently I'm on a 25-2 Winning streak since yesterday because I've been predominantly going for the macro 10 pool. +1 Roach in ZvZ is my transition 1/1 Ling bane bust in ZvT 2/2 Roach Hydra Viper timing is ZvP
Only time I've lost is from counter all ins and sloppy scouting.
On October 11 2013 04:30 Ephemera wrote: Hatch first is better in the ZvT match up and against random players but as you say that's another discussion thread. I have currently been theorycrafting a build and have used it in some games to decent success.
ZvT from my point of view is a match up I dread, it limits the options I have and almost always forces me to 10 Pool macro, unless I wish to roll the dice and 6 Pool or go for the Dimaga fast 6 Banelings and hope they don't scout for ages/make one bunker or rewall. So naturally I've been focused on working out a viable way to early pool and get things done.
Some facts, it takes 7 Marines to kill one spine crawler and 12 Marines for two and 16 Marines for three. (All with Target fire)
With the build I theorise you can have 3 Spines at the enemy base by 4mins. If the opponent has done CC first they will have 1 Marine at this point.
Due to the time it takes for the marine count to take the spine crawlers on there's only 2 options for stopping the attack, tanks or air units. With a barrack first and a quick gas the fastest a tank can be out is around the 5:15 mark. That's a whole minute of time when they can't contest or stop your attack.
So that gives a nice attack window. Assuming the perfect and fastest counter to this build they will have 5 marines 22 SCV and 1 Siege Tank by 5:30. Another counter is the reaper for obvious reasons. In a standard reaper build they will put down gas around 2:00 meaning a 1:15 Drone scout timing to be able to abort this build and go into 10 Pool macro.
The key part is that the spine crawlers will break down a wall the only thing that stands in the way of an early pool. It takes 4 Spine crawlers to out DPS 3-4 SCVs repairing, but due to the positioning of the spine crawlers SCVs can be killed by the spines. During this 1min time window 42 SCVs can be killed if they are in range of the spine crawlers making repairing out of the question and a 4th spine crawler not necessary.
So now we have established that you will crack the wall what is the best unit composition to be able to make best use of that? Ideally you'd want roaches with burrow or mutalisks since the spine crawlers are there to crack the wall rather than participate in the fight.
A banshee is possible by around 6:30 so Mutalisks may not be needed if you can effectively exploit the timing.
So far the build involves: 10 Extractor 10 Pool Extractor trick 11 Overlord @100% Pool Lair.
The finer points of when I can drone are still being worked out since this is only just been even partly thought out. I will have lings out in time to defend from and barracks first marine trying to stop my overlord dropping creep.
As I said I think I want to add a scout into this build for the simple fact of being able to abort this build if I see gas early because reapers would ruin my drone ling and would stop the spines from going up since the lings can't catch them.
Anyway please tell me what you think of the theory.
Even though it is possible to kill the terran with a build like this. It is only going to work vs the current terran meta game. Any other old school build will put you way behind. Such as, the 1/1/1 build where they can do banshee or hellion drops. Honestly I have tried every possible build you can do from 10p. and the best one is gasless into "standard" game.
I'm inclined to agree, the two replays you posted looked pretty solid. Got any more?
Well I've been doing a lot of 6 Pools recently and I've found out that 6 Pool against Terran is less of a has to be CC first or gg build, admittedly it's unlikely you will win if they go barracks first but if they make one miss micro they will lose and if you have perfect micro you might even be able to still win even if they do defend.
It's all about the wall, delay or stop the wall and you've got an easy win vs CC first and against Rax first you've got a slim chance (Even though I've won 80% of my games against Rax first but they've miss microed)
So 6 Pools has been super common in my play, 10 Pool macro is now a standard build in GSL and was featured in a replay Day9 picked using Jaedong.
On October 17 2013 03:19 Ephemera wrote: Well I've been doing a lot of 6 Pools recently and I've found out that 6 Pool against Terran is less of a has to be CC first or gg build, admittedly it's unlikely you will win if they go barracks first but if they make one miss micro they will lose and if you have perfect micro you might even be able to still win even if they do defend.
It's all about the wall, delay or stop the wall and you've got an easy win vs CC first and against Rax first you've got a slim chance (Even though I've won 80% of my games against Rax first but they've miss microed)
So 6 Pools has been super common in my play, 10 Pool macro is now a standard build in GSL and was featured in a replay Day9 picked using Jaedong.
You have the replay? Or the daily?
