Marine, marauder, medivac, mine, also known as 4M, is the standard in the Terran vs Zerg matchup. It was first seen near the launch of HotS and is now the go to macro style of professional players. This guide covers the two most common openings that lead to 4M and two possible ways to enter the midgame with 4M. The guide goes into detail on how to handle Zerg play styles at all stages of the game. This style of play is both fun and demanding. Good luck to everyone as they attempt to learn it!
Openings
Reaper Fast Expand
The Reaper FE is one of the most popular openings in any matchup as Terran. It allows for both early aggression with a highly micro-able unit, thorough scouting of an enemies base (and of the map in the case of TvT and TvP), and an elegant balance of early gas spending and mineral saving which allows for a relatively fast command center.
Because of the Reaper FE, many Zerg players will elect to take a very early gas and mine just 100 gas in order to get zergling speed. This allows for them to shut down the reaper if it is still on their side of the map when it is finished. The standard Reaper FE that leads into 4M play moves straight into hellions and then into 4M. This allows for the Terran player to deal easily with the speed zerglings that he forced while he is powering up to his mid game of choice.
Reaper FE is a very map dependent opening. Map features to look for that enhance the build are cliffs that you can jump up into the main without having to be in the natural (Neo Planet S or Star Station), naturals with both a cliff and a wide normal entrance (Bel'Shir Vestige), or other features that allow multiple paths of attack for the reapers. Maps that are not very good for Reaper FE include those with no jump-able entrance to the main from outside the natural and a single path into the natural (Whirlwind).
Some Zerg players will send two zerglings to your natural while you are harassing them with your reaper(s). The goal the zerg has with this move is to kill the SCV building the command center. If this happens and you do not have anything at home to repel it, you will be at a disadvantage. To prevent this from happening, either leave one reaper at home near the building command center or build the command center inside your main base.
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks (small SCV cut) 12 Refinery (end SCV cut ASAP after this starts) 15 Orbital Command 15 Reaper 16 Supply Depot 17 Reaper (Barracks will not be making units for a small time after this) 19 Command Center 21 Factory 22 Reactor on Barracks Swap Factory onto Reactor (Make 6 total Hellions and then 2 Widow Mines) Bunker
Your first reaper should harass any drones in the Zerg natural and then find a way into the main to check the Zerg's extractor timing. It is important to note that zergling speed can be finished as soon as three minutes and 15 seconds after the extractor is done. You want your reapers to be gone before this time is up. The primary goal is not to kill drones or cause damage, but to force the Zerg into getting very fast zergling speed or to punish him for not doing so. Make sure to check for the amount of gas he has mined before ending the harass. Common timings for zergling speed to be completed are 5:50-5:55 with hatch gas pool play or 6:05-6:25 with hatch pool gas.
At least 10-20 seconds before zergling speed can possibly be done, your reapers must vacate the enemy base. If all went well, you forced out an early extractor, several zerglings, and maybe even netted a few drone or zergling kills. Maybe he even wasted money on an early spine crawler. Things can only go horribly wrong if you lose one or even both of the reapers. The retreated reapers can safely clear out watch towers and check for isolated units around the map if you desire. Their current goal is to join up with the hellions that are going to be coming out of your factory. It is very advisable to join the reapers up with your first hellions in a defensive formation at your ramp to defend possible speedling aggression (in the form of 15+ speedlings). This is necessary as you presumably will not have a wall at this point.
The placement of your first bunker should be a map-dependent choice. Maps that have a larger opening (11 squares wide) to the natural expansion favor a bunker that is placed near or adjacent to the ramp leading from your natural to your main. Depending on the map layout, you will be very uncomfortable if the Zerg decides to hide a pack of speedlings on the map and uses them to back stab you as you move out with reaper/hellion. On maps with a smaller opening to the natural (9 squares), you can wall off in time (reactively if needed even) without too much worries.
When the first four hellions come out of the factory, join them up with the two reapers to check around the map for a third Zerg base. If you find a third base, you do not need to prepare for a two base tech play and can exercise map control. Kill anything at the watchtowers and stop any tumors on the edge of creep while you wait for your fifth and sixth hellion to join up with the other hellions and two reapers. Once you have all six hellions and the two reapers, you can hit a timing where you can be more aggressive onto creep than would normally feel safe (this timing ends once the Zerg has some kind of tech besides zergling speed, usually banelings, mutas, or roaches). This aggression must been done cautiously as speedlings can surround your force very quickly when you are on creep. If you feel like taking a risk, you can poke onto creep to attack queens or kill drones if he has any at his third base. Focus on not allowing a zergling surround to occur and do not try to trade units at this time. Realize that you should be aggressive and that if he does not have a scary amount of lings, you will need to punish his greed in order to not fall behind. A great way to judge how aggressive to be is to check the drone count at his third base. If he seems to have too many drones, you can count on him being low on zerglings; this is an opening to punish his greed. As his tech comes into effect, pull the units back to help defend your third. This is the final and most important purpose of the six hellions. These hellions are the only thing you have to stand on when trying to secure your third base. If you lose the hellions before this time, you will run into a lot of trouble (and probably lose the game) trying to establish your third vs speedling or baneling play by the Zerg. Ideally, this force of six hellions (and the two reapers, though they are not as important after this timing) can join up with your marines and medivacs as +1/+1 and stim come into play to execute a 11:30 creep clearing poke as you transition into the mid game.
If at any point in the opening you spot roaches, cut hellion/marine production and focus on mines/marauders. Add one to two additional bunkers over the standard single bunker. If the Zerg goes for aggression of the speedling or baneling variety, do not stop making hellions. Mines are simply not the answer to such play and you will need the splash damage of the hellions in order to deal with the swarmy nature of such plays. Keep in mind that scouting such attacks before they hit is the most important part of defending them. Any aggression that does not include banelings should prompt you to pull SCVs before he arrives in order to land a strong repair on your defensive structures. Consider emergency placement of wall-off buildings and bunkers (most Terrans seem to favor a total of three bunkers when facing early one or two base aggression). The most key part of defending aggression is positioning of all the critical units. You do not want to lose bunkers or hellions because SCVs were not pre-pulled or hellions were out on the map and have to fight their way home. Look at section 3.5 for more exact examples of Zerg aggression and how to play vs them.
Reaper FE Variations
Here is a few timing notes on some small variations you will see from the standard 12 barracks 12 gas reaper build:
11 barracks into 11 gas has the reaper starting at ~2:41
12 barracks into 12 gas has the reaper starting at= ~2:48
12 barracks into 13 gas has the reaper starting at = ~2:56
12 barracks into 12 gas is only five minerals behind a 12 barracks into 13 gas; it will gain you a reaper almost ten seconds faster.
11 barracks into 11 gas will net you a one full SCV fewer than the other builds and it will expand five seconds later; yet, it will gain you a reaper seven seconds faster. **Timings vary a bit depending on mineral stacking and thus maps.**
10 Supply Depot 14 Command Center 15 Barracks (can be on 16 as well) 16 Refinery 19 Marine (2x before Reactor) 20 Orbital Command x2 21 Factory (right at 100 gas) 23 Reactor (right at 50 gas) (swap to Factory and then make a Tech Lab on Barracks) [you will build a CC or add on more production for a 2 base play here] Swap Factory onto Reactor (Make 6 total Hellions and then 2 Widow Mines)
(You will also want a bunker. The most standard time is to make it before factory as this will help you vs eight zergling pokes. You can cut this corner if so chosen and get it as late as after a third CC is started when going for a standard macro followup. I encourage you to learn this build with the bunker before factory first.)
CC Rax Gas is one of the greediest common build used at the professional level in order to set up a 4M mid game. In fact, the only greedier build would be a CC Rax CC build. CC Rax Gas relies on getting a very strong mineral economy set up as fast as possible in order to support hellion harass/defense while powering up your infrastructure for the mid game. While a Reaper FE demands the correct reaction in terms of decision making and micro from the Zerg; the CC Rax Gas opening will demand solid macro and a robust mid game from your Zerg opponent. If you feel that your strengths are in the mid game and not the early game, this is the opening for you. It is surprisingly easy to hold this opening against aggressive Zerg play as long as a few critical things are kept in mind.
Your first decision when executing this opening is where to put the command center, either in your natural or as part of your wall-off in your main: Both have advantages and disadvantages. Some players use a scout timing to decide (outlined in next paragraph) and others make it as a meta (out-of-game) decision. As your first buildings are constructing, you will have to take extra care to protect your initial SCVs from drone harass. Right click an SCV onto any drone that is either inside your main or in your natural if opting for a low ground command center. If a drone finds your command center as it is building, you need to send two SCVs from your main into your natural. Tell one SCV to attack the drone and have the other SCV take over building of the command center while sending the damaged SCV back to your main to mine. While somewhat intricate, you will become extremely apt at this maneuver if you do this opening often.
There are several accepted scout timings to choose from when opening CC first. On two player maps, some players opt to scout after depot is done to see if they can build a low ground CC (spot a hatch first, build low ground CC), or high ground (against 10 pool). The more normal timing is to scout at 16 or 17 with the goal of checking on the Zerg's gas. If the Zerg player does go for gas, check for a third base at the six minute mark. If you do not see a third base you should leave the SCV outside of his natural to spot incoming speedling or roach attacks. Some players choose to scout after orbitals have been started just to determine the starting location of the Zerg on a four player map. These same players would not scout at all on a two player map.
Once you have completed the barracks, you will be making two marines before starting a reactor. These marines should be enough to stop any slow zergling aggression. If the Zerg player decides to send six slow zerglings to your natural before hellions are out, you will need to either use a few SCVs in conjunction with the marines or - if the marines are damaged or killed before SCVs can join - pull back into your main. If the Zerg decides to poke with eight or more zerglings and you opted for a late bunker, you are in trouble. Be careful when cutting corners with bunker timings.
If all is normal, your two marines will be enough to deter his handful of (usually two to four) early zerglings and your hellions will be quickly out on the map. Your first two hellions should be used to clear out any zerglings near your base and to check for a third base on the Zerg's end. Spotting of the third base is a key scouting consideration and should be something that you never skip. If you see a third base, you can do some mild harass of his creep spread, or if he has too many drones at his third, roast some drones. Do not let these hellions die. Much as in the Reaper FE opening, these hellions are the backbone of what allow you to expand to a third base and progress into the mid game (or in the case of a two base push style, they are critical splash damage needed in your push). When you have four hellions, it is acceptable to do a small raid. This aggression is at your own risk. As long as he has made enough zerglings so that he could kill this group of hellions, they have no need to really go onto creep at all; in fact, going onto creep if there any chance at all to lose your hellions is an error and you will lose many games if you do this. The only semi-reliable prompts for doing a raid with six hellions include seeing either way too many drones at his third base or a six queen opening (as this means the Zerg will have a late zergling speed upgrade). Once you have six hellions, you will either be sending your third command center to take a third base or getting ready to hit some kind of stim timing attack off of two bases. Either way, work your way home and keep the hellions alive. Some players will opt to go for eight to ten hellions instead of the normal six. This type of play is especially strong against a Zerg going for an aggressive zergling or zergling/baneling play and, conversely, weak against any type of roach play.
If at any point in the opening you spot roaches, cut hellion/marine production to focus on mines/marauders. One choice you can make is to add one marauder before stim against a Zerg that went for gas. This gives you a lot more firepower against roaches that show up uninvited. Adding one to two extra bunkers over the normal one that you will be adding as you move into the mid game is crucial when facing roaching players. If the Zerg goes for aggression of the speedling or baneling variety, do not stop making hellions. Mines are simply not the answer to such play and you will need the splash damage of the hellions in order to deal with the swarmy nature of such plays. If a Zerg player has opened with hatch gas pool, you will want the wall at your natural to be complete before six minutes (5:55 to be exact). Keep in mind that scouting such plays before they hit is the most important part of defending them. Any aggression that does not include banelings should prompt you to pull SCVs before he arrives in order to land a strong repair on your defensive structures. Consider emergency placement of wall off buildings and bunkers (most Terrans seem to favor a total of three bunkers when facing early one or two-base aggression). The most key part of defending aggression is positioning of all the critical units. You do not want to lose bunkers or hellions because SCVs were not pre-pulled or hellions were out on the map and have to fight their way home. Again, section 3.6 of this guide will have more information on how to deal with aggressive Zerg styles.
Flash Style Engineering Bay Block vs Pool First
10 Supply Depot (Scout with this SCV) 14 Engineering Bay (Engi at Zerg natural) 14 Barracks (at your ramp) Stop building Engi bay near 99% complete 17 Supply Depot 20 Command Center 22 2x Refinery Bunker at top of Ramp 27 Factory Reactor (Pull 3 SCVs out of Gas for now) Command Center Swap Reactor to Factory and begin Hellions Tech Lab on Barracks Stim 2x Engi Bay (place 3 back into Gas) 3x Barracks 2x Refinery Starport
In some games, as seen in MLG especially, Flash would open with a 10 supply and then scout. If he scouted a late hatch or a pool first, he would block the Zerg's natural with an engineering bay and go into a 1 Rax FE. If he scouted the hatchery started already, he would go into a CC first.
This type of build is very safe vs 10 pools. If you try a style like this, make sure that you do not finish the engineering bay and then that you cancel it seconds before it would be killed. This type of play really forces the Zerg to avoid doing mild aggression into greed as he has to use his early zerglings to either clear out his natural or attack. If he chooses to attack, you will have a wall off. Note that this only works on 2 player maps.
