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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
I'm starting to wonder whether a fast lair play might work well, perhaps ling hydra since the DPS of the Hydra is huge and all tech they might have at the time I get the Hydras pumping would be countered by it (IE Stargate and Immortals, I don't count blink/charge because they won't have that when this hits) Any thoughts on fast hydralisks? | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
In one game (Nexus first), I did quite a bit of initial damage, in the others only minimal; but there my opponents failed to believe I would be able to match their eco after my initial "cheese attempt" - I was either able to utterly crush their mid-game push, or outlast it with my reinforcements. All in all, a lot of fun, thank you guys for your input/work on this! | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
Did anyone else here watch WCS America Season 3 Semi-Finals match with Jaedong and Byul? All of the games included early pools, I am currently on my phone but when I get to a computer I will find the VODs and if I can replays. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On October 19 2013 03:07 Ephemera wrote: Sure thing, I will compile some more replays when I get them. I've only done one 10 Pool macro today it is far from my best and I made some silly mistakes but It shows how I usually transition even though I didn't do so perfectly, but it is against gate expand! http://ggtracker.com/matches/4234684 Rough overview of the game + Show Spoiler + I start with 10 Pool macro (obviously) which forces a cancel on his nexus I heavily macro up and he goes for a 4 gate which I defend but with massive drone losses putting me behind but ahead on tech/upgrades. He tries to transition and I keep making units and hit a timing before any splash damage is out, I then just zerg him with my superior unit rebuild time. I win but only just. I'm making some folders and compiling my games currently so will have a lot of replays for my guide/here. watched the first game, and it was kinda weird. toss did a 1 gate expand but tried to take his nexus way before getting a msc. pretty weird. I'll check out the other game. Also, expand on the difficulties against toss. I would think that 10p would be bad against everything not nexus first. if they gate expand the msc comes out and disables you from canceling the nexus, and then you're behind. if they FFE, the wall/cannon should be able to go up in time, and then you're behind. true? | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
10 Pool only puts your expansion behind 40 seconds against Protoss, your 10 Pool is pretty much an auto-win against Nexus first and will delay the expansion of them for at least 40 seconds assuming a perfect response with FFE. (Due to them having to put down building at the front before making the Nexus, the other option they've got is to make a pylon behind their mineral line and put a cannon there which delays their expansion for minutes) Against gateway expo assuming the standard Zealot MSC expand it delays it around 20 seconds with a perfect response I find the best way to delay against a gate expand is to split the lings into two groups one group of 4 to harass the mineral line/kite the zealot and the other two at the expansion to kill any probe trying to sneak out. You're behind only slightly but not as far as you might think, the best follow up is always a timing attack usually with Hydralisk depending on what you scout, I'm starting to think that a 2 hatch Mutalisk play might be viable, it takes less drones to mine the gas you need for a health Mutalisk count than it does to mine enough for Hydralisk or Roaches. It's not a case of you're behind and unless they make a mistake you will lose, it's a case of you didn't do the perfect build to what they did. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On October 21 2013 16:02 Metaspace wrote: Just for your entertainment: I played BuiBui's BO vs all T's and P's I encountered in the few games I found time for this weekend - and despite me being really rusty in 1v1, and sloppy execution, in these 5 or 6 games I managed to come out with a 100% win rate :-) In one game (Nexus first), I did quite a bit of initial damage, in the others only minimal; but there my opponents failed to believe I would be able to match their eco after my initial "cheese attempt" - I was either able to utterly crush their mid-game push, or outlast it with my reinforcements. All in all, a lot of fun, thank you guys for your input/work on this! haha! I am very happy that that build order worked for you ^_^ I still think upgraded roaches are the way to go for a follow up. (due to any counter all ins off 2 bases) Even though ling bling muta still works well In zvt. I still mix in 10p on 4 player maps, or b03, or clan warz I am rank 1 masters na, and rank2 on eu atm. | ||
phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