The roach transition was cute BuiBui, would have liked to see some more creepspread with all that queen energy you had banked up ^^.
Dunno what that guy was doing, your third denies kept you on top though ^^.
On October 17 2013 03:19 Ephemera wrote: Well I've been doing a lot of 6 Pools recently and I've found out that 6 Pool against Terran is less of a has to be CC first or gg build, admittedly it's unlikely you will win if they go barracks first but if they make one miss micro they will lose and if you have perfect micro you might even be able to still win even if they do defend.
It's all about the wall, delay or stop the wall and you've got an easy win vs CC first and against Rax first you've got a slim chance (Even though I've won 80% of my games against Rax first but they've miss microed)
So 6 Pools has been super common in my play, 10 Pool macro is now a standard build in GSL and was featured in a replay Day9 picked using Jaedong.
You have the replay? Or the daily?
The roach transition was cute BuiBui, would have liked to see some more creepspread with all that queen energy you had banked up ^^.
Dunno what that guy was doing, your third denies kept you on top though ^^.
LOL. My team was making fun of me hard for my "seriously gosu creep spread yo" I think I was drinking scotch that game...
A big thank you to BuiBui and his solid input. Very valuable.
One word from me (only being a former Diamond player): I love to vary my builds, I have more fun with it.
From my experience (in my skill area) unorthodox builds exert psychological pressure. Opponents are forced to play along a route not as well automated and comfortable than the current "standard", into a situation they are less experienced with than (hopefully) you are. They are more subject to mistakes and bad decision making.
This often compensates even imperfect execution of those unorthodox builds, sometimes even drastically so :-)
P.S.: One build I like was posted here way ago, pre-HotS, (by a chinese Grandmaster/Korean Master player). It was called "Chinese boy ZvT" or something. 13 pool 7 roach pressure while purely droning, catching up and overtaking T eco. This worked well as alternative play vs. the at that time popular 1-1-1 builds and the like, and still seems to work well vs. T expand builds (on my level).
Sounds like an interesting build Metaspace, I would give it a go were it not the fact I have to do pools before overlord, might try and adapt it for a 12 pool.
Anyway I just hit diamond on EU took me long enough, now to masters. As I said at the start of this thread, I would create a guide for all things early pool by the time I hit masters but I could do one now if people feel diamond is a high enough league for me to do an indepth guide on early pools? (Considering I've done 400 games of early pools this season and with 70% win rate)
On October 19 2013 00:18 Ephemera wrote: Sounds like an interesting build Metaspace, I would give it a go were it not the fact I have to do pools before overlord, might try and adapt it for a 12 pool.
Anyway I just hit diamond on EU took me long enough, now to masters. As I said at the start of this thread, I would create a guide for all things early pool by the time I hit masters but I could do one now if people feel diamond is a high enough league for me to do an indepth guide on early pools? (Considering I've done 400 games of early pools this season and with 70% win rate)
I'd say wait on the guide, but post some replays, I'd definitely be down to check them out. especially ten pools vs terran and/or anything vs gate expands. preferably some wins and some losses.
Sure thing, I will compile some more replays when I get them. I've only done one 10 Pool macro today it is far from my best and I made some silly mistakes but It shows how I usually transition even though I didn't do so perfectly, but it is against gate expand!
I start with 10 Pool macro (obviously) which forces a cancel on his nexus I heavily macro up and he goes for a 4 gate which I defend but with massive drone losses putting me behind but ahead on tech/upgrades. He tries to transition and I keep making units and hit a timing before any splash damage is out, I then just zerg him with my superior unit rebuild time. I win but only just.
I'm making some folders and compiling my games currently so will have a lot of replays for my guide/here.
He deals with the 10 pool perfectly, he "macroed" into a 8 Gate 4 Immortal all in with +2 Armour, I have "macroed" onto 3 bases into Roach hydra I have a nasty supply block at 11:00. I delay my 2/2 because I like to put on pressure but I should've done better in scouting though. I crush the all in with ease he doesn't do great force fields but they weren't the worst.
On October 17 2013 06:29 Qwyn wrote: You have the replay? Or the daily?
Daily #645 and it was the third Ro16 WCS match between Jaedong and Taeja.
There are a few things to note about that game that I find interesting.
First, he gets queen at 16, instead of hatch... He gets hatch at 18 when he can afford it, Also. he gets fast gas at 18, which is also interesting. Despite Day 9 gushing over the Dong. (can't blame him, I do too) The fast a queen made the first injection or larve pop at a time when he was supply blocked. (26 supply) This supply block occurs because with fast queen and fast gas, you can not afford to get a ov in the 23-26 supply range, with out losing larve.
