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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
I was watching a Day9 daily about forcing certain tech paths and certain choices and I think I may have hit onto a possible build that might work. I don't understand why there's such a deep and ingrained hatred of non macro play. It just is disapproved as if you're worse at the game and you don't deserve the league you're in. Cheesing in higher leagues takes a lot of skill it's picking the right build for the situation and then picking the right transition assuming it is transitional. | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 09 2013 05:42 Ephemera wrote: Thank you for kind words of encouragement velvex, I'm currently watching all the replays of TvZ openers I can find and probing them for a weak spot against early pools or transitions that are possible from early pools. I was watching a Day9 daily about forcing certain tech paths and certain choices and I think I may have hit onto a possible build that might work. I don't understand why there's such a deep and ingrained hatred of non macro play. It just is disapproved as if you're worse at the game and you don't deserve the league you're in. Cheesing in higher leagues takes a lot of skill it's picking the right build for the situation and then picking the right transition assuming it is transitional. I'd blame iloveoov and Nal-RA for starting the trend of Macro > All You don't get the nickname of "cheater terran" for nothing. FYI Boxer won an OSL by doing 3 bunker rushes in a row to the roar of thousands of fans. JulyZerg also 6pooled like a champion many times. Its not that cheesy play has always been despised, its that at some point Macro play (In BW) became the epitome of skill in the game. That was transferred over to SC2. I still miss the PvP matches of old where it was a 4gate every game. That was when MC had an almost 90% winrate since he was the only one with the micro to actually win PvP consistently. It was an intense micro war that sometimes only ended when players ran out of minerals at the main. However, since it was not a 3base push, it was ridiculed as "bad." Saying that, fuck BW ZvZ and its Ling/Muta/Scouurge  Well, fuck my poor scourge micro  | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
This is a 10p vs a cc first play. I will note that I messed up and got melee and range grades. oops. but still won. http://drop.sc/361760 This is vs reaper first. I catch the first reaper, very lucky. But I dont feel like it would have mattered that much. http://drop.sc/361761 EDIT: Note I still think hatch first is better. But I would def do this in a b03 situation | ||
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NoSoldier
Germany84 Posts
I do however believe, that "early game knowledge" dependant on early pool openings will not help you as much improving your play and moving up in skill, than e.g. macrooriented styles would. Reason behind this being, that idealy these attacks are bound to not outright murder your opponent with the first attack. Therefor you will be relying on more than this one attack to end the game and since through that early uneconomic opening you are at least "slightly behind" in terms of income, or in general your development you will most likely not be able to pull off an immediate followup "all in", e.g. banelingbusts/roachallin from the position you are at after that early pool and win straight away. These pushes however are able to put your opponent in an uncomfortable position, in which their usual "timings" arent of any value anymore, as everything gets delayed by a significant enough amount of time, for them to feel "off rhythm", which as i think beautifully illustrated with the games provided from BuiBui. Yet wins like this are not possible without the mechanics to pull them off (to an certain extend basic understanding of the opposing race and possibilities). I do believe that the required mechanics (Injects, Multitasking units + Macro) overweighs that "early game knowledge" gained in these type of games, because at the end of the day people are either gonna be aggressive or outright passive in several ways. I feel like im missing my point, but im too tired to nail it, even though this time i feel calm and dont have the urge to be agressive for no reason at all. :D Go with this! | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On October 09 2013 12:41 NoSoldier wrote: For the record: I think i never just disagreed an "early pool"/"earlier attack than usual that has to deal some damage to be equal" CAN NOT work or has no viable use in some situations, be that certain builds you are most likely to encounter, or BO-(X*2)-1 situations. If i remember correctly i even said that early pools are very good for tournament games, when you are trying to win and do dem mindgames. I do however believe, that "early game knowledge" dependant on early pool openings will not help you as much improving your play and moving up in skill, than e.g. macrooriented styles would. Reason behind this being, that idealy these attacks are bound to not outright murder your opponent with the first attack. Therefor you will be relying on more than this one attack to end the game and since through that early uneconomic opening you are at least "slightly behind" in terms of income, or in general your development you will most likely not be able to pull off an immediate followup "all in", e.g. banelingbusts/roachallin from the position you are at after that early pool and win straight away. These pushes however are able to put your opponent in an uncomfortable position, in which their usual "timings" arent of any value anymore, as everything gets delayed by a significant enough amount of time, for them to feel "off rhythm", which as i think beautifully illustrated with the games provided from BuiBui. Yet wins like this are not possible without the mechanics to pull them off (to an certain extend basic understanding of the opposing race and possibilities). I do believe that the required mechanics (Injects, Multitasking units + Macro) overweighs that "early game knowledge" gained in these type of games, because at the end of the day people are either gonna be aggressive or outright passive in several ways. I feel like im missing my point, but im too tired to nail it, even though this time i feel calm and dont have the urge to be agressive for no reason at all. :D Go with this! EDIT. thanks mate. I agree with you 100%. when you know basics and the standard meta game builds/strats. You can make something that looks like cheese. into a fake out and do a standard game. Because I know my hatch first, gasless 4 queen build very well. I was able to bridge the gap between 10p and 4queen build. because I know the timings so well. E.G. the best Ov, gas, and inject timings. in addition, I can only afford 3 queens, or I would not be larve efficient and not be able to get my third base and gas in time. and finally, getting the hatch before my first queen actually gives better eco by the 6 min range, even tho going 15queen after 10p is better in the early game. (useful info if you are being proxy 2 raxed) EDIT EDIT Summery: I think we both agree that early pool is viable if you know the game very well. all the builds. strats. plays. | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
Still i can't see how hatch first against 10p makes it any better for learning mechanics. 10p will most likely not kill your opponent so you will have to macro after that and i would argue its even better for learning mechanics as you have to compensate for being possibly being behind with better mechanics or knowledge. In this case your most likely being active with lings and macroing at same time. Other thing i could argue with is that if you just get easy win with it that may mean that you will get better opponents that will get you better training. Its just that there is nothing magical about hatch first that makes you better player. If you open 10p and go for macro game after it is by no mean worse for learning than opening hatch first. | ||
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NoSoldier
Germany84 Posts
Should i get speed? Do i want lings or roaches? (usually lings :D) And im just droning like an idiot all the time, keeping my injects and my creepspread up and running trying to find out what my opponents goals are, how he expands and thinking of how i can abuse this with the high amount of money i have. I am also in a certain extent abuseing the scouting information i give them e.g. showing tech and not using it, making them in the best case scenario overbuilding e.g. turrets, or vikings. And i try to play a mapawareness oriented multipronged aggression style by just sending some units at different places at once, buying me time to get whatever i want or need and slowly chipping away the economic strength my opponent has. I rarely ever do "all in ish" plays, even though i have that on my to do list. I am still developing my average game understanding, trying to be judging the correct "long term" answer every single time. Im not even using swarmhosts and rarely vipers and infestors, because i just feel uncomfortable using them. (Another thing on my to do list :D) If that is of any help. :D | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
On October 09 2013 13:28 NoSoldier wrote: Just to give an example for this macro oriented way of playing: Myself... im currently around 1300ish points masters on NA Ladder with about 90 Games played with Zerg. I dont really have any build except for hatch first or pool first. In ZvZ this goes up to baneling nest, but its like first 100 gas speed next 50 baneling nest, switch around if aggression early. From here i go totally intuitive how i feel i should answer to my opponents ability to have stuff. Should i get speed? Do i want lings or roaches? (usually lings :D) And im just droning like an idiot all the time, keeping my injects and my creepspread up and running trying to find out what my opponents goals are, how he expands and thinking of how i can abuse this with the high amount of money i have. I am also in a certain extent abuseing the scouting information i give them e.g. showing tech and not using it, making them in the best case scenario overbuilding e.g. turrets, or vikings. And i try to play a mapawareness oriented multipronged aggression style by just sending some units at different places at once, buying me time to get whatever i want or need and slowly chipping away the economic strength my opponent has. I rarely ever do "all in ish" plays, even though i have that on my to do list. I am still developing my average game understanding, trying to be judging the correct "long term" answer every single time. Im not even using swarmhosts and rarely vipers and infestors, because i just feel uncomfortable using them. (Another thing on my to do list :D) If that is of any help. :D You mostly list tactical good aggro plays that you can pretty much do with every build including 10 pool. 10 pool may limit some of options you have with hatch first, but you can't get everything. In lot of pros games you see them opening differently or doing some difference in the build just to get back to same end goal. You can do just the same with 10 pool, but the road changes (some times not even that much). If your good with 10 pool into macro game, you will be good with hatch first. You just have to train it as well, but the basics are same so its not that hard. If your just playing ladder it does not matter which one you use, if you just keep refining your play you will win games. In the ladder there are reasons to use 10 pool 1. you get easy fast wins so you get better opponents faster 2. For some people it may be more fun. Then on CW or tournament if your good with 10 pool it can be realy great morale boost. Even if you lose you can blame it on disadvantage you got from opening. | ||
