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Canada13425 Posts
On November 21 2013 15:56 manicshock wrote:
So is this still reccomended with the recent tank buff and mine nerf? What's the current "best" style? I've seen both used, just mine style seems weaker. Most terrans seem to be adding tanks now and it's looking closer to WoL style TvZ.
I think this is the case, tanks might take over mines. Vader has a FAQ that he wrote, but feels that due to the change its not worth posting anymore. I will let him know your concerns and see if he can answer them in the next day or two. In the meantime I want to know if you guys would still like to see his FAQ about 4M, it unfortunately was being worked on during a busy time and it got put on the backburner a little too long. For that I'm sorry.
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I don't feel as if there is a best style yet. It might take a month or two to know.
Mech, for instance, might be the new modern tvz. It's really hard to tell atm.
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I really like the addition of thors that almost all terran players are starting to do vs ling bling muta 
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On November 22 2013 06:48 Desive wrote:I really like the addition of thors that almost all terran players are starting to do vs ling bling muta
I agree that Thor are good but I want to see if they remain the answer to mutas in 4m vs zero or if a larger overall change towards mech with upgraded thors being the center piece of the ground army vs any zerg that isn't going a ground focused lair roach army.
It feels like mech with fast double armory into fast(ish) sky terran army is stronger than a 4m 3/3 timing attack based game plan in the current patch.
I want to see what top korean terrans do in the next wcs season do before I say what is really best at the highest level.
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This is probably one of the best guides I ever read. Thank you so much! They need to make something like this for other matchups as well!
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On January 16 2014 02:45 0excalibur wrote:
This is probably one of the best guides I ever read. Thank you so much! They need to make something like this for other matchups as well!
There is! Actually I felt that Terran guides were lacking *(in terms of numbers) comapred to the Protoss and Zerg guides featured in TL until this guide came along.
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Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable?
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Parts of it are becoming outdated, but that comprises the minority. The openings and midgame ideas suggested are still widely applicable in normal ladder games.
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A lot of Terrans have started to switch back to hellion/banshee builds (before 3rd CC) in TvZ now, which is much more robust vs allins and gives you the potential to do game ending damage. This build (3CC -> 2 ebays) is still used regularly though.
Also, this guide was written before the mine nerf so the lategame parts are outdated, since Terrans will now use their 2nd factory for thors rather than mines in most games.
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I am fiddeling around with doing exactly this, but going starport-banshee rather than early stim. 3rd CC on normal timing and still 2 fast ebays. For me it is good, as the helions + banshee packs a punch, and it will deflect most roach attacks. For me it is good not to have to change too much in my opening.
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On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote:
Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable?
I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically.
Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own.
I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On February 06 2014 00:16 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote:
Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable? I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically. Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own. I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least.
Skipping Hellions for mines is never a good idea, they are your map control and soft contain, if he built roaches for your hellions/reaper, that is a good thing. A healthy hellion count also lets you take your third safer.
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On February 06 2014 01:43 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 00:16 Ctone23 wrote:On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote:
Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable? I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically. Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own. I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least. Skipping Hellions for mines is never a good idea, they are your map control and soft contain, if he built roaches for your hellions/reaper, that is a good thing. A healthy hellion count also lets you take your third safer.
I get what you are saying. But in plat and gold before, usually seeing a few roaches means more are coming. I will take your advice though and throw the 6 hellions back into the build, I like the idea of using them to help get my 3rd up.
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
There's a reason people don't build roaches like that though in pro play - because it's bad. When you say "but in plat and gold" etc, remember that 99% of that stuff only works because their opponents don't know how to scout+recognize+abuse stuff :D
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On February 06 2014 02:11 Cyro wrote:
There's a reason people don't build roaches like that though in pro play - because it's bad. When you say "but in plat and gold" etc, remember that 99% of that stuff only works because their opponents don't know how to scout+recognize+abuse stuff :D
"Bad" referencing... Isn't everyone bad then? You can always compare to a higher level and call something/someone bad..
It's definitely important to scout, etc. Something I have been working on for sure. I will add hellions to my build again so I can scout easier, and begin mine production after 6 hellions. For me, its the best way to deal with a swarmy zerg who rushes in with banes when I push out, otherwise without any AOE I get crushed hard.
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On February 06 2014 01:43 mau5mat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 00:16 Ctone23 wrote:On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote:
Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable? I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically. Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own. I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least. Skipping Hellions for mines is never a good idea, they are your map control and soft contain, if he built roaches for your hellions/reaper, that is a good thing. A healthy hellion count also lets you take your third safer.
Not only that, defensive Widow Mines are the definition of bad. The only good defensive Factory tech would be Tanks vs ground and Thors (+Turrets) vs Mutas.
With Hellions, you can see when he moves out with the Roaches (as opposed to simply defending and zoning your Hellions), and if he does move out, you can threaten a runby while you drop 3-4 Bunkers at home and pull SCVs ready to repair.
Then again, you can go 6-8 Hellions into 2-3 Banshees, be 100% safe from Roaches, and STILL have map control and a fairly quick third. Better yet, you can transition to either Bio or Mech.
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On February 06 2014 06:06 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 01:43 mau5mat wrote:On February 06 2014 00:16 Ctone23 wrote:On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote:
Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable? I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically. Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own. I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least. Skipping Hellions for mines is never a good idea, they are your map control and soft contain, if he built roaches for your hellions/reaper, that is a good thing. A healthy hellion count also lets you take your third safer. Not only that, defensive Widow Mines are the definition of bad. The only good defensive Factory tech would be Tanks vs ground and Thors (+Turrets) vs Mutas. With Hellions, you can see when he moves out with the Roaches (as opposed to simply defending and zoning your Hellions), and if he does move out, you can threaten a runby while you drop 3-4 Bunkers at home and pull SCVs ready to repair. Then again, you can go 6-8 Hellions into 2-3 Banshees, be 100% safe from Roaches, and STILL have map control and a fairly quick third. Better yet, you can transition to either Bio or Mech.
Predicated on the fact your control is good enough to accomplish such a task. I'll give the banshees a shot too, been reading up on that. Thanks!
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Thanks for all the feedback! So would inclusion of the banshees be something like Factory -> switch with reactor on barracks -> Tech lab on barracks -> second gas -> Starport and switch onto the tech lab on the barracks?
Additionally, (sorry again for the question) but would the thors be the answer for mutas when I move out? And should I begin incorporating them after I establish my third or before hand?
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On February 06 2014 06:20 Watchmaker wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback! So would inclusion of the banshees be something like Factory -> switch with reactor on barracks -> Tech lab on barracks -> second gas -> Starport and switch onto the tech lab on the barracks?
Additionally, (sorry again for the question) but would the thors be the answer for mutas when I move out? And should I begin incorporating them after I establish my third or before hand?
Because of the Mine nerf, Bio Mine isn't the go to composition anymore. According to individual preference, players are now mixing in Siege Tanks, Hellbats or Thors, sometimes even going pure Marine/Marauder bio. Also, Hellion/Banshee into 3 cc is also a very common strategy. If you want the build orders, check out some recent pro VODs or replays. I believe there are quite a few of those from Proleague, among others.
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I just want to say this guide is awesome !
I just wish it existed for the other two terran matchups
Thanks a bunch
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EPT