In addition, why go for fast gas when you clearly see cc first? The biggest thing to fear would be from helions. But you have enough time to wall off with 3-4 queens vs that. I know the dong won that game. But I feel like he could have much better If his opening build was better.
Isn't it obvious BuiBui? It's for map control, a 10 pool takes map control and that fast gas keeps the map control for when hellions come out. Map control gives you 40 seconds warning of attacks allowing for 40 seconds more of army or for 40 seconds more of drones. Your 3-4 queens is a heavy mineral commitment and losses the map control the 10 pool gained making the 10 pool almost pointless for map control and just a way to possibly punish a CC first on the low ground.
On October 19 2013 23:26 Ephemera wrote: Isn't it obvious BuiBui? It's for map control, a 10 pool takes map control and that fast gas keeps the map control for when hellions come out. Map control gives you 40 seconds warning of attacks allowing for 40 seconds more of army or for 40 seconds more of drones. Your 3-4 queens is a heavy mineral commitment and losses the map control the 10 pool gained making the 10 pool almost pointless for map control and just a way to possibly punish a CC first on the low ground.
Just my thoughts (and possibly Day9)
yes map control. and also a mind game: is the dong all inning me or not? However, But if you slip up once, and fail to surround the helions, You must remake the lings and lose out on needed drones. Its a risk. Some think it is worth it. some do not.
EDIT. Also, I was just musing, thinking of this thought process. Like, I find queen first a more interesting decision then fast gas.
I'm having some massive difficulties with Protoss recently, I feel the only build working against them is 10 Pool macro play. Just because FFE (Which they always scout with) and GE (Super safe against early pools) are so hard to beat unless you flip a coin and go for the counter to either one. I'm starting to wonder whether a fast lair play might work well, perhaps ling hydra since the DPS of the Hydra is huge and all tech they might have at the time I get the Hydras pumping would be countered by it (IE Stargate and Immortals, I don't count blink/charge because they won't have that when this hits)
Just for your entertainment: I played BuiBui's BO vs all T's and P's I encountered in the few games I found time for this weekend - and despite me being really rusty in 1v1, and sloppy execution, in these 5 or 6 games I managed to come out with a 100% win rate :-) In one game (Nexus first), I did quite a bit of initial damage, in the others only minimal; but there my opponents failed to believe I would be able to match their eco after my initial "cheese attempt" - I was either able to utterly crush their mid-game push, or outlast it with my reinforcements.
All in all, a lot of fun, thank you guys for your input/work on this!
On October 19 2013 03:07 Ephemera wrote: Sure thing, I will compile some more replays when I get them. I've only done one 10 Pool macro today it is far from my best and I made some silly mistakes but It shows how I usually transition even though I didn't do so perfectly, but it is against gate expand!
I start with 10 Pool macro (obviously) which forces a cancel on his nexus I heavily macro up and he goes for a 4 gate which I defend but with massive drone losses putting me behind but ahead on tech/upgrades. He tries to transition and I keep making units and hit a timing before any splash damage is out, I then just zerg him with my superior unit rebuild time. I win but only just.
I'm making some folders and compiling my games currently so will have a lot of replays for my guide/here.
watched the first game, and it was kinda weird. toss did a 1 gate expand but tried to take his nexus way before getting a msc. pretty weird. I'll check out the other game.
Also, expand on the difficulties against toss. I would think that 10p would be bad against everything not nexus first. if they gate expand the msc comes out and disables you from canceling the nexus, and then you're behind. if they FFE, the wall/cannon should be able to go up in time, and then you're behind. true?
This is my new account due to my name changing in-game.
10 Pool only puts your expansion behind 40 seconds against Protoss, your 10 Pool is pretty much an auto-win against Nexus first and will delay the expansion of them for at least 40 seconds assuming a perfect response with FFE. (Due to them having to put down building at the front before making the Nexus, the other option they've got is to make a pylon behind their mineral line and put a cannon there which delays their expansion for minutes) Against gateway expo assuming the standard Zealot MSC expand it delays it around 20 seconds with a perfect response I find the best way to delay against a gate expand is to split the lings into two groups one group of 4 to harass the mineral line/kite the zealot and the other two at the expansion to kill any probe trying to sneak out.
