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On September 13 2013 15:48 klup wrote:Show nested quote +You should be going bio/mine not bio/tanks. bio/tank isn't very good, bio/mine is way stronger, easier to use and a lot more mobile. I think mines are preferred over tanks because no matter what zergs will have at some point some mutas... And since the hots buff mutas are really really good so you can't invest your 'tech' unit into something that cannot kill muta.
bio/tank is.....different. Biotank is more timings push/deathball oriented where biomine is mini pushes to widdle the zergie down.
Biomine is better imo. 99% of all masters agree.
Edit: Is it just me or is the font of the thread main post too big? If so It should be scaled down.
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very nice guide bro, a very good guideline
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What a guide! Really good job...
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Thank you very much for the extensive guide. I love the fact you provided so many source VODs. Excellent write-up!
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There will be a small update in the near future in the form of a FAQ.
Here is a small preview:
Question 1:Innovation does his transition to the mid game slightly differently than what is listed in this guide. What is the build order for that and what should I know about it?Credit for this question goes to U_G_L_Y of www.teamliquid.netAnswer: Innovation does a standard opening (he does both the Reaper FE and the CC Rax Gas). Upon confirmation of a macro play out of the Zerg (his hellions scout a third hatchery, no suspicious gas activity that isn't accounted for, normal unit counts, etc) he will do the following after completing his first six hellions and before any mine production: Lift factory
Reactor at factory & barracks at old reactor & barracks near new factory location
(The factory will lift when it is done making this reactor and the barracks built nearby will take the reactor)
2x engineering bay (start +1/+1 asap)
2x refinery
@start of +1/+1: starport and lift factory to start another reactor that will be used by this starport
2x barracks
@stim done: combat shields
@30%-50% of +1/+1: armory
@~12:00: factory (tech lab asap for mine upgrade)
3x barracks Innovation's transition is a very optimized variation on the standard and has the goal of having the most possible units in a useful combination ready to go when all of the upgrades kick in. It relies on good scouting information to confirm that no early game or early mid game attack from the Zerg will be used to try and end things prematurely as it has less production during a short window in order to have more production shortly afterwards. When +1/+1, stim, and combat shields are done you should have at least 16 marines and two medivacs. This force is powerful, well upgraded, mobile, and safe. This allows Innovation the luxury of being aggressive on creep (usually to kill tumors) and safely load up and boost out at the first sign of a fight. In a straight up macro game, this is the preferred modern version of the transition into 4M out of a fast expand opening.
I have already selected several questions from this thread that will be answered in the FAQ but please feel free to post questions now to give me more ammo!
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I was having problems getting the Medivacs out in time for the 11:30 benchmarks. Turns out I was starting Marauders too early and spending too much on some extra Widow Mines. I found out by modelling the build in sc2planner. Maybe it's useful for someone else too:
SC2Planner - 4M - Reaper FE, Reactor Helions, 3rd CC
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On October 06 2013 06:24 BugRoger wrote:I was having problems getting the Medivacs out in time for the 11:30 benchmarks. Turns out I was starting Marauders too early and spending too much on some extra Widow Mines. I found out by modelling the build in sc2planner. Maybe it's useful for someone else too: SC2Planner - 4M - Reaper FE, Reactor Helions, 3rd CC
The modern trends are to forgo marauders unless you feel they are needed in response to some kind of aggression from the Zerg that hits before you have medivacs and +1/+1. The same is true for mines. The post above yours that previews the soon to be finished FAQ for the guide outlines the most modern version of the build order which uses the factory to make reactors for barracks and starport once the first 6 hellions are done. With that version of the build, it is very easy to have 16 marines, stim, combat shields, and 2 medivacs by the 11:30 benchmark and you should be able to hit 130+ food if you opened CC first and suffered no setbacks.
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Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately.
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On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote:
Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately.
Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm).
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On October 18 2013 12:42 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote:
Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately. Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm).
I've seen thors added to a lot of 4M games where zerg goes for upwards of 30 mutas, but the most interesting use I can remember is Hyvaa vs. Gumiho in the most recent GSTL match, where Gumiho made somewhere around 7 thors in combination with MMM (no mines) when Hyvaa transitioned into an ultra-based army.
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On October 18 2013 14:30 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 12:42 vaderseven wrote:On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote:
Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately. Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm). I've seen thors added to a lot of 4M games where zerg goes for upwards of 30 mutas, but the most interesting use I can remember is Hyvaa vs. Gumiho in the most recent GSTL match, where Gumiho made somewhere around 7 thors in combination with MMM (no mines) when Hyvaa transitioned into an ultra-based army.