Finals KT_Flash vs Startale_LifeSet 1. From MLG Dallas 2013, Grand Finals (Terran Win). KT_Flash vs Startale_LifeSet 3. From MLG Dallas 2013, Grand Finals (Zerg Win). ST Bomber vs ROOT CatZ on Whirlwind Game 1. From Ritmix RSL V
Command Center (you should have 3 CC, 1 Barracks, 1 Factory, 1 Reactor, 1 Gas, 1 Bunker) *Start Reactor Hellions now* Tech Lab on Barracks Stim 2nd Refinery 2x Engineering Bay 2x Barracks (reactors asap) 2x Refinery +1/+1 Starport (reactor asap) 2x Barracks (reactors asap) Combat Shields *Should be establishing 3rd and adding a bunker at 3rd around now (~10:00)* @50% +1/+1 get your Armory +2/+2 Benchmark: At 11:30 you should have ~130-140 food if you opened CC First and ~120-130 food if you opened Reaper FE Your next moves will depend on the Zerg's playstyle but universally, you will need to add the following items: 3x Barracks (Tech Labs) Factory (Tech lab for Drilling Claws) Command Center
InNovation wisely kept his six hellions alive and is now using them to their true purpose, pushing back zerglings that try to deny him from taking his third base.
This is the most standard way to play. Right before the hellions in the opening build are being made, you will add your third command center. After the hellions have started, you should add a tech lab to the barracks and start stim. As you start stim, add your second refinery. The next step is to add two engineering bays, followed by two barracks, then two more refineries, then a starport and another two barracks. There are several ways to accomplish these steps that are not detailed below. They mainly differ in how the factory and reactor from the opening are utilized. Some players like to use the reactor that the factory was on to allow a faster first two medivacs. Others prefer to build a barracks on the reactor that was used by the factory, while having the factory add on more reactors for future barracks. Still yet, others leave the factory in place and have the other buildings make their own add-ons.
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks (small SCV cut) 12 Refinery (end SCV cut ASAP after this starts) 15 Orbital Command 15 Reaper 16 Supply Depot 17 Reaper (Barracks will not be making units for a small time after this) 19 Command Center 21 Factory 22 Reactor on Barracks 3rd Command Center *Scout the Zerg's main and check to see if he is still mining gas with 3 Drones, if so, continue* 2nd Refinery Tech Lab on Factory and Marines out of Reactor Barracks Tank Swap Factory and Barracks Stim and 2x Hellions 2x Engineering Bay 2x Barracks 2x Refinery Starport 2x Barracks
**Keep in mind that this build is best used when scouting a ground based all-in from Zerg and as such the build will get 'disrupted' at some point. Favor units over add-ons once his attack hits but do not lose sight of playing for a 3 and 4 base aggressive 4M mid game.**
One interesting trick that Fantasy used vs TRUE is to scout the Zerg's main again to check the gas just after he starts his factory, but before he has started the reactor. Seeing that TRUE was indeed mining gas and had not just gone for fast speed, he started a tech lab instead of a reactor to add a siege tank before going back into reactor hellions. This proves to be crucial in holding the two base speed zergling plus baneling attack that TRUE does shortly afterward. While the siege tank makes on the tech lab that the barracks donated, the barracks produces the reactor. It makes for a very seamless transition right back into the Hellion into 4M play that Fantasy wanted to do from the start of the game.
Fantasy pulls his reapers back then until around seven minutes and then he suicides them to scout the tech choice of TRUE. From there, he follows a very standard mid-game build, getting a very fast third command center and fast two engineering bays. He positions his units to deal with the attack before it arrives. He uses the four hellions that he has - numbers five and six still in production - to scout out the area outside his natural looking for zerglings and banelings (he sadly loses them to a surround but that should not have happened). Important to note, he has his siege tank on the high ground and every marine in his main behind raised supply depots (he does leave four marines in the bunker at his natural). After crushing the attack, he executes a double pronged attack with eight marines in a medivac and six hellions. He takes his third behind this and plays out much like any other 4M game.
Taeja goes for a similar concept against KangHo. He does not get a scout off on the Zerg's gas, but I believe he was metagaming KangHo's style and planned to make the tank regardless. He actually just makes a reactor on the barracks and builds marines out of it and the factory makes its own tech lab. He switches them after having a tank finish.
To execute this transition, simply get a tech lab onto your factory to make a tank and have a reactor on the barracks before that tank is done. You can opt for the faster reactor and slower tech lab as Taeja did or for the faster tank and the slower reactor as Fantasy did. Start a third command center as the tank is building. Once you have the tank complete, swap the barracks and factory add-ons, begin reactor hellions, and start stim when gas allows. Take a second gas after you start stim and then add two engineering bays. Once you start +1/+1, you will want to add two more barracks, two more refineries, then a starport, then two more barracks. This brings you to the very standard mid game check point in the 4M style. Keep in mind that you invested more in your defense early on so your play will be slightly weaker vs a standard Zerg while slightly stronger vs aggressive ground styles.
In WCS Korea Season 1 Code S Ro4 STX_INnoVation vs AZUBU_Symbol Game 6 INnoVation and Symbol face off in cross spawns on Whirlwind. INnoVation had just lost to a few all-ins and modifies his play with an interesting combination of standard hellion play and a siege tank. His build looks very normal with the factory taking the reactor and pumping out four hellions and the barracks making a tech lab. Once the first four hellions are done and the tech lab completes he swaps the buildings and makes a tank. I love this adaption to the map and starting positions and it easily helps INnoVation to hold the very late roach/bane bust that hits his third base at ~12:30.
Your opening will provide you with many crucial pieces of information, but in the case that you have not completely pinned the Zerg on his mid game style of choice, proceed with caution but determination. Focus on a 11:30 timing that is opened by you getting 1/1 and stim. These upgrades line up with your production kicking in and is a crucial timing with the 4M playstyle. Be wary of any Zerg that has shown you roaches before this timing, or that was harvesting an usual amount of gas in the earlier part of the game. Special attention needs to this style of Zerg. Use your hellions, without losing them, to scout out his third base and to see a drone count there. If there are no drones, or very few drones, at his third by 8:00, you should be very concerned about an aggressive play coming from the Zerg. If there is still few or no drones at 9:00, it is certain that aggression is coming.. If you feel that an aggressive play is coming, you will need to deviate from the goal of the 11:30 timing and focus on reacting to the Zerg's specific flavor of aggression. Do note that if the Zerg is committing to some kind of aggressive three base all-in this can be a game ending move. Pay attention to what your hellions are able to see. In extreme cases, you can attempt to scan for a tech building or to to measure his economy. This is unreliable and should only be done when you are completely blind and do not want to make a blind decision.
Assuming that you have not seen signs of an aggressive style coming from the Zerg, you will push out at the 11:30 timing mentioned above. The goal of the 1/1 stim timing is to contest map control. Behind every action you do during this push, keep the true purpose of map control in mind. Do not sacrifice or trade units. Doing so will leave you without any map control, and therefor, is counter productive to your goal. Your main targets will be creep tumors, stray overlords, and queens that have overextended. This push will force the Zergs hand and he will have to show you his unit composition at this point. At this point you can modify your play and mindset to better match his playstyle.
Other Mid Game Transitions
Two other mid game options that have popped up recently include banshee openings and two-base bio mine push openings. Both of these will be covered in a later guide.
When you push out at 11:30 with 1/1 and stim. Your goal is to contest map control from the Zerg. If you are out on the map, he cannot be harassing with mutalisks. If you are out on the map, you can deny creep and prevent future creep from spreading. Do not make the mistake of overextending onto creep during this timing; if you are on creep, the Zerg will easily be able to win a battle. Do not hesitate to lift up all units into medivacs and speed boost back to safety if the Zerg starts to gain a favorable position in battle. The goal of this 11:30 timing is do as much 'free' damage as possible to the Zerg. The objective is too kill creep tumors. Use medivacs and mines to ensure that you do not lose any units. The main target is creep and you should be using medivacs and mines to ensure that you do not lose any units. The real attack is still yet to come and this aggressive poke helps to make that attack stronger.
Once you have 2/2 upgrades, your aggression should kick into high gear. This particular phase of the game will favor the player with better mechanics. Both players have options to harass and counterattack, and both players have scary armies to throw at each other. Many Terrans favor rallying across the map and doing large pushes that seem to never stop at this stage. Establish your fourth base and add three more barracks with tech labs and a factory with tech lab (for widow mine burrow upgrade).
InNovation uses the 1/1 stim timing to clear creep from both the lower and then the upper paths.
Once 2/2 is done he aggressively corners an army that overextends then pushes towards the Zerg's fourth base through the middle. The Zerg is then forced to hold a defensive position near this fourth which leaves him open to drops in both his main and his yet to be finished fifth. This is a bad situation for the Zerg as he just lost the creep that would help him in spotting attacks on his main or fifth.
Other mid game production composition are possible besides the standard 8/2/1 barracks/factory/staport setup described in the above paragraph. Flash uses a 7/2/1 (five reactor'd rax and two tech lab'd) that really favors and focuses in on the constant rally style of aggression. Polt has shown a 8/3/1 style where he gets his second factory rather quickly (with the tech lab for the burrow upgrade) and then a third factory with a reactor so that he can make five mines at a time.
After the Zerg moves to hive tech, you need to establish if he is going for brood lords or for ultras. Ultras are by far the most common but you cannot assume. Against both ultras and brood lords, you need to begin dropping as much as possible. You require a heavy marauder count vs ultras and (at least) a second starport vs broods. Try to maximize the cost effectiveness of every engagement and keep up on your production. It is rare to need to go to a fifth base but do not let yourself be caught mining out your natural and third with no fifth established. On either four or five bases, you have the option to begin a transition to ravens/BCs/vikings (not necessarily all three, usually either BC/viking or raven/viking at first). Be careful in doing so as it does leave you a bit weaker until you have reached a certain critical mass. If you feel that you have a slight lead but his defense is too strong for you to kill him, you might be in an ideal situation to transition like this.
You will be focusing much less on pushing and much more on dropping (and scouting) when the Zerg goes for an infestor style. Use small groups of marines to push out and kill tumors at the 11:30, 1/1 stim timing, but be ready to flee at a moments notice. Eight marines and one medivac is a great group to do this with. Keep your army active on the map but not on creep. On creep you are very vulnerable to infestors that just out of vision. Be wary of moving up mid-map ramps as they are another location that infestors can abuse a clumped up army due to vision created by the high ground mechanic. Each time you see his army, back off and send a medivac drop into one of his bases. Keep your harass units alive while active (run when he comes and go back in when he leaves). Once 2/2 kicks in, you can begin to do double medivac drops and/or drops in multiple locations. Expand behind your harass and be prepared to deal with hive tech level aggression.
Keep in mind that the strengths of infestor based play include the ability to defend pushes that run onto creep and a faster-than-normal hive. The answer to both of these items is drop play. With drop play as your focus, make the rest of your play support that idea. Adding a single viking in the early mid-game can be extremely effective in reducing spotting overlords that will help him defend drops. Use small portions of your army to kill creep and force his main army to show itself; this will allow you to drop the best positions when he is vulnerable.
Some Zerg players will mix in a massive amount of static defense in order to counter the intuitive response of drop play from the Terran. Against such players, you should hold off on the drop harass and instead focus all of your energy into a pre-hive-tech timing attack. Once the Zerg has finished his hive, it will be about two minutes before hive units are in play. This is the time to attack. Ling/bling/infestor is much less robust at holding a large push at this timing than muta/ling/bling, so as long as you push carefully you should win or trade in such a cost effective way as to hurt his hive tech timing.
Korean Terrans seem to favor a fast second factory once their third base is up vs this style of play. Many Terrans will normally make barracks six through eight before the second factory, but when facing infestor play, this is not the case. Also note, marauders are much more useful here than against a muta/ling/bling player, as they can be used to snipe infestors before a battle.
The normal 11:30 push out with 1/1 and stim will not work vs this style of play. You want to play the role of the defender more so than usual. In an ideal world, you should know that the Zerg has chosen to go roach/hydra well before you have made too many widow mines. In that case, begin making tanks out of two (or even three) factories. Realistically, you will often have to switch your mindset very quickly in a game when you find out he went for this composition. In such a case, do not hesitate! Switch your factory to a tech lab and get a second factory started. It is a good decision to go more marauder heavy in a situation like this (up to four tech lab marauders instead of the normal single tech lab barracks).
If you have the multitasking and feel good about your defense, you can opt to do some drops. This is, however, risky as, unless the Zerg overextends, the opponent will be able to take advantage of some mid-game timings where his army is able to either break your third base or force way too much to be lost in holding it.
Your overall goal is to build an extremely cost effective army and hit a timing while he is transitioning to hive. Once you have acquired around 170-180 food and six or more tanks, you can begin to push out. If he has not started a hive yet, do not push even at this timing. Keep the goal of hitting him before hive tech in mind at all times. An army based around six to ten tanks is simply impossible for a roach/hydra army to fight on even terms. Do not get out of position and make sure to hit before he is able to change his composition, but not a minute sooner.
If, for some reason, you enter into the mid game with a sizable advantage and the Zerg goes for a roach/hydra play, you can transition into pure bio. Pure bio is very strong vs this kind of play as long as you fear no timings that the Zerg might use against you.
To better understand this strategy we will take a close look at a game of Yoda's. Yoda vs RorO from WCS Korea Season 1 Code S ro16 2013 to be exact. RorO skipped infestors and went straight to hive tech and ultras. His hive started at 11:45. He used mass speedling and a few banes to hold the 11:30 timing from Yoda, and more importantly, counterattacked constantly as his hive built to keep Yoda on the back foot. Yoda denies the fourth of RorO over and over but never hurts the three base economy before ultras are already on the way. As soon as he spots the ultra cavern, he attempts to do mass drops, but by then it is too late and RorO begins to get a return on his risky investment into extremely fast ultras.
Yoda needed to identify the strategy of RorO by around 12 minutes at the latest and do doom drops and/or multi-pronged drops. Denying the fourth over and over is not enough to hold back the surge of army power that the Zerg will get by around the 18-19 minute mark. The conclusion to my theorycrafting here would be if you see a Zerg on mass upgraded speedlings with an extreme absence of gas units to scan for a hive or use a medivac to scout for his hive. Just after 12 minutes Yoda spots a huge army of zerglings and has seen RorO attempt to take a fourth over and over. His conclusion should be that RorO is saving gas and not trying to win on three bases. The only time that mass dropping will not work very well is if they have added a lot of static defense. In the case of that, simply deny his fourth base as much as possible, and add on your extra barracks with tech labs as soon as possible (you want four total tech lab'd barracks).