You're behind only slightly but not as far as you might think, the best follow up is always a timing attack usually with Hydralisk depending on what you scout, I'm starting to think that a 2 hatch Mutalisk play might be viable, it takes less drones to mine the gas you need for a health Mutalisk count than it does to mine enough for Hydralisk or Roaches.
It's not a case of you're behind and unless they make a mistake you will lose, it's a case of you didn't do the perfect build to what they did.
On October 21 2013 16:02 Metaspace wrote: Just for your entertainment: I played BuiBui's BO vs all T's and P's I encountered in the few games I found time for this weekend - and despite me being really rusty in 1v1, and sloppy execution, in these 5 or 6 games I managed to come out with a 100% win rate :-) In one game (Nexus first), I did quite a bit of initial damage, in the others only minimal; but there my opponents failed to believe I would be able to match their eco after my initial "cheese attempt" - I was either able to utterly crush their mid-game push, or outlast it with my reinforcements.
All in all, a lot of fun, thank you guys for your input/work on this!
haha! I am very happy that that build order worked for you ^_^ I still think upgraded roaches are the way to go for a follow up. (due to any counter all ins off 2 bases) Even though ling bling muta still works well In zvt.
I still mix in 10p on 4 player maps, or b03, or clan warz
That changes little to nothing, if not makes the situation worse. A pool first theoretically hold off all forms of 10 pool. In ZvZ you have two big options in regards to early pool, go all in or go for a "macro" play with the knowledge you are slightly behind if they went pool first.
You can see at a glance whether or not it's hatch first or pool first, Hatch first goes down at 2:10 15 Pool 15 Hatch goes down at 2:32 seconds.
The macro build is the 10 Pool play where you take a 15 Hatch after the three set of lings come out (Rally the drone at 190 minerals) and then transition into a +1 Roach timing or whatever you're most comfortable with.
The favoured all in build is 9 Pool baneling all in which I saw Savage do against DRG. The build goes 9 Pool then 10 Overlord followed by an extractor ASAP then Lings and baneling nest @50 gas. Savage kept two drones on gas I prefer to keep only 1 on gas which means 2 banelings instead of 4.
The one against pool first is a better example of how to execute the build and what to do against Pool first. One key point is the micro at 3:40, in which you see me hovering my lings around where the lings spawn from the larva to try and get some free lings. Ideally you want to morph the banes closer than I did but you don't want to morph them too close and have them sniped.
On October 27 2013 02:11 Ovid wrote: That changes little to nothing, if not makes the situation worse. A pool first theoretically hold off all forms of 10 pool. In ZvZ you have two big options in regards to early pool, go all in or go for a "macro" play with the knowledge you are slightly behind if they went pool first.
You can see at a glance whether or not it's hatch first or pool first, Hatch first goes down at 2:10 15 Pool 15 Hatch goes down at 2:32 seconds.
The macro build is the 10 Pool play where you take a 15 Hatch after the three set of lings come out (Rally the drone at 190 minerals) and then transition into a +1 Roach timing or whatever you're most comfortable with.
The favoured all in build is 9 Pool baneling all in which I saw Savage do against DRG. The build goes 9 Pool then 10 Overlord followed by an extractor ASAP then Lings and baneling nest @50 gas. Savage kept two drones on gas I prefer to keep only 1 on gas which means 2 banelings instead of 4.
The one against pool first is a better example of how to execute the build and what to do against Pool first. One key point is the micro at 3:40, in which you see me hovering my lings around where the lings spawn from the larva to try and get some free lings. Ideally you want to morph the banes closer than I did but you don't want to morph them too close and have them sniped.
What about 10 pool all-in with a drone pull? when people first started doing 10 pools in the GSL, they'd scout to see if the opponent had gone hatch first right when the pool was about to pop. if they had, all but ~2 drones would be pulled and they'd go attack with the 6 lings and 8 drones. if their opponent had not gone hatch first they'd build a pair of scouting lings and transition into a macro game, slightly behind. the all-in variant isn't as strong as 9/10 pool baneling, but it fares better against pool first.
I know Nestea used to do this build pretty frequently, I'll try to find a vod.
I've been doing 9 Pool - 11 Pool Drone pulls, I'm not a fan of them at all they're fine if your opponent plays poorly and engages straight up but the high masters I hit always just run the drones around and delay until they've got enough lings to overrun you. Which is game, I just feel it's flimsier. At least with 9-10 Pool baneling you can zone out the lings with the banelings and if they miss micro once or you micro perfectly you still have a good chance to win against Pool first since you can build drones after you scout it's not hatch first.