A pool first theoretically hold off all forms of 10 pool. In ZvZ you have two big options in regards to early pool, go all in or go for a "macro" play with the knowledge you are slightly behind if they went pool first. You can see at a glance whether or not it's hatch first or pool first, Hatch first goes down at 2:10 15 Pool 15 Hatch goes down at 2:32 seconds. The macro build is the 10 Pool play where you take a 15 Hatch after the three set of lings come out (Rally the drone at 190 minerals) and then transition into a +1 Roach timing or whatever you're most comfortable with. The favoured all in build is 9 Pool baneling all in which I saw Savage do against DRG. The build goes 9 Pool then 10 Overlord followed by an extractor ASAP then Lings and baneling nest @50 gas. Savage kept two drones on gas I prefer to keep only 1 on gas which means 2 banelings instead of 4. Is the game. Here's a replay of mine doing the build against hatch first. (First time trying the build) http://ggtracker.com/matches/4273278 Here's another against a Pool first. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4273346 The one against pool first is a better example of how to execute the build and what to do against Pool first. One key point is the micro at 3:40, in which you see me hovering my lings around where the lings spawn from the larva to try and get some free lings. Ideally you want to morph the banes closer than I did but you don't want to morph them too close and have them sniped. | ||
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phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On October 27 2013 02:11 Ovid wrote: That changes little to nothing, if not makes the situation worse. A pool first theoretically hold off all forms of 10 pool. In ZvZ you have two big options in regards to early pool, go all in or go for a "macro" play with the knowledge you are slightly behind if they went pool first. You can see at a glance whether or not it's hatch first or pool first, Hatch first goes down at 2:10 15 Pool 15 Hatch goes down at 2:32 seconds. The macro build is the 10 Pool play where you take a 15 Hatch after the three set of lings come out (Rally the drone at 190 minerals) and then transition into a +1 Roach timing or whatever you're most comfortable with. The favoured all in build is 9 Pool baneling all in which I saw Savage do against DRG. The build goes 9 Pool then 10 Overlord followed by an extractor ASAP then Lings and baneling nest @50 gas. Savage kept two drones on gas I prefer to keep only 1 on gas which means 2 banelings instead of 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJQYSwmUCqs Is the game. Here's a replay of mine doing the build against hatch first. (First time trying the build) http://ggtracker.com/matches/4273278 Here's another against a Pool first. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4273346 The one against pool first is a better example of how to execute the build and what to do against Pool first. One key point is the micro at 3:40, in which you see me hovering my lings around where the lings spawn from the larva to try and get some free lings. Ideally you want to morph the banes closer than I did but you don't want to morph them too close and have them sniped. What about 10 pool all-in with a drone pull? when people first started doing 10 pools in the GSL, they'd scout to see if the opponent had gone hatch first right when the pool was about to pop. if they had, all but ~2 drones would be pulled and they'd go attack with the 6 lings and 8 drones. if their opponent had not gone hatch first they'd build a pair of scouting lings and transition into a macro game, slightly behind. the all-in variant isn't as strong as 9/10 pool baneling, but it fares better against pool first. I know Nestea used to do this build pretty frequently, I'll try to find a vod. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
At least with 9-10 Pool baneling you can zone out the lings with the banelings and if they miss micro once or you micro perfectly you still have a good chance to win against Pool first since you can build drones after you scout it's not hatch first. But if you could find a VOD that would be great since I'm sure Nestea knows something I don't :D | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On October 31 2013 18:54 Ovid wrote: admittedly it's a very old build, might not be considered viable any more. I believe that particular 10 pool was one of the reasons people started doing 15 pools, instead of 15 hatch (sometimes). I'll find one tonight.I've been doing 9 Pool - 11 Pool Drone pulls, I'm not a fan of them at all they're fine if your opponent plays poorly and engages straight up but the high masters I hit always just run the drones around and delay until they've got enough lings to overrun you. Which is game, I just feel it's flimsier. At least with 9-10 Pool baneling you can zone out the lings with the banelings and if they miss micro once or you micro perfectly you still have a good chance to win against Pool first since you can build drones after you scout it's not hatch first. But if you could find a VOD that would be great since I'm sure Nestea knows something I don't :D | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65199 (game 2) There's no drone scout here, but I believe that sometimes a drone scout (to see if you are going to pull drones and go all-in or try to macro out) was incorporated. Execution-wise, I would think that you put a spine down close enough to threaten his mineral line, so he has to engage your superior ling/drone army before he's got time to build up enough lings. I guess my point is, if you're trying to play an early pool macro game, this build gives you the opportunity to do so, in a unique way. You don't HAVE to all-in with your drones against a hatch first, you can just try and play it out, as you will pretty much have to against a 15 pool. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