In general vs this style, it is ok to fight small battles but avoid big fights in the mid game. Once you have 3/3 and a good mixture of marauders in your army, you can be more aggressive and push in a more direct way.
ROOT_Catz popularized this proxy hatch build as a unique reaction to a high ground CC first. If a Zerg wants to do this build, he will scout you early, ID the high ground CC, and then plant a proxy hatchery right in your natural. He will then try to contain you with spines, creep tumors and zerglings. Often times, this proxy hatchery is his third hatchery, started before a pool. Some Zergs will attempt to force an over reaction by planting a hatchery and then not committing with spines or units. Do not overreact and abandon your normal build before confirming that they are going to commit.
A precise reaction that has been seen at the professional level is to cancel the gas and throw down a second barracks. Make sure to do a slight scv cut so that you can get out one marine at 18 of 19 food. Pull two scvs into your natural, one will start a bunker in a safe spot in range of the hatch and the other will attack the hatchery. Add a third barracks and at 25 of 30 food take your first gas. Begin walling your natural off as soon as your bunker is done. You should have no trouble holding the zergling push that usually follows this kind of play.
14+ Speedling Raid (can be up to 35 Speedlings)
This can hit anytime after zergling speed is done (usually between 5:55 and 6:20). When going CC Rax Gas, walling the natural is enough (as already mentioned). Do not overestimate the lead you have against this. The Zerg can take his third at a normal timing and drone extremely hard behind a speedling contain. He will be behind in some fashion (later upgrades, later tech, or usually less creep), but it will not be a significant disadvantage. The Terran player needs to wait for four to six hellions before moving out. Going all the way to eight hellions can be a sound decision to reclaim map control.
Holding this with Reaper FE is fairly straight forward. Simply stay near the ramp with your hellions and reapers and place a bunker near the ramp with a good sim city of depots around it.
Please note that the vods below are examples of handling the attack with an incomplete wall. The ideal solution is to have your wall up in time, but this does not always happen and these are great examples of how play if you find yourself in that situation.
The key factor in holding this will be how well you use your hellions. You need to keep them alive and get good hits off on the zerglings. Do not be afraid to stay on the high ground and even wall the top of your ramp with a thicker-than-normal wall vs variants of this that hit especially fast.
This type of roach attack hits very early and is fairly all-in. If you went for a CC Rax Gas opening, you need to wall as soon as possible and have SCVs ready to repair before the first roach volleys hit. Focus on producing marauders and micro your SCVs both to keep them alive when under fire and to keep your bunker alive when it is under fire.
The idea and mindset for this defense is the same as the above. Keep in mind that this will hit a bit later but with more roaches and it is much less all-in for the Zerg. Some Zergs will add in burrow to this attack (both making it more all-in and a bit stronger).
You need a lot of bunkers to hold this, four to five. Your second and third barracks should be close to completed when this hits. Leave those two barracks naked and produce marines out of them. Your first barracks should have swapped to make a tech lab and should now be making marauders. Your factory needs to make constant mines.
Make sure that the bunkers you made are spread more than enough so that the baneling damage AoE can only hit one at a time. Keep your hellions and mines behind your wall. This ensures that single zerglings cannot trigger the mines and that the hellions remain alive.. Some players like to poke a bit out of their base with hellions to try to snipe banes as they approach, but I encourage you to only do safe actions with your hellions. If your control is to the point that you can attempt to snipe banes without losing a single hellion, then do it. Just know that the hellions are the only solution available to you if a hole is made in your wall and zerglings swarm in.
This style can be played with a fake third base, so do not rule it out unless you see some kind of saturation at his third. You will want to have three bunkers at the front of your natural and some marines patrolling the edges of your bases. You must watch your minimap a lot. Focus your production on marauders and do not hesitate to pull SCVs to kill nyduses or to help defend. This can be especially important if a nydus does go up and you need to fight in your main away from bunkers.
Leave all your extra buildings naked (you can sneak in a second tech lab on a barracks. Keep your production constant and focus on marauders. Pull all your SCVs in your main to help tank where he drops. If you see this coming far in advance, you can place a few bunkers in your main to help; however, this is an unlikely situation.
Wall your natural and have a few extra bunkers in place. Do not cut mines at all. Pre-spread your bio with marauders more towards the front. Focus on keeping your hellions alive so you can search for massive groups of zerglings outside your base. If the Zerg does not spread his banelings, focus fire mine hits onto them for maximum damage. To spot this coming, you will see no gas at the Zerg's third and a lower than normal drone count.
Last vs LifeFrom MLG. YoDa vs LuckyFrom GSTL. Stephano vs ForGGfrom WCS Europe. FanTaSy vs GoldenFrom Up & Downs. The last two games are of a lower drone count (35-40) and deserve special attention as they hit earlier, but with a weaker economy, and no 1/1.
Three Base Speedroach/Speedbane Bust
Without tanks, this play is almost impossible to hold if they do it correctly. Even with tanks, you will want a decent sim city and no errors in macro. Additional bunkers are important just as in almost every ground based defense, but without tanks you stand very little chance.
A tankless defense of this play would rely on bunkers, well spread mines, and marauders. A minimum of six bunkers in key locations would be needed. See the TaeJa vs Snute vod below for an example of a tankless defense. Do note that Snute hit late and that if he had hit at a better timing he would have destroyed TaeJa.
Be aware that Zergs can try to disguise this play with a fourth hatchery. A key point in your scouting will be to note that he is on four gas (or less) even though he has four hatcheries.
There you have it guys. This is how the macro beasts of Korea have been taking apart Zergs left and right. I would personally recommend that you pay close attention to Flash and InNovation's games in any of the vods listed above. I would recommend that any player trying to learn this 4M style to find themselves a Zerg practice partner (or a build order tester or a friendly computer player) and to grind out the CC Rax Gas (section 1.2) into reactor hellion and fast third CC (section 2.1) and have the Zerg play a ling/bling/muta style (section 3.1) (or act like the enemy is doing so if you are playing in a build order tester or vs a computer). That will help to ingrain the basic flow of the most textbook version modern TvZ.
The next Terran project of the strategy team is going to be a three-part follow-up to this guide. Look forward to information on Roach/Baneling reactions, Hellion/Banshee openings, and two base push style mid-games.
Woah, every single paragraph offers precise insight on a specific aspect of the game. I just read one section and have already learned something (early bio push has the main objective to clear creep). Amazing write up!
On August 16 2013 00:11 Jer99 wrote: This honestly improved my tvz by an incredible margain. Thank you so much Vader and everyone else who contributed!
Your welcome.
My baby is finally born!!! I'll get started on the first follow up article tomorrow. Hopefully it doesn't take 4 months to get from start to finish like this one did.
Dayvie wrote : TvZ feels quite balanced until the very late game [...] finding ways to help out Zerg in those specific battles. [...] so that we keep the early- and mid-game the same while specifically helping out the Zerg in the later stages. [...]
We don't know [...] it might be cool if [...] It’s possible that we can both increase the strength of Zerg in the late game and bring back a fun strategy that we’re seeing a bit less lately.
[...] We want to know as much as possible about how changes like these play out, so we’re ready when changes are needed.
I really don't see lategame zerg coming in play most of the time...
TL Strategy wrote : Once 2/2 is done [...] This is a bad situation for the Zerg [...] Expand behind your harass and be prepared to deal with hive tech level aggression.[...]
As far as I see that 2/2 kicks in, it feels it is still mid-game...
My gosh thank you so much for this. So detailed, I instantly bookmarked. Ironically I just was posting on all things terran about my troubles with TvZ, this came at a beautiful time.
On August 15 2013 23:34 massivez wrote: Next a zerg strategy guid plz.
I'm looking forward to this, it would be also be interesting how the roach/baneling with muta develops, i think that's one of the correct mixs to fight the 4M.
Will there be a similar guide for TvT & TvP as I found this remarkably helpful. I've been in plat trying to get to diamond and I"m finding my decision making is horrendous because of a lack of knowledge like this. I am that terran that pushes onto creep, loses the whole army to speedbling sandwhich and then cries himself to sleep at night.
There's a designated balance discussion thread for anything about balance. Citing win statistics for TvZ and balance changes in a strategy guide discussion is just noise.
On August 15 2013 23:34 massivez wrote: Next a zerg strategy guid plz.
I'm looking forward to this, it would be also be interesting how the roach/baneling with muta develops, i think that's one of the correct mixs to fight the 4M.
there were guides on TL for Z and P and nowhere near was there a T guide, I think it will take some time before we'll see a Z or P guide.
On August 15 2013 23:34 massivez wrote: Next a zerg strategy guid plz.
I'm looking forward to this, it would be also be interesting how the roach/baneling with muta develops, i think that's one of the correct mixs to fight the 4M.
there were guides on TL for Z and P and nowhere near was there a T guide, I think it will take some time before we'll see a Z or P guide.
Heh. I think there is a p and z guide that is coming soon actually.
It all depends on us writers. There just is not that many terran writters. I plan to write a follow up for this that covers hellion/banshee, roach/bane macro, and 2 base 4m pushes. After that, I will look at a TvT or TvP guide of the scope of what this one is.
On August 15 2013 23:34 massivez wrote: Next a zerg strategy guid plz.
I'm looking forward to this, it would be also be interesting how the roach/baneling with muta develops, i think that's one of the correct mixs to fight the 4M.
I think it will take some time before we'll see a Z or P guide.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... Ahem, sorry, I found this funny for some reason.
Awesome guide, one can see a lot of work went into that. Now zerg guide pls kekeke or a guide to win a macro tvp game (sorry asking the impossible here)
Ugh... I hate you for doing this lol. I'm terrible at dealing with this style against people who are terrible with it. I can't imagine how much more I'll die now that people will know how to properly execute it!
With the amount I die to zerg all-ins or embarrassingly lose to the hatch in my natural, this guide looks to be really, really helpful (depending on me utilizing it). And I pretty much assumed Catz popularized that strat; I'm hardly that pleased to find out I was right, since it was a pretty natural assumption.
They wrote an important reminder not to assume you're that far ahead because you deflect some of these. I'll try to think of it that way rather than my customary anger at Zerg being able to get away with some of the stuff it does.
On August 16 2013 02:32 cutler wrote: Wow first time on TL i see some love for terran players. Thank you so much. I think i love TL again after all this Dota2 madness...
Do i smell a whine in disguise ? ... mmm yeah i think i do You poor terrans ! Well hope you enjoy this one it deserves props for being into such a detail !
LoL this must be the funniest strategy post ever (Lol terran's cancer army composition)!!!! gj well written, im zerg yet I could still can learn alot from it, nice replays, nice everything.
On August 16 2013 02:32 cutler wrote: Wow first time on TL i see some love for terran players. Thank you so much. I think i love TL again after all this Dota2 madness...
For real... where was this months ago before I gave up on SC2 D;
To whomever made the formatting etc for this guide: did you know that if you do this sort of stuff in a corporate environment you can get paid six figures?
On August 16 2013 03:16 Shady Sands wrote: To whomever made the formatting etc for this guide: did you know that if you do this sort of stuff in a corporate environment you can get paid six figures?
that might be a tiny bit of a stretch . but yeah, put this on your CV
On August 16 2013 03:16 Shady Sands wrote: To whomever made the formatting etc for this guide: did you know that if you do this sort of stuff in a corporate environment you can get paid six figures?
On August 16 2013 03:16 Shady Sands wrote: To whomever made the formatting etc for this guide: did you know that if you do this sort of stuff in a corporate environment you can get paid six figures?
Holy shit wo1fwood is rich.
I hope he remembers us when he's in his private jet!
this is truly how it should be done on all guides!!! im a zerg player and loved the read and info as this guide it will help both races..... sorry terrans......FOR THE SWARM!
This is excellently done. A thorough treatment of THE standard in TvZ nowadays, with exceptional detail and excellent VoDs/Replays for further solo analysis by interested readers.
TL Strategy, you get all the internets for this one. I will be bookmarking this.
Thank you for the Terran guide, TL! It looks excellent and it's full of content to pour over. Very appreciative and I encourage more of this (Terran resources)!
Amazing post, I literally just did what it said and I'm now winning left and right TvZ. Would be very nice with a TvP one, since I get the impression that terran is pretty strong TvZ these days, but not so much TvP.
On August 16 2013 08:25 KarlSiegt wrote: Modern T vs Z??!.. Ahahahaha.. terran make from beta of Wol marine marauder medivac blind against all , and now is one M more!.. M.M.M.M..
The core unit composition is the same, but the style is quite different actually...
Very well done. Been struggling a bit with Zerg until yesterday when I tried the reaper-hellion into 4M build. That being said it was very rusty and I made lots of mistakes but it was so dam effective it took me by surprise.
Ehh I'm sure you could find a more creative name than "MMMM" or "4M" Why not give it one of the cool protoss build names, like the "PartinG CHOO CHOO" or the "HuK YOLO Gateway ALLIN"
Under Roach/Baneling The replay: "TaeJa vs Hyun Set 2. From ASUS ROG Summer (Terran Win)" is actually a loss. It isn't marked loss in the replay pack as well.
Other than that I very much appreciate this guide, especially the detail and vods/replays.
On August 16 2013 14:19 Defeat wrote: Under Roach/Baneling The replay: "TaeJa vs Hyun Set 2. From ASUS ROG Summer (Terran Win)" is actually a loss. It isn't marked loss in the replay pack as well.
Other than that I very much appreciate this guide, especially the detail and vods/replays.
Whoops, sorry about that. I'm glad you enjoyed the guide though ^^
Need a perpetually edited guide of this quality for each match-up, for each race, that is always up to date to the current meta, with the most 'standard' playstyle.