But if you could find a VOD that would be great since I'm sure Nestea knows something I don't :D
On October 31 2013 18:54 Ovid wrote: I've been doing 9 Pool - 11 Pool Drone pulls, I'm not a fan of them at all they're fine if your opponent plays poorly and engages straight up but the high masters I hit always just run the drones around and delay until they've got enough lings to overrun you. Which is game, I just feel it's flimsier. At least with 9-10 Pool baneling you can zone out the lings with the banelings and if they miss micro once or you micro perfectly you still have a good chance to win against Pool first since you can build drones after you scout it's not hatch first.
But if you could find a VOD that would be great since I'm sure Nestea knows something I don't :D
admittedly it's a very old build, might not be considered viable any more. I believe that particular 10 pool was one of the reasons people started doing 15 pools, instead of 15 hatch (sometimes). I'll find one tonight.
So here's an example (yes it's ollllllllddddd): http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65199 (game 2) There's no drone scout here, but I believe that sometimes a drone scout (to see if you are going to pull drones and go all-in or try to macro out) was incorporated.
Execution-wise, I would think that you put a spine down close enough to threaten his mineral line, so he has to engage your superior ling/drone army before he's got time to build up enough lings.
I guess my point is, if you're trying to play an early pool macro game, this build gives you the opportunity to do so, in a unique way. You don't HAVE to all-in with your drones against a hatch first, you can just try and play it out, as you will pretty much have to against a 15 pool.
I watched the replay thanks for the link, putting a spine down in their mineral line does, the best response is to transfer your drones to their base and build a spinecrawler there you then just keep building zerglings and making sure they don't die you will easily be able to mass up enough zerglings.
If they follow your drones with their units then you will easily be able to mass up enough zerglings. It used to work but the counter is so simple and easy to pull off that unless they went hatch first and straight up engage you will lose, and even then it can be close.
I was thinking about pulling drones with a 9 Pool baneling though all you need is 4-6 drones 6 drones if I want constant zergling and baneling production 4 if I just want zerglings.
On October 19 2013 03:07 Ephemera wrote: Sure thing, I will compile some more replays when I get them. I've only done one 10 Pool macro today it is far from my best and I made some silly mistakes but It shows how I usually transition even though I didn't do so perfectly, but it is against gate expand!
I start with 10 Pool macro (obviously) which forces a cancel on his nexus I heavily macro up and he goes for a 4 gate which I defend but with massive drone losses putting me behind but ahead on tech/upgrades. He tries to transition and I keep making units and hit a timing before any splash damage is out, I then just zerg him with my superior unit rebuild time. I win but only just.
I'm making some folders and compiling my games currently so will have a lot of replays for my guide/here.
watched the first game, and it was kinda weird. toss did a 1 gate expand but tried to take his nexus way before getting a msc. pretty weird. I'll check out the other game.
Also, expand on the difficulties against toss. I would think that 10p would be bad against everything not nexus first. if they gate expand the msc comes out and disables you from canceling the nexus, and then you're behind. if they FFE, the wall/cannon should be able to go up in time, and then you're behind. true?
tried this out extensively and when it's NOT down to BO poker (i.e. both players get off successful scouts) the real factor becomes the ramp at the natural.
if it's an akilon style wall vs ffe, you come out roughly even. if it's a CK style wall, meaning 3 gateway or equivalent, then you should probably just surrender assuming your opponent makes no mistakes.
the difference, i believe, is something like 100 to 200 minerals that could have gone into a faster nexus. that's a lot.
On October 03 2013 21:41 BuiBui wrote: You can get into masters going 9-10 pool vs every race. assuming you know how to macro out of it. and be able to micro your lings and expand. For example: zvt vs cc/rax rax/cc first
queen 23ov queen 31-32ov 44ov 44 double gas 42third base 52 roach warren/ov 60 evo wall off double ov (make 4 roaches for map control, to allow droning of third vs helions) take 3-4 gas (third should be mostly saturated) get 1/1 macro hatch, 4th base, react.
just tested, it did not work. In pro games, early pools are done because you know your opponent, and he actually cares about a game.
Saumure, upload the replay so we can see then? Early pools work, even more so that build. It's a staple for Life, Jaedong will often use a 10 Pool macro play in a BO5.
On October 19 2013 03:07 Ephemera wrote: Sure thing, I will compile some more replays when I get them. I've only done one 10 Pool macro today it is far from my best and I made some silly mistakes but It shows how I usually transition even though I didn't do so perfectly, but it is against gate expand!