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NoSoldier
Germany84 Posts
People will be too confused to macro properly behind a 10 pool. Hell even i that i practised that jazz am at times really horrible at executing that. I love pulling this card anyway: Which league are you in Coconut? | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
I'm am not saying 10 pool is better, but just saying its clearly inferior in learning in my opinion is just wrong. We may have to agree to disagree on the matter, but i think it does not matter that much what you do as long as you make sure your doing it "perfectly". There is lot of ways of improving. There is nothing wrong with just learning 1 all in "perfectly" then learning another all in "perfectly" and so on. Now we have player that can beat gm players ones in while and take series with some luck, later we may have new MVP who just seems to have build for everything. This is by no means less valid than being mechanical beast like innovation, its just different way of reaching same goal that is winning. | ||
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On October 09 2013 10:48 BuiBui wrote: These are my last two games I played today. I did not cherry pick the "best" ones" In fact, I have not even watched the replays yet. Both are vs terrans with 1300 - 1400 points I believe. This is a 10p vs a cc first play. I will note that I messed up and got melee and range grades. oops. but still won. http://drop.sc/361760 This is vs reaper first. I catch the first reaper, very lucky. But I dont feel like it would have mattered that much. http://drop.sc/361761 EDIT: Note I still think hatch first is better. But I would def do this in a b03 situation | ||
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
I have currently been theorycrafting a build and have used it in some games to decent success. ZvT from my point of view is a match up I dread, it limits the options I have and almost always forces me to 10 Pool macro, unless I wish to roll the dice and 6 Pool or go for the Dimaga fast 6 Banelings and hope they don't scout for ages/make one bunker or rewall. So naturally I've been focused on working out a viable way to early pool and get things done. Some facts, it takes 7 Marines to kill one spine crawler and 12 Marines for two and 16 Marines for three. (All with Target fire) With the build I theorise you can have 3 Spines at the enemy base by 4mins. If the opponent has done CC first they will have 1 Marine at this point. Due to the time it takes for the marine count to take the spine crawlers on there's only 2 options for stopping the attack, tanks or air units. With a barrack first and a quick gas the fastest a tank can be out is around the 5:15 mark. That's a whole minute of time when they can't contest or stop your attack. So that gives a nice attack window. Assuming the perfect and fastest counter to this build they will have 5 marines 22 SCV and 1 Siege Tank by 5:30. Another counter is the reaper for obvious reasons. In a standard reaper build they will put down gas around 2:00 meaning a 1:15 Drone scout timing to be able to abort this build and go into 10 Pool macro. The key part is that the spine crawlers will break down a wall the only thing that stands in the way of an early pool. It takes 4 Spine crawlers to out DPS 3-4 SCVs repairing, but due to the positioning of the spine crawlers SCVs can be killed by the spines. During this 1min time window 42 SCVs can be killed if they are in range of the spine crawlers making repairing out of the question and a 4th spine crawler not necessary. So now we have established that you will crack the wall what is the best unit composition to be able to make best use of that? Ideally you'd want roaches with burrow or mutalisks since the spine crawlers are there to crack the wall rather than participate in the fight. A banshee is possible by around 6:30 so Mutalisks may not be needed if you can effectively exploit the timing. So far the build involves: 10 Extractor 10 Pool Extractor trick 11 Overlord @100% Pool Lair. The finer points of when I can drone are still being worked out since this is only just been even partly thought out. I will have lings out in time to defend from and barracks first marine trying to stop my overlord dropping creep. As I said I think I want to add a scout into this build for the simple fact of being able to abort this build if I see gas early because reapers would ruin my drone ling and would stop the spines from going up since the lings can't catch them. Anyway please tell me what you think of the theory. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
Even so there's a fast speed into baneling bust build which uses a fast baneling build, which could still beat your build. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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Ephemera
United Kingdom66 Posts
If you made 2 reapers and you didn't spot me on the first spot in a 4 player map then it would be game over with that build of yours. But yes in theory your build should set you up fine vs early pools but 10 pool macro will only put the zerg at a slight disadvantage rather than a game ending one. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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NoSoldier
Germany84 Posts
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