On August 16 2013 13:20 DinosaurPoop wrote: Ehh I'm sure you could find a more creative name than "MMMM" or "4M" Why not give it one of the cool protoss build names, like the "PartinG CHOO CHOO" or the "HuK YOLO Gateway ALLIN"
These names have been around for almost as long as the composition has been, it wouldn't make sense for them to make up a new name for it.
I like to use widow mines to cover my retreat path. Dart in with some mmm near edge of creep and take out creep tumours. When the zerg commit I run back behind my widow mines line. I find it works better for me rather than to have the mines with your army or even ahead of your army where banes can inadvertently blow them up as they are hitting your bio.
On August 16 2013 15:43 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: Need a perpetually edited guide of this quality for each match-up, for each race, that is always up to date to the current meta, with the most 'standard' playstyle.
Then I could be good.
Unfortunately,this isn't really viable as it would take probably about the equivalent of three people working full time to accomplish.
I am highly impressed by the quality of the writeup, the depth undergone (including specific timing windows and objectives vs all MUs), the examples provided, and by the TL Strategy community in general. Although this is a Berlin Wall of text, it is surprisingly dense. I applaud the links to the various parts of the MU as it makes navigating this guide much easier.
My one nitpick is that the font color and size makes it difficult to read. Hah, large text = hard to read? Yes. I liked the dense introductory paragraph's font size much more. HOWEVER, that is a very SMALL detail in an otherwise IMPECCABLE writeup.
impressive write up, the amount of work is tremendous and the guide is very well done. I am a Z and I will have to hunt you down for providing a full guideline to TvZ to everyone out there. Unless... unless you do the same for Z!
Use medivacs and mines to ensure that you do not lose any units. The main target is creep and you should be using medivacs and mines to ensure that you do not lose any units.
The whole thing is riddled with redundancy and repetitiveness.
Thanks alot, ill use some of this to adjust my old reaper hellion opener to the current meta as ive been struggling alot vs the popular roach allins lately
Nice guide, I just hit high masters (top 3) yesterday playing random, and surprisingly a ton of TvZ wins got me there.
I usually follow up the reaper harass with a widow mine drop (cc factory cc starport) though, and I find it more effective when my zerg opponents aren't at the highest level. You force spores and early lair when the zerg player sees widow mines, and sometimes you even net quite a few drone kills if they aren't watching the minimap.
The damage done (drone kills, forced zerglings & spores) usually allows me to safely take my 3rd behind a few widow mines and some marines, and with the faster starport tech I can constantly drop safely (since no mutas would be out at that timing) or at least scout with the medivac saving a few scans.
TBH, even if the guide is aweseome (wich it is), I don't like it, because as Terran I would prefer a new build or something more else, not the most-used mix on the entire metagame, from pros to noobs on Ladder.
Anyway good guide, but please try to do others more useful about builds or mixes that are harder to play, require more skill, or at least are different from the bread and butter on TvZ nowadays =/
Awesome guide, very detailed and in depth, I already had somewhat of a good grasp on TvZ but this filled in a lot of the holes I still had and I'm very thankful for this.
I think I have one thing to point out though, it would be appreciated if you add another subtopic in the "Aggressive play" section about 2 base Muta rush. It should be relatively easy to deal with if you add turrets and place mines in strategic locations but it would probably help a lot of people out to know this and know when it is safe to land and secure their 3rd against this option.
Also, I have another proposed idea, a lot of the guides here focus on how to execute specific build orders, but it might be really helpful if someone wrote a guide on how to fight, as in the exact steps a certain player would have to take to secure himself a victory in a fight using a certain composition vs another composition.
Example, how would a terran with marine, tank and medivac go about engaging vs a zerg going, ling, bling, muta, where do you position, how do you advance, what do you do before in and after the engagement, what do you micro and how do you micro it etc. This can be applied to any scenario probably and it would be nice to have one consolidated resource about the rules of engagement in all MUs.
On August 16 2013 15:43 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: Need a perpetually edited guide of this quality for each match-up, for each race, that is always up to date to the current meta, with the most 'standard' playstyle.
Then I could be good.
Unfortunately,this isn't really viable as it would take probably about the equivalent of three people working full time to accomplish.
Ya there would need to be like a business model in place to support a staff of about (3 Writters, 2-4 peer editors, 1 project coordinator, 1 HTML specialist).
I doubt we could find a way to give 7-9 people even 500 dollars a month for the efforts.
Shoot, even 250 a month would be hard to find a way to support.
The people that do this do it out of passion / love of community.
On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote: I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
I think both macro and all in responses are valid. As this guide (in its current state) is mainly about 3CC double Eng, I would say that all-ins are very strong... unless the Terran scouts well and responds with a tank. 4M can be simply out played with solid macro and micro when doing Ling/Bling/Muta. I personally have the most trouble vs players that go for a roach heavy macro style with banelings but those styles do not fair well against other openers into 4M.
There is no hard counter to 4M. Just like there is no hard counter to Ling/Bling/Muta. If both players go for solid macro styles, the player that plays a more solid macro/micro game will win.
The guide mentions getting two widow mines after the first 6 hellions. Then what? Are people generally making their starport on the factory's reactor or do they continue making constant widow mines? Does anyone have strong opinions on this or is it just a style choice? I had been trying both before this guide and I really don't know which is better...
On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote: I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
I strongly believe that it's all about the mechanics (micro and macro) of both players that determine the outcome of a TvZ, so in my opinion the best response is just solid macro and intelligent micro.
The guide mentions getting two widow mines after the first 6 hellions. Then what? Are people generally making their starport on the factory's reactor or do they continue making constant widow mines? Does anyone have strong opinions on this or is it just a style choice? I had been trying both before this guide and I really don't know which is better...
What are your thoughts?
It varries a lot. Some use the factory to make add one for raxes and others slam out more mines. I'll include more info on that in the first update. Very good question.
On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote: I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
There are 3 big hurdles to this strat that must be overcome:
1) ling / bane / roach all in. This has more to do with the current meta rather than this is strat itself. ling / bane / roach all ins hit before terran has enough production to deal with it (which is why scouting it and throwing down a ton of bunkers is essential)
2) ultras. There is only so much kiting you can do. Eventually the ultras barrel their way into your production line then any units that come out just instantly die. Infestors make ultras even more annoying to deal with. If you stop kiting even for a second your army gets fungled and you just straight up die.
3) broodlord / ultra tech switches. If ultras haven't killed off the terran, just the threat of a broodlord switch makes terran's life more difficult because terran can't just make a catch all army in this situation. (ie. vikings suck vs. ultras and bio suck vs. broodlords). Well some people like Avilo claim that you just make ravens late game and you beat zerg no matter what their unit composition is. From personal experience ravens don't deal with ultra / ling armies particularly well. Besides, you need a crap ton of bases to make a big raven army. If terran get up to a crap ton of bases, they generally win regardless of unit composition in this matchup at least.
On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote: I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
The key for Zerg is just to get to their late game hive units, and aim for a Ultra, infestor, hydra army, with banelings/queen/corrupter for support. This will just destroy any Terran bio army no matter how good their micro is. They key is getting there - too many Zergs make the mistake of staying Hive too long, making mass muta. If Terran gets a stranglehold on the fourth, then just sack it and make bases at two other positions - Zerg has the luxury of pretty much making bases wherever they want, and just pull drones and sacking the base if they need to.
Get early 4th and 5th by 12 mins, sack whichever one Terran attacks and pull drones to the other. Get around 10 mutas - purely for drop defense and mine cleanup with overseer. Keep around 30 defensive banelings and split into at least 3 smaller clumps. Transition into hive by using gas saved up from not massing muta, and get a few infestors to go with Ultra. Once ultras pop, there is usually a 2-3 minute window to just destory the Terran army with Ultras since Terran will have a large amount of marines, and then just deny Terran 4th and it's game for Zerg.
Another effective build is just to mass roach bane mid game, which actually trade extremely well against Terran if no tanks are around, as usually there are only mass marines with mines. From there, just keep up the aggression and transition into hive and ultra composition.
On August 17 2013 05:36 Tachion wrote: I'm curious what Terran's think the best response to this style is atm.
There are 3 big hurdles to this strat that must be overcome:
1) ling / bane / roach all in. This has more to do with the current meta rather than this is strat itself. ling / bane / roach all ins hit before terran has enough production to deal with it (which is why scouting it and throwing down a ton of bunkers is essential)
2) ultras. There is only so much kiting you can do. Eventually the ultras barrel their way into your production line then any units that come out just instantly die. Infestors make ultras even more annoying to deal with. If you stop kiting even for a second your army gets fungled and you just straight up die.
3) broodlord / ultra tech switches. If ultras haven't killed off the terran, just the threat of a broodlord switch makes terran's life more difficult because terran can't just make a catch all army in this situation. (ie. vikings suck vs. ultras and bio suck vs. broodlords). Well some people like Avilo claim that you just make ravens late game and you beat zerg no matter what their unit composition is. From personal experience ravens don't deal with ultra / ling armies particularly well. Besides, you need a crap ton of bases to make a big raven army. If terran get up to a crap ton of bases, they generally win regardless of unit composition in this matchup at least.
#1 is correct. #2 and #3 are not really an issue if you understand how to fight against hive tech and how to play in the mid game. Most loses when going 4m are a result of an early game or mid game aggressive play doing significant damage to the terran or from the terran being out macrod/microd in the mid game. The late game is simply not when most games of TvZ are decided.
Games are rarely won from the terran side before terran hits 3/3. By the time terran hits 3/3 the zerg better be not too far behind with their own 3/3 or they will lose more often then not. That's also the time when zerg start getting ultras + infestors.
Yes terrans can get advantages from a 2/2 attack when they are generally maxed but if you don't outright kill zerg off you will still have to deal with infestors and ultras unless the zerg stubbornly stays on lair tech which we see quite a bit. In fact a lot of times terran are simply trying to survive until they get 3/3. A midgame advantage could lead to something like quicker 3/3 upgrades and better econ for the late game, but you still have to beat that army where your control cannot afford to slip up.
I just read the guide, and must say it's very well written.. As a fairly weak lower-league player guess won't help me too too much, but I'm a random player that plays fairly equal all the 3 of the races, so pretty sure I'm not biased overall (unless weakening the builds that I lose frustratingly to like some gay all-ins at times ) --> I have a question to ask regardless..
Why do you guys say that the Widow-Mines aren't good vs Ling/Bane ??, and say that those are good vs Roaches only ??
Kinda think that the mines are good vs those all, or if anything - maybe weakest vs the Roach, so - the other way round IMO..
On August 16 2013 03:16 Shady Sands wrote: To whomever made the formatting etc for this guide: did you know that if you do this sort of stuff in a corporate environment you can get paid six figures?
On August 17 2013 18:06 VArsovskiSC wrote: I just read the guide, and must say it's very well written.. As a fairly weak lower-league player guess won't help me too too much, but I'm a random player that plays fairly equal all the 3 of the races, so pretty sure I'm not biased overall (unless weakening the builds that I lose frustratingly to like some gay all-ins at times ) --> I have a question to ask regardless..
Why do you guys say that the Widow-Mines aren't good vs Ling/Bane ??, and say that those are good vs Roaches only ??
Kinda think that the mines are good vs those all, or if anything - maybe weakest vs the Roach, so - the other way round IMO..
Don't get it..
I think you are misunderstanding the context. Mines are great vs everything in a macro game. When the zerg is going for an aggressive all in or attack, mines are only useful vs roaches. If they are doing a ling or bling all-in they can trigger mines with one zergling very easily. This negates the mine at a very minimal cost.
On August 17 2013 18:06 VArsovskiSC wrote: I just read the guide, and must say it's very well written.. As a fairly weak lower-league player guess won't help me too too much, but I'm a random player that plays fairly equal all the 3 of the races, so pretty sure I'm not biased overall (unless weakening the builds that I lose frustratingly to like some gay all-ins at times ) --> I have a question to ask regardless..
Why do you guys say that the Widow-Mines aren't good vs Ling/Bane ??, and say that those are good vs Roaches only ??
Kinda think that the mines are good vs those all, or if anything - maybe weakest vs the Roach, so - the other way round IMO..
Don't get it..
I think you are misunderstanding the context. Mines are great vs everything in a macro game. When the zerg is going for an aggressive all in or attack, mines are only useful vs roaches. If they are doing a ling or bling all-in they can trigger mines with one zergling very easily. This negates the mine at a very minimal cost.
So very true.
Took me a while to learn when I see a bust coming I have to lay the mines back behind my wall and bunkers, so when he swarms in thinking he popped my mines that they can go undergroundfuckyouface mode.
On August 17 2013 02:30 Destructicon wrote: Awesome guide, very detailed and in depth, I already had somewhat of a good grasp on TvZ but this filled in a lot of the holes I still had and I'm very thankful for this.
I think I have one thing to point out though, it would be appreciated if you add another subtopic in the "Aggressive play" section about 2 base Muta rush. It should be relatively easy to deal with if you add turrets and place mines in strategic locations but it would probably help a lot of people out to know this and know when it is safe to land and secure their 3rd against this option.
So true, I play with a 2-base low-eco mutalisk strat against terran because if the terran go expo then hellions the marine count will suffer. Generally terran have like 6 marines when my mutalisk hits (9:00 minute mark, pops at 8:30ish). Many terran even in low-master seem perplexed by this or do not take into account so some write-up about aggressive 2-base mutalisk should be done.
One common mistake terran makes is to not build turret/s near their barracks so the mutas can pick of units as they spawn.
On August 17 2013 02:30 Destructicon wrote: Awesome guide, very detailed and in depth, I already had somewhat of a good grasp on TvZ but this filled in a lot of the holes I still had and I'm very thankful for this.
I think I have one thing to point out though, it would be appreciated if you add another subtopic in the "Aggressive play" section about 2 base Muta rush. It should be relatively easy to deal with if you add turrets and place mines in strategic locations but it would probably help a lot of people out to know this and know when it is safe to land and secure their 3rd against this option.