I start with 10 Pool macro (obviously) which forces a cancel on his nexus I heavily macro up and he goes for a 4 gate which I defend but with massive drone losses putting me behind but ahead on tech/upgrades. He tries to transition and I keep making units and hit a timing before any splash damage is out, I then just zerg him with my superior unit rebuild time. I win but only just.
I'm making some folders and compiling my games currently so will have a lot of replays for my guide/here.
watched the first game, and it was kinda weird. toss did a 1 gate expand but tried to take his nexus way before getting a msc. pretty weird. I'll check out the other game.
Also, expand on the difficulties against toss. I would think that 10p would be bad against everything not nexus first. if they gate expand the msc comes out and disables you from canceling the nexus, and then you're behind. if they FFE, the wall/cannon should be able to go up in time, and then you're behind. true?
tried this out extensively and when it's NOT down to BO poker (i.e. both players get off successful scouts) the real factor becomes the ramp at the natural.
if it's an akilon style wall vs ffe, you come out roughly even. if it's a CK style wall, meaning 3 gateway or equivalent, then you should probably just surrender assuming your opponent makes no mistakes.
the difference, i believe, is something like 100 to 200 minerals that could have gone into a faster nexus. that's a lot.
Yeah, agreed. if they need to build more than a forge and two gateways to wall they're going to be stuck at ~14 probes for a long time, and you can catch up pretty easily. however, if they gate expand, you're going to be behind, as there's basically no way to do damage (if they micro probes correctly). Knowing that toss knows this, you can guess that they're going to gate expand, and you could respond with an appropriate build (hatch first, maybe 3 hatch before pool) on the appropriate maps.
In BW, I had a Thread and kept a playlist on YT of all the 4 & 5 pools in pro games. The stats on them were surprisingly high success rate, and you could see other important stats about what happened in different matchups; if the game went to the late game or what build was used specifically in each matchup. Early pools in sc2 don't seem to be as prevalent in pro matches, can anyone provide a list/video/reps of pro games so I can attempt to duplicate that thread?
edit- 4-5 (ironic) of the videos there have been deleted.. And I stopped recording when sc2 beta came around. maybe I should DL and reupload all of those too and make a SC/SC2 Rush channel to just store all that data for posterity. If anyone has links info on games please send.
Sounds like an interesting idea/plan but the statistics are slightly slanted due to the meta gaming play of 6 pools in BO3+ games. But accruing a mass of early pool plays would be helpful to everyone. Once I've found enough replays to warrant opening a thread dedicated to guiding people on Early pools rather than just a discussion thread.
But as I earlier stated I will only do so once I get masters so I feel qualified enough(ish) to hand out advice.
If anyone has got early pool replays or VODs from pro games could you please either post them here or PM me. Thanks.
Blizzcon just went past, and there was two early pools
One by Soulkey against Naniwa and one with Jaedong against MVP, both of which are won games. The one with Soulkey shows the perfect transition method in ZvP from an early pool. It's the WCS Global Finals RO16 VOD at 04:58:40 battle.net/blizzcon/en/live-stream/
And the same VOD at 6:38:58 for the Jaedong game.
Both of which are very interesting games and both are prime examples of how to execute an early pool perfectly.
It's interesting to note that JD had a very specific plan against a reaper opening, which was to go out of the scout path (easily facilitated by split in the middle of Akilon Wastes and wait for the reaper to leave for his base before bringing the lings into the base.
I think I've cracked my ZvP since this season I'm now 83% win ratio, I just need a good transition in ZvT. Still would be nice to have advice about my ZvP though.
I know I didn't scout with my overlords, I'm working on remembering!
I feel I will open up with a 9 pool with scout, to do the above mentioned tactic since Jaedongs lings were there too early and waited I feel his build was slightly less efficient than a 9 pool.
It's just the transition, I feel like I can't roach bane because due to the volatile nature of my opener they will be looking for that. But I'm unsure how I want to transition, I don't like Ling/Baneling Mutalisk, not for micro reasons but because I just dislike the play style because it feels like headbutting each other to the death. Both sides will be bruised and battered but it all depends on who gets the final last strike.
So I would prefer to do a timing attack, something zany. So my choices are Hyun style, or Catz style or perhaps something of my own concoction.
I was just wondering what other styles do you guys use instead of Muta ling bane.
Like a few people said, going 10 pool vs every race will get you to masters pretty easily if you can follow it up. Most people below masters are mentally challenged anyways, so even if you end up behind, with good mechanics and ez win is possible.
EPT