If they follow your drones with their units then you will easily be able to mass up enough zerglings. It used to work but the counter is so simple and easy to pull off that unless they went hatch first and straight up engage you will lose, and even then it can be close. I was thinking about pulling drones with a 9 Pool baneling though all you need is 4-6 drones 6 drones if I want constant zergling and baneling production 4 if I just want zerglings. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On October 25 2013 06:46 Lobotomist wrote: watched the first game, and it was kinda weird. toss did a 1 gate expand but tried to take his nexus way before getting a msc. pretty weird. I'll check out the other game. Also, expand on the difficulties against toss. I would think that 10p would be bad against everything not nexus first. if they gate expand the msc comes out and disables you from canceling the nexus, and then you're behind. if they FFE, the wall/cannon should be able to go up in time, and then you're behind. true? tried this out extensively and when it's NOT down to BO poker (i.e. both players get off successful scouts) the real factor becomes the ramp at the natural. if it's an akilon style wall vs ffe, you come out roughly even. if it's a CK style wall, meaning 3 gateway or equivalent, then you should probably just surrender assuming your opponent makes no mistakes. the difference, i believe, is something like 100 to 200 minerals that could have gone into a faster nexus. that's a lot. | ||
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Saumure
France404 Posts
On October 03 2013 21:41 BuiBui wrote: You can get into masters going 9-10 pool vs every race. assuming you know how to macro out of it. and be able to micro your lings and expand. For example: zvt vs cc/rax rax/cc first 10p double ext trick, 12/10 ov 3 2x lings 17 hatch 16queen 18ov queen 23ov queen 31-32ov 44ov 44 double gas 42third base 52 roach warren/ov 60 evo wall off double ov (make 4 roaches for map control, to allow droning of third vs helions) take 3-4 gas (third should be mostly saturated) get 1/1 macro hatch, 4th base, react. just tested, it did not work. In pro games, early pools are done because you know your opponent, and he actually cares about a game. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
Early pools work, even more so that build. It's a staple for Life, Jaedong will often use a 10 Pool macro play in a BO5. The build isn't the problem it's most likely you. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On November 01 2013 21:25 shadymmj wrote: Yeah, agreed. if they need to build more than a forge and two gateways to wall they're going to be stuck at ~14 probes for a long time, and you can catch up pretty easily. however, if they gate expand, you're going to be behind, as there's basically no way to do damage (if they micro probes correctly). Knowing that toss knows this, you can guess that they're going to gate expand, and you could respond with an appropriate build (hatch first, maybe 3 hatch before pool) on the appropriate maps.tried this out extensively and when it's NOT down to BO poker (i.e. both players get off successful scouts) the real factor becomes the ramp at the natural. if it's an akilon style wall vs ffe, you come out roughly even. if it's a CK style wall, meaning 3 gateway or equivalent, then you should probably just surrender assuming your opponent makes no mistakes. the difference, i believe, is something like 100 to 200 minerals that could have gone into a faster nexus. that's a lot. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2065 Posts
edit- 4-5 (ironic) of the videos there have been deleted.. And I stopped recording when sc2 beta came around. maybe I should DL and reupload all of those too and make a SC/SC2 Rush channel to just store all that data for posterity. If anyone has links info on games please send. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
But accruing a mass of early pool plays would be helpful to everyone. Once I've found enough replays to warrant opening a thread dedicated to guiding people on Early pools rather than just a discussion thread. But as I earlier stated I will only do so once I get masters so I feel qualified enough(ish) to hand out advice. If anyone has got early pool replays or VODs from pro games could you please either post them here or PM me. Thanks. | ||
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