So true, I play with a 2-base low-eco mutalisk strat against terran because if the terran go expo then hellions the marine count will suffer. Generally terran have like 6 marines when my mutalisk hits (9:00 minute mark, pops at 8:30ish). Many terran even in low-master seem perplexed by this or do not take into account so some write-up about aggressive 2-base mutalisk should be done.
One common mistake terran makes is to not build turret/s near their barracks so the mutas can pick of units as they spawn.
Yes, exactly this, the 2 base muta style is easily shut down if you build a turret near each mineral line + 1 at the all and 1 near the production facilities, and then put 2 mines near each turret. But this option is still deadly if unscouted and should be included in the guide.
On August 16 2013 19:38 Damian_SC2 wrote: "The Terran cry for a TL guide has finally been answered"............. Terran cry??? im not happy with that one.... shame on u!
Lol, was thinking the same thing. ^_^
Replacing "call" with "cry" would be more appropriate, I reckon.
Roach Warren on ~26-28 (7-12 Roaches) The idea and mindset for this defense is the same as the above. Keep in mind that this will hit a bit later but with more roaches and it is much less all-in for the Zerg. Some Zergs will add in burrow to this attack (both making it more all-in and a bit stronger).
Sorry but how does adding burrow make it more all-in? If anything it helps more when going into a longer game surely?
uh.... I hope many Terrans read this and do the mass tank vs roach/hydra. It's the only way to lose in the lategame against a roach/hydra based army, because once vipers are out, zerg just wins the deathball engagement.
This guide is crazy useful. I am trying to get back into the game after 4 months break, and I was just thinking I should try to get both my zerg and Terran back to diamond level. And lol I can't even beat gold leagues terran with my zerg and silver league zerg as terran. Then I read up this build wrote it down and faced a diamond Zerg and beat him while making huge mistakes at the start, losing 2 reapers for nothing I guess playing pure bio mkp style just helps me transition into bio mine style pretty well because of the fast paced micro needed
On August 19 2013 08:17 r1flEx wrote: imo, terrans need a tvp guide since no terran really dominates in that matchup
but great job on the guide!
Sadly, the writer of this guide needs better inspiration from the pro scene in order to write a guide of the same caliber as this one.
FYI Everyone, the first followup article to the guide has just started. Lets see how long it takes me to get it 100% done, edited by the TL Strat peeps, and posted.
On August 19 2013 18:49 MasterDrone wrote: Well, it's 5M: 4M + Mules
If we didn't already have an amazing banner that features the most evil looking medivac ever imagined I would change the name to 5M as your point is valid.
As a Terran I don't think we needed the TvZ guide. Seen it, Done it, Won it. I would still like to thank the TL staff for finaly putting out something Terran. Thanks!!!, as always you did a great job. Very analytical, and a lot of visual aids
( Also a special thanks to Monk for showing up everywere!! you rule bro! )
On the flipside, I would have liked to see a TvP guide, as (most) Terrans struggle against late game Protoss.
The guide mentions getting two widow mines after the first 6 hellions. Then what? Are people generally making their starport on the factory's reactor or do they continue making constant widow mines? Does anyone have strong opinions on this or is it just a style choice? I had been trying both before this guide and I really don't know which is better...
What are your thoughts?
It varries a lot. Some use the factory to make add one for raxes and others slam out more mines. I'll include more info on that in the first update. Very good question.
I'd also like to understand this more. I struggle with how many mines should be incorporated into the 11:30 push and whether I should be churning them out of the factory after the hellions or waiting a bit while I get other tech up. Anyone want to share their experiences?
The guide mentions getting two widow mines after the first 6 hellions. Then what? Are people generally making their starport on the factory's reactor or do they continue making constant widow mines? Does anyone have strong opinions on this or is it just a style choice? I had been trying both before this guide and I really don't know which is better...
What are your thoughts?
It varries a lot. Some use the factory to make add one for raxes and others slam out more mines. I'll include more info on that in the first update. Very good question.
I'd also like to understand this more. I struggle with how many mines should be incorporated into the 11:30 push and whether I should be churning them out of the factory after the hellions or waiting a bit while I get other tech up. Anyone want to share their experiences?
A simple answer is that very few are needed during the pre 2/2 phase. Marines are the most important to mass at that time. Keep in mind keeping the alive is extremely important too. Keeping them alive is why you have meds and mines at that time.
The guide mentions getting two widow mines after the first 6 hellions. Then what? Are people generally making their starport on the factory's reactor or do they continue making constant widow mines? Does anyone have strong opinions on this or is it just a style choice? I had been trying both before this guide and I really don't know which is better...
What are your thoughts?
It varries a lot. Some use the factory to make add one for raxes and others slam out more mines. I'll include more info on that in the first update. Very good question.
I'd also like to understand this more. I struggle with how many mines should be incorporated into the 11:30 push and whether I should be churning them out of the factory after the hellions or waiting a bit while I get other tech up. Anyone want to share their experiences?
A simple answer is that very few are needed during the pre 2/2 phase. Marines are the most important to mass at that time. Keep in mind keeping the alive is extremely important too. Keeping them alive is why you have meds and mines at that time.
yeah I was actually a bit confused that it always stated 2 widow mines after 6 hellions. The way I learned it from vods was after 6 hellion you lift factory and make another reactor while adding 2 more rax (onto the new open reactor and the other next to where you are making your next reactor. After that the factory makes another reactor which is when you put down your starport, then another reactor to start making widow mine. Maybe those were older matches though, If you don't make those 2 widow mines your first push with medivacs wont have them so I guess thats why.
On August 20 2013 13:08 AyaaLa wrote: I still only have 50% winrate in TvZ what am i dong wrong
Use your second hand.
Btw, this guide is a blessing for all Zerg players by making "official" the strongest form of Terran play, as it is clear it will only make the incoming WM nerf quicker, so thank you very much for this.
On August 20 2013 13:08 AyaaLa wrote: I still only have 50% winrate in TvZ what am i dong wrong
Use your second hand.
Btw, this guide is a blessing for all Zerg players by making "official" the strongest form of Terran play, as it is clear it will only make the incoming WM nerf quicker, so thank you very much for this.
I still think that WM nerf won't come. More likely another queen buff level of buff :D
On August 19 2013 01:12 Big J wrote: uh.... I hope many Terrans read this and do the mass tank vs roach/hydra. It's the only way to lose in the lategame against a roach/hydra based army, because once vipers are out, zerg just wins the deathball engagement.
Yea, I have struggled versus this from turtle-zergs who go slow 3-base roach-hydra into roach-hydra viper.
I'm only playing at high plat but the conclusion I've come to is that half a dozen tanks will enable me to hold my third. Beyond that, the tanks become expendable assuming I drop enough tech-lab rax as 3/3 raduers shred roach-hydra and counter ultras.
The difficulty I have against roach-hydra has been less the addition of vipers and more the ineffectiveness of marines in the mid-game.
Any others thoughts on this from any higher level players?
tl;dr The tanks become expendable once I have enough production to remax on rauder/rine/medi. A higher ratio of 3/3 marauder to marine does wonders versus roach/hydra but I need tanks to take and hold a third while I am getting my upgrades and additional rax.
On August 19 2013 01:12 Big J wrote: uh.... I hope many Terrans read this and do the mass tank vs roach/hydra. It's the only way to lose in the lategame against a roach/hydra based army, because once vipers are out, zerg just wins the deathball engagement.
Yea, I have struggled versus this from turtle-zergs who go slow 3-base roach-hydra into roach-hydra viper.
I'm only playing at high plat but the conclusion I've come to is that half a dozen tanks will enable me to hold my third. Beyond that, the tanks become expendable assuming I drop enough tech-lab rax as 3/3 raduers shred roach-hydra and counter ultras.
The difficulty I have against roach-hydra has been less the addition of vipers and more the ineffectiveness of marines in the mid-game.
Any others thoughts on this from any higher level players?
tl;dr The tanks become expendable once I have enough production to remax on rauder/rine/medi. A higher ratio of 3/3 marauder to marine does wonders versus roach/hydra but I need tanks to take and hold a third while I am getting my upgrades and additional rax.
Tanks are not good vs hive tech units. Tanks are good at killing lair tech armies.
The goal is not to fight against vipers, it is to get as many tanks as possible and hit at the last second before they get to that hive level. At that time, they have invested in tech that has not paid off yet AND they are on the unit comp that is very cost ineffective vs yours.
Macro very well and hit a timing at around 170 food with 6-8 tanks, if he is playing a standard well macro'd hydra roach style he will be trying to go hive and get vipers around then. I would make sure you are VERY aware of his hive timing. You want to be hitting while the hive is being made. If he stays on Lair for even longer and delays the hive a bit, you can sit back and wait for him to start the hive.
Saying half a dozen tanks is enough to hold your third and then talking about hive tech units indicates to me that you are even feeling this timing in action but not using it correctly. Just keep in mind that 6-8 tanks (and a well macro'd bio army with it) can actually destroy almost any roach based composition that lacks hive units. Abuse that fact and the fact that teching to hive already opens a timing window when alot of resources are being used on things that do not quickly provide a more powerful army right at the time of spending.
IN A NUTSHELL: Tanks are good at defending the early mid game aggression of roach/hydra and they scale perfectly into punishing that unit composition as the enemy transitions into to the counter to tank based play. Usually the timing to hit to accomplish that pre hive attack is around 170 food and/or 6-8 tanks. The timing is really determined by the zerg, though, so you must ensure that you are scouting for his hive timing and base the attack upon that.
The guide mentions getting two widow mines after the first 6 hellions. Then what? Are people generally making their starport on the factory's reactor or do they continue making constant widow mines? Does anyone have strong opinions on this or is it just a style choice? I had been trying both before this guide and I really don't know which is better...
What are your thoughts?
It varries a lot. Some use the factory to make add one for raxes and others slam out more mines. I'll include more info on that in the first update. Very good question.
I'd also like to understand this more. I struggle with how many mines should be incorporated into the 11:30 push and whether I should be churning them out of the factory after the hellions or waiting a bit while I get other tech up. Anyone want to share their experiences?
A simple answer is that very few are needed during the pre 2/2 phase. Marines are the most important to mass at that time. Keep in mind keeping the alive is extremely important too. Keeping them alive is why you have meds and mines at that time.
yeah I was actually a bit confused that it always stated 2 widow mines after 6 hellions. The way I learned it from vods was after 6 hellion you lift factory and make another reactor while adding 2 more rax (onto the new open reactor and the other next to where you are making your next reactor. After that the factory makes another reactor which is when you put down your starport, then another reactor to start making widow mine. Maybe those were older matches though, If you don't make those 2 widow mines your first push with medivacs wont have them so I guess thats why.
What you described is fairly standard play by Innovation. What I outlined in the guide is probably slightly outdated for high level professional tournament play but very ladder friendly. In plain terms, it is not as greedy as what you outlined but the safety bought by those 2 mines in the bo1 non-pro atmosphere of ladder is huge.
I think I would be doing people a favor if I included some more of the variations on how to do the transition there. There seems to be more than a few questions based on that portion.
On August 20 2013 13:04 Nightsz wrote: wtf....it says to do a 11:30 1/1 timing, but by then I have like 10 marines.. WTF? Am I doing something wrong
Post a replay. You are doing something hugely wrong.
Great Guide! have finally found a replacement for Bomber's 3CC before marine! I do have questions about how to deal with hive tech and ultra late game. It would seem that if the game stabilizes on even footing with zerg completing their tech tree, Terran needs to add another letter to their arsenal... I've seen Pros make the switch to Battle Cruiser, and Ravens especially on either defensive maps (akilon) or big maps (whirlwind). I know every game is situational, but in general what are the specific transitions and units to add in late game?
On August 22 2013 10:01 Doc Brawler wrote: Great Guide! have finally found a replacement for Bomber's 3CC before marine! I do have questions about how to deal with hive tech and ultra late game. It would seem that if the game stabilizes on even footing with zerg completing their tech tree, Terran needs to add another letter to their arsenal... I've seen Pros make the switch to Battle Cruiser, and Ravens especially on either defensive maps (akilon) or big maps (whirlwind). I know every game is situational, but in general what are the specific transitions and units to add in late game?
Add 3 starport + vikings if he switches to broodlords. 4rax techlab + marauders if he switches to ultralisks.
After the Zerg moves to hive tech, you need to establish if he is going for brood lords or for ultras. Ultras are by far the most common but you cannot assume. Against both ultras and brood lords, you need to begin dropping as much as possible. You require a heavy marauder count vs ultras and (at least) a second starport vs broods. Try to maximize the cost effectiveness of every engagement and keep up on your production. It is rare to need to go to a fifth base but do not let yourself be caught mining out your natural and third with no fifth established. On either four or five bases, you have the option to begin a transition to ravens/BCs/vikings (not necessarily all three, usually either BC/viking or raven/viking at first). Be careful in doing so as it does leave you a bit weaker until you have reached a certain critical mass. If you feel that you have a slight lead but his defense is too strong for you to kill him, you might be in an ideal situation to transition like this.
Now I know you might want more, and one day I would like to flesh that out too, but I want to nail other topics first.
This guide's advice on roach/hydra attacks has been so helpful! I am winning 50% more in my TvZ after having read this. The 2base and fake third base allin defense has helped me stay calm when I'm defending. It's so good.
Also, vaderseven, this is not even close to your real gift to terrans. I speak of course of the focused approach to perfecting mechanics. At top play, it's the terrans you see showing their mechanics in games. This is your TvZ gift, but the better gift was already given!
On August 25 2013 08:43 Danglars wrote: This guide's advice on roach/hydra attacks has been so helpful! I am winning 50% more in my TvZ after having read this. The 2base and fake third base allin defense has helped me stay calm when I'm defending. It's so good.
Also, vaderseven, this is not even close to your real gift to terrans. I speak of course of the focused approach to perfecting mechanics. At top play, it's the terrans you see showing their mechanics in games. This is your TvZ gift, but the better gift was already given!