I will look into it but in that game in particular it bears mentioning that was not a 4M game, not a 4M transition and not a 4M game plan for later stages.
But if there is 4M games with thors im looking into it asap!
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I have a question re something that I don't think is adequately dealt with in the (otherwise excellent) guide. What is the correct response to a zerg that goes pool before hatch and takes gas (zerg could even go gas/pool/hatch in that order)? Especially if you open CC first (high ground or low ground) the issue is that, even if you scout with the SCV that makes the first supply depot, you are floating nearly 400 minerals by the time you see no hatch. ie you can't really decide not to go CC first at this point, you have to stick with it even though it can get quite hairy.
You don't know whether he's going speedlings/banelings/roaches. So a decision is needed about where you build the bunker. Is it correct to build it on the low ground (say close to the ramp between the main & natural); or do you build it at the entrance to your main (and presumably lift the 2nd CC back into your main somewhere)? I think I'm right in saying that you can have about 6 roaches turning up at around 5.50... at which point you could have 2 marines in a bunker and not much more... I could probably dig out a few replays if necessary but I wondered whether there was a "correct" response eg just turtle in your main with a bunker at the entrance....
Simon
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On October 18 2013 15:24 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 14:30 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On October 18 2013 12:42 vaderseven wrote:On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote:
Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately. Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm). I've seen thors added to a lot of 4M games where zerg goes for upwards of 30 mutas, but the most interesting use I can remember is Hyvaa vs. Gumiho in the most recent GSTL match, where Gumiho made somewhere around 7 thors in combination with MMM (no mines) when Hyvaa transitioned into an ultra-based army. I will look into it but in that game in particular it bears mentioning that was not a 4M game, not a 4M transition and not a 4M game plan for later stages. But if there is 4M games with thors im looking into it asap!
I think in one of the MMA vs Jaedong games just in the Season 3 Finals MMA used a thor.
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On October 28 2013 17:52 JonIrenicus wrote:
question: is there an equivalent guide for tvp?
Not yet.
That's my current project. Gonna take a bit of time though so don't hold your breath. I would predict a January release maybe?
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Thanks for these guides. They are excellent.
I have a question about early game aggression from the zerg (which is similar to the (unanswered) question I posted on the first of these guides recently.
Let's say the terran goes CC first (high ground or low ground) but scouts the zerg early. The terran scouts hatch first from the zerg but then early gas thereafter. I believe the correct response is to make sure you've walled off your natural by just before 6 mins in order to prevent a speedling rush from surrounding your bunker and killing it...
However... if the zerg is actually going for a v quick baneling bust, is it actually correct to wall in? I find that the timing of the first hellions is v close to the arrival of the banelings so you get very little warning this is coming. You could scan and hope to see whether the zerg took extra gas after the 100 for speed but, unless you see the baneling nest, you don't know what the extra gas is for. The issue I find is that, if it is the baneling bust, it will almost always kill the bunker and, although you can pull your hellions back to your main and evacuate the scvs from your natural (if you are quick), the zerg has completely free rein over the supply depot wall. ie they get to kill 4 supply depots for nothing - which, even if they do no other damage (which they will), is terrible for the terran (even if the terran is good enough not to get supply blocked).
It got me thinking that perhaps there is a way I don't know to tell whether it is the speedling rush or a baneling bust?
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Any updates on the Thors perhaps?
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Yes, big update on thors :
HeroMarine vs Ret (I don't remember which time it is)
http://www.twitch.tv/taketv/b/475235540
He made 2 thors and 2 widow mines at a time, thors were really usefull against mutalisks and even against ultralisks.
@vaderseven : A version of this guide on TvP would be the best thing ever! Good luck on that!
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On October 18 2013 15:24 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2013 14:30 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On October 18 2013 12:42 vaderseven wrote:On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote:
Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately. Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm). I've seen thors added to a lot of 4M games where zerg goes for upwards of 30 mutas, but the most interesting use I can remember is Hyvaa vs. Gumiho in the most recent GSTL match, where Gumiho made somewhere around 7 thors in combination with MMM (no mines) when Hyvaa transitioned into an ultra-based army. I will look into it but in that game in particular it bears mentioning that was not a 4M game, not a 4M transition and not a 4M game plan for later stages. But if there is 4M games with thors im looking into it asap!
SKT1_Fantasy vs AZUBU_Sleep
http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs3/vod/80936/?set=2
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So is this still reccomended with the recent tank buff and mine nerf? What's the current "best" style? I've seen both used, just mine style seems weaker. Most terrans seem to be adding tanks now and it's looking closer to WoL style TvZ.
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EPT