That guide was more on teaching people how to learn and was me writting out the ideas that a friend of mine had used to perfect his own mechanics. It can help ANY race.
On August 16 2013 23:20 Sogetsu wrote: TBH, even if the guide is aweseome (wich it is), I don't like it, because as Terran I would prefer a new build or something more else, not the most-used mix on the entire metagame, from pros to noobs on Ladder.
Anyway good guide, but please try to do others more useful about builds or mixes that are harder to play, require more skill, or at least are different from the bread and butter on TvZ nowadays =/
There was no real content on TvZ in HotS and there is many Terran's out there that had no idea of how to play TvZ at all. It is also the single newest standard to the Terran race since WoL. Every other matchup has remained largely unchanged in terms of general strategy and timings.
Also the next article will be more pleasing to you. With this guide now posted I am a bit more free to look at very specific styles and players and compare their take on 4M and TvZ to the standard.
On August 17 2013 10:29 KingofGods wrote: Games are rarely won from the terran side before terran hits 3/3. By the time terran hits 3/3 the zerg better be not too far behind with their own 3/3 or they will lose more often then not. That's also the time when zerg start getting ultras + infestors.
Yes terrans can get advantages from a 2/2 attack when they are generally maxed but if you don't outright kill zerg off you will still have to deal with infestors and ultras unless the zerg stubbornly stays on lair tech which we see quite a bit. In fact a lot of times terran are simply trying to survive until they get 3/3. A midgame advantage could lead to something like quicker 3/3 upgrades and better econ for the late game, but you still have to beat that army where your control cannot afford to slip up.
You are completely wrong but you helped me to realize that I need clarify one thing for the future. I need to explain exactly the way you should be using a macro 4M style to win. This guide is a great explanation of how to macro up the correct forces, production, and tech. It also is a great guide for explaining the various timings that are created (on both sides of the matchup) and wha can happen at various stages of the game. It lacks the decision making elements and goals needed to understand how to use the builds and units in a way designed to win specific games. The next TvZ article is underway and I will be expanding greatly upon the concept of using 4M to win games by taking a look a specific flavor of 4M that one player loves to use.
In the future, please do not post statements as if they are facts of the matchup when they are very clearly based upon your own personal play and experience. Saying:
"Games are rarely won from the terran side before terran hits 3/3. By the time terran hits 3/3 the zerg better be not too far behind with their own 3/3 or they will lose more often then not. That's also the time when zerg start getting ultras + infestors."
comes off as a clear reference to your own games on ladder or in practice. I am going to have to request that you back any and every statement about how the matchup works with a professional replay or vod and a link to said reference. I am more than willing to entertain debate and re-look at things but I can't begin to understand how you can something like that and think that anyone that studies and watches alot of pro games will do anything shake their head.
I went ahead and bolded something that you should personally take to heart and relook at some pro games and think about hard.
If what you say is true then would it not be valid to make it a goal to control their ability to go Hive and 3/3? I am sure you have seen and heard of the "constant rally" that is used in this style. On many maps the real purpose of the constant rally is to force the Zerg to contantly remake gas heavy lair units in order to fight off wave after wave of 4m. By the time you have 3/3 you should have been trading marines constantly vs banes and mutas and never allowing either side to really max out so that your rally never has a pause and they never stop spending gas. Muta/Ling/Bling can only really break through a Terran if you allow them to max out on it so they can push you very far back. Some Terrans favor a modification of this play and go heavier tax count and try to trade right as maxing. Even these Terrans do not sit at max and they still committ to moves that secure the win by forcing the zerg tospend gas on units during themed which stunts their ability to get hive tech out. See Bomber vs Jeadogn for an example.
I go in depth into this exact idea in the next article but I wanted to address what you bring up as I do not want others to assume things based on your assumptions made from, most likely, your own experience and play.
On August 17 2013 02:30 Destructicon wrote: Awesome guide, very detailed and in depth, I already had somewhat of a good grasp on TvZ but this filled in a lot of the holes I still had and I'm very thankful for this.
I think I have one thing to point out though, it would be appreciated if you add another subtopic in the "Aggressive play" section about 2 base Muta rush. It should be relatively easy to deal with if you add turrets and place mines in strategic locations but it would probably help a lot of people out to know this and know when it is safe to land and secure their 3rd against this option.
Got ya covered. Next TL Strat T item will be a follow up article to this guide and that is one style that is making its way into that article.
On August 22 2013 10:01 Doc Brawler wrote: Great Guide! have finally found a replacement for Bomber's 3CC before marine! I do have questions about how to deal with hive tech and ultra late game. It would seem that if the game stabilizes on even footing with zerg completing their tech tree, Terran needs to add another letter to their arsenal... I've seen Pros make the switch to Battle Cruiser, and Ravens especially on either defensive maps (akilon) or big maps (whirlwind). I know every game is situational, but in general what are the specific transitions and units to add in late game?
This is another post that made me realize I did not talk about how to win enough in the guide. I will address this in the next article. Dealing with Hive and a transition to Ultras when they went for a standard ling/muta/bling mid game is about how you pick and choose where your army is and the tempo of the fights.
You also ask about Raven/BC. Well, I'll repeat what I said to another person!
Got ya covered. Next TL Strat T item will be a follow up article to this guide and that is one style that is making its way into that article.
For the Terrans that care, I am personally planning on doing two more TvZ articles with the next one already underway. After that I want to do a TvT guide. From there, I will maybe do one TvZ or TvT article and then a TvP guide.
If we are lucky I should have managed to start a Terran bible that covers every matchup by the sometime in late winter or early spring.
Hi, on IMBABuilds they give the following benchmarks for Innovation build (CC first): Benchmark: When you start Stimpack Research (@6:35ish), you should have 30 SCVs, 2 Marines, and 2 Hellions Benchmark: When your first Medivacs pop (@10:30ish), you should have around 65 SCVs, 13 Marines, 6 Hellions, 2 Medivacs, Stim, and +1/+1.
The first one is easy, but to me is seems the second is impossible, I think I am doing something wrong between 20 and 30 supply, on Imbabuilds the build goes like: 24 – Supply Depot 28 – @400 Mins, start 3rd Command Center, swap Factory onto Reactor, start constant Hellion production, and start Tech lab on Barracks But I got about 500 floating minerals already at 24, am I doing something wrong?
You should be using those extra minerals after your 3rd cc is started to complete your natural wall asap. This is to defend early speedling attacks, but also allows you to spend all your resources on your infrastructure after your 3rd cc is completed.
On August 28 2013 23:42 BBLN wrote: Hi, on IMBABuilds they give the following benchmarks for Innovation build (CC first): Benchmark: When you start Stimpack Research (@6:35ish), you should have 30 SCVs, 2 Marines, and 2 Hellions Benchmark: When your first Medivacs pop (@10:30ish), you should have around 65 SCVs, 13 Marines, 6 Hellions, 2 Medivacs, Stim, and +1/+1.
The first one is easy, but to me is seems the second is impossible, I think I am doing something wrong between 20 and 30 supply, on Imbabuilds the build goes like: 24 – Supply Depot 28 – @400 Mins, start 3rd Command Center, swap Factory onto Reactor, start constant Hellion production, and start Tech lab on Barracks But I got about 500 floating minerals already at 24, am I doing something wrong?
If you post a replay I will tell you what is going on to hold you back.
On August 28 2013 23:42 BBLN wrote: Hi, on IMBABuilds they give the following benchmarks for Innovation build (CC first): Benchmark: When you start Stimpack Research (@6:35ish), you should have 30 SCVs, 2 Marines, and 2 Hellions Benchmark: When your first Medivacs pop (@10:30ish), you should have around 65 SCVs, 13 Marines, 6 Hellions, 2 Medivacs, Stim, and +1/+1.
The first one is easy, but to me is seems the second is impossible, I think I am doing something wrong between 20 and 30 supply, on Imbabuilds the build goes like: 24 – Supply Depot 28 – @400 Mins, start 3rd Command Center, swap Factory onto Reactor, start constant Hellion production, and start Tech lab on Barracks But I got about 500 floating minerals already at 24, am I doing something wrong?
If you post a replay I will tell you what is going on to hold you back.
Replay vs Easy A.I: here I think that was my best game: 13 marines, 6 helions, +1/+1 ready at like 10:35, and almost combat shield, and yet I was like 5 scvs behind. Maxed on 13:20.
I watched the replay but I haven't found the cause
Edit: Played game on ladder, killed 50 drones but lost REPLAY How should I handle his attack with the whole army on my base? Scan a lot and move with mines?
Ty for this guide, been looking forward to a good one ever since i saw terran crush zerg time and again with this build. Imo zerg is playing it wrong going for ling bling muta. The muta specifically is terrible imo in this situation, as they get owned by both marines and mines and not to sure about the lings/banes either as the mine is a verry hard counter to anny melee unit. In wol you had marine tank and there the most important reason for having mutas was to be able to clean tanks, now the tank is replaced by the widdow mine and the mine not only can shoot back at the mutas,where the tank could not, it also is quiet efficient in this task.Imo zerg should do something different, pros have tried everything probably and i dont want to claim to have found the answer but i think the strongest reaction to mmmm is mass hydra and only hydra (no roaches added, though maybe complimented with ling bling , and infestor to counter the medivac healing) I think the hydra is better at everything then the muta in this situation, It is way better at dealing with mines because it outranges them, and it is also way more efficient in fighting marines then the muta.The only thing it would be worse then the muta would be against drops and harras but drops are not the reason zerg is loosing, and i never see zerg using their mutas to harras annyway, as they all are needed to barely survive the next terran push. Zerg is loosing to the endless parade of terran units because zerg trades with a slight disadvantage and is only defending. What does op think of zerg going mass hydra in this situation? would mmmm still be viable (i think it wouldnt) or would terran need to techswitch (for example tanks) to deal with the hydras and not get a disadvantage?
On August 28 2013 23:42 BBLN wrote: Hi, on IMBABuilds they give the following benchmarks for Innovation build (CC first): Benchmark: When you start Stimpack Research (@6:35ish), you should have 30 SCVs, 2 Marines, and 2 Hellions Benchmark: When your first Medivacs pop (@10:30ish), you should have around 65 SCVs, 13 Marines, 6 Hellions, 2 Medivacs, Stim, and +1/+1.
The first one is easy, but to me is seems the second is impossible, I think I am doing something wrong between 20 and 30 supply, on Imbabuilds the build goes like: 24 – Supply Depot 28 – @400 Mins, start 3rd Command Center, swap Factory onto Reactor, start constant Hellion production, and start Tech lab on Barracks But I got about 500 floating minerals already at 24, am I doing something wrong?
If you post a replay I will tell you what is going on to hold you back.
Replay vs Easy A.I: here I think that was my best game: 13 marines, 6 helions, +1/+1 ready at like 10:35, and almost combat shield, and yet I was like 5 scvs behind. Maxed on 13:20.
I watched the replay but I haven't found the cause
Edit: Played game on ladder, killed 50 drones but lost REPLAY How should I handle his attack with the whole army on my base? Scan a lot and move with mines?
Thank you for the help and amazing guide!
Ok you are doing the exact form outlined in the guide to a T and you are hitting the timings as such. That form of the mid game is a bit unit light and a bit quicker upgrades.
As for the small SCV difference the benchmark imba builds gives is for a CC on low ground version. Combo that with like maybe 10 seconds of total idle CC time and you can explain that.
You could actually have a bit more units because you are not using the factory to get mines. If you are going to do that, lift the factory up and build one of the 2nd and 3rd barracks on that reactor and have the factory build the reactor for the other of that set of two.
That will make your 2nd and 3rd Rax be reactored ALOT faster.
You arent really making macro mistakes to such a degree that you need to worry about it as your #1 concern.
On August 31 2013 02:38 Rassy wrote: Ty for this guide, been looking forward to a good one ever since i saw terran crush zerg time and again with this build. Imo zerg is playing it wrong going for ling bling muta. The muta specifically is terrible imo in this situation, as they get owned by both marines and mines and not to sure about the lings/banes either as the mine is a verry hard counter to anny melee unit. In wol you had marine tank and there the most important reason for having mutas was to be able to clean tanks, now the tank is replaced by the widdow mine and the mine not only can shoot back at the mutas,where the tank could not, it also is quiet efficient in this task.Imo zerg should do something different, pros have tried everything probably and i dont want to claim to have found the answer but i think the strongest reaction to mmmm is mass hydra and only hydra (no roaches added, though maybe complimented with ling bling , and infestor to counter the medivac healing) I think the hydra is better at everything then the muta in this situation, It is way better at dealing with mines because it outranges them, and it is also way more efficient in fighting marines then the muta.The only thing it would be worse then the muta would be against drops and harras but drops are not the reason zerg is loosing, and i never see zerg using their mutas to harras annyway, as they all are needed to barely survive the next terran push. Zerg is loosing to the endless parade of terran units because zerg trades with a slight disadvantage and is only defending. What does op think of zerg going mass hydra in this situation? would mmmm still be viable (i think it wouldnt) or would terran need to techswitch (for example tanks) to deal with the hydras and not get a disadvantage?
I havent fully decided if tanks are 100% needed vs hyrdas.
I tend to agree that muta/ling/bling is not a good answer. I think it is the bane that is the bad part of the answer though. Mutas serve a function just fine. Banes just are horriblely gas inefficient.
On August 28 2013 23:42 BBLN wrote: Hi, on IMBABuilds they give the following benchmarks for Innovation build (CC first): Benchmark: When you start Stimpack Research (@6:35ish), you should have 30 SCVs, 2 Marines, and 2 Hellions Benchmark: When your first Medivacs pop (@10:30ish), you should have around 65 SCVs, 13 Marines, 6 Hellions, 2 Medivacs, Stim, and +1/+1.
The first one is easy, but to me is seems the second is impossible, I think I am doing something wrong between 20 and 30 supply, on Imbabuilds the build goes like: 24 – Supply Depot 28 – @400 Mins, start 3rd Command Center, swap Factory onto Reactor, start constant Hellion production, and start Tech lab on Barracks But I got about 500 floating minerals already at 24, am I doing something wrong?
If you post a replay I will tell you what is going on to hold you back.
Replay vs Easy A.I: here I think that was my best game: 13 marines, 6 helions, +1/+1 ready at like 10:35, and almost combat shield, and yet I was like 5 scvs behind. Maxed on 13:20.
I watched the replay but I haven't found the cause
Edit: Played game on ladder, killed 50 drones but lost REPLAY How should I handle his attack with the whole army on my base? Scan a lot and move with mines?
Thank you for the help and amazing guide!
Ok you are doing the exact form outlined in the guide to a T and you are hitting the timings as such. That form of the mid game is a bit unit light and a bit quicker upgrades.
As for the small SCV difference the benchmark imba builds gives is for a CC on low ground version. Combo that with like maybe 10 seconds of total idle CC time and you can explain that.
You could actually have a bit more units because you are not using the factory to get mines. If you are going to do that, lift the factory up and build one of the 2nd and 3rd barracks on that reactor and have the factory build the reactor for the other of that set of two.
That will make your 2nd and 3rd Rax be reactored ALOT faster.
You arent really making macro mistakes to such a degree that you need to worry about it as your #1 concern.
Ill watch the ladder game later tonight.
Okay, thank you!
Quick question, many zergs on ladder started doing a roach-ling-bling push at 9:30, with like 10 roaches, 20 lings and 10 blings. I scouted it with my helions and tried to delay it by going to his base and force a return, threw 2 bunkers but before they even finished he destroyed my wall. Do you recommend to send SCV after CC to scout instead of Innovation's no-scout-until-helion?
On August 28 2013 23:42 BBLN wrote: Hi, on IMBABuilds they give the following benchmarks for Innovation build (CC first): Benchmark: When you start Stimpack Research (@6:35ish), you should have 30 SCVs, 2 Marines, and 2 Hellions Benchmark: When your first Medivacs pop (@10:30ish), you should have around 65 SCVs, 13 Marines, 6 Hellions, 2 Medivacs, Stim, and +1/+1.
The first one is easy, but to me is seems the second is impossible, I think I am doing something wrong between 20 and 30 supply, on Imbabuilds the build goes like: 24 – Supply Depot 28 – @400 Mins, start 3rd Command Center, swap Factory onto Reactor, start constant Hellion production, and start Tech lab on Barracks But I got about 500 floating minerals already at 24, am I doing something wrong?
If you post a replay I will tell you what is going on to hold you back.
Replay vs Easy A.I: here I think that was my best game: 13 marines, 6 helions, +1/+1 ready at like 10:35, and almost combat shield, and yet I was like 5 scvs behind. Maxed on 13:20.
I watched the replay but I haven't found the cause
Edit: Played game on ladder, killed 50 drones but lost REPLAY How should I handle his attack with the whole army on my base? Scan a lot and move with mines?
Thank you for the help and amazing guide!
Ok you are doing the exact form outlined in the guide to a T and you are hitting the timings as such. That form of the mid game is a bit unit light and a bit quicker upgrades.
As for the small SCV difference the benchmark imba builds gives is for a CC on low ground version. Combo that with like maybe 10 seconds of total idle CC time and you can explain that.
You could actually have a bit more units because you are not using the factory to get mines. If you are going to do that, lift the factory up and build one of the 2nd and 3rd barracks on that reactor and have the factory build the reactor for the other of that set of two.
That will make your 2nd and 3rd Rax be reactored ALOT faster.
You arent really making macro mistakes to such a degree that you need to worry about it as your #1 concern.
Ill watch the ladder game later tonight.
Okay, thank you!
Quick question, many zergs on ladder started doing a roach-ling-bling push at 9:30, with like 10 roaches, 20 lings and 10 blings. I scouted it with my helions and tried to delay it by going to his base and force a return, threw 2 bunkers but before they even finished he destroyed my wall. Do you recommend to send SCV after CC to scout instead of Innovation's no-scout-until-helion?
I like to scout after my gas starts in a CC first opening just so I can see the initial ordering of buildings from Zerg (hatch/pool/gas timings) and to check for fast 3rd base. Getting that inforamtion will let me know what corners to cut or what things are safe to blind prepare for*.
Keep in mind the biggest single warning flag of aggression you can possibly see is a Zerg gathering more than 100 gas before Zergling speed is done. Any sign of that usually means some kind of Hatch level aggression is coming.
Also, that particular attack is a brutal one. Two extra bunkers is not enough. I like to have five+ total bunkers.
Safe to Blind Prepare- If you see Hatch Gas Pool out of Zerg it can be a good read to assume that there is aggression coming. When I see this out of a ladder Zerg I will often ensure my wall is up by 6:00 and then I will get a 2nd bunker near my Natural CC. Is this for sure a good move that is going to pay off directly? No! He could get speed and pull out of gas and macro HARD out of that. I just have played enough ladder to know that when I see X that Y has a decent chance to show up. I really encourage you to play around and find small reactions like that that help you to win a great deal more games vs all ins.
Some possible ways to play safer than normal:
2nd Bunker after 6:30 Barracks #2 and #3 before Eng Bays Only 4 Hellions before Mines (great vs non ling based play) 8+ Hellions before Mines (great vs ling based play) Fast Marauder while hellions making (great vs Roach, many do this vs any fast gas Zerg)
These are very common safety measures I see. When ever you lose to an aggressive play or take more dmg than you should, watch the replay after wards and pause at every moment that you see something of the enemy (when you scout or when he shows units or pokes). REALLY consider what you see. Mentally note that what happens in the replay next can happen in future games that have similar looks.
It takes alot of games but these kind of reactions do start to become 2nd nature and will make you feel ALOT better about your macro play.
On August 20 2013 13:08 AyaaLa wrote: I still only have 50% winrate in TvZ what am i dong wrong
Use your second hand.
Btw, this guide is a blessing for all Zerg players by making "official" the strongest form of Terran play, as it is clear it will only make the incoming WM nerf quicker, so thank you very much for this.
It's hilarious how much you can get away with as long as you are complaining about Terran lol. Any of the posts like this in the protoss 2 base pvt thread were temp banned at the speed of warp ins.
Nice to see some responses, glad to see you are working on follow up articles and brand new ones. I still have to ask though, will you do a guide, or is there a plan to make guides on how to engage and properly fight?
When watching the pros play it seems easy to overlook a lot of small elements of their play that leads them to victory, they don't just mindlessly select everything and move out, there is methodology to how they move out, how they position and how they go about fighting, and I feel like its one of the harder things to pick up on, and probably one of the harder parts to master as well.
On September 04 2013 06:27 Destructicon wrote: Nice to see some responses, glad to see you are working on follow up articles and brand new ones. I still have to ask though, will you do a guide, or is there a plan to make guides on how to engage and properly fight?
When watching the pros play it seems easy to overlook a lot of small elements of their play that leads them to victory, they don't just mindlessly select everything and move out, there is methodology to how they move out, how they position and how they go about fighting, and I feel like its one of the harder things to pick up on, and probably one of the harder parts to master as well.
You know what, I am putting the finishing touches on my follow TvZ article tonight.
Your wish is my command.
@BBLN: I'll watch that ladder replay tonight I forgot to do so the other day.
On September 04 2013 06:27 Destructicon wrote: Nice to see some responses, glad to see you are working on follow up articles and brand new ones. I still have to ask though, will you do a guide, or is there a plan to make guides on how to engage and properly fight?
When watching the pros play it seems easy to overlook a lot of small elements of their play that leads them to victory, they don't just mindlessly select everything and move out, there is methodology to how they move out, how they position and how they go about fighting, and I feel like its one of the harder things to pick up on, and probably one of the harder parts to master as well.
You know what, I am putting the finishing touches on my follow TvZ article tonight.
Your wish is my command.
@BBLN: I'll watch that ladder replay tonight I forgot to do so the other day.
This season I feel lost in TvZ, last season I had like 60% winrate in plat,but now in diamond about 30% (Looks like every season my best MU changes, now my TvP is strongest :O) Sometimes I am just afraid to push and feel like my split is not good enough and blings will destroy my army, so I find my self turtling between my 3rd and fourth. I am trying to drop a lot, but sometimes I just feel I am losing a lot more resources than him.
I'm looking forward to the section about engagements too Thank you for your hard work and dedication
On September 04 2013 06:27 Destructicon wrote: Nice to see some responses, glad to see you are working on follow up articles and brand new ones. I still have to ask though, will you do a guide, or is there a plan to make guides on how to engage and properly fight?
When watching the pros play it seems easy to overlook a lot of small elements of their play that leads them to victory, they don't just mindlessly select everything and move out, there is methodology to how they move out, how they position and how they go about fighting, and I feel like its one of the harder things to pick up on, and probably one of the harder parts to master as well.
You know what, I am putting the finishing touches on my follow TvZ article tonight.
Your wish is my command.
@BBLN: I'll watch that ladder replay tonight I forgot to do so the other day.
This season I feel lost in TvZ, last season I had like 60% winrate in plat,but now in diamond about 30% (Looks like every season my best MU changes, now my TvP is strongest :O) Sometimes I am just afraid to push and feel like my split is not good enough and blings will destroy my army, so I find my self turtling between my 3rd and fourth. I am trying to drop a lot, but sometimes I just feel I am losing a lot more resources than him.
I'm looking forward to the section about engagements too Thank you for your hard work and dedication
Dont commit to playing the style incorrectly vs what the zerg is out of fear of miss-micro. Your splits will only improve if you try to do them.
On September 05 2013 01:50 Pirfiktshon wrote: I didn't see Polt's Reaper Expand in this description its the defensive map control build for 3cc. Here is the Listing for it from Day9 http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-621-polts-tvz-amazingness/
The mid game is the same. The opening from that is a wonderfully modified opening. It is a reaper expand into fast starport before 3rd CC. Including every variation on openings and midgame would leave me with a guide that would be about 100 pages long.
I kid not!
This guide covers the two single most common openings and the most common trends in the mid game.
In other news, the first draft of the followup 4M article is now done. I focused on a player and his version of 4M and showcase a detailed look at positioning and how that player uses a unique build order to accomplish his goals.
I also look very deeply at how 4M is intended to win games as this current guide is a bit light on that specific subject.
On September 07 2013 15:55 XiaoJoyce- wrote: So it is Marine Marauder Medivac & Mines~
I always thought it is Marine Mines Medivac and the last 1 is maybe Mule?
Because I always never see marauder.
Check out alot of replays in the guide. Many pros do get marauders at some point in the game. Every Terran adds them if the Zerg makes it to Hive and techs to Ultras.
It depends on the playstyle of the Terran but MANY Terran like to go for a 10 marine and 1-4 marauder rally instead of the more modern korean trend of the moment to rally 12 marines.
4M has always stood for Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Mine. You can find examples of casters such as Day 9 and Artosis using it in such a fashion since the release of HotS.
Are tanks not viable anymore? I'm getting owned by ling/baneling/muta. It's ridiculous how strong it is now. What am I supposed to do? I feel like I'm playing on the backfoot the whole game.
On September 09 2013 05:20 RoarMan wrote: Are tanks not viable anymore? I'm getting owned by ling/baneling/muta. It's ridiculous how strong it is now. What am I supposed to do? I feel like I'm playing on the backfoot the whole game.
You should be going bio/mine not bio/tanks. bio/tank isn't very good, bio/mine is way stronger, easier to use and a lot more mobile.
On September 09 2013 05:20 RoarMan wrote: Are tanks not viable anymore? I'm getting owned by ling/baneling/muta. It's ridiculous how strong it is now. What am I supposed to do? I feel like I'm playing on the backfoot the whole game.
???
Bio Mine is strong vs that composition to the point that many pros consider the matchup to be Terran favored. The entire matchup revolves around those unit comps and Terran is the one coming out ahead!
Why arent pros getting more mines? It feels like they always only have a maximum of 10, why not 20? Seems a lot stronger to me to have less marines and more mines.
You will seem them go over ten many times. The real strenghth of bio mine is the synergy of mines protecting marines retreat paths and marines preventing single units from triggering the mines. With that in mind, its never good to be too high or low on either. You want the mix.
Hi guys, I'm a part of a french team and we translated this awesome guide in french. We've done that because French are not good in english ( look at my english skills... )
On September 10 2013 02:05 Aeromi wrote: Hi guys, I'm a part of a french team and we translated this awesome guide in french. We've done that because French are not good in english ( look at my english skills... )
On September 10 2013 02:05 Aeromi wrote: Hi guys, I'm a part of a french team and we translated this awesome guide in french. We've done that because French are not good in english ( look at my english skills... )
Wonderful guide Thanks for the clarity and decisiveness it really helps Also the VOD linking is genius I can't imagIne how long you spent on this Keep it up!
You should be going bio/mine not bio/tanks. bio/tank isn't very good, bio/mine is way stronger, easier to use and a lot more mobile.
I think mines are preferred over tanks because no matter what zergs will have at some point some mutas... And since the hots buff mutas are really really good so you can't invest your 'tech' unit into something that cannot kill muta.
You should be going bio/mine not bio/tanks. bio/tank isn't very good, bio/mine is way stronger, easier to use and a lot more mobile.
I think mines are preferred over tanks because no matter what zergs will have at some point some mutas... And since the hots buff mutas are really really good so you can't invest your 'tech' unit into something that cannot kill muta.
bio/tank is.....different. Biotank is more timings push/deathball oriented where biomine is mini pushes to widdle the zergie down. Biomine is better imo. 99% of all masters agree. Edit: Is it just me or is the font of the thread main post too big? If so It should be scaled down.
There will be a small update in the near future in the form of a FAQ.
Here is a small preview:
Question 1:
Innovation does his transition to the mid game slightly differently than what is listed in this guide. What is the build order for that and what should I know about it? Credit for this question goes to U_G_L_Y of www.teamliquid.net
Answer: Innovation does a standard opening (he does both the Reaper FE and the CC Rax Gas). Upon confirmation of a macro play out of the Zerg (his hellions scout a third hatchery, no suspicious gas activity that isn't accounted for, normal unit counts, etc) he will do the following after completing his first six hellions and before any mine production:
Lift factory Reactor at factory & barracks at old reactor & barracks near new factory location (The factory will lift when it is done making this reactor and the barracks built nearby will take the reactor) 2x engineering bay (start +1/+1 asap) 2x refinery @start of +1/+1: starport and lift factory to start another reactor that will be used by this starport 2x barracks @stim done: combat shields @30%-50% of +1/+1: armory @~12:00: factory (tech lab asap for mine upgrade) 3x barracks
Innovation's transition is a very optimized variation on the standard and has the goal of having the most possible units in a useful combination ready to go when all of the upgrades kick in. It relies on good scouting information to confirm that no early game or early mid game attack from the Zerg will be used to try and end things prematurely as it has less production during a short window in order to have more production shortly afterwards. When +1/+1, stim, and combat shields are done you should have at least 16 marines and two medivacs. This force is powerful, well upgraded, mobile, and safe. This allows Innovation the luxury of being aggressive on creep (usually to kill tumors) and safely load up and boost out at the first sign of a fight.
In a straight up macro game, this is the preferred modern version of the transition into 4M out of a fast expand opening.
I have already selected several questions from this thread that will be answered in the FAQ but please feel free to post questions now to give me more ammo!
I was having problems getting the Medivacs out in time for the 11:30 benchmarks. Turns out I was starting Marauders too early and spending too much on some extra Widow Mines. I found out by modelling the build in sc2planner. Maybe it's useful for someone else too:
On October 06 2013 06:24 BugRoger wrote: I was having problems getting the Medivacs out in time for the 11:30 benchmarks. Turns out I was starting Marauders too early and spending too much on some extra Widow Mines. I found out by modelling the build in sc2planner. Maybe it's useful for someone else too:
The modern trends are to forgo marauders unless you feel they are needed in response to some kind of aggression from the Zerg that hits before you have medivacs and +1/+1. The same is true for mines. The post above yours that previews the soon to be finished FAQ for the guide outlines the most modern version of the build order which uses the factory to make reactors for barracks and starport once the first 6 hellions are done. With that version of the build, it is very easy to have 16 marines, stim, combat shields, and 2 medivacs by the 11:30 benchmark and you should be able to hit 130+ food if you opened CC first and suffered no setbacks.
On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote: Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately.
Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm).
On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote: Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately.
Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm).
I've seen thors added to a lot of 4M games where zerg goes for upwards of 30 mutas, but the most interesting use I can remember is Hyvaa vs. Gumiho in the most recent GSTL match, where Gumiho made somewhere around 7 thors in combination with MMM (no mines) when Hyvaa transitioned into an ultra-based army.
On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote: Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately.
Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm).
I've seen thors added to a lot of 4M games where zerg goes for upwards of 30 mutas, but the most interesting use I can remember is Hyvaa vs. Gumiho in the most recent GSTL match, where Gumiho made somewhere around 7 thors in combination with MMM (no mines) when Hyvaa transitioned into an ultra-based army.
I will look into it but in that game in particular it bears mentioning that was not a 4M game, not a 4M transition and not a 4M game plan for later stages.
But if there is 4M games with thors im looking into it asap!
I have a question re something that I don't think is adequately dealt with in the (otherwise excellent) guide. What is the correct response to a zerg that goes pool before hatch and takes gas (zerg could even go gas/pool/hatch in that order)? Especially if you open CC first (high ground or low ground) the issue is that, even if you scout with the SCV that makes the first supply depot, you are floating nearly 400 minerals by the time you see no hatch. ie you can't really decide not to go CC first at this point, you have to stick with it even though it can get quite hairy.
You don't know whether he's going speedlings/banelings/roaches. So a decision is needed about where you build the bunker. Is it correct to build it on the low ground (say close to the ramp between the main & natural); or do you build it at the entrance to your main (and presumably lift the 2nd CC back into your main somewhere)? I think I'm right in saying that you can have about 6 roaches turning up at around 5.50... at which point you could have 2 marines in a bunker and not much more... I could probably dig out a few replays if necessary but I wondered whether there was a "correct" response eg just turtle in your main with a bunker at the entrance....
On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote: Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately.
Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm).
I've seen thors added to a lot of 4M games where zerg goes for upwards of 30 mutas, but the most interesting use I can remember is Hyvaa vs. Gumiho in the most recent GSTL match, where Gumiho made somewhere around 7 thors in combination with MMM (no mines) when Hyvaa transitioned into an ultra-based army.
I will look into it but in that game in particular it bears mentioning that was not a 4M game, not a 4M transition and not a 4M game plan for later stages.
But if there is 4M games with thors im looking into it asap!
I think in one of the MMA vs Jaedong games just in the Season 3 Finals MMA used a thor.
I have a question about early game aggression from the zerg (which is similar to the (unanswered) question I posted on the first of these guides recently.
Let's say the terran goes CC first (high ground or low ground) but scouts the zerg early. The terran scouts hatch first from the zerg but then early gas thereafter. I believe the correct response is to make sure you've walled off your natural by just before 6 mins in order to prevent a speedling rush from surrounding your bunker and killing it...
However... if the zerg is actually going for a v quick baneling bust, is it actually correct to wall in? I find that the timing of the first hellions is v close to the arrival of the banelings so you get very little warning this is coming. You could scan and hope to see whether the zerg took extra gas after the 100 for speed but, unless you see the baneling nest, you don't know what the extra gas is for. The issue I find is that, if it is the baneling bust, it will almost always kill the bunker and, although you can pull your hellions back to your main and evacuate the scvs from your natural (if you are quick), the zerg has completely free rein over the supply depot wall. ie they get to kill 4 supply depots for nothing - which, even if they do no other damage (which they will), is terrible for the terran (even if the terran is good enough not to get supply blocked).
It got me thinking that perhaps there is a way I don't know to tell whether it is the speedling rush or a baneling bust?
On October 17 2013 19:51 Aunvilgod wrote: Did you already talk about mixing in Thors? If not, what do you think about them? They seem to have become quite standard in the matchup lately.
Thors do not really combine well with the 4M style. I think they do not fit very well with the mobile and replaceable nature of the 4M army. If you have seen some professional games with Thors being added to 4M games then post them up as I haven't seen them yet (but I do work alot right now so I don't get to watch every game atm).
I've seen thors added to a lot of 4M games where zerg goes for upwards of 30 mutas, but the most interesting use I can remember is Hyvaa vs. Gumiho in the most recent GSTL match, where Gumiho made somewhere around 7 thors in combination with MMM (no mines) when Hyvaa transitioned into an ultra-based army.
I will look into it but in that game in particular it bears mentioning that was not a 4M game, not a 4M transition and not a 4M game plan for later stages.
But if there is 4M games with thors im looking into it asap!
So is this still reccomended with the recent tank buff and mine nerf? What's the current "best" style? I've seen both used, just mine style seems weaker. Most terrans seem to be adding tanks now and it's looking closer to WoL style TvZ.
On November 21 2013 15:56 manicshock wrote: So is this still reccomended with the recent tank buff and mine nerf? What's the current "best" style? I've seen both used, just mine style seems weaker. Most terrans seem to be adding tanks now and it's looking closer to WoL style TvZ.
I think this is the case, tanks might take over mines. Vader has a FAQ that he wrote, but feels that due to the change its not worth posting anymore. I will let him know your concerns and see if he can answer them in the next day or two. In the meantime I want to know if you guys would still like to see his FAQ about 4M, it unfortunately was being worked on during a busy time and it got put on the backburner a little too long. For that I'm sorry.
On November 22 2013 06:48 Desive wrote: I really like the addition of thors that almost all terran players are starting to do vs ling bling muta
I agree that Thor are good but I want to see if they remain the answer to mutas in 4m vs zero or if a larger overall change towards mech with upgraded thors being the center piece of the ground army vs any zerg that isn't going a ground focused lair roach army.
It feels like mech with fast double armory into fast(ish) sky terran army is stronger than a 4m 3/3 timing attack based game plan in the current patch.
I want to see what top korean terrans do in the next wcs season do before I say what is really best at the highest level.
On January 16 2014 02:45 0excalibur wrote: This is probably one of the best guides I ever read. Thank you so much! They need to make something like this for other matchups as well!
There is! Actually I felt that Terran guides were lacking *(in terms of numbers) comapred to the Protoss and Zerg guides featured in TL until this guide came along.
Parts of it are becoming outdated, but that comprises the minority. The openings and midgame ideas suggested are still widely applicable in normal ladder games.
A lot of Terrans have started to switch back to hellion/banshee builds (before 3rd CC) in TvZ now, which is much more robust vs allins and gives you the potential to do game ending damage. This build (3CC -> 2 ebays) is still used regularly though.
Also, this guide was written before the mine nerf so the lategame parts are outdated, since Terrans will now use their 2nd factory for thors rather than mines in most games.
I am fiddeling around with doing exactly this, but going starport-banshee rather than early stim. 3rd CC on normal timing and still 2 fast ebays. For me it is good, as the helions + banshee packs a punch, and it will deflect most roach attacks. For me it is good not to have to change too much in my opening.
On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote: Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable?
I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically.
Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own.
I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least.
On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote: Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable?
I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically.
Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own.
I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least.
Skipping Hellions for mines is never a good idea, they are your map control and soft contain, if he built roaches for your hellions/reaper, that is a good thing. A healthy hellion count also lets you take your third safer.
On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote: Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable?
I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically.
Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own.
I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least.
Skipping Hellions for mines is never a good idea, they are your map control and soft contain, if he built roaches for your hellions/reaper, that is a good thing. A healthy hellion count also lets you take your third safer.
I get what you are saying. But in plat and gold before, usually seeing a few roaches means more are coming. I will take your advice though and throw the 6 hellions back into the build, I like the idea of using them to help get my 3rd up.
There's a reason people don't build roaches like that though in pro play - because it's bad. When you say "but in plat and gold" etc, remember that 99% of that stuff only works because their opponents don't know how to scout+recognize+abuse stuff :D
On February 06 2014 02:11 Cyro wrote: There's a reason people don't build roaches like that though in pro play - because it's bad. When you say "but in plat and gold" etc, remember that 99% of that stuff only works because their opponents don't know how to scout+recognize+abuse stuff :D
"Bad" referencing... Isn't everyone bad then? You can always compare to a higher level and call something/someone bad..
It's definitely important to scout, etc. Something I have been working on for sure. I will add hellions to my build again so I can scout easier, and begin mine production after 6 hellions. For me, its the best way to deal with a swarmy zerg who rushes in with banes when I push out, otherwise without any AOE I get crushed hard.
On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote: Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable?
I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically.
Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own.
I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least.
Skipping Hellions for mines is never a good idea, they are your map control and soft contain, if he built roaches for your hellions/reaper, that is a good thing. A healthy hellion count also lets you take your third safer.
Not only that, defensive Widow Mines are the definition of bad. The only good defensive Factory tech would be Tanks vs ground and Thors (+Turrets) vs Mutas.
With Hellions, you can see when he moves out with the Roaches (as opposed to simply defending and zoning your Hellions), and if he does move out, you can threaten a runby while you drop 3-4 Bunkers at home and pull SCVs ready to repair.
Then again, you can go 6-8 Hellions into 2-3 Banshees, be 100% safe from Roaches, and STILL have map control and a fairly quick third. Better yet, you can transition to either Bio or Mech.
On February 05 2014 12:46 Watchmaker wrote: Sorry for the noob question, and for (potentially) resurrecting a dead thread, but is this build still viable?
I was really struggling for a while because zergs were ready for the hellion/reaper harass with a few roaches and I would fall behind economically.
Now, I've just gone straight for widow mines and focused more on a stronger mid-game push to kill off the zergs 3rd, whilst taking my own.
I'm a plat scrub though, so I wouldn't infer that much, but yes it still works for me, the 4M part of the build at least.
Skipping Hellions for mines is never a good idea, they are your map control and soft contain, if he built roaches for your hellions/reaper, that is a good thing. A healthy hellion count also lets you take your third safer.
Not only that, defensive Widow Mines are the definition of bad. The only good defensive Factory tech would be Tanks vs ground and Thors (+Turrets) vs Mutas.
With Hellions, you can see when he moves out with the Roaches (as opposed to simply defending and zoning your Hellions), and if he does move out, you can threaten a runby while you drop 3-4 Bunkers at home and pull SCVs ready to repair.
Then again, you can go 6-8 Hellions into 2-3 Banshees, be 100% safe from Roaches, and STILL have map control and a fairly quick third. Better yet, you can transition to either Bio or Mech.
Predicated on the fact your control is good enough to accomplish such a task. I'll give the banshees a shot too, been reading up on that. Thanks!
Thanks for all the feedback! So would inclusion of the banshees be something like Factory -> switch with reactor on barracks -> Tech lab on barracks -> second gas -> Starport and switch onto the tech lab on the barracks?
Additionally, (sorry again for the question) but would the thors be the answer for mutas when I move out? And should I begin incorporating them after I establish my third or before hand?
On February 06 2014 06:20 Watchmaker wrote: Thanks for all the feedback! So would inclusion of the banshees be something like Factory -> switch with reactor on barracks -> Tech lab on barracks -> second gas -> Starport and switch onto the tech lab on the barracks?
Additionally, (sorry again for the question) but would the thors be the answer for mutas when I move out? And should I begin incorporating them after I establish my third or before hand?
Because of the Mine nerf, Bio Mine isn't the go to composition anymore. According to individual preference, players are now mixing in Siege Tanks, Hellbats or Thors, sometimes even going pure Marine/Marauder bio. Also, Hellion/Banshee into 3 cc is also a very common strategy. If you want the build orders, check out some recent pro VODs or replays. I believe there are quite a few of those from Proleague, among others.
EPT
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